Darnold at #1?

[Ashtabula]

If you go back I said virtually no coaching and bad coaching in terms of play calling and fundamentals.  Sam was winning and the coach said didn't  want to tinker with a winning formula and pretty much left him alone.  

He played 1 full season of high school qb and 24 games in college.   That is what I am talking about in terms of not having coaching & experience.

Maybe he has not played enough to form a habit that can be coached out of.

 

Since this debates has been about why and how Darnold is the best fit  I was offering my perspective, since I have watched more games and read about his rise than anyone here.

Here's my rankings

against toughest competition:

Baker 1 @ohio st. Georgia 

Darnold 2 ohio st. Bama, ND 2times, @washington last year schedule considered toughest in the cf.

Jackson 3

Rosen 4  no signature wins

Allen 5 played basically nobody

 

Accuracy:

Baker consensus 1 but air raid system

Darnold 2 clutch when the game is on the line.

Rosen 3 haven't  made much clutch throws in victory besides weak A&M game.

Jackson & Allen pickbyour poison

 

Mobility

Jackson 1

Darnold 2a

Allen 2b

Baker 3

Rosen 4

 

Arm talent

Allen is clearly 1 and the rest about the same.

Allen 1

Rosen, darnold, baker, jackson all have nfl arms so no issues here.

 

Mechanics 

Rosen 1

Baker 2

Darnold & allen 3

Jackson 4

 

Intengibles "it" factor

Darnold 1

Baker 2

Jackson 3

Allen 4

Rosen 5

Toughness/not injury prone

Darnold 1

Baker 1

jackson 2 too light

Allen 2

Rosen 3

Citizenship-locker room- leadership

Darnold 1

Jackson 2 won games single handedly.

Baker 2 ran away from cops. Socky led his team to wins

Allen 3 hasn't  done much

Rosen 4 frequently lost against less talented teams.

I would rank

Darnold 1

Baker 2

Rosen 3

Allen 4

Jackson 5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ashtabula]

18 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/30/2018-draft-josh-allen-sam-darnold-tyrod-taylor-browns-bills

Notice how he automatically assumes Browns will take Darnold at 1.   All these articles say this qb is great and that qb is great, however they all say Darnold is clearly #1. Everybody knows #1 is Darnold.  Which means Browns will pick Allen.  

[TexasAg1969]

4 hours ago, Ashtabula said:

Notice how he automatically assumes Browns will take Darnold at 1.   All these articles say this qb is great and that qb is great, however they all say Darnold is clearly #1. Everybody knows #1 is Darnold.  Which means Browns will pick Allen.  

If the Browns take Allen I will throw up and conclude the f'n Browns are still losers. Then I will chant, "Hold that clipboard, hold that clipboard................" Followed by, "Let's go Tyrod, let's go Tyrod........."

I won't like the pick but I will support his development and I think we have the experienced QBs to do it over several years in Taylor and Stanton.

[Nero]

30 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I won't like the pick but I will support his development and I think we have the experienced QBs to do it over several years in Taylor and Stanton.

30, 40?

[TexasAg1969]

4 minutes ago, Nero said:

30, 40?

About the length of time Rodgers held the clipboard at Green Bay.

[Nero]

17 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

About the length of time Rodgers held the clipboard at Green Bay.

I remember Kurt Warner saying that leaving the Packers was the best decission he had ever made. What could have we missed had he waited for Favre!

[gumby73]

6 hours ago, Ashtabula said:

Here's my rankings

against toughest competition:

Baker 1 @ohio st. Georgia 

Darnold 2 ohio st. Bama, ND 2times, @washington last year schedule considered toughest in the cf.

AGREED^^

 

Accuracy:

Baker consensus 1 but air raid system (so, fire the coach). Baker does not hang ball to inside defender.

Darnold 2 clutch when the game is on the line.

 

Mobility

Jackson 1

Darnold 2a

Allen 2b

Baker 3 (Baker is far better than Allen ^^)

Rosen 4

 

Arm talent (have all the arm talent you want. Only matters if it hits it's Targets..Baker was rated #1.)

Allen is clearly 1 and the rest about the same.

Allen 1

Rosen, darnold, baker, jackson all have nfl arms so no issues here.

 

Mechanics (agreed)

Rosen 1

Baker 2

Darnold & allen 3

Jackson 4

 

Intengibles "it" factor  He's got to play in Cleveland..Baker my Far!! ya homer..

Darnold 1

Baker 2

Jackson 3

Allen 4

Rosen 5

Toughness/not injury prone ( Agree..Reason most call Darnold the safest pick. size & age & growing ceiling)

Darnold 1

Baker 1

jackson 2 too light

Allen 2

Rosen 3

Citizenship-locker room- leadership (another So-cal homer call..Who's got the nerve, not the babyface to trash Harrison/Suggs/Tomlin? Sam may Cry 

Darnold 1

Jackson 2 won games single handedly.

Baker 2 ran away from cops. Socky led his team to wins

Allen 3 hasn't  done much

Rosen 4 frequently lost against less talented teams.

I would rank

Darnold 1 BAKER

Baker 2 ROSEN---HAS  simply NO FIT IN frozen CLEVELAND..DORSEY WILL PASS, leaving only Baker or Darnold 

Rosen 3 DARNOLD

Allen 4 ALLEN

Jackson 5 RUDOLPH/Kyle Laletta anybody not named Jackson

 

a ACC opinion.^^^.WE laugh at.. Lamar Jackson could be the next Deshawn Watson in the NFL..Lamar's MoM is his agent.. 

[Ashtabula]

This is what I am talking about in terms of coaching ineptitude in terms of some of his interception issues.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Darnold No. 1 most likely.

[gumby73]

On 3/22/2018 at 7:46 AM, darren15 said:

Happy Easter!! let us pray..

 

On 3/22/2018 at 11:21 AM, The Gipper said:

He has a face only a mother could love.

 

 

On 3/21/2018 at 8:34 PM, Zombo said:

At 4:55 Ash, I've seen Sam Darnold & Big Ben pump fake that defender to bite than complete pass..Not with 8 sacks dancing in his head & turning the ball over like a Pez Dispenser..Watch Greg Cosell change your guys diaper talking Sam Darnold here Ashtabula..

  next..

   

[Tour2ma]

10 hours ago, Ashtabula said:

In this article which is about Mayfield pretty much says Baker and Sam is the most accurate and the rest are far behind.

First... decent post... the one with some attempted detail behind. But you have a tendency to wander off topic, e.g., wandering into a clutch throw count in a section about accuracy. Why do I get the feeling you've not seen anywhere near the throws of any prospect not named Darnold? Anyway...

The solace I have tried to find in the inevitability that is Sam at #1 is that he has posted numbers despite being very flawed. Where I keep getting lost is in the knowledge that the NFL only magnifies flaws.

[jiggins7919]

Has anyone given thought to what happens if Tyrod has a year like he typically does and we win like 6 games? Currently we have Tyrod for 1 year, but if our team goes from 0 wins to 6 in one year, and Tyrod plays well, how do you insert your #1 pick into the lineup? When does our drafted rookie get game experience? We already know the "plan" is to start Tyrod, and if history is any indication, Tyrod should have a pretty decent season. He might throw for 18 tds and 7 picks, while running for another 3-4 scores. If we're able to run the ball at all (hahaha, funny), those numbers could be enough to propel us to a good amount of victories. Also, keep in mind that Tyrod is just playing on a 1 year contract, so he's going to aim to impress and give it his all. 

If our fan base tastes anything CLOSE to .500 football, how do you start anybody else in 2019? I mean, do you HAVE to start the rookie just because you drafted him #1? Tyrod is certainly a safe-style QB, but he didn't exactly have an overwhelming support cast, either. In fact, I'd say that our offensive players are superior to Buffalo's, and that's before the draft. Can Hue and Haley bring Tyrod out of his safety, cautious shell? Can he actually be MORE than a bridge type QB, and what happens then? I feel like people are quickly writing off Tyrod to be just a guy holding the fort until our rookie is ready, but I'm of the belief that he's more than that, and we could have a little predicament in Cleveland. 

Keep in mind, we're 1-31 in 2 years. If a QB comes along and takes us to being competitive, perhaps contending for a wildcard into November, our fans are going to be buying Tyrod jerseys and celebrating the ground he walks on. Don't believe me? Just wait and see if it happens. I realize we can't technically count on Josh Gordon, but he's on our team right now, and so is Jarvis Landry. You add in Duke and Njoku, and even Corey Coleman and Seth Devalve, we have an offense with legitimate weapons a defense actually has to prepare for. Crazy, right? How does a QB like Tyrod perform with a down-field weapon, a premier 3rd down receiver, a shifty RB receiver, and a pass-catching TE? I'm of the mind that he's going to do very well, and THEN what? 

Obviously anything can happen. Teams like the Eagles and Seahawks had no intention of playing THEIR rookie QBs, but it didn't turn out that way. We weren't planning on playing Kessler, but we know how THAT played out. But let's pretend that a plan ACTUALLY works for us. Let's just try to see what a season with Tyrod and the gang looks like, and to me, it looks pretty good. I'll never forget how awful these last few seasons were, and if we truly are a decent team, I'm not going to be in a hurry to play a young guy just because he was drafted #1. 

[Flugel]

28 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

Has anyone given thought to what happens if Tyrod has a year like he typically does and we win like 6 games?

Yes.

Having said that, are you aware he's never won less than 7 games as a starter in spite of not playing all 16 weeks? 

In 2015, he was 7-6 with 20 TD passes to 6 INTs with a passer rating of 99.4 and comp% of 63.7

In 2016, he was 7-8 with 17 TD passes to 6 INTs w/ a passer rating of 89.7 and comp%of 61.7

In 2017, he was 8-6 with 14 TD passes to 4 INTs w/ a passer rating of 89.2 and a comp% of 62.6

If Taylor can give us the same above .500 winning percentage he gave Buffalo while preventing turnovers like an Alex Smith with decent passer ratings and completion percentages; we don't have to race another rookie QB onto the field way before he's ready.  That wouldn't suck so I'm in favor of giving the guy a chance.

On the other hand, if Taylor is as disappointing as you expect him to be (or worse), my guess is there won't be enough reasons to keep the QB talent we invested in at #1 overall off the field in the 2nd half of the 2018 season.   If Taylor gets hurt really early on in the year, that's when I think we'd look to Drew Stanton (which excites me a lot less than Taylor does). 

3rd scenario, the QB we draft at #1 WINS the job in training camp in spite of pre-draft Coach speak.  Seattle once announced Matt Flynn would be their 2014 starter pre-draft before the QB they drafted beat him out in training camp.  Jax also announced Blake Bortles&James wouldn't see the field as a rookie before he started 14 games. We'll have to see how this thing plays out.  While we're doing so, I think Dorsey has us well prepared for many scenarios that could unfold. 

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

are you aware he's never won less than 7 games as a starter in spite of not playing all 16 weeks? 

Are you aware he's never started a game for the Browns?

2 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

Has anyone given thought to what happens if Tyrod has a year like he typically does and we win like 6 games? When does our drafted rookie get game experience?

If our fan base tastes anything CLOSE to .500 football, how do you start anybody else in 2019? I mean, do you HAVE to start the rookie just because you drafted him #1?

Tyrod is certainly a safe-style QB, but he didn't exactly have an overwhelming support cast, either. In fact, I'd say that our offensive players are superior to Buffalo's, and that's before the draft. Can Hue and Haley bring Tyrod out of his safety, cautious shell?

Assuming our rookie QB is ready, then he starts once we are eliminated from playoff contention. Possibly earlier if TT is injured, Stanton loses a couple and we are in "still-in-the-hunt-but-clearly-nothing-left-to-lose" mode.

Because .500 means nothing in the grand scheme?

First, does Tyrod have another mode? Second, of Hue and Haley, only one has experience in trying to get his QB(s) to take more risk... and that did not go too well.

[Ashtabula]

7 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

First... decent post... the one with some attempted detail behind. But you have a tendency to wander off topic, e.g., wandering into a clutch throw count in a section about accuracy. Why do I get the feeling you've not seen anywhere near the throws of any prospect not named Darnold? Anyway...

The solace I have tried to find in the inevitability that is Sam at #1 is that he has posted numbers despite being very flawed. Where I keep getting lost is in the knowledge that the NFL only magnifies flaws.

I agree with what you said about the nfl.  I hqve watched Rosen alot that's  why I was mainly comparing darnold vs Rosen.  

[Ashtabula]

9 hours ago, gumby73 said:

 

 

At 4:55 Ash, I've seen Sam Darnold & Big Ben pump fake that defender to bite than complete pass..Not with 8 sacks dancing in his head & turning the ball over like a Pez Dispenser..Watch Greg Cosell change your guys diaper talking Sam Darnold here Ashtabula..

  next..

   

I have seen the cosell on cowherd before.

[gumby73]

2 minutes ago, Ashtabula said:

I have seen the cosell on cowherd before.

Surely, most have. First.. Welcome to the Browns Board. You seem like you know your So-Cal football. It's good to have your opinion around here draft time..Enjoy.. we got far more issues than just QB here..Browns Fan? or solely fan of Darnold? we still have many Manzel leftovers here..well leftovers that drink with leftovers   

[Flugel]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Are you aware he's never started a game for the Browns?

Are you aware I never said he did?   

[PoeticG]

5 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

Has anyone given thought to what happens if Tyrod has a year like he typically does and we win like 6 games? Currently we have Tyrod for 1 year, but if our team goes from 0 wins to 6 in one year, and Tyrod plays well, how do you insert your #1 pick into the lineup? When does our drafted rookie get game experience? We already know the "plan" is to start Tyrod, and if history is any indication, Tyrod should have a pretty decent season. He might throw for 18 tds and 7 picks, while running for another 3-4 scores. If we're able to run the ball at all (hahaha, funny), those numbers could be enough to propel us to a good amount of victories. Also, keep in mind that Tyrod is just playing on a 1 year contract, so he's going to aim to impress and give it his all. 

If our fan base tastes anything CLOSE to .500 football, how do you start anybody else in 2019? I mean, do you HAVE to start the rookie just because you drafted him #1? Tyrod is certainly a safe-style QB, but he didn't exactly have an overwhelming support cast, either. In fact, I'd say that our offensive players are superior to Buffalo's, and that's before the draft. Can Hue and Haley bring Tyrod out of his safety, cautious shell? Can he actually be MORE than a bridge type QB, and what happens then? I feel like people are quickly writing off Tyrod to be just a guy holding the fort until our rookie is ready, but I'm of the belief that he's more than that, and we could have a little predicament in Cleveland. 

Keep in mind, we're 1-31 in 2 years. If a QB comes along and takes us to being competitive, perhaps contending for a wildcard into November, our fans are going to be buying Tyrod jerseys and celebrating the ground he walks on. Don't believe me? Just wait and see if it happens. I realize we can't technically count on Josh Gordon, but he's on our team right now, and so is Jarvis Landry. You add in Duke and Njoku, and even Corey Coleman and Seth Devalve, we have an offense with legitimate weapons a defense actually has to prepare for. Crazy, right? How does a QB like Tyrod perform with a down-field weapon, a premier 3rd down receiver, a shifty RB receiver, and a pass-catching TE? I'm of the mind that he's going to do very well, and THEN what? 

Obviously anything can happen. Teams like the Eagles and Seahawks had no intention of playing THEIR rookie QBs, but it didn't turn out that way. We weren't planning on playing Kessler, but we know how THAT played out. But let's pretend that a plan ACTUALLY works for us. Let's just try to see what a season with Tyrod and the gang looks like, and to me, it looks pretty good. I'll never forget how awful these last few seasons were, and if we truly are a decent team, I'm not going to be in a hurry to play a young guy just because he was drafted #1. 

This is exactly why I'm lobbying to take a game-changer #1 and then the developmental QB #4. He might not see the field for 3 years if everything works out. 

[D Bone]

34 minutes ago, PoeticG said:

This is exactly why I'm lobbying to take a game-changer #1 and then the developmental QB #4. He might not see the field for 3 years if everything works out. 

^ It's an argument that has merit..... especially if the Browns aren't head over freakin' heals in love with one QB. 

[Ashtabula]

12 hours ago, gumby73 said:

 

 

At 4:55 Ash, I've seen Sam Darnold & Big Ben pump fake that defender to bite than complete pass..Not with 8 sacks dancing in his head & turning the ball over like a Pez Dispenser..Watch Greg Cosell change your guys diaper talking Sam Darnold here Ashtabula..

  next..

   

Baker grows on me more and more as a player but too.many traits that reminds people of Manzeil ..height- air raid offense..percieved attitude...(although pundits like cosell says otherwise).

[Ashtabula]

I agree with this guy wholeheartedly.  But this guy also played qb and also tlaks about hisn  encounter with him at the camp when Sam was a unknown qb.

 

 

[jiggins7919]

14 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Are you aware he's never started a game for the Browns?

Assuming our rookie QB is ready, then he starts once we are eliminated from playoff contention. Possibly earlier if TT is injured, Stanton loses a couple and we are in "still-in-the-hunt-but-clearly-nothing-left-to-lose" mode.

Because .500 means nothing in the grand scheme?

First, does Tyrod have another mode? Second, of Hue and Haley, only one has experience in trying to get his QB(s) to take more risk... and that did not go too well.

Pretty fair points, although getting Kessler to take more risks while throwing to Ricardo Louis and Rashard Higgins is slightly different than risking a pass to Josh Gordon or Jarvis Landry.  But yeah, I figured our rookie would probably get some playing time when/if our team is eliminated from wildcard contention.  That could give us a solid look at him for about 4-6 games or so.

One more thing.  I realize we can't believe a single thing we hear right now, but Peter King wrote (in Monday Morning QB article) that he heard from a "friend from Doresey" that it's going to be Josh Allen at #1, and then Barkely at #4.  I'm fine with Barkley at 4, but if we take Josh Allen at #1, I'm going to need immediate psychiatric care.  Well, more psychiatric care than usual.  I know, I know...it's the NFL silly season.  But...but...I don't want Allen.  AT ALL.  

[Bigalow80]

2 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

One more thing.  I realize we can't believe a single thing we hear right now, but Peter King wrote (in Monday Morning QB article) that he heard from a "friend from Doresey" that it's going to be Josh Allen at #1, and then Barkely at #4.  I'm fine with Barkley at 4, but if we take Josh Allen at #1, I'm going to need immediate psychiatric care.  Well, more psychiatric care than usual.  I know, I know...it's the NFL silly season.  But...but...I don't want Allen.  AT ALL.  

I would start your therapy early. I think the Browns truly believe Tyrod is going to give them 2-3 solid years of qb play. This is why I think Allen is going to be the pick. They will sit him and let him develop. I also think that if the Jets really want Darnold or Rosen, the Browns are going to be open to trading the #1 with them. I still believe this is going to be a draft then swap type of move. 

[Tour2ma]

I love how folks assume 'development" is inevitable...

 

Timing feels wrong to be true, but #106 at left edge of photo sure looks like a young Nick Foles.

11 hours ago, Ashtabula said:

 

 

[hoorta]

16 hours ago, PoeticG said:

This is exactly why I'm lobbying to take a game-changer #1 and then the developmental QB #4. He might not see the field for 3 years if everything works out. 

 

15 hours ago, D Bone said:

^ It's an argument that has merit..... especially if the Browns aren't head over freakin' heals in love with one QB. 

The flaw in Po's argument is best running back trumps the possibility of winding up with third best quarterback. It doesn't. That Saquon argument also eliminates the possibility of getting Chubb, arguably the best edge rusher in the draft, the second most important position after quarterback. 

Um, Haslam and the guys took Darnold out to dinner, only had a few scouts at Penn State's pro day.

[bjh2130]

1 hour ago, LaDexter said:

I am much more in favor of taking Bradley Chubb at #1 and remembering when the NYG had Strahan, Tuck, and Osi....  I was not a fan of Garrett, but his "late off the snap" issue so vivid on his A&M tape vanished in a CLE uniform.  Chubb and Garrett ... foundation of a SB defense.

 

If Ohio State can shut down Darnold... imagine what the Bengals and Steelers will do...

Go rewatch the tOSU v USC game. Ohio state hardly shut down Darnold.

 

Edit: I want Chubb taken at number 1 also for the record. Just don't get how people say Ohio state shut down Darnold.

[Ashtabula]

8 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

I love how folks assume 'development" is inevitable...

 

Timing feels wrong to be true, but #106 at left edge of photo sure looks like a young Nick Foles.

 

Probably was.

[jiggins7919]

21 hours ago, Bigalow80 said:

I would start your therapy early. I think the Browns truly believe Tyrod is going to give them 2-3 solid years of qb play. This is why I think Allen is going to be the pick. They will sit him and let him develop. I also think that if the Jets really want Darnold or Rosen, the Browns are going to be open to trading the #1 with them. I still believe this is going to be a draft then swap type of move. 

That's a fair and observant point. I agree with you in that I completely believe Tyrod will give us 2-3 years of consistent, quality QB play. Like I said in another long, rambling, Jiggins post, I don't see us parting ways with Tyrod after we play remarkably better with a guy like Tyrod compared to our awful 2017. After suffering through a winless season, something very hard for everybody, I see us fighting very hard this year, and maybe pushing for a wildcard slot deep into November, and then finally getting knocked out of contention in the 4th quarter of the season. Obviously this is all just complete speculation, but I seriously believe it. Our additions of Damarious Randall, Jarvis Landry, Tyrod Landry, EJ Gaines (a sneaky addition btw), Carlos Hyde, and whoever we add in the draft will be enough to take us from winless to possibly 6 wins. That might not sound like a bunch, but if you're a team that wins 6, it generally means you were close in many others. 

Since I believe in Tyrod so much, and I think our coaches do too, I COULD see us drafting the QB who might have the upside, but would take the most time to develop. I could see it, but I don't AGREE with it. For me, the QB position comes down to accuracy and confidence. Accuracy seems to be the one thing a guy has or he does not. It's not generally something a guy learns as he sits. Can you put the ball where you want it, and do you have the huevos to pull the trigger? Nothing I've seen of Josh Allen tells me he can be the guy. I don't care HOW far he can throw it. Baker Mayfield, Josh Rosen, and Sam Darnold....in that order.  

[Dutch Oven]

12 hours ago, Ashtabula said:

Probably was.

Nick Foles is 8 or 9 years older than Darnold. 

I kind of doubt they were ever at the same QB camp...