No Love for Quinn

[damajuki]

Exactly, and I'm sure the coaches and team management are making their decisions base on the whole picture, not just a partial picture like many here.

My good God, you guys must be constructed of particularly dense material up there in Oregonia.

 

There's no "partial picture" clouding things for most of us. Most of us are not particularly fond of Quinn per se. What many of us want -- and have always wanted -- is for a return on the investment. That's why I was for trading/letting DA go (would have been a great return on a small investment), not letting DA play for us ever again (because of the little return on a big investment in '08) and letting Quinn get his chance to play (only way to get any real return on big investment).

 

Here, I will type it really slow for you, so perhaps you can grasp the concept:

 

Quinn

 

was

 

a

 

1st

 

round

 

pick.

 

He

 

either

 

must

 

play

 

or

 

return

 

equal

 

value.

 

There? Is that simple enough for you?

 

And because "equal value" would be a 1st and 2nd (what we actually paid for him), which we are unlikely to get for him, I don't see how trading him helps us.

 

Unless he really is the worst college QB prospect of all time and no one knows it but you, Lum and ManKok.

[Drunkandstoopid]

Some reasonable people have said, what Savage did with his first round pick a couple years back has no bearing on what the current management has to do... I tend to agree with them. There's no need to play or trade for equal value if the new management deems it so.

[ndneighbor]

beat him in head to head competition in College

 

This is hopelessly inaccurate. The Insight Bowl scoreboard did not say "Anderson vs. Quinn". Did it?

 

This is on par with saying "Scott Norwood lost the Superbowl". You're college educated and I'm assuming you know better.

 

I know this kind of posting makes some people tired.

 

But, there is a reason that NFL teams have been so successful with names like Parcells and Belichick at the helm.

 

Sometimes, even they found themselves having to deal with hopeless franchises that couldn't grasp the concept of "team".

 

Please forgive me. I'll get off my soap box now. (Hey, these smileys are cute!)

 

[damajuki]

Some reasonable people have said, what Savage did with his first round pick a couple years back has no bearing on what the current management has to do... I tend to agree with them. There's no need to play or trade for equal value if the new management deems it so.

There is an argument to be made for the "clean sweep" philosophy but what's incontrovertible is that cutting your losses comes at a steep price.

 

What you seem not to understand is that regardless of who made the original decisions, they were still BAD DECISIONS if the ORGANIZATION is hurt by them.

 

So, like I said earlier, paying DA/not taking the picks was a BAD DECISION because it's STILL AFFECTING the organization, regardless what ManKok do with DA now.

 

Similarly, if Quinn is traded for less than was paid for him, that doesn't mean it's GOOD for the franchise. If we trade him for a 1st, we're still out that second and the ORGANIZATION has gained NOTHING.

 

So the point remains: if you trade BQ without playing him and get back for him less than was paid, that is an organizational LOSS, just like the picks we LOST by signing DA.

 

All in all, if BQ is traded for a 1st, we'd have lost 3 total picks because of Savage's decision to keep DA.

 

Can't see how that's a win for the team.

[Drunkandstoopid]

What you don't get, is that there is a possibility that the current management feel the drafting of BQ wasn't necessarily a great decision, or the possibility that they think he's an OK QB, but they'll gain more by trading him than keeping him.

 

Just because the Browns paid a high price to get ANY player, not just BQ or DA, doesn't mean they have to get equal value on the original price to let a player go. Who cares about the picks they lost in the past?... I bet Lerner and the rest of the organization consider it water under the bridge, and if they feel trading a player today will make them a better team tomorrow, they'll do it no matter what that player cost in the past.

[NebBrownsFan]

What you don't get, is that there is a possibility that the current management feel the drafting of BQ wasn't necessarily a great decision, or the possibility that they think he's an OK QB, but they'll gain more by trading him than keeping him.

 

Just because the Browns paid a high price to get ANY player, not just BQ or DA, doesn't mean they have to get equal value on the original price to let a player go. Who cares about the picks they lost in the past?... I bet Lerner and the rest of the organization consider it water under the bridge, and if they feel trading a player today will make them a better team tomorrow, they'll do it no matter what that player cost in the past.

 

For once D&S, I have to agree here. The current FO isn't go to be held hostage by what the previous FO did, and they shouldn't be. ManKok needs to field what they feel is the best team, and get best value for players they don't think fit.

 

IMO though, I don't think they are looking to trade Quinn, unless the offer is just too good to pass AND they are intent on getting Sanchez. Everything that's been said out of Berea, and that is extremely little, is that EVERYONE except JT and D'Qwell is tradeable, and they have listened to offers. No one has said they are actively shopping BQ, or DA, other than media "sources".

 

While I hate being in the dark as much as the next person, this offseason really has been fun so far.

[damajuki]

What you don't get, is that there is a possibility that the current management feel the drafting of BQ wasn't necessarily a great decision, or the possibility that they think he's an OK QB, but they'll gain more by trading him than keeping him.

 

Just because the Browns paid a high price to get ANY player, not just BQ or DA, doesn't mean they have to get equal value on the original price to let a player go. Who cares about the picks they lost in the past?... I bet Lerner and the rest of the organization consider it water under the bridge, and if they feel trading a player today will make them a better team tomorrow, they'll do it no matter what that player cost in the past.

Hey, alright, now you're cooking! Spoken almost like a BROWNS fan. There's hope for you yet...

 

So, yeah, I do get it. And I agree with this post. Nicely done! (Insert thumbs up smiley here.)

 

Nice jousting with you. As always, produce a few less DA-centric posts and it's much more fun talking with you.

 

It is about moving forward with what's best for the team and organization NOW and I support any and all movements in that direction.

 

So, to get back to the original thread topic, while I believe ManKok when he says "no one is safe" and it's about improving the team, I can't imagine that Quinn is so poorly thought of by Mangini and Kokinis that they would take only one pick for him.

 

Once again, the reality is that BQ has neither succeeded nor failed as an NFL QB yet. Thus, his value is really still to be determined and the calculation that needs to be made by the Browns is whether they think he could possibly increase his value beyond whatever actual offer they have for him by playing him this year.

 

My opinion is that his potential remains high and though I doubt his NFL career ceiling is much higher than DA's, his floor certainly is higher. Which is why I think he'll be given a shot SOMEWHERE this year, and I still hope it's with us (unless someone goes nuts with the picks. Then it's buh-bye Brady and hello defense!)

[Oldcrow1945]

.

 

I am guilty of this too with some of my hometown guys but at this level of football you MUST look at the roster dispassionately to make decisions. .

 

Note to all OSU fans!

 

Seriously, no one is a bigger Buckeye fan than I am. But it amazes me that people can't seem to see players for what they are when it comes to the Buckeyes going into the NFL.

 

I was ona Buckeye Forum not long ago and there was a discussion concerning Jim Cordle and how great of an NFL lineman he was going to be because he can play three different positions on the line for the Buckeyes....He's been playing right tackle this year.

There is only one problem with that theory concerning Jim's NFL career...Cordell may not even be drafted. If he does I suspect it'll be a 6th or 7th rounder.

All I can do is shake my head at these people.

 

[Oldcrow1945]

IMO though, I don't think they are looking to trade Quinn, unless the offer is just too good to pass AND they are intent on getting Sanchez.

 

I feel exactly the same.

[Riffer X]

Note to all OSU fans!

 

Seriously, no one is a bigger Buckeye fan than I am. But it amazes me that people can't seem to see players for what they are when it comes to the Buckeyes going into the NFL.

 

I was ona Buckeye Forum not long ago and there was a discussion concerning Jim Cordle and how great of an NFL lineman he was going to be because he can play three different positions on the line for the Buckeyes....He's been playing right tackle this year.

There is only one problem with that theory concerning Jim's NFL career...Cordell may not even be drafted. If he does I suspect it'll be a 6th or 7th rounder.

All I can do is shake my head at these people.

 

Those are the Buckeye types that are in their own little world and who give us that do know a few things a bad rep. Ytown is not that way either, you guys just got into a pissing match.

 

Anybody that thinks Cordle is a guaranteed NFL player is obviously strictly a college fan of OSU. These same types call WKNR with ridiculous takes on Buckeyes, like wanting to draft Troy Smith with the third pick type stuff.

 

I'm sure a lot of college fans are like this but guys on this board who hate OSU and its fans obviously are going to see more of us here than any other team. I just hate it when I can't make a comment about a Buckeye player I like without hearing what a homer I am. This is what Alo and I were talking about how everybody becomes an asshole when discussing Buckeye players on both sides.

 

OSU and it's record of putting guys into the league speaks for itself.

[Oldcrow1945]

OSU and it's record of putting guys into the league speaks for itself.

 

Exactly. Attacking or disrespecting the program is ridiculous....They don't deserve it and they also don't need defending because just as you said, their record speaks for itself.

 

[Mr. T]

Those are the Buckeye types that are in their own little world and who give us that do know a few things a bad rep. Ytown is not that way either, you guys just got into a pissing match.

 

Anybody that thinks Cordle is a guaranteed NFL player is obviously strictly a college fan of OSU. These same types call WKNR with ridiculous takes on Buckeyes, like wanting to draft Troy Smith with the third pick type stuff.

 

I'm sure a lot of college fans are like this but guys on this board who hate OSU and its fans obviously are going to see more of us here than any other team. I just hate it when I can't make a comment about a Buckeye player I like without hearing what a homer I am. This is what Alo and I were talking about how everybody becomes an asshole when discussing Buckeye players on both sides.

 

OSU and it's record of putting guys into the league speaks for itself.

 

 

Call me a homer I dont give chit! I would love to see Laurinaitis, Jenkins & Robiskie playing in a Brown's Jersey this year. Someone is going to pick these guys and they will get damn good players when they do.

[Earl34]

Very interesting thread guys. I would add a couple of thoughts:

 

1) Let's be careful about use of the phrase "trying to trade Quinn". There's a difference between actively calling people to see if they want him and answering the phone when it rings. They'd be stupid not to listen. I think that it's likely THIS is what Mangini talked to Quinn about. He probably said "you're on this team but realize that people are calling us". It's what McDaniels SHOULD have done with Cutler.

 

2)JUST MY SUSPICION but I was thinking that if they probably have contingency deals already in place. For instance, if Sanchez falls to them then they could trade either the pick (and opportunity to select him) or Quinn to Denver. As much as perhaps we like Quinn, perhaps McDaniels has some unreal man-love for the guy and is willing to part with good currency to get him. Also, if Sanchez goes to Seattle and Crabtree to #5 then perhaps the deal with the Giants for Edwards kicks in.

 

3)Re: OSU players. I don't think that one can argue with the quality of the prospects. Yes, they don't have a great track record of success but that shouldn't be an indictment of the school. I'm a Texas alum and our success or lack thereof is similar. Who knew that Ricky Williams was going to friggin' flip out? He's still been a very productive player between the lines. Derrick Johnson on the other hand has been pedestrian. Casey Hampton and Shaun Rogers=good. Michael Huff= inexplicably not so good. No one knows what these guys will do once they get the pay day. No one knows how they will or won't mature in the NFL. No school is 100%. It's a case by case thing. I think that Robiskie is my pick for surprise in this draft. Don't be surprised to see Sanchez at #5...trade Quinn to Denver....take a defensive player at their pick...Robiskie in round 2. As much as any player is a risk, I'd say that a player from a successful program is less of a risk because you have plenty of film on him against top competition.

[NebBrownsFan]

3)Re: OSU players. I don't think that one can argue with the quality of the prospects. Yes, they don't have a great track record of success but that shouldn't be an indictment of the school.

 

My only problem with this statement is based on how you define success. While a number of OSU players may not have lived up to their draft position, I believe success is measured by the number of good, steady contributors the program puts in the NFL. The types of players that form the core and backbone of a team.

 

 

[Earl34]

My only problem with this statement is based on how you define success. While a number of OSU players may not have lived up to their draft position, I believe success is measured by the number of good, steady contributors the program puts in the NFL. The types of players that form the core and backbone of a team.

 

Fair enough but I think that the OSU's and Texases get judged mostly (albeit unfairly) by the high profile guys...yet they do have a great track record of the type of guy that you're referring to. I was thinking about USC this morning and how Cassel couldn't unseat Matt Leinhart and wondering how much that really means. I was reading an article about how Reggie Bush was a bust relative to his draft position. That said, there are a lot of guys over the years who have been that latter type of guy who really are steady NFL players for a long time.

[Oldcrow1945]

Call me a homer I dont give chit!

 

Homer

 

[Oldcrow1945]

My only problem with this statement is based on how you define success. While a number of OSU players may not have lived up to their draft position, I believe success is measured by the number of good, steady contributors the program puts in the NFL. The types of players that form the core and backbone of a team.

 

OSU Ahletes such as WR's and DB's in the NFL have had a lot of success.

 

The one area where Tressel has not been good at is producing players in the trenches. Especially Offensive lineman. He has yet to produce a Orlando Pace, Korey Stringer or Jim Lachey. The Jet's Nick Mangold may be his only success in his entire time at OSU. That is an extremely bad record.

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

[NebBrownsFan]

OSU Ahletes such as WR's and DB's in the NFL have had a lot of success.

 

The one area where Tressel has not been good at is producing players in the trenches. Especially Offensive lineman. He has yet to produce a Orlando Pace, Korey Stringer or Jim Lachey. The Jet's Nick Mangold may be his only success in his entire time at OSU. That is an extremely bad record.

 

Agreed as far as the OL, and possibly a little on the DL side. The linebackers, at least as of late, have been mostly solid type guys, although I think the knock comes when lthey are looked at based on draft position.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

Very interesting thread guys. I would add a couple of thoughts:

 

1) Let's be careful about use of the phrase "trying to trade Quinn". There's a difference between actively calling people to see if they want him and answering the phone when it rings. They'd be stupid not to listen. I think that it's likely THIS is what Mangini talked to Quinn about. He probably said "you're on this team but realize that people are calling us". It's what McDaniels SHOULD have done with Cutler.

 

2)JUST MY SUSPICION but I was thinking that if they probably have contingency deals already in place. For instance, if Sanchez falls to them then they could trade either the pick (and opportunity to select him) or Quinn to Denver. As much as perhaps we like Quinn, perhaps McDaniels has some unreal man-love for the guy and is willing to part with good currency to get him. Also, if Sanchez goes to Seattle and Crabtree to #5 then perhaps the deal with the Giants for Edwards kicks in.

 

3)Re: OSU players. I don't think that one can argue with the quality of the prospects. Yes, they don't have a great track record of success but that shouldn't be an indictment of the school. I'm a Texas alum and our success or lack thereof is similar. Who knew that Ricky Williams was going to friggin' flip out? He's still been a very productive player between the lines. Derrick Johnson on the other hand has been pedestrian. Casey Hampton and Shaun Rogers=good. Michael Huff= inexplicably not so good. No one knows what these guys will do once they get the pay day. No one knows how they will or won't mature in the NFL. No school is 100%. It's a case by case thing. I think that Robiskie is my pick for surprise in this draft. Don't be surprised to see Sanchez at #5...trade Quinn to Denver....take a defensive player at their pick...Robiskie in round 2. As much as any player is a risk, I'd say that a player from a successful program is less of a risk because you have plenty of film on him against top competition.

 

 

Earl, here's a thunderbolt. Denver doesn't want Quinn. They have his brother in Orton. They have a worse defense then us and they are converting to a 3-4. They need every pick they have to spend on their defense. They aren't going to trade a pick for a QB.

 

Here's thunderbolt #2. Cleveland isn't going to draft Sanchez, No matter how many rumors you read, Sanchez isn't coming to Cleveland.

 

Thunderbolt #3. A player from a successful program is just as big a risk as anybody else.

 

Thunderbolt #4. Count the OSU players in the NFL and maybe you might be surprised at their success. Don't even count guys like Eddie George, Orlando Pace or any of those retired pro bowlers.

 

Thunderbolt #5. If they trade Edwards they sure as hell won't wait till round #2 to take a WR. Let's see; robiskie, Patton and Steptoe. That sure will scare the hell out of those defenses. I like Robiskie, but he isn't a #1 receiver. If they do that Quinn may volunteer to be traded. If you want Robiskie you better seriously consider keeping Edwards.

 

Trade Edwards and Quinn? Hell maybe you would like to trade Rogers and Thomas also. We could get a bunch of picks.

 

WTF

[ballpeen]

Thunderbolt #3. A player from a successful program is just as big a risk as anybody else.

 

I mostly agree with the exception of the bolt noted.

 

If there was some rule you could only take players from 15 college teams in any draft year, I have a feeling most of us would end up with fairly similar lists.

 

Why is that??

 

[YtownBrownsBacker]

I mostly agree with the exception of the bolt noted.

 

If there was some rule you could only take players from 15 college teams in any draft year, I have a feeling most of us would end up with fairly similar lists.

 

Why is that??

 

I'm saying it doesn't matter what school or program. The draft is a crapshoot. Just because a player comes from a successful program doesn't mean he isn't as much of a risk as a guy from a smaller school.

[ballpeen]

I'm saying it doesn't matter what school or program. The draft is a crapshoot. Just because a player comes from a successful program doesn't mean he isn't as much of a risk as a guy from a smaller school.

 

 

Got ya...I thought you might have meant that....at least for me it could be read a couple of different ways.

 

I agree.

 

I think most people can do a pretty good job of getting players placed in to proper tiers. You rarely see just wild, out of left field picks being made.

 

Once you do that, you could probably picks names out of a hat and do no better or worse than the guy or team who measures the length of a players leg hairs or looks in to who he took to the Jr. Prom trying to find the key to the correct selections.