Grossi: Browns Will Not Take Crabtree

[ballpeen]

. I am saying I don't think drafting Raji solves any of our needs.

 

You know I agree with you more often than not, but I don't understand that comment.

 

He makes the run D more stout, and his presence will improve the pass rush.

 

He himself isn't a great pass rusher, but he isn't bad. Take Rogers off the ball and play him at end or a traditional tackle spot if we go 4-3 some of the time, and his pass rush improves a great deal.

 

No one guy is going to block either one of them on any kind of regular basis.

 

I see it as a nightmare waiting to happen for opposing offensive lines.

 

[Guest Aloysius]

Aloy...you do a lot of scouting and know the prospects pretty well. Is there THAT big of a difference between Crabtree and Nicks? I'm just thinking we might be better off getting the top rated defensive guy at 5 and then Nicks at 29 if he's still there.

Hard to say. The two of them have similar builds, though Crabtree has longer arms and Nicks has bigger mitts. Both have great hands, though I think Crabtree's more likely to get the tough grab in traffic or successfully high-point a ball. Both are also tough to tackle, though I think Crabtree has better body control and elusiveness in the open field.

 

But where the big issue with both guys is character. Both bombed the Wonderlic (Crabtree got a 15, Nicks scored an 11), but Nicks has also had weight/conditioning issues. After injuring a hamstring at the Combine, he packed on fifteen pounds and couldn't work out at his pro day. He's reportedly dropped the weight since then, but he's said to have been too out of shape to work out for the Ravens last Friday.

 

So while both guys have the physicality and great hands that usually limit a receiver's bustability factor, the character issues add some risk. I think Nicks' issues are more disconcerting: if he doesn't stay in shape, he could end up being a Mike Williams type. And while Crabtree may have some attitude issues, he shows a great deal of competitiveness and toughness on the field. He may not have Calvin Johnson's upside, but I think he'll be a very good receiver.

[BendMeOver]

This posting began with the following statements that Crabtree was interested in the Browns but the Browns were not interested in him. I think the Browns would like to select him, and I think Sanchez is their fallback option. So in refernce to the first statement, were you a Browns GM would you put out statements about how in love you are with him (if indeed you were)? You can't trust anything out of the front office from any team at this time of year.

[DeadWombat]

I never liked crabtree once I heard about his arrogance and personality issues..... I wouldn't want him.

[Guest Masters]

Masters this was reported as being overheard from Mangini's mouth while Crabtree was in Berea working out.

 

From? My point it, guys like Grossi have been complaining they can't get info, yet he suddenly keeps getting tips about who CLE is gonna draft and that they will trade Quinn. Seems a bit off to me that the front office is tight lipped about everything else they have done, but this info leaks.

[Guest Masters]

Here Mik

 

Tony Grossi's blog: Cleveland Browns passing on Michael Crabtree

by Tony Grossi/Plain Dealer Reporter Wednesday April 22, 2009, 10:41 AM

CLEVELAND -- The Browns have all but crossed off Michael Crabtree as a candidate for the No. 5 overall pick, said a source.

 

The Texas Tech receiver brought a diva attitude on his visit to the club facility last week and did not impress coach Eric Mangini and others, the source said. In fact, Crabtree was described by some in the building as "not nice." After Crabtree left, Mangini secured last-minute workouts with borderline first-round receivers Hakeem Nicks of North Carolina, Kenny Britt of Rutgers and Mohamed Massaquoi of Georgia.

 

* No, Derek Anderson did not have surgery on his left knee in the offseason. So why wouldn't Browns GM George Kokinis just admit it in his pre-draft press conference this week? It's a mandate from Mangini to not even acknowledge questions about surgeries. Mangini jumped all over Kokinis when Kokinis let it slip in an interview prior to the NFL combine in February that running back Jamal Lewis had routine arthroscopic surgery to "clean up" an ankle. Mangini does not even intend to speak the letters MRI if a player, in fact, has had the routine exam.

 

* Crabtree might not even be the first receiver taken in the draft. Seattle (fourth) and Cincinnati (sixth) are expected to fill greater needs on the offensive line. Oakland (seventh) is enamored with the speed of Missouri's Jeremy Maclin. Jacksonville (eighth) has been burned so many times by first-round receivers, they are gunshy to take another. It's quite possible that Alabama tackle Andre Smith, who turned off so many coaches at the NFL combine, will be taken ahead of Crabtree.

 

* Boston College defensive tackle B.J. Raji is back on the rise after reports of a positive drug test proved false. He's very much in the mix with the Browns at No. 5. Drafting Raji might result in more four-man fronts for the Browns. Also, Shaun Rogers would move to right end in the base 3-4 front. If the Browns pass him up, Raji is not expected to get past Jacksonville at No. 8 or Green Bay, for sure, at No. 9.

 

* New Orleans sees Ohio State's Malcolm Jenkins as a free safety and is expected to take him at No. 14.

 

* The first USC linebacker will go to Houston at No. 15. But which one? Either Brian Cushing or Clay Matthews, but not Rey Maualuga.

 

I had read it. I think it is all reporter speculation.

 

[Guest Masters]

I agree with the Peen, having Raji and Rogers means you have 2 guys on the D-line that you have to double team, which means 4 linemen will have to be used to block two guys, I don't care how bad our linebackers are, with one free linemen to block whoever else is rushing, that leaves a lot of opportunity for the linebackers to run free to the QB

 

But CLE just tried this approach, and most on here pointed out last year you can't run a 3-4 with 2 guys above 320~330 sitting on the line. It doesn't work.

[Riffer X]

But CLE just tried this approach, and most on here pointed out last year you can't run a 3-4 with 2 guys above 320~330 sitting on the line. It doesn't work.

 

Mik I said in another thread that you must not have seen that the problem with your theory is in essence you're comparing Rogers at DE to FatSmith and an overweight and hurt Williams playing his first year at DE. Totally different scenariio with Rogers out there and Robaire and a healthy and thin downed Williams rotating.

[Guest Masters]

Mik I said in another thread that you must not have seen that the problem with your theory is in essence you're comparing Rogers at DE to FatSmith and an overweight and hurt Williams playing his first year at DE. Totally different scenariio with Rogers out there and Robaire and a healthy and thin downed Williams rotating.

 

I did miss that, sorry. Yes and no. It's still about guys that aren't going to get around the edge or do much of anything in passing situation. You still get someone new at trying to play DE. Trying to put Rogers and Raji together on a 3-4 line is a recipe for failure in my opinion. If CLE goes that route, they should just go to a 4-3 and call it a day.

[Riffer X]

I did miss that, sorry. Yes and no. It's still about guys that aren't going to get around the edge or do much of anything in passing situation. You still get someone new at trying to play DE. Trying to put Rogers and Raji together on a 3-4 line is a recipe for failure in my opinion. If CLE goes that route, they should just go to a 4-3 and call it a day.

 

Rogers was beating triple teams last year and you don't think he can't destroy at DE? Don't get the logic.

[Guest Masters]

Perhaps Grossi got tired of not getting any info and broke into Berea after hours and planted bugs all over the facility?

 

Just a thought...

 

LOL... I got a good mental visual of that.

 

Anything is possible. But I think he is hearing what CLE wants him and other to hear.

[Guest Masters]

Rogers was beating triple teams last year and you don't think he can't destroy at DE? Don't get the logic.

 

I don't think he can get around the edge when taking on a T and a G. A little different than always bull rushing a C and G.

[Riffer X]

I don't think he can get around the edge when taking on a T and a G. A little different than always bull rushing a C and G.

 

I disagree. Rogers is as athletic as they get and we're talking 3/4 end here not 4/3. Plus, he could probably be talked into dropping some Lbs given that I'm sure he'd be ecstatic to make the move.

 

Agree with your premise but not the specifics in this case. Good 3/4 ends are a mother to find and I think Rogers could dominate there and also take tremendous pressure off of whoever ends up playing OLB next to him. Also, these guys will probably go 4/3 40% of the time anyway and those two could be devastating next to each other.

 

To me, the only question is whether or not the guy's character is more like Pocket Change Warren that worries me.

[Guest Masters]

I disagree. Rogers is as athletic as they get and we're talking 3/4 end here not 4/3. Plus, he could probably be talked into dropping some Lbs given that I'm sure he'd be ecstatic to make the move.

 

Agree with your premise but not the specifics in this case. Good 3/4 ends are a mother to find and I think Rogers could dominate there and also take tremendous pressure off of whoever ends up playing OLB next to him. Also, these guys will probably go 4/3 40% of the time anyway and those two could be devastating next to each other.

 

To me, the only question is whether or not the guy's character is more like Pocket Change Warren that worries me.

 

Rogers is athletic. But it is usually followed by "for a guy 340lbs". Seeing as how he was miffed about a weight requirement earlier this offseason (allegedly), I don't see him being ecstatic to have to lose weight.

 

3-4 ends are tough to find, unless you are PIT or NE. While I see him taking some blocking off an OLB rushing, they are now going to have to get around Rogers giant body and the two guys blocking him. If Rogers is taking on a T, I'd expect to see Rogers on the T (who will always be more agile) and getting chipped by a TE. Which should give enough time to prevent him from getting to the QB before he gets the ball off. I mean people talk about Wimbley not having moves from the edge, well Rogers is gonna have less imo (considering he's never played DE in any scheme).

 

Now, as you pointed out CLE will play a lot of 4-3 or 4-2 lineups in passing downs, and sure Rogers and Raji would be great taking up 3 to 4 of the guys blocking. But what about those running downs when you can take the ball to the edge. You are gonna beat Rogers to the edge. He ain't NFL RB fast/quick. I just don't see it working with two mountains.

 

Character is a concern too. I remember the last questionable character player CLE took in the 1st round from BC.

[Guest AdaM]

Rogers is athletic. But it is usually followed by "for a guy 340lbs". Seeing as how he was miffed about a weight requirement earlier this offseason (allegedly), I don't see him being ecstatic to have to lose weight.

 

3-4 ends are tough to find, unless you are PIT or NE. While I see him taking some blocking off an OLB rushing, they are now going to have to get around Rogers giant body and the two guys blocking him. If Rogers is taking on a T, I'd expect to see Rogers on the T (who will always be more agile) and getting chipped by a TE. Which should give enough time to prevent him from getting to the QB before he gets the ball off. I mean people talk about Wimbley not having moves from the edge, well Rogers is gonna have less imo (considering he's never played DE in any scheme).

 

Now, as you pointed out CLE will play a lot of 4-3 or 4-2 lineups in passing downs, and sure Rogers and Raji would be great taking up 3 to 4 of the guys blocking. But what about those running downs when you can take the ball to the edge. You are gonna beat Rogers to the edge. He ain't NFL RB fast/quick. I just don't see it working with two mountains.

 

Character is a concern too. I remember the last questionable character player CLE took in the 1st round from BC.

 

 

I duno, Rogers to me is a guy who would love to rush the QB, he's just trapped in a NT's body.

 

I think Rogers would be a lot more motivated at DE than NT because he would have more glamor on his job description and be able to go after the QB more.

[Guest Masters]

I duno, Rogers to me is a guy who would love to rush the QB, he's just trapped in a NT's body.

 

I think Rogers would be a lot more motivated at DE than NT because he would have more glamor on his job description and be able to go after the QB more.

 

I'd grant the glamour part. But he also just saw Haynesworth get that same glamour as a DT.

[Guest AdaM]

I'd grant the glamour part. But he also just saw Haynesworth get that same glamour as a DT.

 

 

Well he's stuck in a 3-4 he's gotta settle for DE in this scenario.

[Guest Masters]

Well he's stuck in a 3-4 he's gotta settle for DE in this scenario.

 

Except that in a 3-4 the NT is about the most glamorous on the line. 3-4 DE aren't exactly known for racking up the sacks or getting paid big. That goes to the OLB in the 3-4.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

Except that in a 3-4 the NT is about the most glamorous on the line. 3-4 DE aren't exactly known for racking up the sacks or getting paid big. That goes to the OLB in the 3-4.

 

and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.

[Guest Aloysius]

and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.

This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.

 

Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.

 

Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.

[Guest Masters]

This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.

 

Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.

 

Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.

 

I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.

[Guest Aloysius]

I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.

Well, Ytown's point was about the specific type of two gap 3-4 that we run, which is distinct from the Phillips and LeBeau versions of the 3-4. One of the Steelers' reporters at Scout.com wrote a good piece a while back about how the Steelers' brand of 3-4 allows them to draft d-linemen later. I'll try to dig it up (EDIT: Posted the article here).

 

Also, you're right about these guys not coming around often, but that's the whole point. According to Bill Parcells' "Planet Theory", guys who are both huge & freakishly athletic are so rare that you have to take one if he's available. There may not be a guy who fits the bill in this year's draft, but Mangini wouldn't simply pass on one because the guy would play 3-4 DE.

[Flugel]

McShay agrees with Grossi. He changed his pick and He now says Maclin will be the first WR taken. The Raiders.

 

And Flugel's been saying Maclin over Crabtree long before Grossi and MockShay.

Reasons?

1) Speed

2) Count HOW MANY of Crabtree's highlights (EVEN THE GAME WINNING TD RECEPTION vrs TEXAS) you can actually count more than 1 DB in the picture. That is BECAUSE Mike Leach used a 4 WR spread to prevent a defenseless conference from doubling his BEST WR. The NEXT level will be a bigger adaptation process than people think for him.

3) Gifted return man as well

4) Foot injuries are unpredictable. Remember Keith Byars' first couple years in the NFL? Neither does he because he was injured and his career didn't really kick off until his 3rd year if memory serves me right.

 

- Tom F.

[Oldcrow1945]

And Flugel's been saying Maclin over Crabtree long before Grossi and MockShay.

Reasons?

1) Speed

2) Count HOW MANY of Crabtree's highlights (EVEN THE GAME WINNING TD RECEPTION vrs TEXAS) you can actually count more than 1 DB in the picture. That is BECAUSE Mike Leach used a 4 WR spread to prevent a defenseless conference from doubling his BEST WR. The NEXT level will be a bigger adaptation process than people think for him.

3) Gifted return man as well

4) Foot injuries are unpredictable. Remember Keith Byars' first couple years in the NFL? Neither does he because he was injured and his career didn't really kick off until his 3rd year if memory serves me right.

 

- Tom F.

 

I think I like Maclin just as much or even better too. The kid is blazing quick. Makes people miss all over the place.

 

But as far as injuries go, remember, Maclin blew out his knew. There are injury concerns for both guys.

 

[YtownBrownsBacker]

Well, Ytown's point was about the specific type of two gap 3-4 that we run, which is distinct from the Phillips and LeBeau versions of the 3-4. One of the Steelers' reporters at Scout.com wrote a good piece a while back about how the Steelers' brand of 3-4 allows them to draft d-linemen later. I'll try to dig it up (EDIT: Posted the article here).

 

Also, you're right about these guys not coming around often, but that's the whole point. According to Bill Parcells' "Planet Theory", guys who are both huge & freakishly athletic are so rare that you have to take one if he's available. There may not be a guy who fits the bill in this year's draft, but Mangini wouldn't simply pass on one because the guy would play 3-4 DE.

 

I think the only real solid 5 technique DE in this draft is Jackson. I don't think he is worth a #5. But, you are right about not passing on a super talent who can play in a 2 gap 3-4. But that's a guy who is big, strong and athletic and can use his hands to shed blocks really well. For me, that isn't Raji and it wouldn't be Rogers unless he could get down to about 295 and keep his strength.

[Flugel]

This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.

 

Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.

 

Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.

 

True BUT NE didn't switch to a 3-4 immediately upon BB's arrival. They did so when they experienced some injury volumes along their dline and things got thin up front. Ted Johnson was their starting MLBer back when they ran the 4-3.

 

IMO, Richard Seymour was prolly THE most unique draft choice for NE in the sense that he was a DT at GA with the build and athleticism to be a DE or a DT at the NFL level. Talk about your ideal 3-4 guy. It doesn't get ANY better than that. I thought he was the best downlinemen in the league on the defensive side of the ball for about 4 years until wear and tear caught up with him.

 

I don't know what rounds Pittsburgh drafted DEs Brett Keisel and Aaron Smith in or how much megabucks they make. I DO think their role in the scheme CREATES the ideal opportunities for Harrison and Woodley when sacks are needed off the edge.

- Tom F.

[Earl34]

Listening to "The B-Team" on Mad Dog Radio (Sirius) today, they were firing off headlines and making comments. They got to the one about Crabtree being a "not nice" guy and they TOTALLY lambasted Mangini (let me guess guys....you DON'T like the man). They went on and on about how Mangini doesn't like anyone with personality.

 

Of course, Michael Crabtree did come in for his visit and basically irritate everyone in the building. I've heard from friends at Tech that he runs with a really rough crowd and his extracurricular activities may be cause for concern. (Pacman, anyone?).

 

Personally, I am not bothered if red flags come up and a team with the #5 pick chooses to take him off of their boards. When Pacman Jones was at WVU, people KNEW he was bad news and woe was unto those that drafted him. Does this bother anyone if the "due diligence" resulted in the team being put off by a guy who could be a pariah?

[cambridgeho]

If you need someone for defense, who cares how much you spend if you really need the guy. where is C.j. Mosley going to fit into all of this, is he just here to back up?

 

DE- smith, william, mosley

NT- smith, rogers

 

when you look at it on paper we have some depth at DE but no studs, this year in the draft also lacks that.

moving rogers probably wont work, it sounds badass though.

curry is not the answer but an upgrade

orakpo could be Great in time

 

please of dear lord, dont draft Sanchez and not be able to trade one of our qbs.

 

Take Maclin, he has great all around qualities as a player. He and Braylon would be nasty the next 2 years,

also he could spell Mr. Cribbs of some kickoff duties since he will be playing every spot on the team.

 

Damn im getting excited, too bad i cant watch the draft, heading to Talladega at noon.

 

 

 

[Oldcrow1945]

Damn im getting excited, too bad i cant watch the draft, heading to Talladega at noon.

 

Wow! You lucky dog!

 

That race and Daytona are my two favorite races. Have a great time and be careful.

 

Do you pull for any driver?

 

My daughter has her prom and I Have to be there for the grand march at 6:30. So I think I'll just record the draft and the nationwide race and try not to hear any news until I've watched it all.....So much to do....So little time.

[cambridgeho]

Clint Bowyer is my racer for now, i hate how this shit has turned into other sports by having free agents now. I used to like ryan newman but something happened to him and his abilities. have a great time at your daughters prom, 10 more years I will be in your shoes.