Clevfan4life Posted January 3, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 15 minutes ago, choco said: Only bad move in hindsight was letting nassib go, but even he was just a depth guy here and wouldn't have moved the needle much. Shelton hasn't even dressed for the pats in more than a month. Nassib imo was crucial depth at the edges. Poo bear actually played pretty well but he was primarily LDE, Nassib would have subbed in both at LDE and RDE. Myles was on the field a bit too much this year for my liking. He usually never got a break till late in the 3rd. I would have preferred the rotation of Myles, Smith, Nassib and Avery. But the interior was our most glaring deficiency. I pointed out before the season started that letting Meder and Shelton go was probably going to nerf Jobi a little bit, and it did. He had to do too much of the heavy lifting and it started to show after a couple games. First couple games he was a terror coming through the line, the other guys we brought in just were not doing their share. So Jobi started to see too many doubles and the other guy couldn't make the O line pay for that. Shelton and Meder, although not world beaters....would push single blockers regularly. I stated from the beginning that's what we lost when we let those two go. I was ok with Shelton cause we had meder, than we let Meder go I was like is Jobi now the main block eater? That's not utilizing him properly at all. And the season played that out. Those guys we brought in a week before the season started, I mean they were almost complete no shows for the entire first half of the season. That odenigbo guy that was supposedly better than Nassib…..I don't think he ever suited up, like im not sure they even gave him a jersey. Not even sure he's still on the team or even the PS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choco Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Clevfan4life said: 2) what metric would u use then? Perhaps how many mean looks or insults were given to the qb across the line pre snap? ☕ When ya get some time, here's a good place to start. It's advanced metrics, but it's a normalized stat of how teams stack up against one another, rather than bulk stats. Don't get me wrong, bulk stats are useful and important, but they really don't tell much of a story by themselves. DVOA attempts to quantify those individual bulk stats into a normalized overall efficiency. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods#dvoa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenew23 Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 6 hours ago, Clevfan4life said: 1) i didnt just use tot d, i also talked about pass and rush D. U can only put so much "context" into yds given up on the ground and in the air. Over the course of 16 games total def is the final word. 2) what metric would u use then? Perhaps how many mean looks or insults were given to the qb across the line pre snap? ☕ DVOA is a much better stat for measuring the overall effectiveness of a defense. The Browns D finished with a -2.5%, good for 12th in the NFL. In 2017, they ranked 17th. On the flip side, our O finished ranked 18th, up from dead last in 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 On 1/1/2019 at 11:15 AM, tiamat63 said: What kind of read are we talking? IZ? OZ? Veer? Inverted Veer? Speed option? Are we reading an End? A tackle? A backer? Who is the pitch man? Any built in pass option with that? How far do you want to take this before you have to consult google....? My sarcasm was from your "hit the QB" comment... Lamar was hit plenty of times and also did a good job at protecting himself. Simpler point... the RPO is not the old "option". In the old run option the QB is fair game for any "clean" hit after pitching the ball, even under today's rules. Not so in the RPO where the QB is in the pocket where when he "pulls the ball" either: passes and is afforded all the current game's protections, or runs in which case, if he made the proper read, no defender is in a position to make a hit. Oops.. I see bjh already made this point... Meh.... Flag me for "piling on". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 On 1/1/2019 at 2:36 PM, Clevfan4life said: Your guy's rose colored glasses are the direct result of Baker taking over the team. Had he not, that defense would have completely folded by midseason. They would have been on the field forever. But if you objectively look at the defense, it's worse than last year and spent far fewer snaps on the field cause we finally got an offense worth a damn. The secondary is building something for sure, it's not like Im completely down on them. The talent at certain spots is absolutely there...this "should" have easily been a top 15 defense. The only reason I can conceive of why it wasn't are these weird hybrid looks I've been pointing out for prob 2 months now. They weren't fooling anyone and it looked like it wasn't putting our talented players in positions to make plays. That's on the DC, period. I could let Sunday go if it was the first time we got run over and it was our first look at a pro RO offense blah blah blah.....but we were near dead last against the run and you can't have that if you want a defense that supports the offense. That concept should not have to be explained to any of you. Now you're just sticking your fingers in your ears and loudly going "LaLaLaLa... La". How can you do that and type at the same time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 17 minutes ago, Tour2ma said: Simpler point... the RPO is not the old "option". In the old run option the QB is fair game for any "clean" hit after pitching the ball, even under today's rules. Not so in the RPO where the QB is in the pocket where when he "pulls the ball" either: passes and is afforded all the current game's protections, or runs in which case, if he made the proper read, no defender is in a position to make a hit. Oops.. I see bjh already made this point... Meh.... Flag me for "piling on". Have to take into consideration RPO's with pulls and rollouts/sprint outs. Don't think QB'a are afforded the same protection under the rules at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, tiamat63 said: Have to take into consideration RPO's with pulls and rollouts/sprint outs. Don't think QB'a are afforded the same protection under the rules at that point. True... same as a standard PAP bootleg where once outside the pocket some protections, e.g., going low on a tackle, are eliminated. However, others such as late, unnecessary pushes to the ground after the pass is away are still flagged. That said... I haven't really seen much of that action at the pro level, tia. You did bring to mind the one "old school" option BLT ran late in Week 17... the pitch was muffed... lol... too complex I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, Tour2ma said: True... same as a standard PAP bootleg where once outside the pocket some protections, e.g., going low on a tackle, are eliminated. However, others such as late, unnecessary pushes to the ground after the pass is away are still flagged. That said... I haven't really seen much of that action at the pro level, tia. You did bring to mind the one "old school" option BLT ran late in Week 17... the pitch was muffed... lol... too complex I guess. I haven't seen anything like that at the pro level. But Iowa State ran it to a treat in their bowl game. Point being, if Lamar fails to make unheard of improvements as a passer by next year then the Ravens will be looking for every wrinkle possible to float their offense. Just watching that game last week I could see a couple passes where Jackson was simply 'scanning' for an open receiver and not quite understanding what was in front of him. Weeden-esque As for the easy speed option that was muffed...? I guess some things can just be 'too' easy. 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 20 minutes ago, tiamat63 said: Just watching that game last week I could see a couple passes where Jackson was simply 'scanning' for an open receiver and not quite understanding what was in front of him. Weeden-esque As for the easy speed option that was muffed...? I guess some things can just be 'too' easy. 😂 The same guy who scouts told to be a wide receiver. He played in a simpler system vs simpler defenses in college. Those reads will come easier with time. I think he will be in the league a while just due to his speed/explosiveness/durability. Like a smaller, quicker Cam Newton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said: The same guy who scouts told to be a wide receiver. He played in a simpler system vs simpler defenses in college. Those reads will come easier with time. I think he will be in the league a while just due to his speed/explosiveness/durability. Like a smaller, quicker Cam Newton. As I wrote earlier... it's a race between Jackson developing his head and it getting knocked off. The latter maybe easier to say than do. Watched parts of the game again and he was not only very elusive, but his acceleration was amazing and he was bigger/taller than I remember him at Louisville. Nowhere near Newton size, but taller and strong enough to accelerate thru some arm tackles. Difficult target able to take some punishment, but it's the one he doesn't see coming that will get him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 19 minutes ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said: The same guy who scouts told to be a wide receiver. He played in a simpler system vs simpler defenses in college. Those reads will come easier with time. I think he will be in the league a while just due to his speed/explosiveness/durability. Like a smaller, quicker Cam Newton. Reads don't just become easy when the defense is designed to attack your strengths. Right now Lamar is in an offense that masks his severe deficiency as a passer. Which is why if Balt draws NE I'll be watching. Few coaches scheme against mobile passers better than Bill. They have the interior presence to run lighter box counts and still force Lamar lateral on keep or make him fight through contact on the inside Designs. And it isn't so much can Lamar improve. He absolutely can and probably will. Instead it is - can Lamar improve to the point of being a franchise passerpasser while staying alive? I have severe doubts and there is a large amount of evidence that would point to 'no'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, Tour2ma said: Difficult target able to take some punishment, but it's the one he doesn't see coming that will get him. His neck is built really thick. Maybe you’re right about him getting hit but I think he’ll be able to handle it. Also while moving that fast it’s hard to get a good shot on the QB. 1 minute ago, tiamat63 said: Reads don't just become easy when the defense is designed to attack your strengths. Right now Lamar is in an offense that masks his severe deficiency as a passer. Which is why if Balt draws NE I'll be watching. Few coaches scheme against mobile passers better than Bill. They have the interior presence to run lighter box counts and still force Lamar lateral on keep or make him fight through contact on the inside Designs. And it isn't so much can Lamar improve. He absolutely can and probably will. Instead it is - can Lamar improve to the point of being a franchise passer? I her severe doubts and there is a large amount of evidence that would point to 'no'. He is literally faster than most guys on any front 7..as well as lot of safeties.. he is a matchup nightmare because his arm is to be respected. He hits holes and cuts like an RB. When it comes to reads.. time will tell. If he can develop as a passer, it would be very bad news for the AFCN.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 19 minutes ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said: His neck is built really thick. Maybe you’re right about him getting hit but I think he’ll be able to handle it. Also while moving that fast it’s hard to get a good shot on the QB. He is literally faster than most guys on any front 7..as well as lot of safeties.. he is a matchup nightmare because his arm is to be respected. He hits holes and cuts like an RB. When it comes to reads.. time will tell. If he can develop as a passer, it would be very bad news for the AFCN.. That's cool, RG3 is still faster than any LB in the NFL and some safeties. I think you fail to understand this point - time and punishment is the enemy of any football player. Baltimore is asking their QB to double his contact rate and be a long-term franchise QB (10 years) That simply is unheard of and hard to imagine will happen in 2019. Edit: I would also say Lamar is every bit as raw as Tebow was. RG3 had better passing mechanics so this makes the improvement curve that much more steep. You're starting at a lower point than most young QB's and the Ravens know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 Lamar got harbaugh his ext tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Tour2ma said: Now you're just sticking your fingers in your ears and loudly going "LaLaLaLa... La". How can you do that and type at the same time? Ur right Our defense is so good. Its so good its near dead last in the nfl...no wait i mean its like 15th in some random obscure alternate universe where yards given up over the course of 16 games is not the measure anymore of a defense. Im sure if dick butkus was listening in on this thread he'd be like now fuck me running whats this dvda business? Lols......this is what stats kunts have done to football. You can give up almost the most amt of yds in the entire NFL but someone will pipe up and say but we havent "contextualized" these yards. Is a yard really a yard? What is a yard afterall? Who says a yard is a yard? What is this arbitrary measure of distance? Who says more yards isnt better than less yards? I defy these archaic measures of defensive competence that rely simply on lining up and beating ur man. Pfffttttt Lalalalalalalalalalalaa 🤗👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said: Ur right Our defense is so good. Its so good its near dead last in the nfl...no wait i mean its like 15th in some random obscure alternate universe where yards given up over the course of 16 games is not the measure anymore of a defense. Im sure if dick butkus was listening in on this thread he'd be like now fuck me running whats this dvda business? Lols......this is what stats kunts have done to football. You can give up almost the most amt of yds in the entire NFL but someone will pipe up and say but we havent "contextualized" these yards. Is a yard really a yard? What is a yard afterall? Who says a yard is a yard? What is this arbitrary measure of distance? Who says more yards isnt better than less yards? I defy these archaic measures of defensive competence that rely simply on lining up and beating ur man. Pfffttttt Lalalalalalalalalalalaa 🤗👍 Yeah, and I already pointed out by your same yardstick, Kansas City's defense is even worse than the Browns, and they're the #1 seed. We're going to try to improve the defense this off season- so stop bitching about what happened in 2018. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said: His neck is built really thick. Maybe you’re right about him getting hit but I think he’ll be able to handle it. Also while moving that fast it’s hard to get a good shot on the QB. He is literally faster than most guys on any front 7..as well as lot of safeties.. he is a matchup nightmare because his arm is to be respected. He hits holes and cuts like an RB. When it comes to reads.. time will tell. If he can develop as a passer, it would be very bad news for the AFCN.. As I and others have said at this point, Jackson is essentially a running back, with below average passing skills. Comparing his accuracy to Mayfield's is a joke. As I pointed out at the rate he's ran the ball this year (nearly 100 yards per game) he'd be on pace to win the rushing title next year. That's just plain crazy to think it's sustainable. And remember the physics equation. Force = Mass X Acceleration. The faster Lamar is moving, the bigger the hit he's going to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choco Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 Actually, I think you should consider this one... E=1/2mv^2 The energy at impact is proportional to velocity squared... 😉🍻 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 27 minutes ago, choco said: Actually, I think you should consider this one... E=1/2mv^2 The energy at impact is proportional to velocity squared... 😉🍻 Is this math or physics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 46 minutes ago, The Gipper said: Is this math or physics Physics is essentially math to describe an event. In this case how much energy is created when two objects collide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, hoorta said: Yeah, and I already pointed out by your same yardstick, Kansas City's defense is even worse than the Browns, and they're the #1 seed. We're going to try to improve the defense this off season- so stop bitching about what happened in 2018. because of Mahommes. The first team that controls the ball and runs all over them, while still scoring points at the end of those long drives..that's the crucial part....that team will win. Peyton Manning only had one ring with the Colts because the prolific pass rushing defense with mathis and freeney couldn't stop the run come playoff time. That's been written about countless times, that's not "my" analysis. Infact that's how I became so adamant about having a defense that can at least serviceably stop the run....because I watched a defense nerf the career of who imo is the greatest QB of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, choco said: Actually, I think you should consider this one... E=1/2mv^2 The energy at impact is proportional to velocity squared... 😉🍻 Interesting. So if we take the square root of the yds given up by this defense than divide by 2...….is that DVDA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said: because of Mahommes. The first team that controls the ball and runs all over them, while still scoring points at the end of those long drives..that's the crucial part....that team will win. Peyton Manning only had one ring with the Colts because the prolific pass rushing defense with mathis and freeney couldn't stop the run come playoff time. That's been written about countless times, that's not "my" analysis. Infact that's how I became so adamant about having a defense that can at least serviceably stop the run....because I watched a defense nerf the career of who imo is the greatest QB of all time. We're arguing about the same thing- don't get defensive. Do the Browns need to improve the run defense to be a serious Super Bowl contender? Absolutely. We can argue about the specifics on how to get there. Now if Baker takes the next step and starts putting up Mahomes numbers this year, it won't be quite as important. The 2019 goal is the playoffs, Super Bowl is a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 Just now, hoorta said: We're arguing about the same thing- don't get defensive. Do the Browns need to improve the run defense to be a serious Super Bowl contender? Absolutely. We can argue about the specifics on how to get there. Now if Baker takes the next step and starts putting up Mahomes numbers this year, it won't be quite as important. The 2019 goal is the playoffs, Super Bowl is a stretch. The SB is not a stretch to me. I watched a rookie QB put up historic numbers with a "decent" but cobbled together WR crew. Face it, this is not the WR corp we thought we were going to have at the beginning of the year. We expected Landry ofc but also Coleman and Josh to be the guys. What's happened is amazing and I give those guys credit for stepping up, but it's Baker mainly. We have to strike now. Im not suggesting going out and finding Mack like contracts, like im not suggesting we spread our cheeks for a diva like Brown to come in and fuck everything up....but we need to move now with some FA signings to shore up key deficiencies so that we have the north wrapped up next year "easily" and we're in the discussion for AFC championship. What we do the next 1-2 years will determine how well we can keep talent like Myles. To me Garrett is every bit as important as Baker because like a good QB, players want to come play with other stud defensive players like that. Especially down lineman. Hard to attract a great pass rusher to ur team cause you have a great CB, but another pass rusher or DL like Myles and that brings em here. And that KC defense, it was fine for them to coast through the season on Mahommes back....but in the playoffs, if they think they're gonna get away with that....their HC should bring in Manning to have a talk with them about how his historic offensive performances meant nothing come playoff time when he couldn't get on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, choco said: Actually, I think you should consider this one... E=1/2mv^2 The energy at impact is proportional to velocity squared... 😉🍻 58 minutes ago, hoorta said: Physics is essentially math to describe an event. In this case how much energy is created when two objects collide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 wait, gtfo they made a 2nd hot tub time machine? how the fuck did that get greenlighted? was it straight to on demand or some shit? God, after the 1st one....how the fuck? who pays for this shit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 3 hours ago, tiamat63 said: That's cool, RG3 is still faster than any LB in the NFL and some safeties. I think you fail to understand this point - time and punishment is the enemy of any football player. Baltimore is asking their QB to double his contact rate and be a long-term franchise QB (10 years) That simply is unheard of and hard to imagine will happen in 2019. Edit: I would also say Lamar is every bit as raw as Tebow was. RG3 had better passing mechanics so this makes the improvement curve that much more steep. You're starting at a lower point than most young QB's and the Ravens know that. RG3 is not that fast anymore, bro. He wasn’t the same after the injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, hoorta said: That's just plain crazy to think it's sustainable. And remember the physics equation. Force = Mass X Acceleration. The faster Lamar is moving, the bigger the hit he's going to take. It’s not sustainable.. if he develops as a passer, he won’t run as much therefore take less hits. As for hits, there are more variables to take into consideration, like center of gravity, weight of players, etc. not everyone is built the same.. All that I’m trying to say is that he has the potential to be scary good. Of course if their run game/defense was bad, he’d be struggling right now. I get that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said: RG3 is not that fast anymore, bro. He wasn’t the same after the injury. So you're admitting he was fast before the injury? Funny, that didn't seem to save him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 Just now, tiamat63 said: So you're admitting he was fast before the injury? Funny, that didn't seem to save him... RG3 was a system QB. He had guys wide open because of the zone run scheme with Alfred Morris tearing it up. He never had the arm to be a threat from he pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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