OldBrownsFan Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 41 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said: it's inconceivable to me that some of you aren't concerned by this. Every time some guy "retires" from the admin, he was deep state trash and "good riddance". Political stuff is political, I get it.....but this is getting weird, really weird. And not in that fresh "he's an outsider" kind of way. Not even in the "well he's not a polished politician" sort of way either. This is pointing toward a full blown implosion of our democracy, something btw that was "PROMISED" to us by a certain poster here prior to the 2016 election. Mattis, by all accounts, was not a political guy.....so when he adivised Trump on stuff, you can be sure it was related to the military and he was drawing upon his how many decades of distinguished service? So I would find it hard to believe Mattis would outright advise Trump on ever removing troops from Syria..but you know he advised Trump to do it the "right way". And Trump said nahhhh. Ok Donald. Some concerns. But also concerns this is getting blown up out of proportion. My concerns are that it is not only Mattis but Bolton and Pompeo too were also against pulling our troops out of Syria. This kind of thing however happened with Obama on numerous occasions with Obama going against his advisers and nobody acted like the sky was falling. There are two sides to pulling the troops out of Syria. I side with Mattis, Pompeo and Bolton that we should not pull the troops out yet but it is not a crazy idea to want to pull the troops out either. An argument can be made on both sides. If there would be any implosion of our democracy I would lay that more at the feet of those who never accepted the will of the voters and the 2016 election results and have done everything to take out this president by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cccjwh Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said: Some concerns. But also concerns this is getting blown up out of proportion. My concerns are that it is not only Mattis but Bolton and Pompeo too were also against pulling our troops out of Syria. This kind of thing however happened with Obama on numerous occasions with Obama going against his advisers and nobody acted like the sky was falling. There are two sides to pulling the troops out of Syria. I side with Mattis, Pompeo and Bolton that we should not pull the troops out yet but it is not a crazy idea to want to pull the troops out either. An argument can be made on both sides. If there would be any implosion of our democracy I would lay that more at the feet of those who never accepted the will of the voters and the 2016 election results and have done everything to take out this president by any means. You cheer on a moron trying to destroy the pillars of our democracy and you are going to blame others if it fails. Don't worry your war hero isn't going to destroy our country, the non-TDIMS are starting to wake up. You losers will be back on the fringe and everyone can look back and laugh at how fucking stupid you guys were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 21 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said: Some concerns. But also concerns this is getting blown up out of proportion. My concerns are that it is not only Mattis but Bolton and Pompeo too were also against pulling our troops out of Syria. This kind of thing however happened with Obama on numerous occasions with Obama going against his advisers and nobody acted like the sky was falling. There are two sides to pulling the troops out of Syria. I side with Mattis, Pompeo and Bolton that we should not pull the troops out yet but it is not a crazy idea to want to pull the troops out either. An argument can be made on both sides. If there would be any implosion of our democracy I would lay that more at the feet of those who never accepted the will of the voters and the 2016 election results and have done everything to take out this president by any means. people also weren't jumping ship from the SS Obama like they are from this guys ship. You do see that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, cccjwh said: You cheer on a moron trying to destroy the pillars of our democracy and you are going to blame others if it fails. Don't worry your war hero isn't going to destroy our country, the non-TDIMS are starting to wake up. You losers will be back on the fringe and everyone can look back and laugh at how fucking stupid you guys were. This is a good way to destroy the pillars of our democracy don't you think? Former FBI lawyer: Plot to record, remove Trump not a joke Don’t tell former FBI general counsel James Baker that those now-infamous discussions about secretly recording President Trump and using the tapes to remove him from office were a joke. Baker told Congress last week that his boss — then-acting FBI Director Andrew McCabe — was dead serious about the idea of surreptitiously recording the 45th president and using the evidence to make the case that Trump should be removed from office, according to my sources. Even more extraordinary is the timing of such discussions: They occurred, according to Baker’s account, in the window around the firing of FBI Director James Comey. Could it be that the leaders of a wounded, stunned FBI were seeking retribution for their boss’s firing with a secret recording operation? I doubt this is the power that Congress intended to be exercised when it created the FBI a century ago, or the circumstances in which the authors of the 25th Amendment imagined a president’s removal could be engineered. This wasn’t a president who was incapacitated at the time. He was fully exercising his powers — but in a way the FBI leadership did not like. And that makes the FBI’s involvement in the tape-record-then-dump-Trump conversations overtly political — even if Rosenstein believed the whole idea was farcical. Keep in mind, this is the same FBI that, a few months earlier during the 2016 election, had its top counterintelligence agent Peter Strzok talking to Page — his lover and the top lawyer to McCabe — about using their official powers to “stop” Trump in the election and having an “insurance policy” against the GOP nominee. That insurance policy increasingly looks like an unverified dossier created by British intelligence operative Christopher Steele — a Trump hater himself — that was bought and paid for by the Democratic Party and Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign through their mutual law firm. “You walk away from the Baker interview with little doubt that the FBI leadership in that 2016-17 time frame saw itself as far more than a neutral investigative agency but actually as a force to stop Trump’s election before it happened and then maybe reversing it after the election was over,” said a source directly familiar with the congressional investigation. Whatever you think of Rosenstein or the Russia probe, the statements Baker made to Congress have implications for all Americans. The FBI was created to investigate crimes and stop foreign intelligence and terrorism threats. It was never designed to be a broker in the political process of elections or the execution of the 25th Amendment. https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/410447-former-fbi-lawyer-plot-to-record-remove-trump-not-a-joke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Clevfan4life said: people also weren't jumping ship from the SS Obama like they are from this guys ship. You do see that right? Trump has had a higher than normal turnover rate almost from the start. I don't see it as jumping ship but there is a problem somewhere because his turnover rate is higher than other presidential administrations. Going forward I see the reason why some might leave knowing the new Pelosi controlled dem House is likely to have endless investigations and subpoenas flying to anyone working in this administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbluhm86 Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 http://thebrownsboard.com/topic/45022-mad-dog-mattis-chosen-for-secretary-of-defense/?tab=comments#comment-659797: On 12/2/2016 at 11:30 AM, calfoxwc said: I LOVE THIS GUY. Among people who know him, they say he is outstanding in character, wisdom, well-balanced, extremely intelligent, can fix a lot of the terrible mistakes obaMao has made in our foriegn policy... just an oustanding guy. Oh, hell yeah, nice nominee, TRUMP and PENCE ! http://thebrownsboard.com/topic/45530-james-mattis/?tab=comments#comment-675083 On 1/21/2017 at 12:34 PM, calfoxwc said: ...Mattis is such an excellent choice, he already was confirmed. Our military folks are especially delighted today. Cut to two years later, where now all of a sudden, Cal thinks Mattis "made himself look bad" by resigning, and that he "might be a democrat". This is why many people on this board don't take you seriously at all, Cal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 4 hours ago, jbluhm86 said: http://thebrownsboard.com/topic/45022-mad-dog-mattis-chosen-for-secretary-of-defense/?tab=comments#comment-659797: http://thebrownsboard.com/topic/45530-james-mattis/?tab=comments#comment-675083 Cut to two years later, where now all of a sudden, Cal thinks Mattis "made himself look bad" by resigning, and that he "might be a democrat". This is why many people on this board don't take you seriously at all, Cal. Anyone gotten a good list up of all the "dishonorable commonists" that infiltrated the TRUMPSTER FIRE👺? I'll start. McCain, Mattis, H.R. McMaster, Rex Tillerson, Sessions, Nikki Haley, Joe Hagan, Don McGhan,.........................etc. etc. etc. Feel free to add as many of the others as needed so you can see what they all had in common................................more brains and far better Republicans than Putin's Narcissist Traitor👺 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 4 hours ago, jbluhm86 said: http://thebrownsboard.com/topic/45530-james-mattis/?tab=comments#comment-675083 Cut to two years later, where now all of a sudden, Cal thinks Mattis "made himself look bad" by resigning, and that he "might be a democrat". This is why many people on this board don't take you seriously at all, Cal. Why is that? I liked Mattis. But there comes to a point where he wasn't the great choice I thought he would be. I don't work in d.c. moron. He DID make himself look bad - per the article I posted. and I DIDN"T say Mattis might be a democrat.... Pres TrUMP DID. The Obama administration's inexplicable mishandling of Marine Gen ... https://foreignpolicy.com/.../the-obama-administrations-inexplicable-mishandling-of-... Jan 18, 2013 - Word on the national security street is that General James Mattis is being given the bum's rush out of his job as commander of Central ... Why did Obama fire General Mattis? - Quora https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Obama-fire-General-Mattis President Obama replaced Gen. Mattis as head of the US Central Command because the general was not considered to be serving the nation and the . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 Will Obama's Mattis Be Trump's Mattis? - Defense One https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2016/12/will-obamas-mattis-be...mattis/133632/ Dec 5, 2016 - In General Mattis, Trump picked an insider warrior-diplomat who worked with the Obama administration, respected Hillary Clinton, and knows .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 Obama Fires Top General Without Even a Phone Call https://www.weeklystandard.com/.../obama-fires-top-general-without-even-a-phone-c... Jan 25, 2013 - President Barack Obama fired General James Mattis, the head of Central Command, without even calling the general to let him know he was ... James Mattis' 33-Year Grudge Against Iran - POLITICO Magazine https://www.politico.com/magazine/.../james-mattis-iran-secretary-of-defense-214500 Dec 4, 2016 - In fact, Mattis' anti-Iran animus is so intense that it led President Barack Obama to replace him as Centcom commander. It was a move that .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 I don't mattis. He was supposed to think we shouldn't be the world's policeman. Why then, want to put out Soldiers all around the world? Jblew - the people who believe a lot of what I believe don't have much of anything to go on with you. You pop in when you think you can "get" somebody. I don't care. I post links I think are interesting, and have serious benefit to discussions. one benefit outside of serious, is funny. You are just strange. Your dirty corrupt traitor ObaMao commie changed his mind about Mattis, and you don't say anything. Pres Trump changes his mind about Mattis, you go apecrap. so, I changed my mind about him, and you bitch. LOL. I'm proud to say that none of you on the left "take me seriously". Have a nice day, Jblewie, and go give your heroine higgardly great big smoochies. Is her soggy poster on yer wall still hangin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 11 hours ago, Clevfan4life said: Its the way he just he did it, like he woke up and saud fuck it bring them home. To be clear im not against the concept, but u tell the military in advance so a draw down can be orchestrated without leaving an immeduate gaping suck hole for isis 2.0 to fill. Surely u can agree with me on that. This move made almost in unison with those sanctions being lifted, i mean.....wtf? I do agree with you there. But I don't see much difference in Assad versus Isis versus the Muslim Brotherhood versus whoever the hell else runs that shit hole. But no you don't pull this kind of shit with a man of respect like General Mattis. That's why he's there. You should call him up tell him I would like to do this or that and ask if and how we can do it. And follow his advice. But you've got to agree it's ironic to see some of the peace-loving members of the left now fire-breathing warhawks. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Westside Steve said: But you've got to agree it's ironic to see some of the peace-loving members of the left now fire-breathing warhawks. WSS Yeah. What concept have i been imploring people here for years about? Principle. If ur against our troops stationed indefinitely in a sandy shithole where nothing they do will make any difference there and their mere presence makes people loathe us......then ur against it no matter who is potus. Ive been screaming at the lack of principle in this entire country for years. But what u also have to admit, its quite a show watching one relatively highly thought of individual after another going from shine to shit in often very short periods and not a single trumper says wait a minute........ And now we have this issue of trump lifting those sanctions....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said: And now we have this issue of trump lifting those sanctions....... But I don't care about that. I have no particular animosity toward the russkis and never have. This modern-day McCarthyism is situational. WSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, Westside Steve said: But I don't care about that. I have no particular animosity toward the russkis and never have. This modern-day McCarthyism is situational. WSD Those men who were sanctioned were sanction because they tried to fuck with YOUR VOTE, and not just in 2016 but also the recent midterms. Ive been saying fir 2 years the russian intervention wasnt in behalf if their beloved Donald....they laugh at him.....they're sowing discord which means they'll help the side which generates the most rage from the other. Do not be surprised to see a "democratic socialist" as our next president and dont be surprised if there was russian involvement because the "rage factor" on the right will hit the lower atmosphere. You'll care then about russian or anyone elses interference then, i promise u that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 18 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said: Yeah. What concept have i been imploring people here for years about? Principle. If ur against our troops stationed indefinitely in a sandy shithole where nothing they do will make any difference there and their mere presence makes people loathe us......then ur against it no matter who is potus. Ive been screaming at the lack of principle in this entire country for years. But what u also have to admit, its quite a show watching one relatively highly thought of individual after another going from shine to shit in often very short periods and not a single trumper says wait a minute........ And now we have this issue of trump lifting those sanctions....... I see your point if someone who is hawkish all of a sudden changes their tune because of Trump. From what I know about Trump he has been consistent on not wanting to see this country bogged down in conflicts across the world with no end game or long term goals...his pulling the troops out of Syria are consistent with what he has always stated. I have mixed feelings about some of this now. I supported taking out Ghadaffi but the reality is Libya was better off with Ghadaffi there instead of turning Libya into a failed state. I supported the Iraq war and taking out Hussein but the better option was probably just trying to contain Hussein instead of a war that put us trillions of dollars in debt and loss of American soldiers lives for what? I thought Bush's idea of trying to bring democracy to some of these countries was a good idea but where did it get us? I support keeping the troops in Syria because ISIS has not been defeated and Trump saying they are will come back to bite him. Under Trump our military has done a great job in taking back almost all the territory ISIS once held but the cancer is still there and they are not defeated. Like I say though I have mixed feeling anymore about this as the results have not been good in a lot of our interventions around the world. And I hate to say this but when it comes to intervening in Muslim countries it seems no matter how much we try to help we will always be the infidels so why bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said: And I hate to say this but when it comes to intervening in Muslim countries it seems no matter how much we try to help we will always be the infidels so why bother? And ive been arguing that point to u sunce i joined here. But noooowwww that rich white monkey holds that view now ur in favor of not bombing simple people who just want to grow some fucking olives then die peacefully. We fucking militarized those people over nearly a century now of faggotry in theur lands. I guess we beed to elect more rich white monkeys huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said: And ive been arguing that point to u sunce i joined here. But noooowwww that rich white monkey holds that view now ur in favor of not bombing simple people who just want to grow some fucking olives then die peacefully. We fucking militarized those people over nearly a century now of faggotry in theur lands. I guess we beed to elect more rich white monkeys huh? Nothing to do with Trump...I started questioning the wisdom of the Iraq war within a year. Colin Powell was right when he said if we broke it we bought it and he was right and what did we buy in the end? Same way with Libya I questioned the wisdom of what we did long before Trump. I'm still on board with Mattis, Pompeo and Bolton on keeping our troops in Syria mainly because I hate to see what is going to happen to the Kurds there who have helped us and always seem to get the short end of the stick for their help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted December 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 50 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said: Those men who were sanctioned were sanction because they tried to fuck with YOUR VOTE, and not just in 2016 but also the recent midterms. Ive been saying fir 2 years the russian intervention wasnt in behalf if their beloved Donald....they laugh at him.....they're sowing discord which means they'll help the side which generates the most rage from the other. Do not be surprised to see a "democratic socialist" as our next president and dont be surprised if there was russian involvement because the "rage factor" on the right will hit the lower atmosphere. You'll care then about russian or anyone elses interference then, i promise u that. No I wont. And the Democrats wouldn't give a shit about whatever the russkis did if their girl didn't lose. And she didn't lose because of anything the Russians put on Facebook she lost because she's the only candidate in the world people hated worse than Donald Trump. Plus whatever shit was revealed is shit she actually did so you guys, at least the regular Democrats, want to shoot the messenger. I don't remember any of the lefties shitting their pants over Woodward and Bernstein. And we're going to have a Social Democrat in the White House soon enough. Not because of Any fake news from either side but because there are just too many lazy ass Deadbeats who are looking for a free ride and blame successful people for them not having one WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted December 21, 2018 Report Share Posted December 21, 2018 5 hours ago, Clevfan4life said: And ive been arguing that point to u sunce i joined here. But noooowwww that rich white monkey holds that view now ur in favor of not bombing simple people who just want to grow some fucking olives then die peacefully. We fucking militarized those people over nearly a century now of faggotry in theur lands. I guess we beed to elect more rich white monkeys huh? Ha You think the middle east is just some fucking peaceful olive farm? Jesus Christ Cleve. I've rarely seen you say anything more fucking stupid than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted December 22, 2018 Report Share Posted December 22, 2018 1 hour ago, The Cysko Kid said: Ha You think the middle east is just some fucking peaceful olive farm? Jesus Christ Cleve. I've rarely seen you say anything more fucking stupid than this. 1) i know far more about the middle east, its current and past history....than u would learn in 2 lifetimes. 2) The people in "power" in the middle east....are not peaceful olive farmers. But its the simple ngrs that suffer the most when we go waltzing in there and start unloading ammo warehouses. And its THOSE people then who the people in power use to keep their positions of power because they just parrot anti american rhetoric. You simply dont understand the dynamics in effect in that region that were put in place now over 100 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted December 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2018 Spread your vast knowledge Cleve. Lets hear it. Besides talking shit. Provide some fucking proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted December 22, 2018 Report Share Posted December 22, 2018 13 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said: 1) i know far more about the middle east, its current and past history....than u would learn in 2 lifetimes. 2) The people in "power" in the middle east....are not peaceful olive farmers. But its the simple ngrs that suffer the most when we go waltzing in there and start unloading ammo warehouses. And its THOSE people then who the people in power use to keep their positions of power because they just parrot anti american rhetoric. You simply dont understand the dynamics in effect in that region that were put in place now over 100 years ago. 1. Classic narcissistic arrogance. I've been there. You haven't. You have not a clue what I know about it. 2. The middle east has been in a state of perpetual war for thousands of years. Caliphates mean anything to you? Crusades? Charles Martell? You should shut the fuck up once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted December 22, 2018 Report Share Posted December 22, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Cysko Kid said: 2. The middle east has been in a state of perpetual war for thousands of years. That statement right there is why i dont bother. People just couldnt be bothered to become educated. "The Islamic Golden Age is the era in the history of Islam, traditionally dated from the 8th century to the 14th century, during which much of the historically Islamic world was ruled by various caliphates, and science, economic development and cultural works flourished.[1][2][3] This period is traditionally understood to have begun during the reign of the Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid (786 to 809) with the inauguration of the House of Wisdom in Baghdad, where scholars from various parts of the world with different cultural backgrounds were mandated to gather and translate all of the world's classical knowledge into the Arabic language.[4][5] This period is traditionally said to have ended with the collapse of the Abbasid caliphate due to Mongol invasionsand the Siege of Baghdad in 1258 AD.[6] A few contemporary scholars place the end of the Islamic Golden Age as late as the end of 15th to 16th centuries.[1]"[2][3]" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted December 22, 2018 Report Share Posted December 22, 2018 This is high school.history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted December 22, 2018 Report Share Posted December 22, 2018 52 minutes ago, The Cysko Kid said: 1. Classic narcissistic arrogance. I've been there. You haven't. You have not a clue what I know about it. Rudimentary knowledge of history isnt "narcissistic arrogance"...its just knowing something that people refuse to acknowledge and/or learn about no matter how many times its gently mentioned to.them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted December 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2018 22 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said: That statement right there is why i dont bother. People just couldnt be bothered to become educated. "The Islamic Golden Age is the era in the history of Islam, traditionally dated from the 8th century to the 14th century, during which much of the historically Islamic world was ruled by various caliphates, and science, economic development and cultural works flourished.[1][2][3] This period is traditionally understood to have begun during the reign of the Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid (786 to 809) with the inauguration of the House of Wisdom in Baghdad, where scholars from various parts of the world with different cultural backgrounds were mandated to gather and translate all of the world's classical knowledge into the Arabic language.[4][5] This period is traditionally said to have ended with the collapse of the Abbasid caliphate due to Mongol invasionsand the Siege of Baghdad in 1258 AD.[6] A few contemporary scholars place the end of the Islamic Golden Age as late as the end of 15th to 16th centuries.[1]"[2][3]" WTF is this supposed to prove? Man your fucking stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted December 22, 2018 Report Share Posted December 22, 2018 1 minute ago, DieHardBrownsFan said: WTF is this supposed to prove? Man your fucking stupid. It proves the middle east hasnt been in a perpetual state of war for billions of earth years, as was prior asserted. Are YOU this stupid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted December 22, 2018 Report Share Posted December 22, 2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Middle_East From the 3rd up to the course of the 7th century AD, the entire Middle East was dominated by the Byzantines and Sassanid Persia. From the 7th century, a new power was rising in the Middle East, that of Islam. The dominance of the Arabs came to a sudden end in the mid-11th century with the arrival of the Seljuq Turks. In the early 13th century, a new wave of invaders, the armies of the Mongol Empire, mainly Turkic, swept through the region. By the early 15th century, a new power had arisen in western Anatolia, the Ottoman emirs, linguistically Turkic and religiously Islamic, who in 1453 captured the Christian Byzantine capital of Constantinople and made themselves sultans. Large parts of the Middle East became a warground between the Ottomans and Iranian Safavids for centuries starting in the early 16th century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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