On the trade block

[jiggins7919]

20 hours ago, Canton Mike said:

No, I'm not yet sold. Here's why:

1) Gordon...We cannot count on his presence OR solid, every down effort. We can only hope.

2) Coleman...Has proven NOTHING positive. I (flat out) do NOT like this kid.

3) Landry...IS proven & would be a solid addition.

4) Pryor...We'll see

5) Duke...Needs to be utilized more often IF he improves ball security.

6) Njoku & DeValve...Njoku needs to cut down drops & both need to improve blocking.

IMHO, we'll address QB & DB, but WR remains our weak link. I trust Dorsey & staff plus Haley & Hue to address this. A BIG "We'll see".

Mike 

Valid, but pessimistic. Corey was having a decent year until the hand (again), and I can't believe he'll suffer the same fate again. Also, what does Corey look like going against the 3rd cornerback? I mean, you have to assume that the defense has to put their top corner on Gordon, and Landry will command the 2nd rated corner. That leaves the 3rd guy covering Coleman and that's a favorable matchup. 

Obviously Gordon is the wildcard, and we all know it. That's why Pryor is such an important acquisition. It goes without saying that Pryor is no Josh Gordon, but but he provides the similar physical size we'd need, as both Coleman and Landry are of similar stature. Listen, we've all been burned by Josh Gordon more times than we can count, but he's the one guy we have on offense that is a threat to score from anywhere on the field. There's obviously no way to prove this statement, but if Josh Gordon was on a team like the Patriots or Packers, I think he's the best WR in the world (assuming he's not suspended). 

Ultimately, you're totally right. Everything is a big "we'll see", but if things unfold like I want them to, we're going to go from terrible to exceptional in a short period of time. We just absolutely need Josh Gordon, healthy Corey, Pryor, and Jarvis....and we're deadly. I feel it. 

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, jiggins7919 said:

Valid, but pessimistic. Corey was having a decent year until the hand (again), and I can't believe he'll suffer the same fate again. Also, what does Corey look like going against the 3rd cornerback? I mean, you have to assume that the defense has to put their top corner on Gordon, and Landry will command the 2nd rated corner. That leaves the 3rd guy covering Coleman and that's a favorable matchup. 

Obviously Gordon is the wildcard, and we all know it. That's why Pryor is such an important acquisition. It goes without saying that Pryor is no Josh Gordon, but but he provides the similar physical size we'd need, as both Coleman and Landry are of similar stature. Listen, we've all been burned by Josh Gordon more times than we can count, but he's the one guy we have on offense that is a threat to score from anywhere on the field. There's obviously no way to prove this statement, but if Josh Gordon was on a team like the Patriots or Packers, I think he's the best WR in the world (assuming he's not suspended). 

Ultimately, you're totally right. Everything is a big "we'll see", but if things unfold like I want them to, we're going to go from terrible to exceptional in a short period of time. We just absolutely need Josh Gordon, healthy Corey, Pryor, and Jarvis....and we're deadly. I feel it. 

While I enjoy your ambition and passion - T Pryor is just a diluted version of Josh Gordon in the sense of the types of routes he's best at/limited to in a playbook. Not anything really emphasizing change of direction or getting open immediately.  Some will scuff at such a comment but Gordon hasn't meant ski-wat to this franchise winning. For example, he joined a 6-4 team in progress in 2014 - and we only went 1-4 in the games he played before the coaching staff suspended him for the last game.  His promises we'd see the best version of Josh Gordon we had ever seen amounted only to 1 TD reception and a reception and yardage inventory well below HIS previous norms.  And this year, he didn't score a TD when he returned while our winning percentage remained at 0%. Long story short, since that 2013 Pro Bowl season he had where we only won 4 games - he's only scored 1 TD in his last 10 starts.

While Gordon was suspended, T Pryor had over 1000 yards but only scored 2 TDs.  Then he went to Washington for a forgettable season that included nagging injuries.  Again, he's not a get open quickly kind of guy or someone that can run any route in the playbook.  If we want our QBs getting the ball out quickly - you want a Jarvis Landry or the dream (Antonio Brown).  Landry is now available via trade but there's varying reports changing by the hour about how much we would need to part with.  He was at the top of my grocery list until 1 report said he'd cost 2 first round picks.  That has changed since BUT people prefer a young 26 year old vet with an unmatched work ethic and proven success to an unknown rookie that might be an entitled diva.

I think Coleman will get another camp; but the dropsies, injuries and body catching (especially in traffic) aren't gotta have/keeper qualities.  Sometimes bad habits that have been perfected and repeated over time can't just be coached up as easily as fans would like.  I hope he proves his naysayers wrong but it's hard to hold me breath for the guy. His window of opportunity could be slamming shut fast.

I think the biggest part of improvement moving forward is to be honest in the evaluation process, not to be confused with wishful thinking.  If a guy can't catch he can't catch.  A lot of the guys we drafted that serial killed drives with dropsies that allegedly just needed to be coached up never went on to start for another team. For example, Greg Little or "Bottlegate" star Quincey Morgan. Can you imagine if Cris Carter was a body catcher?  QBs loved throwing to him even when he was well covered because he had the best hands on the planet aside from his size advantage over most corner. When Corey is well covered - what quality makes a QB feel like they have to throw to him anyway?  Nothing at this time unfortunately. 

The WR Corps we've been sentenced to hasn't given us a lot to be confident about.  The GOOD news is we suddenly have a lot of experience in our FO with proven success at the draft, trades and FA.  I'm feeling confident in their ability to change our WR Corps for the reasons I just mentioned.

[mjp28]

13 minutes ago, Flugel said:

 

......The WR Corps we've been sentenced to hasn't given us a lot to be confident about.  The GOOD news is we suddenly have a lot of experience in our FO with proven success at the draft, trades and FA.  I'm feeling confident in their ability to change our WR Corps for the reasons I just mentioned.

 

You can only wonder what Kizer's final numbers would have looked like IF he had better recievers AND maybe a little better play calling and clock management? 

Probably no -0- wins and who knows not picking 1st.....maybe?

[jcam222]

1 hour ago, mjp28 said:

You can only wonder what Kizer's final numbers would have looked like IF he had better recievers AND maybe a little better play calling and clock management? 

Probably no -0- wins and who knows not picking 1st.....maybe?

I want to love  Kizer but honestly he could have been throwing to Moss, Owens and Rice and still sucked IMO 😁

[Canton Mike]

On 3/2/2018 at 9:10 AM, Canton Mike said:

No, I'm not yet sold. Here's why:

1) Gordon...We cannot count on his presence OR solid, every down effort. We can only hope.

2) Coleman...Has proven NOTHING positive. I (flat out) do NOT like this kid.

3) Landry...IS proven & would be a solid addition.

4) Pryor...We'll see

5) Duke...Needs to be utilized more often IF he improves ball security.

6) Njoku & DeValve...Njoku needs to cut down drops & both need to improve blocking.

IMHO, we'll address QB & DB, but WR remains our weak link. I trust Dorsey & staff plus Haley & Hue to address this. A BIG "We'll see".

Mike 

 

10 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

Valid, but pessimistic. Corey was having a decent year until the hand (again), and I can't believe he'll suffer the same fate again. Also, what does Corey look like going against the 3rd cornerback? I mean, you have to assume that the defense has to put their top corner on Gordon, and Landry will command the 2nd rated corner. That leaves the 3rd guy covering Coleman and that's a favorable matchup. 

Obviously Gordon is the wildcard, and we all know it. That's why Pryor is such an important acquisition. It goes without saying that Pryor is no Josh Gordon, but but he provides the similar physical size we'd need, as both Coleman and Landry are of similar stature. Listen, we've all been burned by Josh Gordon more times than we can count, but he's the one guy we have on offense that is a threat to score from anywhere on the field. There's obviously no way to prove this statement, but if Josh Gordon was on a team like the Patriots or Packers, I think he's the best WR in the world (assuming he's not suspended). 

Ultimately, you're totally right. Everything is a big "we'll see", but if things unfold like I want them to, we're going to go from terrible to exceptional in a short period of time. We just absolutely need Josh Gordon, healthy Corey, Pryor, and Jarvis....and we're deadly. I feel it. 

As I posted (at top), I questioned whether or not it would be perceived as pessimistic. That bothered me as I take great pride in being one of the more OPTIMISTIC of Browns' Fans, but this past season I decided to take off my "rose colored glasses" & view things realistically. That lead me to my views above. Also, Sashi left us in a HUGE hole by eliminating positive veteran presence on field, in locker room, & in position rooms which Retarded the development of our young players...guys like McCown, Haden, Hawkins/Benjamin, & Barnidge.

The positives come in the hiring of Dorsey, Highsmith, Wolfe, McCloughan, & Haley. We now have PROVEN guys from WINNING programs building our TEAM, & they WILL!

Mike

[Unsympathetic]

Can't believe the Dolphins only had to give up a 4th and swap 6ths with Rams to get Robert Quinn.. we should have done that deal in a heartbeat.

[jcam222]

4 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

Can't believe the Dolphins only had to give up a 4th and swap 6ths with Rams to get Robert Quinn.. we should have done that deal in a heartbeat.

I'm sure there's a reason he went that cheap. 

[hoorta]

On 3/2/2018 at 1:00 PM, Gunz41 said:

 

If it were me, I'm sure I would make way more mistakes than good moves, but if Sherman, Thomas, Landry, and Honey Badger were presented for 64, 65, etc in jumping on it

Sherman is coming off an Achilles, and surgery on the other one- 29 years old.  Badger has torn both ACLs, and it looks like the Cardinals will cut him instead of paying his $5 million roster bonus on March 16th. Pass on both. 

Landry for say our #35, done deal. 

[Gunz41]

5 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Sherman is coming off an Achilles, and surgery on the other one- 29 years old.  Badger has torn both ACLs, and it looks like the Cardinals will cut him instead of paying his $5 million roster bonus on March 16th. Pass on both. 

Landry for say our #35, done deal. 

That is fine, I just used them since they were mentioned. But even they have proven to be productive in NFL, and most picks for most teams dont work out.

The point is, people tend to overvalue draft picks who are unproven more than proven players and I just don't get it.

Sherman would worry me more than Badger. Achilles is tough to come back from, but medical has improved so much that players can come back great from ACL. I would certainly trade 4th for Badger

[hoorta]

8 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

That is fine, I just used them since they were mentioned. But even they have proven to be productive in NFL, and most picks for most teams dont work out.

The point is, people tend to overvalue draft picks who are unproven more than proven players and I just don't get it.

Sherman would worry me more than Badger. Achilles is tough to come back from, but medical has improved so much that players can come back great from ACL. I would certainly trade 4th for Badger

If you mean #4 overall for Honey Buns, no way. A fourth round pick is OK. Why even trade anything if the Cards are going to release him in a few days? 

[Gunz41]

Just now, hoorta said:

If you mean #4 overall for Honey Buns, no way. A fourth round pick is OK. Why even trade anything if the Cards are going to release him in a few days? 

4th round. And I mean I would if had to be traded for. 

I am not saying anyone in particular, but I see it all the time, why would we trade #x pick for this guy, we can get so and so there, maybe. 

Pog is so in love with Barkley, and he looks like he SHOULD be a good one, but I would trade that pick to Rams in a heartbeat for Gurley, why? Because he has proven it. 

It certainly won't happen, but if Ridley were to drop to #33, I would snap at the chance to trade him for most teams #1 receiver (use Landry as example). 

It just makes NO sense to me to value draft picks higher than proven players. Jamarcus Russell was the highest rated QB. I dont think Raiders thought he would bust, and had they not taken him, the next QB needy team would have. The Browns didn't think Gilbert would bust, and I hated the pick, because I didn't think he was nearly that good, but he still would have been drafted in 1st. Trent Richardson same thing. Teams dont plan to pick bad players. But with EVERY player, there is a 50% chance he makes it. That's why I would always go with someone proven, if the value makes sense with age, contract, etc.

Me? I would miss more than I would make great deals, and I know I know the game and how to evaluate. But I am a realist and know I dont know as much as these guys. But there are a lot of people in the world who think they are the smartest guy and would make the best decisions 100% of the time. And most times, those people show how little they actually know.

It's not like most of the time it is easy to see a player will or won't be good, there are A LOT of circumstances that effect why a player is great or busts. Use Brady as an example. I imagine there were very few who thought he would be the best out of the bunch, if they had, they would have drafted him higher. It's all about projecting the future, and at that time, he didn't project that way. 

If Scarbough ends up as the best running back in this class, does that mean that Barkley was rated wrong? Not necessarily, because there are A LOT of things that go into it.

End of my explanation lol

[hoorta]

2 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

4th round. And I mean I would if had to be traded for. 

I am not saying anyone in particular, but I see it all the time, why would we trade #x pick for this guy, we can get so and so there, maybe. 

Pog is so in love with Barkley, and he looks like he SHOULD be a good one, but I would trade that pick to Rams in a heartbeat for Gurley, why? Because he has proven it. 

It certainly won't happen, but if Ridley were to drop to #33, I would snap at the chance to trade him for most teams #1 receiver (use Landry as example). 

It just makes NO sense to me to value draft picks higher than proven players. Jamarcus Russell was the highest rated QB. I dont think Raiders thought he would bust, and had they not taken him, the next QB needy team would have. The Browns didn't think Gilbert would bust, and I hated the pick, because I didn't think he was nearly that good, but he still would have been drafted in 1st. Trent Richardson same thing. Teams dont plan to pick bad players. But with EVERY player, there is a 50% chance he makes it. That's why I would always go with someone proven, if the value makes sense with age, contract, etc.

Me? I would miss more than I would make great deals, and I know I know the game and how to evaluate. But I am a realist and know I dont know as much as these guys. But there are a lot of people in the world who think they are the smartest guy and would make the best decisions 100% of the time. And most times, those people show how little they actually know.

It's not like most of the time it is easy to see a player will or won't be good, there are A LOT of circumstances that effect why a player is great or busts. Use Brady as an example. I imagine there were very few who thought he would be the best out of the bunch, if they had, they would have drafted him higher. It's all about projecting the future, and at that time, he didn't project that way. 

If Scarbough ends up as the best running back in this class, does that mean that Barkley was rated wrong? Not necessarily, because there are A LOT of things that go into it.

End of my explanation lol

And it is a fact come draft day, proven players are traded for less value than equivalent draft picks. I doubt Landry is going to garner a first round pick in a trade, and if he was in the draft, knowing what we know, he'd certainly go in the first round.  

[Gunz41]

3 minutes ago, hoorta said:

And it is a fact come draft day, proven players are traded for less value than equivalent draft picks. I doubt Landry is going to garner a first round pick in a trade, and if he was in the draft, knowing what we know, he'd certainly go in the first round.  

Yes I know. Like I said, even though I know the game and can usually evaluate pretty well, I would be horrible at the job lol

[JimboJones]

No way I trade #35 for Landry and his cap hit.  I'd only consider our 3rd (#65) if we can't manage to bring in a Free Agent.

[Gunz41]

3 hours ago, JimboJones said:

No way I trade #35 for Landry and his cap hit.  I'd only consider our 3rd (#65) if we can't manage to bring in a Free Agent.

Ok, so which WR at 35 is better than Landry? And aren't the Browns like 100 million under the cap?

[jiggins7919]

20 hours ago, Canton Mike said:

 

As I posted (at top), I questioned whether or not it would be perceived as pessimistic. That bothered me as I take great pride in being one of the more OPTIMISTIC of Browns' Fans, but this past season I decided to take off my "rose colored glasses" & view things realistically. That lead me to my views above. Also, Sashi left us in a HUGE hole by eliminating positive veteran presence on field, in locker room, & in position rooms which Retarded the development of our young players...guys like McCown, Haden, Hawkins/Benjamin, & Barnidge.

The positives come in the hiring of Dorsey, Highsmith, Wolfe, McCloughan, & Haley. We now have PROVEN guys from WINNING programs building our TEAM, & they WILL!

Mike

In sorry, Mike. Pessimistic wasn't really the best word choice. Statistically, you're probably right in most of what you said. Lol. 

[jiggins7919]

22 hours ago, Flugel said:

While I enjoy your ambition and passion - T Pryor is just a diluted version of Josh Gordon in the sense of the types of routes he's best at/limited to in a playbook. Not anything really emphasizing change of direction or getting open immediately.  Some will scuff at such a comment but Gordon hasn't meant ski-wat to this franchise winning. For example, he joined a 6-4 team in progress in 2014 - and we only went 1-4 in the games he played before the coaching staff suspended him for the last game.  His promises we'd see the best version of Josh Gordon we had ever seen amounted only to 1 TD reception and a reception and yardage inventory well below HIS previous norms.  And this year, he didn't score a TD when he returned while our winning percentage remained at 0%. Long story short, since that 2013 Pro Bowl season he had where we only won 4 games - he's only scored 1 TD in his last 10 starts.

While Gordon was suspended, T Pryor had over 1000 yards but only scored 2 TDs.  Then he went to Washington for a forgettable season that included nagging injuries.  Again, he's not a get open quickly kind of guy or someone that can run any route in the playbook.  If we want our QBs getting the ball out quickly - you want a Jarvis Landry or the dream (Antonio Brown).  Landry is now available via trade but there's varying reports changing by the hour about how much we would need to part with.  He was at the top of my grocery list until 1 report said he'd cost 2 first round picks.  That has changed since BUT people prefer a young 26 year old vet with an unmatched work ethic and proven success to an unknown rookie that might be an entitled diva.

I think Coleman will get another camp; but the dropsies, injuries and body catching (especially in traffic) aren't gotta have/keeper qualities.  Sometimes bad habits that have been perfected and repeated over time can't just be coached up as easily as fans would like.  I hope he proves his naysayers wrong but it's hard to hold me breath for the guy. His window of opportunity could be slamming shut fast.

I think the biggest part of improvement moving forward is to be honest in the evaluation process, not to be confused with wishful thinking.  If a guy can't catch he can't catch.  A lot of the guys we drafted that serial killed drives with dropsies that allegedly just needed to be coached up never went on to start for another team. For example, Greg Little or "Bottlegate" star Quincey Morgan. Can you imagine if Cris Carter was a body catcher?  QBs loved throwing to him even when he was well covered because he had the best hands on the planet aside from his size advantage over most corner. When Corey is well covered - what quality makes a QB feel like they have to throw to him anyway?  Nothing at this time unfortunately. 

The WR Corps we've been sentenced to hasn't given us a lot to be confident about.  The GOOD news is we suddenly have a lot of experience in our FO with proven success at the draft, trades and FA.  I'm feeling confident in their ability to change our WR Corps for the reasons I just mentioned.

I definitely like a lot of what you said, and I do admit to giving Pryor a bit more credit than he possibly deserves, but often times a player's performance is directly correlated with the system he's tied to, and Pryor played well in ours. Was he a dominant player? Not really. Was he someone that could catch the ball and beat press coverage? Yes he was. Don't forget that during much of the 2017 season we didn't have receivers who could beat press coverage, and that really hurt Deshone Kizer. Nobody was open, and defenses just crowded the receivers and jammed everything up. Bigger, faster, stronger targets such as Pryor are able to break free from that, and it might not sound like a huge deal, it kind of is as evidenced by our guys getting owned last year....especially when Corey went down. 

[JimboJones]

15 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

Ok, so which WR at 35 is better than Landry? And aren't the Browns like 100 million under the cap?

Realistically, the Browns won't be contenders for AT LEAST another 2-3 years.  Usually teams that feel they're one or two pieces away from the Super Bowl do those types of moves trading high picks for huge contracts.

Having cap room doesn't mean they should be giving away draft picks and huge contracts just because.  There's also a thing called cap rollover, so when we're actually competing, we can go out and have more money to get those final pieces.

If they want to spend money, the Browns could sign a FREE AGENT like Sammy Watkins for cheaper than Landry and pick up a good slot guy like DJ Moore with that 3rd rounder (if they need a slot guy).  Trading away young, hungry, high picks with cheap salary isn't the answer.

At pick #35, there will be enormous talent available like every year.  Doesn't necessarily have to be a WR.

Keep the high picks, build a solid core then trade for the missing pieces later when we're ready.

[gumby73]

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2018/3/4/17077784/rumor-at-nfl-combine-chiefs-could-have-interest-in-trading-for-qb-deshone-kizer   well, a actual read on trading Kizer

[Gunz41]

4 hours ago, JimboJones said:

Realistically, the Browns won't be contenders for AT LEAST another 2-3 years.  Usually teams that feel they're one or two pieces away from the Super Bowl do those types of moves trading high picks for huge contracts.

Having cap room doesn't mean they should be giving away draft picks and huge contracts just because.  There's also a thing called cap rollover, so when we're actually competing, we can go out and have more money to get those final pieces.

If they want to spend money, the Browns could sign a FREE AGENT like Sammy Watkins for cheaper than Landry and pick up a good slot guy like DJ Moore with that 3rd rounder (if they need a slot guy).  Trading away young, hungry, high picks with cheap salary isn't the answer.

At pick #35, there will be enormous talent available like every year.  Doesn't necessarily have to be a WR.

Keep the high picks, build a solid core then trade for the missing pieces later when we're ready.

What is the odds of find an "enormous" talent in 2nd round? Not high.

Things happen in time, and when the team is ready, they most likely won't have the draft capital then.

Landry is young, is a proven WR who can help the team. The odds are even lower that you find someone close to his production at the same position in 2nd round.

If the odds are finding a good player in the 2nd round is about 25%, probably lower, but then to narrow it down by position probably makes it less than 10%. 

If the player isn't worth it, that is 1 thing, but to think you can find that value of player or enormous talent there is crazy.

17- Malik McDowell

16- Hunter Henry

15- Mario Edwards

14- Joel Bitonio

13- Zach Ertz

12- Courtney Upshaw

 

Last 6 years, 1 Pro Bowler, 2 proven football players, and neither of those would I consider ENORMOUS talent