Enough of This Nonsense

[Flugel]

Folks,

You have my word. If Derek Anderson is STILL starting here after our 8th game - I will show up to a tailgate party dressed in baby diapers and pink Spandex with a pacifier in my mouth for all to see.

 

DA isn't another Walt Disney story working it's way toward another happily ever after. I don't care if Loverboy has his Lancelot armour on or not. This isn't Camelot either even though the word on the street is Loverboy came-a-lot.

 

Do any Frat boys out West have the grapefruits to reciprocate my challenge? Don't tell me Tonya Harding has more testicles than the entire Beaver Nation.

- Tom F.

[Gips]

DA wont even be here at the start of the season..the real question is will BQ or DA be here at the start of the season?

Or is mangini gonna bring us the incapable bottom dregs likes of orton or campbell and sell em as the next big thing to a sometimes less then intelligent fanbase....hehehehehe

[Flugel]

Dude, I've already tried to bet Lumdum on this. I offered to leave this board forever if DA wins the camp battle, and he wants no part of any wagers. Even more proof he lacks any conviction of the shit he posts on here.

 

I utterly and completely own lumbergh, his ass belongs to me, and boy is it chapped.

 

LOL! Evidently, his frat brothers in here are just as terrified.

- Tom F.

[Flugel]

DA wont even be here at the start of the season..the real question is will BQ or DA be here at the start of the season?

Or is mangini gonna bring us the incapable bottom dregs likes of orton or campbell and sell em as the next big thing to a sometimes less then intelligent fanbase....hehehehehe

 

Good point. The worst part of THIS story begins when you open up the book. We drafted Quinn to be a sideline mannequin that makes millions of dollars with ZERO intentions of playing him. Instead of learning if he was the answer or not, we've spent 3 years wondering if the 3 of spades is the King of Hearts. In Oregon YES, in Cleveland NO! All that's missing in this story is a "Welcome to Detroit" sign.

- Tom F.

[Flugel]

The real question is this.

 

If Quinn isn't behind center on opening day, then who is?

 

And if we have a list of

 

Orton

 

Do you know what NOBODY is looking at as Chicago gave 2 first round picks, 1 third plus Orton to Denver?

 

Cutler took over a team Plummer had in the AFC Championship and went 17-20 with it. Hence, Shanahan was considered a GREAT coach when he had Elway and Plummer but worthy of firing when his program turned into Vanderbilt West.

 

Meanwhile, Vanderbilt has made a BOWL Season qualification since Cutler left. Never happened with Jay because he never made Vanderbilt anything but Vanderbilt with some pretty air tight spirals. If that's not enough, every time ESPN shows me Orton was 21-12 as a starter - they also show me Cutler was 17-20 in comparison. Okay, so how did each guy do in college? Purdue won the majority of Orton's starts - Cutler walked on water if Vandy won half their games.

 

HOW LONG are all the Jay Cutler led teams going to get excused before someone asks - how about a little post season action for a refreshing change from Mr Wonderful here? He's got the prototypical arm but so did Jeff George. You can't be fragile behind the lookers and between the ears or you'll NEVER fulfill the potential the arm is trying to promise.

 

Cutler absolutley BLEW the Buffalo game with DA-level decision making. They SHOULD have won that game but he wasn't clutch and threw the deadly INT. In the first SD game - he basically handed the ball game to SD and Hoculi gave it back to Denver.

 

Back to the question of who will start for us in 09? I don't think I need to see 1 more audition from DA to tell me this guy hasn't learned a damn thing nor is he accurate enough. 26 starts shows me he's not the answer. Sticking WITH him has set us back enough. Were we like this with Brian Sipe? No, because he got better and we won cinsistently BECAUSE of him. Not only that, Brian Sipe could start a game ice cold and finish the game as the red hot hero. SAME with Bernie when it was his time to shine. If you have to get creative to defend DA or pull out a Bible of excuses - the Loverboy Book of Revelations includes the beast that wants to end our franchise. Meanwhile Brady Quinn is the guy from TD Jesus we drafted to SAVE it. How's that for a little Sunday school? If Charlie Weis started the alternative to Quinn too, wanna bet he would have made himself just as unemployed as RAC? Quinn can't SAVE the program if he doesn't get a chance to.

 

Like Shep keeps trying to hammer out: it's absurd to draft Quinn only to never give him a chance based on the cruddy alternative we've continued to witness. I bought stock in Advil because of all the dome-aches DA causes.

- Tom F.

[listercat]

Dude, I've already tried to bet Lumdum on this. I offered to leave this board forever if DA wins the camp battle, and he wants no part of any wagers. Even more proof he lacks any conviction of the shit he posts on here.

 

I utterly and completely own lumbergh, his ass belongs to me, and boy is it chapped.

 

 

I will echo your offer kind sir!

[sisky fringo]

DA wont even be here at the start of the season..the real question is will BQ or DA be here at the start of the season?

Or is mangini gonna bring us the incapable bottom dregs likes of orton or campbell and sell em as the next big thing to a sometimes less then intelligent fanbase....hehehehehe

i think the real question is if DA starts will you still be here?

[sisky fringo]

Tom, do you think Brian Sipe could play in today's NFL? honestly?

 

i definitely feel DA could have played then, just saying. teams (defenses) weren't near the sophistication of today and it took Elway three years to maintain competency and Bradshaw like seven......

 

again, just saying.

 

in Quinn's short career as an NFL QB the thing i see that scares me the most is in his delivery. regarding the finger injury, while i appreciate him staring down the barrel of the gun and making that throw through the pressure in his face i saw that same injury almost happen several other times. i'm not going to act like i'm an expert on mechanics and his release doesn't look slow but there were several close calls, behind the same O-line DA threw behind. to his credit (quick release, long arms, height, whatever) DA got it out before this was ever a concern. in comparing the two i saw DA's arm get hooked a few times but i never saw lineman in his face blocking the ball's delivery and potentially stobing fingers etc.

it definitely scares me a bit.

[Flugel]

Tom, do you think Brian Sipe could play in today's NFL? honestly?

 

IMO, he played when the rules were MORE challenging to QBs and receivers. When he averaged 4000 passing yards a year for 3 consecutive years, the league wasn't trying to increase the scoring by handcuffing the DBs. Plus, MORE teams played on grass outdoors where it included rain, snow, mudd, wind and slippery footballs. Peyton Manning plays indoors, Drew Brees plays indoors, Moon/Culpepper/Cunningham played indoors up in Minn, Warner played indoors before heading to Arizona. There's also more turfs thought to induce better straight ahead foot speed, which helps seperation. Now, more offenses are using the no-huddle to keep tired legs of pass rushers on the field. I add all that up and the sum does not equal too overwhelming for Sipe IMO.

 

I'm not one that likes comparing eras because the rule changes aren't necessarily fair to the guys with the previous passing records. Classic example: I'd NEVER pick Tony Romance over Roger Staubach even though today's rule changes are giving Tony Romance the better stats. I don't think I need to remind people that Staubach won 2 Superbowls and started in 4. Cutler prolly had better numbers than Elway had in his first SB season but that doesn't make him better than Elway. Rule changes. Jon freakin Kitna threw 26 TD passes for the Cincy Bengals the year before Carson Palmer started there so be careful with era comparisons and just call special - special.

 

If I had to hand pick the closest pre-draft scouting report to that of Brian Sipe I would come up with Drew Brees. Arm strength questioned, height questioned but passing numbers and leadership could not be. Truth is Brees had a shakey first 2 years which led to the drafting of Philip Rivers. Ironically, it also led to Brees perfecting the parts of his game he needed to in order to be the guy. WINNERS do this. They improve with experience. Backups, neverbeens and hasbeens get worse.

 

I think the players that are most effected by the rule changes are guys like Chris McAlister. He was an All Pro when he could jack hammer WRs off the ball and all the way downfield. Now he's looking for a team that wants to play zone only. Good luck with that.

- Tom F.

[BernietheKid]

Tom, do you think Brian Sipe could play in today's NFL? honestly?

 

i definitely feel DA could have played then, just saying. teams weren't near the sophistication of today and it took Elway three years to maintain competency and Bradshaw like seven......

 

again, just saying.

 

in Quinn's short career as an NFL QB the thing i see that scares me the most is in his delivery. regarding the finger injury, while i appreciate him staring down the barrel of the gun and making that throw through the pressure in his face i saw that same injury almost happen several other times. i'm not going to act like i'm an expert on mechanics and his release doesn't look slow but there were several close calls, behind the same O-line DA threw behind. to his credit (quick release, long arms, height, whatever) DA got it out before this was ever a concern. in comparing the two i saw DA's arm get hooked a few times but i never saw lineman in his face blocking the ball's delivery and potentially stobing fingers etc.

it definitely scares me a bit.

 

 

You know what scares me about DA is the lack of progression. He is still making the same throws and staring down the same recievers like he did when he first started. DA only has a quick release because he only looks at the first two recievers and gets rid of it. He never lets a play develop. I would expect a QB after 26 starts to at least progress or show some signs of improvement.

 

So the question is do you want to start a guy who you know is gonna keep making the same mistakes over and over again, or someone that actually might be able to learn and grow from those experiences?

[Drunkandstoopid]

I'm still pointing to Mangini's quote of "I can win with Quinn" the quote that basically sealed the deal for Lerner to hire Mangini.

 

Lerner is ultimately the boss, no matter how hands off he is, and the main reason Opie or Milkdud are in the unemployment line right now is because of they're stubborness to play Quinn.

I'm still trying to find where the "I can win with Quinn" story started. What I'm finding is message board chatter.

 

It would be nice to hear it in context. Hopefully it's not "I can win with one arm tied behind my back", that'd be a let down for some on the board here.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

You know what scares me about DA is the lack of progression. He is still making the same throws and staring down the same recievers like he did when he first started. DA only has a quick release because he only looks at the first two recievers and gets rid of it. He never lets a play develop. I would expect a QB after 26 starts to at least progress or show some signs of improvement.

 

So the question is do you want to start a guy who you know is gonna keep making the same mistakes over and over again, or someone that actually might be able to learn and grow from those experiences?

 

Anderson is very immobile and doesn't move in the pocket very well. He releases the ball quickly to avoid sacks and pressure. The problem is if the defense has taken away your first option you need to go through your progression reads. He does not do that very effectively. Thus, the primary option is usually where the ball goes and if they are tripple covered it doesn't usually end up pretty.

 

He does not use a dump off effectively and doesn't pick up the hot read. He also isn't very effective with changing plays at the line of scrimmage.

 

But, he has a gun...................................LOL

[sisky fringo]

IMO, he played when the rules were MORE challenging to QBs and receivers. When he averaged 4000 passing yards a year for 3 consecutive years, the league wasn't trying to increase the scoring by handcuffing the DBs. Plus, MORE teams played on grass outdoors where it included rain, snow, mudd and slippery footballs. Peyton Manning plays indoors, Drew Brees plays indoors, Moon/Culpepper/Cunningham played indoors up in Minn, Warner played indoors before heading to Arizona. There's also more turfs thought to induce better straight ahead foot speed, which helps seperation. Now, more offenses are using the no-huddle to keep tired legs of pass rushers on the field. I add all that up and the sum does not equal too overwhelming for Sipe IMO.

don't let the devil's advocate fool ya, i'm a Brian Sipe superfan. but Tom, he was 175 pounds soaking wet and threw like Dorsey. nuff said. i don't like comparing eras either but let's be real.

 

you make some good points but i think we both know the answer. if the rest of my post could garner the attention that first sentence did i'd probably still be reading. i know they were blitzing him like mad but those defenders got significant pressure on Brady in those games. you're astute, you had to see it to.

[sisky fringo]

You know what scares me about DA is the lack of progression. He is still making the same throws and staring down the same recievers like he did when he first started. DA only has a quick release because he only looks at the first two recievers and gets rid of it. He never lets a play develop. I would expect a QB after 26 starts to at least progress or show some signs of improvement.

 

So the question is do you want to start a guy who you know is gonna keep making the same mistakes over and over again, or someone that actually might be able to learn and grow from those experiences?

if you didn't see progression you weren't watching. even i saw it. he made tons of better reads, improved on his short game some, and attempted to allow plays to develop when necessary. per your handle, if you watched Kosar you know that on many, many of his throws the ball was also in the air before the receiver turned around>>for years. that's how it is in the pro game, you run a play and throw to a spot. you don't have all day to find a target while the pass rush is counting to ten out loud.

 

that last bit was rhetorical, right? while i may come off as a DA defender it's sometimes about pr w/ me. and if he ends up being the QB for the Browns you can thank the few of us around here that helped the guy feel a little more welcome. i post w/ the understanding that our players might be reading the board too.

[sisky fringo]

Anderson is very immobile and doesn't move in the pocket very well. He releases the ball quickly to avoid sacks and pressure. The problem is if the defense has taken away your first option you need to go through your progression reads. He does not do that very effectively. Thus, the primary option is usually where the ball goes and if they are tripple covered it doesn't usually end up pretty.

 

He does not use a dump off effectively and doesn't pick up the hot read. He also isn't very effective with changing plays at the line of scrimmage.

is that like saying he has a cannon, a strong arm, and can really throw a nice long ball? he certainly has some things to work on but saying it several ways doesn't multiply it. our other remaining option threw into triple coverage often too, once to Heiden in quadruple and another time to blatant quadruple vs the ravens for that pick. what's good for the goose is good for the gander. tell Derek Anderson he always takes his first read, i'm sure he could use a good laugh. for example in his 1st start in '07 vs Cincy he picked up the hot read all day and burned them until they stopped. that's more than we can say for Brady, he had single coverage constantly in those games, he shoulda dissected them w/ his "Weis" pedigree.

 

audibles are a luxury of experience and knowledge of the system/playbook. that's not really fair to Derek considering the intangibles. the one Vickers blew comes instantly to mind.

[Flugel]

don't let the devil's advocate fool ya, i'm a Brian Sipe superfan. but Tom, he was 175 pounds soaking wet and threw like Dorsey. nuff said. i don't like comparing eras either but let's be real.

 

you make some good points but i think we both know the answer. if the rest of my post could garner the attention that first sentence did i'd probably still be reading. i know they were blitzing him like mad but those defenders got significant pressure on Brady in those games. you're astute, you had to see it to.

 

Thanks for the reply Sisky. Appreciate your feedback and it sounds like I just need to clarify a couple things. Don't feel bad if you disagree. I value your opinions either way. NOBODY thought Sipe could play back in HIS era if we remember what being a 13th round pick represented. There's guys that defy the laws of logic and reason in every era. I think we often get too uncomfortable with the uniqueness of it all to fully appreciate what we're witnessing. Flutie led a Buffalo team to the playoffs and get benched for Rob Johnson because RoJo was thought to be the prototype while Flutie wasnt supposed to be successful. I never heard a creative answer that made sense justifying the reason why Buffalo chose to hang themselves that post season. Served em right though.

 

I disagree that he threw the ball like Dorsey. If I ever saw Sipe throwing the ball like Dorsey - I'd be asking why couldn't he get the ball past the line of scrimmage when the wind was blowing instead remembering MY golden age of being a Browns' fan. You don't think the winds off Lake Erie are stronger today than they were in the late 70s/early 80s do you?

 

I judge a QB by what he does to those around him. For instance, how memorable was Reggie Rucker's career before playing with Sipe? He was a journeyman that played for Dallas, NE and the Giants. He came here and became an important part of our offense. Old men like Paul Warfield and Calvin Hill revived their careers when they were deemed too old elsewhere. Other average Joes like Dave Logan and Rickey Feacher elevated their level of play around Sipe. EVERYONE in the offense got better; and that was a reminder we had the RIGHT guy. If we replaced Sipe with the STRONGER arm and 210 pounds of the 6'3" Mike Phipps what would have happened to all that? I can only go by what guy made things happen and what one didn't. We did prototype vrs special. Because the results were so glaringly uncomfortable about Phipps - we prolly spent 1-2 seasons too many dotting our i's and crossing our t's with Phipps. Sipe came in and suddenly everything that was previously overwhelmingly became doable on a weekly basis. If Sipe played today, what makes you think he'd only be 175 pounds?

 

MAYBE the reason alot of us liked a Brian Sipe or a Bernie Kosar is because of what they did with those imperfections they had. I see Ken Dorsey throwing a football the way my wife throws it and I can only ask: how the Hell was THIS guy kept here for 2 years as a TUTOR to our young QBs? Sipe had BETTER vision and pocket presence than Dorsey too. Bernie had a side-arm and on occasion a softball pitcher's delivery BUT his passing efficiency went through the roof and we went to 3 AFC Championships because of it. Hard to complain. When we had a kicktail line for Bernie - nobody cared how immobile he was. Tom Brady running his 40s in Indy didn't look much faster if I'm being honest.

- Tom F. (You're buddy Flugel is a stubborn old man!)

[samoth]

i dont give a shit who our QB is as long as we win games. It could be Quinn, Anderson, Richard Bartel, hell it could be Trent Freakin Dilfer again for all I care, just make the team a contender.

[sisky fringo]

great post Tom. i started smiling a couple of sentences in and haven't stopped. i love hearing those things and being reminded of why we love the guys we love, guys that define heart. guys that to me define the Browns. we're often hardest on those we love. Brian could chuck it boy, it may have looked like a kickoff sometimes but it got there. on the money too. Lake Erie blows, he had something for sure. you deserved a better example than Dorsey for sure, but i grabbed it because it was recent and a Brownie. a poor choice on my part. it's even a little weird referring to Ken Dorsey as a Brownie. you know? that's kind of what those guys brought. you had faith in them. the guys rallied behind them w/ muddy faces. back when everybody had worn out torn banners and i scanned the crowd for orange tuxedos, complete with the blaze orange sneakers.

 

and let's not forget Bernie went like three plus years w/out an INT.

thanks Tom, i for one am glad you're stubborn. sometimes we need reminded.

[BernietheKid]

if you didn't see progression you weren't watching. even i saw it. he made tons of better reads, improved on his short game some, and attempted to allow plays to develop when necessary. per your handle, if you watched Kosar you know that on many, many of his throws the ball was also in the air before the receiver turned around>>for years. that's how it is in the pro game, you run a play and throw to a spot. you don't have all day to find a target while the pass rush is counting to ten out loud.

 

that last bit was rhetorical, right? while i may come off as a DA defender it's sometimes about pr w/ me. and if he ends up being the QB for the Browns you can thank the few of us around here that helped the guy feel a little more welcome. i post w/ the understanding that our players might be reading the board too.

 

I was watching and I didn't see it. Yeah he checked down but for the majority of the time he's still doing the same thing looking at his first two reads and getting rid of it. Go watch tape on DA than watch Quinn because there is a difference. Quinn goes through all his progressions than goes to the checkdown. Not look at the first two reads than go to the checkdown. Or just throw into triple coverage because he thinks he can fit the ball anywhere. At least thats what I see when I watch him play. Everytime he drops back to pass I'm hoping he doesn't screw up.

 

Yes it was rhetorical but I appreciate your thoughts and comments. It's just a difference of opinion.

 

In the end I just want what's best for the team as do most people around here except for a few.

[sisky fringo]

I was watching and I didn't see it. Yeah he checked down but for the majority of the time he's still doing the same thing looking at his first two reads and getting rid of it. Go watch tape on DA than watch Quinn because there is a difference. Quinn goes through all his progressions than goes to the checkdown. Not look at the first two reads than go to the checkdown. Or just throw into triple coverage because he thinks he can fit the ball anywhere. At least thats what I see when I watch him play. Everytime he drops back to pass I'm hoping he doesn't screw up.

 

Yes it was rhetorical but I appreciate your thoughts and comments. It's just a difference of opinion.

 

In the end I just want what's best for the team as do most people around here except for a few.

thanks for the reply BtK. i was thinking back and remember one of my very posts on this board, about this time a few years ago. in essence it said i hoped whomever the Browns went after for QB i hope he's lights out awesome, head and shoulders above the two we had (Frye/Anderson). otherwise i feared Charlie or whoever would be just good enough to continue this never-ending circle of suck.

 

and yet here we are.

 

either both these guys are better than i think or this city has a serious curse on it.

 

there's really only one option as i see it: having faith in Mangini & Co.

 

what say let's see what these guys can accomplish with our full support. here's to 8-8 **cheers**

[Timugen]

it seems to me you guys just want Quinn. That is just retarted. I just want wins. DA gave us 10 wins back in 2007 and you cant say nothing about that? And I dont want to hear we were playn shitty teams. They were NFL teams you assholes. You same Retards cry about lummy liken DA when you are the same way with Quinn. And for the record I dont want Quinn or Anderson on the team. Im just wondering if Quinn does get shipped how many of you boners will be gone to? So come on and quote everything I just wrote because I cant wait to get into it with you so line em up you used condoms

 

 

Tomorrow is a school day. Does Mommy know that you're up past your night-night time using her computer?

[Guest mz.]

it seems to me you guys just want Quinn. That is just retarted. I just want wins. DA gave us 10 wins back in 2007 and you cant say nothing about that? And I dont want to hear we were playn shitty teams. They were NFL teams you assholes. You same Retards cry about lummy liken DA when you are the same way with Quinn. And for the record I dont want Quinn or Anderson on the team. Im just wondering if Quinn does get shipped how many of you boners will be gone to? So come on and quote everything I just wrote because I cant wait to get into it with you so line em up you used condoms

 

Good read.

 

Who needs King Kaufman, Chuck Klosterman or even Bill Simmons when you have medicineman?

[Legacy Fan]

That is just retarted.

 

Post of the year.

[Tobalaz]

it seems to me you guys just want Quinn. That is just retarted. I just want wins. DA gave us 10 wins back in 2007 and you cant say nothing about that? And I dont want to hear we were playn shitty teams. They were NFL teams you assholes. You same Retards cry about lummy liken DA when you are the same way with Quinn. And for the record I dont want Quinn or Anderson on the team. Im just wondering if Quinn does get shipped how many of you boners will be gone to? So come on and quote everything I just wrote because I cant wait to get into it with you so line em up you used condoms

You want us to cry about winning 10 games?

How about this one?

He handed wins 11, 12 and 13 to Oakland, Arizona and Cincitucki on silver platter or we would have been in the playoffs.

Hell if he would have done better than a Goofy's "Aw shucks, at least it wasn't 5 picks!" then we'd all be hailing him as a savior not a one year wonder.

And maybe we all wouldn't be so hard on the guy if Lummy hadn't antagonized the living hell out of all of us by calling us Quinn fags any time we said anything that could have possibly been considered negative.

I'll admit most of my animosity towards Drive Assasin comes from being attacked by Lums every time I pointed out one of DA's faults.

As a matter of fact, I wasn't sold on Quinn before we drafted him and still am not sure, but before we trade or let walk away a 1st round pick I want to see if the kid can cut the mustard or not.

 

 

[Guest Masters]

it seems to me you guys just want Quinn. That is just retarted. I just want wins. DA gave us 10 wins back in 2007 and you cant say nothing about that?

 

Well someone already pointed out the games DA threw away (literally). I also guess Winslow, BE, and JJ getting laid out left and right to make plays on bad throws in each and every one of those wins had nothing to do with it.

[ballpeen]

Well someone already pointed out the games DA threw away (literally). I also guess Winslow, BE, and JJ getting laid out left and right to make plays on bad throws in each and every one of those wins had nothing to do with it.

 

The guy is just a troll....don't even feed it. Just hit the ignore button and have some real football discussion.

 

[NewEraDawg]

I really love getting people a little angry. You should read what I wrote on one of the Shitburgh boards im on. I swear they have no class at all.

 

Don't confuse class with stupidity . Unfortunately you are stupid and may find it difficult to discern the diff .

 

Go away troll

[Flugel]

So, any guesses on who medicineman really is? He just smacks of somebody's puppet.

 

He spells like he goes to college at Oregon State so if I had to take a stab at it - it's one of Loverboy's pledges who also answers to "Plays-with-self."

 

I'm seeing some outrageous names from that campus. What's the other one? "Drunkandstupid" which of course is code for Honor Roll.

And just when it couldn't get any more outrageous - I saw Horseballs was lurking in this thread practicing his reading pace for Evelyn Woodhead.

- Tom F.

[Drunkandstoopid]

You want us to cry about winning 10 games?

How about this one?

He handed wins 11, 12 and 13 to Oakland, Arizona and Cincitucki on silver platter or we would have been in the playoffs.

Hell if he would have done better than a Goofy's "Aw shucks, at least it wasn't 5 picks!" then we'd all be hailing him as a savior not a one year wonder.

And maybe we all wouldn't be so hard on the guy if Lummy hadn't antagonized the living hell out of all of us by calling us Quinn fags any time we said anything that could have possibly been considered negative.

I'll admit most of my animosity towards Drive Assasin comes from being attacked by Lums every time I pointed out one of DA's faults.

As a matter of fact, I wasn't sold on Quinn before we drafted him and still am not sure, but before we trade or let walk away a 1st round pick I want to see if the kid can cut the mustard or not.

 

I'll give you the Cincy game, but Arizona and Oakland were aided GREATLY by the Browns' lack of defense.

[Mark O]

I'll give you the Cincy game, but Arizona and Oakland were aided GREATLY by the Browns' lack of defense.

 

 

How many points did the defense give up as a direct result of boat shoes turnovers?

 

Tough to blame the defense when the QB is turning the ball over.