Flugel Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here.... What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength..... But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here.... First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there.... And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches? Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..) Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so...... Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan? Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want? And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate.... So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine.. If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed... Fourth: Our High investments are not performing?...you mean like Dwayne Bowe?....Rob Housler?.....Ben Tate?....Paul Kruger?....Johnny Manziel?......Justin Gilbert?.....cause I dont think these guys are PETTINES fault, yet he's taking the heat for them....isnt he?...where is Farmer?... Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year? Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes) Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)... Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)... So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault.... So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep".... Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone..... Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault?????? So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking.... There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way... Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad.... So.....if I was Haslem..... First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over.... Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed.... So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him..... But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in)..... And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"...... Thanks Mud - you did a great job with that. As we've both said, we have a lot of common ground in that Farmer sucks and Jimmy has made tons of mistakes. Farmer needs to be gone yesterday and he's still here so this is Jimmy making another mistake. There are no alternatives to the owner so we have to hope he expedites this learning curve we're gagging on. I'm not going to pretend to know what he does under the roof at the franchise headquarters. As for Pettine flying solo - that's what Ken Whisenhunt did in TN without a FO or ownership holding any press conferences all the while shit was hitting fan here in Nashville. Then, they just fired him. Any wonder why they're the ones competing with us for the first overall pick in 2016? A lot of people here in Nashville felt like you do about it while others argued on the radio that this is what one signs up for when they choose an organization in chaos. Prior to hiring Pettine and promoting Farmer, Jimmy got some angry feedback that anyone could have heard regarding the 3 Stooges. Looks to me like he's trying to show those that spoke up for a larger portion of the fanbase he isn't going to interrupt the show until the curtains drop on the season. If you don't like Pettine being a scapegoat for Jimmy and Farmer - it isn't like he's been tossing his inexperienced DC a life-jacket for Pettine's/Ryan's very flawed Defensive Scheme. Then again, it's what O'Neil signed up for when he agreed to accepting the position. Leaders of men shouldn't require excuses or hiding places. Not for nothing, we started 2014 out 7-4 when Manziel was choosing to be a party animal over football so how bad of a decision was it to bring in a QB capable of better passer ratings and 3rd down efficiency than Brian Hoyer via Josh McCown? If only our rookie OC (selected by Pettine) could have found a better way to protect his veteran passer in the pocket or provide the QB with better balance than 31st ranked running game behind Thomas (3rd pick overall w/ 8 Pro Bowls, Bitonio (2nd rd pick), Mack (1st rd pick), Schwartz (2nd rd pick) and Greco (coming off career best season in 2014). Hard to buy the lack of talent & nothing to work with upfront argument more than the bad choice of Moeller as the position coach. Here's why I don't think Pettine is our answer: 1) Choice of flawed scheme and it's the only one he knows and has a comfort with. 2) Choice of coaches developing young players and vets into their systems. When players begin to perceive these systems as flawed (also shaking out in Buffalo) - they question square pegs round holes while listening to we just have to work harder. Anyone ever want to consider an alternative like we need to work smarter not harder? Watch the Special Teams in each of the last 2 games. If that's not convenient, check out the trend of 5 straight games of Cleveland giving up more than 30 points. Did Sean Payton keep or fire such a flawed scheme with Ryan origins? 3) I need to see more than just Schwartz, Benjamin and Barnidge have improved since 2014. I COULD have said McCown if he was able to survive. I COULD have said Manziel but that brief light at the end of the tunnel became the headlamp of another oncoming train. 4) I'd like to know what's really going on with Joe Haden and if there's any correlation to him not wanting to jeopardize the rest of his career constantly taking on a bunch of RBs turning the corner - unobstructed with a full head of steam. Looks to me like Haden knows how to fail the concussion test every week as one of the only guys in the league unable to overcome a concussion within 8 weeks. Do I blame him if it is his way of protesting a scheme that doesn't belong in the NFL? His salary tells me I should blame him but concern for his future tells me I shouldn't blame him. Alternative? Head Coach needs to tune into what is going on all around him or it becomes easier than ever to lose veterans and team leaders. 5) Pettine was the one assuring everyone he and Farmer had a terrific working relationship by pointing out how much input/say he and his staff had for the draft. Sounds like his staff had just as much or more say than his scouts. O'Neil's presser before and after the draft also made that clear when he said Shelton/Orchard were helping our Oline Coaches rule out many offensive line prospects. Sounds like a lot of say from the Pett shop boys IMO. I seem to recall a big fondness for T West came from the coaching staff. If Pettine was thinking about predicating the success of his defense off the corner position (like he had from Revis and Cromartie in NY) guess what position we ended up drafting first in 2014? Cornerback. 6) Pettine doesn't want to count on rookies in important places; but he hired a rookie OC and a rookie DC. Shanny wasn't bad if you like a Cinderella story with an early midnight (also unfolding in ATL as we speak). When his dad ran the zbs - he had Alex Gibb on staff/consultant, which came in handy once enough teams had it on film in order to get it to the next level. More specifically, experience mattered come time for game day/second half adjustments. 7) Pettine doesn't like heavy partying off the field especially if it's a QB/leader; but he chose that type of history as his Offensive Line Coach? What kind of message does this send to the team in terms of consistency? And why did he okay Manziel's first trip to Vegas if he was so concerned about his partying? I heard his presser when he clarified Manziel asked for his permission and he granted it since he had exceeded their expectations at the time on www.clevelandbrowns.com. 8) 2nd year of a scheme in quest of continuity should show more playing faster than playing confused. I'm seeing more playing confused which is why that statistics reflecting that doesn't surprise me. 9) Talent argument? Since the 2015 season started, which of these veterans here before Pettine - look to be playing up to up their standard? Joe Thomas? Alex Mack? John Greco? Paul Kruger? Desmond Bryant? Joe Haden (before his injury)? Tashaun Gipson? John Hughes? Bark Mingo? How about younger players like Bitonio? The Crow that was averaging 5.4 yards a carry 8-10 weeks into 2014? Is Gabriel better or worse? K'Wuan Williams? Gilbert? Kirksey? 10) Does a 31st ranked running game, 32 ranked Defense and undisciplined Special Teams really buy tenure? If any of us performed like that at work - we'd be in charge of the broom closet. Yeah, I get the Manziel stuff sucks but QB hasn't really been this team's nightmare in 2015. That said, asking any QB in this league to overcome the margin of error this defense and running game sentences the passer to every week has been the ultimate show stopper. The 1 week we played ideal sic em, sock em and sack em - we rathoused TN by double digits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Well Fluges....I guess we have completely different perspectives....and I prefer NOT to make broad assumptions, while many here choose to do the opposite......usually you are so sensible, but I think you are working overtime to try to peg this on Pettine, when that isnt the case.... Here's why I don't think Pettine is our answer: 1) Choice of flawed scheme and it's the only one he knows and has a comfort with. No one has shown me this.....not one person has been able to explain the change in scheme or how its made us worse....lots of pointing to it, but zero explaination....Ive studied the crap out of it and my take is the pass defense let us down and the LB's have played poorly.....watch the games and I can show you LOTS of plays we lost due to lack of talent and effort(lots)....but have yet to see where scheme is at fault..... 2) Choice of coaches developing young players and vets into their systems. When players begin to perceive these systems as flawed (also shaking out in Buffalo) - they question square pegs round holes while listening to we just have to work harder. Anyone ever want to consider an alternative like we need to work smarter not harder? Watch the Special Teams in each of the last 2 games. If that's not convenient, check out the trend of 5 straight games of Cleveland giving up more than 30 points. Did Sean Payton keep or fire such a flawed scheme with Ryan origins? Square peg, round hole.....yet another cliche I keep hearing.....I dont care what Sean Payton did, it's not our situation here(same with Buffalo and their crying).....those guys in Buffalo WEREN'T crying when Pett was there....were they? 3) I need to see more than just Schwartz, Benjamin and Barnidge have improved since 2014. I COULD have said McCown if he was able to survive. I COULD have said Manziel but that brief light at the end of the tunnel became the headlamp of another oncoming train. McCown DID get better.....had his best season ever, actually......Last season Kruger, Gipson, Greco and Skrine had career years too.....so you cant balme the coach when they are bad, if you wont allow him any slack when they have career years?....that's unfair and unbalanced.... 4) I'd like to know what's really going on with Joe Haden and if there's any correlation to him not wanting to jeopardize the rest of his career constantly taking on a bunch of RBs turning the corner - unobstructed with a full head of steam. Looks to me like Haden knows how to fail the concussion test every week as one of the only guys in the league unable to overcome a concussion within 8 weeks. Do I blame him if it is his way of protesting a scheme that doesn't belong in the NFL? His salary tells me I should blame him but concern for his future tells me I shouldn't blame him. Alternative? Head Coach needs to tune into what is going on all around him or it becomes easier than ever to lose veterans and team leaders. Massive sweeping assumptions here.....there is ZERO reason to think any of this is true....except it plays well into your point of view....but history would tell me that s not Hadens MO, so Il stick with him just being injured.... 5) Pettine was the one assuring everyone he and Farmer had a terrific working relationship by pointing out how much input/say he and his staff had for the draft. Sounds like his staff had just as much or more say than his scouts. O'Neil's presser before and after the draft also made that clear when he said Shelton/Orchard were helping our Oline Coaches rule out many offensive line prospects. Sounds like a lot of say from the Pett shop boys IMO. I seem to recall a big fondness for T West came from the coaching staff. If Pettine was thinking about predicating the success of his defense off the corner position (like he had from Revis and Cromartie in NY) guess what position we ended up drafting first in 2014? Cornerback. So, Pettine was i on some of the picks.....Id expect ANY Coach to have "some say".....doesnt mean he scouted them or knows the details, that is on the GM.....so, Id say the GM/Scouts bring the info to the Coach and they decide together who is most suitable for the team....BUT, if GM doesnt tell COACH that the players have issues, how is the Coach gonna make an informed decision...??? Do you actually think that Farmer came to Pettine and said I have a great CB, QB and RB in line, and all have major head issues....do you want them? 6) Pettine doesn't want to count on rookies in important places; but he hired a rookie OC and a rookie DC. Shanny wasn't bad if you like a Cinderella story with an early midnight (also unfolding in ATL as we speak). When his dad ran the zbs - he had Alex Gibb on staff/consultant, which came in handy once enough teams had it on film in order to get it to the next level. More specifically, experience mattered come time for game day/second half adjustments. Hmmm......Ive seen rookies like Bitonio, West, Crowell, Gabriel, Kwaun, Duke, Desir, Campbell, Shelton, Cooper, Orchard and Kirksey ALL play as rookies under Pettine....so, he doesnt hate em all, now does he? And Ive talked a lot about the lac of experience on the staff.....which, I believe, can be improved. There were NO good coaches to hire at the last second, so where was Pettine supposed to go for coaches?....the staff needs adjustment, not fired...and THIS theme will repeat if we hire another new coach this year....... 7) Pettine doesn't like heavy partying off the field especially if it's a QB/leader; but he chose that type of history as his Offensive Line Coach? What kind of message does this send to the team in terms of consistency? And why did he okay Manziel's first trip to Vegas if he was so concerned about his partying? I heard his presser when he clarified Manziel asked for his permission and he granted it since he had exceeded their expectations at the time on www.clevelandbrowns.com. Convenient argument.....Pettine doesnt like drunk QB's who dont show up to practice or play....huge difference..... You wanna blame Pettine for what his drunk coach did?....fine.....but thats weak and kind of a lame attack..... 8) 2nd year of a scheme in quest of continuity should show more playing faster than playing confused. I'm seeing more playing confused which is why that statistics reflecting that doesn't surprise me. I dont see this confusion....I see a lack of talent.....and I see a decimated defensive back field, that WAS the ONLY part of the D we could rely on....and now that its down, its brought the rest of the D with it.... I saw 5 pro bowl players this year....and 3 went down with MAJOR injuries.......How can a team, devoid of talent, absorb the loss of the few good players they have and still be expected to "improve"...???.....that makes zero sense....(and usually you make sense) 9) Talent argument? Since the 2015 season started, which of these veterans here before Pettine - look to be playing up to up their standard? Joe Thomas? Alex Mack? John Greco? Paul Kruger? Desmond Bryant? Joe Haden (before his injury)? Tashaun Gipson? John Hughes? Bark Mingo? How about younger players like Bitonio? The Crow that was averaging 5.4 yards a carry 8-10 weeks into 2014? Is Gabriel better or worse? K'Wuan Williams? Gilbert? Kirksey?....Ill take this challenge....Greco, Kruger and Gipson had "FAR AND AWAY" their best seasons ever, under Pettine....by farrr.....Thomas, Mack, Haden, Bryant, Hughes all have played up t their normal standards..... Mingo?....basically the same(shitty)....Mack until he was hurt.......Bito? had a GREAT rookie year and then not as strong this year, so do you give Pettine credit for the rookie year?....or only want to blame him for the drop off this year?.....maybe that coach you were complaining about had something to d with that...or maybe some players just have better years than others.....do you know of ANY players that just get better every year, without any ups or downs?.....(please dont say yes, because we ll know they go up and down.....year after year) , 10) Does a 31st ranked running game, 32 ranked Defense and undisciplined Special Teams really buy tenure? If any of us performed like that at work - we'd be in charge of the broom closet. Again....that would only be if your boss has no clue what and why.... Yeah, I get the Manziel stuff sucks but QB hasn't really been this team's nightmare in 2015. That said, asking any QB in this league to overcome the margin of error this defense and running game sentences the passer to every week has been the ultimate show stopper. The 1 week we played ideal sic em, sock em and sack em - we rathoused TN by double digits. But look at the "running game">....do you realize it actually improved this year?......do you realize the ONLY difference between last season and this season is the pass defense???.....and the fact that we lost 50% of our starting DB's....and they happened to be our ALL Pros(the good ones)....and the fact that our PASSING DEFENSE gave up double the TD's and got 1/3 of the Ints of last year???? Thats where the problem is.....not on the sideline..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Well Fluges....I guess we have completely different perspectives....and I prefer NOT to make broad assumptions, while many here choose to do the opposite......usually you are so sensible, but I think you are working overtime to try to peg this on Pettine, when that isnt the case.... I'm just stubborn on my belief that a Head Coach should be held accountable for HIS choices and decisions such as: 1) Selection of Coaches inclusive of their experience volumes 2) Selection of Defensive Scheme for his rookie DC (Mario Williams spoke up on how flawed the Rex Ryan system is - plus we've seen how many ghost towns it has vrs many situations). 3) He and coaching staff not only decide who makes the team, but who starts and what guys they commit more time to developing. What have we seen from the Pett faves like Hawkins and Gabriel that's so endearing? Phil Simms does one of our games and he calls them a massive mismatch on our QB in the sense when they do get off the line of scrimmage - they're not easy guys to track or throw donward slant passes to. In sticking with them - we cut a guy like Lenz (which a couple vets like Hartline and Whitner felt compelled enough to say it was shocking they cut Lenz). 4) How frequently fundamentals are practiced/repeated such as different methods of disengaging blockers and or just tackling people. 5) How thoroughly assignments are explained such as a long time vet like Tramon Williams expected help over the top on AJ Green and with nobody showing up in area code. I see a lot of ghost towns when we're getting gashed on the ground. 6) How frequently he and staff feels the need to run 320 lb defensive linemen on and off the field after almost every play and yet we wonder why we lack continuity, chemistry and fresh legs? 7) How often guys are on the same page out there and the on field communication. This mis-communication has been omnipresent throughout the season on all 3 units. 8) Frequency of penalties. 9) Repetition of all the same mistakes every single week. We're going to agree to disagree on your angle Pettine shouldn't be held accountable at all. If the talent was good enough to be competitive in 2014 before a final install was done on defense in 2015 - I'm not seeing where the worst record in the NFL (7 straight losses), 32nd ranked running game heading into today and 32nd ranked defense (w/ 5 straight games allowing over 30 points) should make this everybody but Pettine's fault. Instead of saying the same ole we just gotta continue to work hard - how about we just gotta work smarter for once? Yeah, that makes me nervous his silence on such is a fess up his staff can't prepare us for situational football enough to look like they're working smarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 I'm just stubborn on my belief that a Head Coach should be held accountable for HIS choices and decisions Most professionals can be accountable, without losing their jobs....accountability comes in many ways.... Point of this thread was that the GM and owner refuse to be accountable ad, in fact, are in hiding...while the Coach IS stepping up and accepting it, while forging ahead and trying to make things better... And he's the only one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Problem is you can't fire the owner and if you fire Farmer you essentially fire Pettine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Pettine is the Head Coach. He is responsible. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Pettine is the Head Coach. He is responsible. Period. The best Head Coach in the NFL today if you are applying "Manziel" logic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 Pettine is supposed to fly solo at this time in the year. What can a owner, or GM for that matter offer about game play? Haslam is doing it just right. After the season, he will have something to say. At this point the only real thing he can say is he is replacing somebody, and he has elected to let the season play out. I don't disagree with that decision. I understand peoples frustration. I am frustrated as well, but there is a time and place for people to speak or take action. The way I see this working is once the season is over, Farmer is let go. Pettine may or may not be let go as well. I think his fate may be delayed to allow the new director of football to make the decision on Pet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 I will add....I don't think Haslam has simply been doing nothing the last month or so. I would bet he has been talking to other owners, the NFL advisory panel, getting some feedback on where we are going wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 it's amazing how, with a win, all the blow-hards and the 'fire 'em all' guys go hiding under their beds and nothing is heard from them again until a loss. something just doesn't sound right about that, to me, as a fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 it's amazing how, with a win, all the blow-hards and the 'fire 'em all' guys go hiding under their beds and nothing is heard from them again until a loss. something just doesn't sound right about that, to me, as a fan. Mik post if fire em all guys WERE out: It's amazing how, with a win, all the blowhards and the 'fire 'em all' guys can't STFU for two days and celebrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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