Aggie Brown fan Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 Gip, how am I putting too much emphasis on his height? He's the only qb under 6' taken in the first round in the Super Bowl era, even though he's only a quarter inch under 6'. The most common characteristics for first round qb busts are big guys with great arm strength. Manziel is not that, though he could still be a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 The Colts also drafted Elway, remember, but he wouldn't play for them. Oh wow.....I completely forgot about that..........its a CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 The Colts also drafted Elway, remember, but he wouldn't play for them. Sure do. If I recall, Elway was a west coast guy that wouldn't play in Baltimore because it was too cold. I wonder if anyone ever took the time to tell him about the weather in Denver before he signed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 #1) My main point in my first post was that most first-round qb busts are big strong-armed guys who "look" like the right guy, but have huge overlooked flaws. #2) Johnny in no way fits that description. He was taken so high because he is awesome at every other part of the game other than size. #3) If he was 6' 4", he would be Andrew Luck who maybe parties too much. #4) And I'm not trying to be a broken record #5) I .....usually try to be a voice of reason, not a rah-rah guy. #1) The argument to that is most(if not all) of the successful QB's in this league ARE big strong armed guys, compared to the number of short running QB's who have made it.....and of course most of the failures look like prototype QB's, thats why they were drafted to begin with #2) I understand your points. Again, it's just that none of us know, and repeating it over and over doesn't make it so. Yes, he has the "intangibles" that are hard to measure. He was a winner, had a never say die attitude, etc etc etc..... We get it(for the millionth time).... And the opposing argument is there have been many others just like that. McCoy & Tebow are PERFECT examples. Too small, limited skills, but always found the way to win games. So, if I can understand WHY he was selected (has good intangibles), why is it so hard for you to understand WHY people have concerns(missing many tangibles)....it's 6 of one, half dozen of the other....for every positive you present, there is also an opposing negative someone else can present.....and no one will change their stand UNTIL he plays......do you not see that?.... #3) Mute point. He's not Luck and he's not 6'-4". Not even close on either. #4) But you are....you told us the same thing 57 kazillion times #5) I used to think that. Not so much anymore..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 Sure do. If I recall, Elway was a west coast guy that wouldn't play in Baltimore because it was too cold. I wonder if anyone ever took the time to tell him about the weather in Denver before he signed? I think Eli Manning did the same thing to SanDiego....told em NOT to pick him....then forced a trade when they did.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 I think Eli Manning did the same thing to SanDiego....told em NOT to pick him....then forced a trade when they did.... You're right, I totally forgot about that slice of Eli drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 Yeah...Im remembering now....and Elway told the Colts dont draft me too.....then, when they did, he signed with the Yankees and told them to pound salt.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 Gip, how am I putting too much emphasis on his height? He's the only qb under 6' taken in the first round in the Super Bowl era, even though he's only a quarter inch under 6'. The most common characteristics for first round qb busts are big guys with great arm strength. Manziel is not that, though he could still be a bust. Well, he is like the ONLY QB on my original list to be under 6' to be drafted in the last like 50 years.....so obviously he is going to be in a class pretty much by himself when it comes to height.....and logically since there were many, many other taller QBs they will have had their share of busts. So I would remove that factor from the equation altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Brown fan Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 Mudfly, I'll comment on your last 3 statements. #3) Mute point. He's not Luck and he's not 6'-4". Not even close on either. This dumb statement is why I sound like a broken record. On your own post about top 10 college qb's Luck is 6th and Manziel is 4th. Not even close though, by your genius account. Johnny played 1 less year in college, too, and is still ranked higher. #4) But you are....you told us the same thing 57 kazillion times Explained above. Don't make illogical statements about him and I'll stop pointing out where they're wrong. #5) I used to think that. Not so much anymore..... Whatever. I realize Browns fans have suffered. Aggie fans have, too. I just hope he does for the Browns what he did for the Aggies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tml1138 Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 Sure do. If I recall, Elway was a west coast guy that wouldn't play in Baltimore because it was too cold. I wonder if anyone ever took the time to tell him about the weather in Denver before he signed? I heard it was because of who the Colts HC was at the time. Didn't like him or had a bad history with him or something to that effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikethomas777 Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 Gip, how am I putting too much emphasis on his height? He's the only qb under 6' taken in the first round in the Super Bowl era, even though he's only a quarter inch under 6'. The most common characteristics for first round qb busts are big guys with great arm strength. Manziel is not that, though he could still be a bust. He will be a bust because Gip went to the Patriots-Browns game in 2000 and the Patriots lost. This means the Pats sucked even though they beat a great Colts team that year and had the foundation for their Super Bowl teams in place. Tom Brady won all their games and Super Bowls single-handedly just like Brian Hoyer has won all ours. Johnny Manziel will be a bust because qbs picked in the first round don't always become good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcam222 Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 Mudfly, I'll comment on your last 3 statements. #3) Mute point. He's not Luck and he's not 6'-4". Not even close on either. This dumb statement is why I sound like a broken record. On your own post about top 10 college qb's Luck is 6th and Manziel is 4th. Not even close though, by your genius account. Johnny played 1 less year in college, too, and is still ranked higher. #4) But you are....you told us the same thing 57 kazillion times Explained above. Don't make illogical statements about him and I'll stop pointing out where they're wrong. #5) I used to think that. Not so much anymore..... Whatever. I realize Browns fans have suffered. Aggie fans have, too. I just hope he does for the Browns what he did for the Aggies. Off topic but something I always wonder about you "Aggie Browns fans". Are you really a Browns fan or just a Manziel / Aggie fan? In other words if he left tomorrow to play for Dallas is your new screen name Aggie Cowboy fan?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 He will be a bust because Gip went to the Patriots-Browns game in 2000 and the Patriots lost. This means the Pats sucked even though they beat a great Colts team that year and had the foundation for their Super Bowl teams in place. Tom Brady won all their games and Super Bowls single-handedly just like Brian Hoyer has won all ours. Johnny Manziel will be a bust because qbs picked in the first round don't always become good players. Yowza your perception is something...idk what but something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 Sure do. If I recall, Elway was a west coast guy that wouldn't play in Baltimore because it was too cold. I wonder if anyone ever took the time to tell him about the weather in Denver before he signed? That was his excuse. The fact was he did NOT want to play for the mess that was the Robert Irsay Colts organization at that time, plus, apparently his old man hated Frank Kush, who was the Colts coach. They had their run-ins in college where Jack Elway coached as San Jose St. and Kush coached Arizona St.....which was before AZ St. joined the Pac-10. The whole "I want to play where its warm was just a canard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 He will be a bust because Gip went to the Patriots-Browns game in 2000 and the Patriots lost. This means the Pats sucked even though they beat a great Colts team that year and had the foundation for their Super Bowl teams in place. Tom Brady won all their games and Super Bowls single-handedly just like Brian Hoyer has won all ours. Are you always this completely ignorant, or only that way when it comes to football? I don't know how you function in life. Johnny Manziel will be a bust because qbs picked in the first round don't always become good players. 50% of them do not. That is correct. That is a mathematical fact....since 1936 (look at that thread). Whether JMZ will become part of that pct. is totally up to him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaygroundLegend Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 EXACTLY GIP... 50%... Just like you said.. So why do you assume he will be on the bust side instead of the boom side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 EXACTLY GIP... 50%... Just like you said.. So why do you assume he will be on the bust side instead of the boom side? I dont think he's saying bust... I think the premise is that no one should assume either....bust or boom.....and for the exact same reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikethomas777 Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 I dont think he's saying bust... I think the premise is that no one should assume either....bust or boom.....and for the exact same reasons Check out his old posts and you can reasonably infer that he means bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 no need. I just assumed we were referring to the premise of "this" thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 That was his excuse. The fact was he did NOT want to play for the mess that was the Robert Irsay Colts organization at that time, plus, apparently his old man hated Frank Kush, who was the Colts coach. They had their run-ins in college where Jack Elway coached as San Jose St. and Kush coached Arizona St.....which was before AZ St. joined the Pac-10. The whole "I want to play where its warm was just a canard. I recall the presser that John Elway had, where a reporter asked him about signing with the Yankees. The reporter reminded young Elway that it also got cold in NY, then John responded with "but baseball is played when the weather is warm". The rift between Jack Elway & Kush does put things into a different perspective though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 EXACTLY GIP... 50%... Just like you said.. So why do you assume he will be on the bust side instead of the boom side? Because the # of qbs under 6' 2' who went on to have HOF careers is damn short. Look it up PGL. Maybe you don't remember all the hoopla about RG III's height- or lack of. Manziel is even shorter. Again- I'm not saying Manziel will bust- but it was, and is a factor in his long term success in the NFL. Another factor in his long term success is if JFF has learned he can't throw passes of his back foot into a triple covered Mike Evans for jump balls either. I'm sure Shanny has told him that crap won't fly in the NFL. You might have forgotten that little detail- I haven't. Playbook? You talking PLAYBOOK???? Problem I have with the Manzealots is they're (the more blinded ones at least) putting JFF in the Andrew Luck category of consensus #1 overall. Sure some guys thought he should be the #1 qb off the board- a bunch of others gave him a third round grade- and quite justifiably, I might add. Oh- I'll pull a Shepsterism on ya- go ask him if he now wants to flip flop on the issue. Once upon a time he posited one of the best predictors of NFL success was the # of college starts a qb had. Andrew Luck, pass. JFF flunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Brown fan Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 "" Another factor in his long term success is if JFF has learned he can't throw passes of his back foot into a triple covered Mike Evans for jump balls either."" This is so overblown. Almost every "jump ball" to Mike Evans had to be thrown. Down 10 to Ole Miss with 5 minutes left from the 1 yard line on 3rd amd 30 is the most famous. Down 14 to bama with 30 seconds left is another. And there's a reason Evans is known for catching these. Manziel wasn't stupid enough to throw those to a 5' 7" guy. He threw it up for his 6' 5" stud receiver to go get, and he did it maybe 10 times in 26 games and they almost always worked. 26 starts isn't enough in college? Thats how many Johnny started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USFBrown Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 26 starts isn't enough in college? Thats how many Johnny started. It only matters in the draft. It means squat in the NFL. He's got to prove himself. We'll just have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Brown fan Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 " It only matters in the draft. It means squat in the NFL. He's got to prove himself. We'll just have to wait and see." I agrree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manzier Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 Mike Evans....my pick for best rookie receiver by a mile! Wonder what the odds of best rookie receiver AND best rookie QB from the same team are....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaygroundLegend Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 Because the # of qbs under 6' 2' who went on to have HOF careers is damn short. Look it up PGL. Maybe you don't remember all the hoopla about RG III's height- or lack of. Manziel is even shorter. Again- I'm not saying Manziel will bust- but it was, and is a factor in his long term success in the NFL. Another factor in his long term success is if JFF has learned he can't throw passes of his back foot into a triple covered Mike Evans for jump balls either. I'm sure Shanny has told him that crap won't fly in the NFL. You might have forgotten that little detail- I haven't. Playbook? You talking PLAYBOOK???? , Michael Problem I have with the Manzealots is they're (the more blinded ones at least) putting JFF in the Andrew Luck category of consensus #1 overall. Sure some guys thought he should be the #1 qb off the board- a bunch of others gave him a third round grade- and quite justifiably, I might add. Oh- I'll pull a Shepsterism on ya- go ask him if he now wants to flip flop on the issue. Once upon a time he posited one of the best predictors of NFL success was the # of college starts a qb had. Andrew Luck, pass. JFF flunk. Hoorta.. Why did we trade up to select Johnny? Did we do it because we think he will boom or bust? Height means absolutely nothing... 0... zilch.. Russell Wilson, Drew Brees, Frank Tarkenton, Otto Grahm, Doug Flutie, Michael Vick, Joe Theisman, Eddie LeBaron, Sonny Jurgensen... I mean it goes on.. Short QB's that actually get drafted end up playing pretty well. RG3 isnt short.. he's average coming in at a shade over 6"2 The toss ups to Evans? Sure.. that happened on a handful of occasions.. just like any QB.. all QBs toss balls up every now and then. Johnny almost every record there is. He put up POINTS.. hes FAST.. he is ACCURATE.. he has a GREAT ARM.. and he has excellent INSTINCTS.. he has a HIGH IQ... he is a LEADER.. he WORKS HARD (like before training camp he was working with the QB trainer every day in the sun for 6 months leading up to the draft)!! He PLAYS HARD! He NEVER GIVES UP (like on Gruden QB camp.. John showed Johnny his favorite play.. when Johnnys RB fumbled the ball.. Johnny ran down the field, STRIPPED THE BALL from the defender... then another defender picked it up.. Johnny got up and continued to pursue and took him down! Thats heart!) Every one of the things I wrote up there are true.. thats why he was worth a first rounder.. and that is why he is worth your time as a fan. Ive been an avid Browns fan all my life.. I joined this forum for the first time back in 2006 when I was 17 yearls old. Im not a "Manzealot" Im a BROWNS FANATIC. I want what is best for this team MOVING FORWARD. I think that whats best.. is JOHNNY MANZIEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 Hoorta.. Why did we trade up to select Johnny? Did we do it because we think he will boom or bust? Every one of the things I wrote up there are true.. thats why he was worth a first rounder.. and that is why he is worth your time as a fan. Ive been an avid Browns fan all my life.. I joined this forum for the first time back in 2006 when I was 17 yearls old. Im not a "Manzealot" Im a BROWNS FANATIC. I want what is best for this team MOVING FORWARD. I think that whats best.. is JOHNNY MANZIEL Of course we drafted him in the first round because we thought he'd be great. LOL, you think teams draft players in the first round because the FO thought they would bust? FWIW, I do think Manziel will eventually supplant Hoyer as the starter. When and how that happens remains to be seen. MHO is that time isn't now- as long as the Browns are in the playoff hunt. Right now JFF is the best situation possible- learning the pro game, learning the playbook, and learning from a TOTAL professional in Hoyer how to prepare for a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Brown fan Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 Nice post PL. Johnny is in a great situation, I agree. He doesn't need any help working like a professional, though. He's always worked hard and been a good teammate. It would help if the media and crazy "fans" didn't follow him around like the pied piper, but Manziel sells. It's the price you pay for being a superstar. Johnny didn't ask for that, his play on the field made him an espn darling, and "Manziel news" has been beaten to death ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoundDawg Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 How many QB's who ran the air raid offense in college have successfully transitioned to the nfl? Honest question. Anyone done that research? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaygroundLegend Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 Tim Couch ran the Air Raid.. Nick Foles.. Kevin Kolb..John Beck.. Case Keenum..Brandon Weeden..Geno Smith.. Max Hall.. Not the best track record I will admit However.. I would also like to talk about Case Keenum.. EXTREMELY underrated in the NFL.. the kid put up #'s but is getting looked over in my opinion.. Hes pretty good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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