The Gipper Posted April 14, 2017 Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 Now who is putting thoughts inside the FO minds? Or is that just an opinion? It is attempt to try to interpret what Polan said about the Browns. HE was the one trying to get inside the minds of the Browns FO. So, go ahead and tell me what YOU interpret about Polian's statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 14, 2017 Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 Not that you're wrong generally speaking... Gip obviously has a major blind spot when it comes to projecting his views... but I don't see it as the case here. Here I see him genuinely asking a question. A question I'd yet to ask. Had I not, then I would not have spent 20 minutes formulating an answer seen above. A five minute, one-part answer that grew when I had an "oh shit" moment. I think you gave a very good answer to a complex issue. But I don't have a blind spot...quite the contrary. If anyone here has been open to different scenarios, it is I. I may want a guy....but I have been open to all other possibilities. The trade up, the trade down, taking this guy, taking that guy. And at the same time being the one to acknowledge that what I, you, or anyone on here thinks does not amount to a cabbage fart in the opinion of the Browns FO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 14, 2017 Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 Many times, I get no sense of "openess". Some of those times the odor of Devil's Advocacy, a/k/a shit stirring, is quite strong... Some of the other times, when you accuse someone of doing something you yourself do in the same post, then I think blindspot is more than applicable... For course, that's just my opinion... and a few dozen others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted April 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 So we're really trying to get the 1 AND the 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 14, 2017 Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 14, 2017 Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 Many times, I get no sense of "openess". Because you see things in tunnel vision and only through the scope of your own opinion likely. If you disagree with me, or I disagree with you, ergo I am not "open"....when in fact, the opposite is true. Some of those times the odor of Devil's Advocacy, a/k/a shit stirring, is quite strong... That could happen occasionally, certainly. Some of the other times, when you accuse someone of doing something you yourself do in the same post, then I think blindspot is more than applicable... Being an asshole? Sure I tell people they are an asshole. And I admit that I am an asshole at times. But at least I admit it. For course, that's just my opinion... and a few dozen others... Again....it all because I disagree with your opinion. And apparently you can't stomach that....and you can't let it go and you extrapolate that to anything and everything I do. Its called being small. Of course I could probably nit pick, and second guess and gripe and harp on many of your posts and much of your attitude, but I generally don't....except possibly in reaction to the nitpicking and griping and harping and second guessing to my posts. So, if you think you are fucking infallible, it is not the case. Its just that I am not interested enough to spend my time nitpicking and griping and harping about your inaccuracies or about your opinions. I point out that an opinion is an opinion when it is an opinion, and that is about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 14, 2017 Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 Of course I could probably nit pick, and second guess and gripe and harp on many of your posts and much of your attitude, but I generally don't....except possibly in reaction to the nitpicking and griping and harping and second guessing to my posts. So, if you think you are fucking infallible, it is not the case. Its just that I am not interested enough to spend my time nitpicking and griping and harping about your inaccuracies or about your opinions. I point out that an opinion is an opinion when it is an opinion, and that is about it. OK... I tried... it's just too fucking hard. When you purposely (I can only assume) conflate my opinion observations of you with our many other dissenting views opinions and then attack... that's it. Back to the Ghoolie zone... but before you go, here's a parting thought for you... When an opinion is shared by an overwhelming majority, while it is still not a fact... it's as close to a certainty as an opinion can get. ____________________________ Edited for word choice.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted April 14, 2017 Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 And here is someone else's opinion about the Browns and their possible non-consensus this close to the draft. Believe me it is shared by many in Aggieland who do not want Garrett to every see the light of day in the Factory of Sadness on the Lake. The risks are too high that he gets all the blame if they continue their screwed up ways of playing football. I'm one of the few that thinks he can be a major building block of a deep turnaround. I catch a lot of shit from friends who would rather see him in SF. I defend the Browns more often than you might otherwise believe. Those folks would be elated if the Browns fuck this up and take a pass on him. https://www.seccountry.com/texas-am/myles-garrett-cleveland-browns-nfl-draft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 14, 2017 Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 OK... I tried... it's just too fucking hard. When you purposely (I can only assume) conflate my opinion of you with our many other dissenting views and then attack... that's it. Back to the Ghoolie zone... but before you go, here's a parting thought for you... When an opinion is shared by an overwhelming majority, while it is still not a fact... it's as close to a certainty as an opinion can get. It is still just an opinion. And an opinion is not fact. And again.....my point is proven. You apparently are intolerant of other's differring opinions. And putting me on ignore is your loss, not mine. But congratulations on living in the land where everyone smells each other's butts and thinks it is roses. To summarize with a parting thought: You think, apparently that Garrett is infallible, that he is Jesus Christ almighty and there cannot be any faith but faith in that. I say, maybe, but maybe not. I do not share your religion of certainty. I am a doubting Thomas. (even Christianity had one of those) I say that MT is a risk worth taking, as a franchise QB potential. But I don't think he walks on water. I acknowledge his fallibility. I say that getting both he and Garrett if it can be worked out would be the prime objective. But you seem to be of a religion of extremists.....and can't abide dissent. But, you see, I live by the creed of my avatar: In paraphrase: The Gipper Abides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 14, 2017 Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 And here is someone else's opinion about the Browns and their possible non-consensus this close to the draft. Believe me it is shared by many in Aggieland who do not want Garrett to every see the light of day in the Factory of Sadness on the Lake. The risks are too high that he gets all the blame if they continue their screwed up ways of playing football. I'm one of the few that thinks he can be a major building block of a deep turnaround. I catch a lot of shit from friends who would rather see him in SF. I defend the Browns more often than you might otherwise believe. Those folks would be elated if the Browns fuck this up and take a pass on him. https://www.seccountry.com/texas-am/myles-garrett-cleveland-browns-nfl-draft He could be a building block. So could others. In fact, many others have to be. One defender is not the be all and end all. We would also need that QB. That is all....except: You should know by now that Browns fans don't give a shit what fans of other teams think....be they 49er fans, Aggie fans, and particularly Steeler/Ravens/Bengal fans. (though...they may be right about the kind of pressure that would be on him) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyceRolls Posted April 14, 2017 Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 Of course I could probably nit pick, and second guess and gripe and harp on many of your posts and much of your attitude. Really, you could?! The Gipper I know would never nit pick anything! BTW the browns moved to Baltimore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 14, 2017 Report Share Posted April 14, 2017 . Really, you could?! The Gipper I know would never nit pick anything! BTW the browns moved to Baltimore. Stating actual substantial facts is not nitpicking. It is stating substantial facts. Nit picking, on the order that some do here, would be like saying: " WTF is wrong with you....the name of the car is Rolls Royce, not Royce Rolls." When, of course, we know that you are doing a play on words. Or nitpicking would be like not remembering 5 years later that in Brandon Weeden's 15 game rookie season that he missed a later game, not the first game of the season. One guy here went apoplectic over the fact that I didn't accurately remember that piece of minutiae. I mean, that would be like me having a conniption fit over the fact that one of you got an answer wrong on one of my trivia quizzes. I mean, MY GOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 . Really, you could?! The Gipper I know would never nit pick anything! BTW the browns moved to Baltimore. Ha! Yes they did..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 Ha! Yes they did..... Then why are they still here? In case you didn't notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 Then why are they still here? In case you didn't notice. I only see posers..... Im home right now......but that doesnt mean I didnt go to work yesterday..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 I only see posers..... Im home right now......but that doesnt mean I didnt go to work yesterday..... So, how would things be different really say, if instead of Modell trying to move the Browns, he had sold them instead to Al Lerner. We still would have had Randy and what came during his tenure. In case you haven't seen all these time travel/quantum physics shows....history is very, very hard to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 In case you haven't seen all these time travel/quantum physics shows....history is very, very hard to change. and yet....you've spent 1037 pages and 14, 893 words trying to do just that..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 and yet....you've spent 1037 pages and 14, 893 words trying to do just that..... And through it all, I have it right. The Browns franchise never moved. Only the NFL, the Cities of Cleveland and Baltimore, the States of Maryland and Ohio, the principal parties involved, and the court systems of this nation agree with me. And who agrees with you? Ghoolie!! (Gotcha!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 And who agrees with you? Ghoolie!! (Gotcha!) Got me?.....hahaha...... this is a football board and, based upon football opinion alone(and the history of what Ive read here), Id rather have Ghoolie agree..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 Got me?.....hahaha...... this is a football board and, based upon football opinion alone(and the history of what Ive read here), Id rather have Ghoolie agree..... Only because you wish to be contrary, not accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyceRolls Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 And Gip doesn't understand the difference between a franchise and a team. the TEAM moved, you can keep all your legal technicality, intellectual property rat shit. When people talk about the Bernie Kosar teams in Cleveland, they aren't talking about logos or mascots or stats or records. They're talking about the actual talent, the players, the coaches, the moving parts that dictate the product on the field. The TEAM moved to Baltimore. I know you'll respond as if it's a black and white matter, but not everyone uses the same criteria that you do, and that's ok, Gipper.....it's ok No need to reply with the obligatory Gipper gaslight, hitler-dick ego trip that will spin us into a nuclear winter of stale Browns board dick measuring but of course we all know what's coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Bone Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 If the Browns never moved, then I must have had a 5 year long stroke..... The Browns v2.0 - Since 1995. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 And Gip doesn't understand the difference between a franchise and a team. the TEAM moved, you can keep all your legal technicality, intellectual property rat shit. Yes, I do...and that is EXACTLY my point. Again, I use the House analogy. The franchise is the house. The players are the furniture. Just because you move the furniture, and discard half of it during your move does not mean the house moved. When people talk about the Bernie Kosar teams in Cleveland, they aren't talking about logos or mascots or stats or records. They're talking about the actual talent, the players, the coaches, the moving parts that dictate the product on the field. The TEAM moved to Baltimore. I know you'll respond as if it's a black and white matter, but not everyone uses the same criteria that you do, and that's ok, Gipper.....it's ok Except, even by your criteria, ...none of the coaches went....half the players didn't go...and I don't know what you mean by "the moving parts", and those were all discarded. They discarded the beds, the stove, the fridge....and moved a few couches and chairs. And they replaced them with other fungibles. No need to reply with the obligatory Gipper gaslight, hitler-dick ego trip that will spin us into a nuclear winter of stale Browns board dick measuring but of course we all know what's coming. What is coming is simply accurate truth....not apparently that you care about those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 If the Browns never moved, then I must have had a 5 year long stroke..... The Browns v2.0 - Since 1995. Why is it that simple accuracy is so difficult to understand. I really don't think it takes a law degree to understand this, though certainly legalities have been at play. You have an entity that issues "franchises". It can be Burger Kings, Snap On Tools, Auto Dealerships....or NFL teams. The entitiy that controls...in this case, the NFL, issues "franchises". They have done this since 1920. Some franchises have come (Houston Texans the newest)...and some franchises have gone (The Dallas Texans in 1952 the last NFL franchise to go under. The NFL has a Cleveland Browns franchise, which it accepted into the league in 1950 after it was created in the AAFC in 1946. That franchise has continued as a franchise unabated since that time. That franchise has never been "suspended". It took a 3 year recess from playing, but the franchise operated continuously...with offices on Lou Groza Blvd. in Berea Ohio all that time. The NFL then created a new Franchise...the Baltimore Ravens franchise in 1996. There was an assignation of certain assets to that new franchise that belonged to the Browns franchise that could not be used by the Browns franchise while on hiatus: player contracts and draft picks specifically. This new franchise was awarded in similar process as the creation of the Jacksonville Jaguars and the Carolina Panthers just a couple of years earlier. The ownership of this new franchise was awarded to Art Modell...based on agreements entered into by him and other parties. So,, Art Modell became the owner of a different NFL franchise.......an action, by the way that was NOT unprecedented: Once upon a time Robert Irsay owned the LA Rams,and Carroll Rosenbloom owned the Baltimore Colts. In the 70s they traded franchises and each became the owner of a second franchise. Before that, Art Rooney sold out his interest in the Pittsburgh Steelers, then became a co-owner of the Philadelphia Eagles. After a year or two he changed his mind....and repurchased the Steelers from the guy that he had sold them to. And the Cleveland Browns have not been the only franchise to take a hiatus: The Cleveland Rams did so for one year, and so did those Steelers......years when they "merged" with the Eagles and Cardinals. So, look, nothing is really new under the sun. Factors associated with the Browns "move" were not unprecedented. The franchise stayed. The house stayed on it foundation. It just got sold and refurnished after a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Bone Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 Guess I did have a 5 year stroke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 And here is someone else's opinion about the Browns and their possible non-consensus this close to the draft. Believe me it is shared by many in Aggieland who do not want Garrett to every see the light of day in the Factory of Sadness on the Lake. The risks are too high that he gets all the blame if they continue their screwed up ways of playing football. I'm one of the few that thinks he can be a major building block of a deep turnaround. I catch a lot of shit from friends who would rather see him in SF. I defend the Browns more often than you might otherwise believe. Those folks would be elated if the Browns fuck this up and take a pass on him. https://www.seccountry.com/texas-am/myles-garrett-cleveland-browns-nfl-draft How many of them still think we fucked up Manziel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 No need to reply with the obligatory Gipper gaslight, hitler-dick ego trip that will spin us into a nuclear winter of stale Browns board dick measuring but of course we all know what's coming. ... and he thinks I'm harsh... Guess I did have a 5 year stroke Anyone who can stroke it for 5 years running should be called, Sir... .. and you can blame Royce for bringing up "dicks"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 How many of them still think we fucked up Manziel? Vast majority originally thought he was a fool to ask for Cleveland, but they also now think he was his own worst enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 15, 2017 Report Share Posted April 15, 2017 More words of wisdom from Terrry Pluto... Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' quarterbacks and more quarterbacks By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer on April 15, 2017 at 7:10 AM, updated April 15, 2017 at 7:13 AM CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Is it safer to pick someone other than a quarterback at No. 1 in the NFL Draft? The obvious answer is, "It depends what quarterbacks are available." I checked the last 20 years of drafts, and here is what happened to non-quarterbacks who were the top picks: 1996: Keyshawn Johnson picked by the New York Jets. He made three Pro Bowls, caught 814 passes. He was an excellent receiver for years. 1997: Orlando Pace picked by the Rams. The Ohio State product was selected to the Hall of Fame in 2016 because of his great play as a left tackle. 2000: Courtney Brown picked by the Browns. Browns fans know the story of the defensive end from Penn State. He had decent rookie year. Major injuries followed, including microfracture knee surgery. He had 4.5 sacks in his first five games of 2001 before suffering his first big knee injury. He played 60 games in six years, never was the same after that initial knee problem. 2006: Mario Williams picked by Houston. He has made four Pro Bowls. He was a very good pass rusher from 2006-14. 2008: Jake Long picked by Miami. The left tackle made four Pro Bowls in his first four seasons. But major injuries began in 2012. His career hit a wall after that. 2013: Eric Fisher picked by Kansas City. The left tackle has not made a Pro Bowl. He had a slow start to his career but has developed into a good starter. The Chiefs re-signed him to a four-year, $48 million extension in 2016. At that point, he was the highest-paid offensive lineman in the NFL. 2014: Jadeveon Clowney picked by Houston. He made the 2016 Pro Bowl. He had knee problems as a rookie, starting only two games. It wasn't until 2016 that he began to show why the Texans made him the top pick. He made second-team All-NFL by Associated Press. He's only 24, so more good stuff should be coming if he stays healthy. What's the point? 1. Five of the seven non-quarterbacks picked at top of the draft have made Pro Bowls. 2. Fisher was the top pick in the awful 2013 draft. At least he is a viable starter and has been rewarded with a contract extension. Six of the top 10 picks in 2013 are with different teams, including Browns selection of Barkevious Mingo. No. 2 pick Luke Joeckel has had major knee problems. No. 3 pick Dion Jordan has been a nightmare with suspensions, etc. 3. Besides Fisher, the other top pick not to make a Pro Bowl was Courtney Brown. 4. This data makes a strong case for Myles Garrett being the safest move at the top of the draft. That's especially true because the defensive end from Texas A&M is viewed as the consensus best player in the draft by the majority of draft experts. This is not like 2013, when no one was especially sure who to take at No. 1. SKIPPING A QUARTERBACK AT NO. 1 In 2014 (Clowney), the top three quarterbacks picked were Blake Bortles (No. 3, Jacksonville), Johnny Manziel (No. 22, Browns) and Teddy Twatwater (No. 32, Minnesota). Browns fans know the Manziel story. Bortles is struggling as a starter with Jacksonville. Bridgewater showed promise as a starter until suffering a major knee injury last season. In 2013 (Eric Fisher), the top three quarterbacks picked were E.J. Manuel (No. 16, Buffalo), Geno Smith (No. 39, Jets) and Mike Glennon (No. 73, Tampa Bay). Nothing special there. In 2008 (Jake Long), the top three quarterbacks picked were Matt Ryan (No. 3, Atlanta), Joe Flacco (No. 18, Baltimore) and Brian Brohm (No. 56, Packers). Ryan and Flacco have gone to Super Bowls. Both are franchise-type quarterbacks. In 2006 (Mario Williams), the top three quarterbacks picked were Vince Young (No. 3, Tennessee), Matt Leinart (No. 10, Arizona) and Jay Cutler (No. 11, Denver). Cutler has been a long-term starter, but generally very average. In 2000 (Courtney Brown), the top three quarterbacks picked were Chad Pennington (No. 18, Jets), Giovanni Carmazzi (No. 65, San Francisco) and Chris Redman (No. 75, Baltimore). Pennington was a decent starter. The others are very forgettable. In 1997 (Orlando Pace), the top three quarterbacks picked were Jim Druckenmiller (No. 26, San Francisco) Jake Plummer (No. 42, Arizona) and Danny Wuerffel (No, 99, Saints). That was a quarterback disaster. In 1996 (Keyshawn Johnson), the top three quarterbacks picked were Tony Banks (No. 42, Rams), Bobby Hoying (No. 85, Philadelphia) and Jeff Lewis (No. 100, Denver). No starters there. Bottom line: The big miss was in 2008 where Ryan and Flacco would probably now be considered the top players in that draft because of the importance of the position. In 2014, Derek Carr (No. 36, Oakland) has emerged as the best quarterback in that draft. You can find some other quarterbacks deep in various drafts. But in general, skipping the quarterback at No. 1 has worked out for most teams who did so in the last 20 years. http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2017/04/cleveland_browns_have_terry_ta_111.html There's more at the bottom of the linked article. Mostly it's Terry's takes on each of the top, QB prospects in this draft. He starts with... 1. It's taken me a while to decide, but I'm joining the pack of those who think Mitch Trubisky is the best quarterback in this draft. That said, it would be a massive mistake for the Browns to make him the No. 1 pick. I'm in the "Don't think about it, draft Myles Garrett" camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 The following reddit post struck as a really good, well expressed take on all the media swirling about Berea dissension over our choice at #1... anyway... it gave me some peace. I think its painfully obvious that this front office is locked down. Very rarely are any rumours actually leaked from our building. As others have stated, and we've witnessed, nobody heard about the blockbuster Osweiler trade until it actually went down. We also werent connected to any particular free agents. JC Tretter, Britt, and Zeitler were all "surprises". There may have been speculation about Zeitler due to the Hue Jackson connection, but nothing was leaked about our potential targets. Take the '16 NFL draft, the browns were not attached to any particular player. Only players that were believed to be "needs" for our roster. Nobody predicted us trading back twice and nabbing a WR with so many other holes on the roster. (Not saying the pick was bad, just that it was unusual given our team-needs at the time) What im trying to say is, the media knows NOTHING about the Browns situation at #1, and everything thats being reported is total speculation. The #1 pick will almost positively be Myles Garrett. The #12 pick is the more interesting one for all of us, and we could very easily trade back into the top 10 (Which I think is more realistic than trading the #1 rights to Myles Garrett) What we have here for this draft is a clear cut #1 player that could easily find himself in the hall of fame, and then #2-#32 is wildly varying and totally non-uniform in that nobody knows who will be available or who is a "lock" for any team or player. As in, teams picking 2-10, this year more than others, have more than one need that could be filled w/ the BPA. You have to take the clear cut #1 before anything else. My reply.... My reaction... two words... "spot on". And you did not even mention drafting Kess and three more WRs in 2016... four more, if you count Devalve. Who in the press was talking about any of those? The ability of our FO to be so tight-lipped pretty well fits with my organizational take... management by consensus. While there may be dozens of individuals participating in departmental evaluations, the consensus decision process only involves the top one or two from each department. So while staff, scouts, whomever may "talk" to reporters, they at best only know their Department's final "board". Different boards in different departments are more likely than not to emerge... even with a slam-dunk #1 prospect. Thus the reports of FO disagreement, which is easily pumped up to "conflict" for more clicks, can be true at one level, but completely false in the final result. The smaller group that does the consensing, and generate our final board and draft strategy, fully understand the importance of secrecy to their livelihood. Works for me... ... as does taking Garrett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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