Personal Conduct

[Ibleedbrown]

If l’m being honest the board has gotten tamer in the years since l’ve joined, and l’m not really a fan of that. At one point in time this was a pretty intimidating place and you had to be prepared to spar if you voiced a dissenting opinion.

I’m personally a fan of the board villains, as l like to call them. The Ghoulies and Stöckton Shörts and Baking up Turnovers of the world. It seems there’s a recent trend of banning or time out-ing people like that, and again, l’m not a fan. I’m sure that anyone who watches traffic on the board sees a spike in activity when the villains are at it.

I get that the debating can get circular in nature, 2 mofos standing their ground and all, but sometimes, real insight can be gleaned reading between the lines of a debate between folks on opposite ends of the spectrum. 

I rather like the “toughest fans in pro sports” as a motto for the board and would like to see us collectively show that thick skin on an everyday basis.

[tiamat63]

19 minutes ago, Ibleedbrown said:

If l’m being honest the board has gotten tamer in the years since l’ve joined, and l’m not really a fan of that. At one point in time this was a pretty intimidating place and you had to be prepared to spar if you voiced a dissenting opinion.

I’m personally a fan of the board villains, as l like to call them. The Ghoulies and Stöckton Shörts and Baking up Turnovers of the world. It seems there’s a recent trend of banning or time out-ing people like that, and again, l’m not a fan. I’m sure that anyone who watches traffic on the board sees a spike in activity when the villains are at it.

I get that the debating can get circular in nature, 2 mofos standing their ground and all, but sometimes, real insight can be gleaned reading between the lines of a debate between folks on opposite ends of the spectrum. 

I rather like the “toughest fans in pro sports” as a motto for the board and would like to see us collectively show that thick skin on an everyday basis.

These aren't "villains" - they're trolls.  They offer nothing in terms of intelligent contribution to advance the board as a whole.   It sucks having to sort through threads for reasonable content let alone entire pages.

[jbluhm86]

27 minutes ago, Ibleedbrown said:

If l’m being honest the board has gotten tamer in the years since l’ve joined, and l’m not really a fan of that. At one point in time this was a pretty intimidating place and you had to be prepared to spar if you voiced a dissenting opinion.

I’m personally a fan of the board villains, as l like to call them. The Ghoulies and Stöckton Shörts and Baking up Turnovers of the world. It seems there’s a recent trend of banning or time out-ing people like that, and again, l’m not a fan. I’m sure that anyone who watches traffic on the board sees a spike in activity when the villains are at it.

I get that the debating can get circular in nature, 2 mofos standing their ground and all, but sometimes, real insight can be gleaned reading between the lines of a debate between folks on opposite ends of the spectrum. 

I rather like the “toughest fans in pro sports” as a motto for the board and would like to see us collectively show that thick skin on an everyday basis.

Peruse the pol board if civility is starting to get stale. You'll get called a browshirt communist or "ngr fgt" in no time. 

[hoorta]

7 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

just remember guys these "lax" rules go out the window when someone's a friend of the moderators. It's nice talk tho. 

I try not to play favorites. 

3 hours ago, Ibleedbrown said:

If l’m being honest the board has gotten tamer in the years since l’ve joined, and l’m not really a fan of that. At one point in time this was a pretty intimidating place and you had to be prepared to spar if you voiced a dissenting opinion.

I’m personally a fan of the board villains, as l like to call them. The Ghoulies and Stöckton Shörts and Baking up Turnovers of the world. It seems there’s a recent trend of banning or time out-ing people like that, and again, l’m not a fan. I’m sure that anyone who watches traffic on the board sees a spike in activity when the villains are at it.

I get that the debating can get circular in nature, 2 mofos standing their ground and all, but sometimes, real insight can be gleaned reading between the lines of a debate between folks on opposite ends of the spectrum. 

I rather like the “toughest fans in pro sports” as a motto for the board and would like to see us collectively show that thick skin on an everyday basis.

"These aren't "villains" - they're trolls.  They offer nothing in terms of intelligent contribution to advance the board as a whole.   It sucks having to sort through threads for reasonable content let alone entire pages."  

Here's my POV as a Mod, and for those who don't already know- the reason I'm a Mod in the first place is I'm the Night Watchman, making sure some pissed  off opposing fans aren't posting porn on the board at 2 AM.  

 ^^^  I'll agree with Tia here, but to split semantic hairs- they aren't technically "trolls", they're flamebaiters. As a Mod, sometimes you have to draw the line between a dissenting opinion- and pure flamebait, that has no basis in reality. I like to deal in reality, not with guys who are one step away from the Flat Earth Society- should we let those guys post here too, contrary to all evidence to the contrary?  

Baking got shown the door- and AFAIK, he's not permanently banned- because he copped a very unrealistic attitude that unless you're holier than a saint, I can't support you. Great- but the NFL isn't a collection of choir boys. 

Let's take as a prime example the departed Ghoolie's trolling assertion that offensive linemen are "dime a dozen".  He never could come up with a counter argument as to why NFL GMs who get paid millions of dollars to assess talent- routinely draft offensive linemen in the first round. If he was such a f**king great talent evaluator, he'd have a job in the NFL instead of playing the accordion on the Vegas strip for tips. 

There's guys who post here who have ten or more times the football knowledge of a certain board hog egomaniac who can't ever admit he's wrong- they just don't draw attention to their posting "hey, look at me, bow down to my incredible football brilliance."  

Check your ego at the door- one of the most humble guys I ever met in person was Ozzie Newsome, and he just might make the HOF again as a GM.  

 

[Clevfan4life]

52 minutes ago, hoorta said:

I try not to play favorites.

ive personally never heard of even tge slightest issue with u but nepotism at other parts of the board, nepotism that goes to the highest reaches here.....is "quite" profound and quite frankly almost openly flaunted.

[Dutch Oven]

13 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said:

ive personally never heard of even tge slightest issue with u but nepotism at other parts of the board, nepotism that goes to the highest reaches here.....is "quite" profound and quite frankly almost openly flaunted.

Jesus, are you still butthurt one of your threads got locked months ago?

Are you familiar with the movie 'Frozen'? There's a pretty popular song from it about letting go. 😁

[Dutch Oven]

3 hours ago, jbluhm86 said:

Peruse the pol board if civility is starting to get stale. You'll get called a browshirt communist or "ngr fgt" in no time. 

I can only imagine the amount of stupidity that goes on over there. 

I'm sure geniuses like calfox and DieHard wallow in their ignorance over there with glee. 

[Clevfan4life]

Just now, Dutch Oven said:

Jesus, are you still butthurt one of your threads got locked months ago?

oh no....nothing to do with the browns section. The people involved know whats up...im not gonna talk about it here. 

 

but yeah what u mentioned was also kind of bullshit now that u reminded me of it. But that had nothing to do with bosrd nep

[Dutch Oven]

11 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

oh no....nothing to do with the browns section. The people involved know whats up...im not gonna talk about it here. 

 

but yeah what u mentioned was also kind of bullshit now that u reminded me of it. But that had nothing to do with bosrd nep

Oh, I see. To be honest the Browns forum is the only one I ever really bother to look at. You couldn't pay me to look at the political forum. 

[Ibleedbrown]

12 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

These aren't "villains" - they're trolls.  They offer nothing in terms of intelligent contribution to advance the board as a whole.   It sucks having to sort through threads for reasonable content let alone entire pages.

I believe villains are separate from trolls. The Ghoul is what he is, but somewhere deep down he clearly has a deep seated investment in the Browns in his own wierd way. Same with Shörts, who l recall incessantly went on and on about how some Browns player sucked in his Rainman like way, but quite frankly he wasn’t wrong. 

I guess l would differentiate trolls, who just like to ruffle feathers, with villains, who like to ruffle feathers while talking about something they’re truly passionate about in the process. 

I’m pretty sure a lot of us like a good football talk sparring match from time to time, and villains are often willing opponents.

[Flugel]

11 hours ago, hoorta said:

I try not to play favorites. 

"These aren't "villains" - they're trolls.  They offer nothing in terms of intelligent contribution to advance the board as a whole.   It sucks having to sort through threads for reasonable content let alone entire pages."  

Here's my POV as a Mod, and for those who don't already know- the reason I'm a Mod in the first place is I'm the Night Watchman, making sure some pissed  off opposing fans aren't posting porn on the board at 2 AM.  

 ^^^  I'll agree with Tia here, but to split semantic hairs- they aren't technically "trolls", they're flamebaiters. As a Mod, sometimes you have to draw the line between a dissenting opinion- and pure flamebait, that has no basis in reality. I like to deal in reality, not with guys who are one step away from the Flat Earth Society- should we let those guys post here too, contrary to all evidence to the contrary? 

There's guys who post here who have ten or more times the football knowledge of a certain board hog egomaniac who can't ever admit he's wrong- they just don't draw attention to their posting "hey, look at me, bow down to my incredible football brilliance."  

Check your ego at the door- one of the most humble guys I ever met in person was Ozzie Newsome, and he just might make the HOF again as a GM.  

 

Larry, you guys do a great job on volunteer pay.  A lot of the mods today were regulars on the first Browns board I joined back in the day (Zombo, you and Mark) so I have a tendency to forget yuz all carry that responsibility.

The guy I argued with the most was Atenears (Stan).  Having said that, he had a smart asss quality about him that had me LMFAO while he was ripping my posts to shreds.  He also treated Camp Couch like it was a misplaced Kentucky Sorority house. That's when I discovered how freakin funny Zombo was busting Stan's balls.  Anyway, I piled up some TOS violations at warped speed in the first couple weeks. When I got the hat-trick, Stan announced "I KNEW HE WAS A KEEPER" as I headed to the penalty box.  The lady with the screen name Boo - wanted to be Barney Fyfe when she got older so a few us had her just living the dream.  Stan got so sick of her tattling and AOL's rules - it gave him the idea and kick in the pants to start up a board.

One of the last conversations I had with Stan he said "Flugel is Ghoolie THAT bad to where I gotta hear about him for 3 hours at a tailgate and during the game from people? If so, why does everyone read him and respond to him to the extent those become the biggest threads of views and participation?"  I said he's not bad if you only want Cheech and Chong baby sitting his asss without pay.  Truth be told - he IS that bad to people or you wouldn't be hearing the complaints. He goes out of his way to disrespect Hoorta all the time. A lot of people don't know this but once upon a time Stan and Zombo had Ghoolie and his side-kick quarantined to their own small kennel (like Zombo did in here not too long ago) where it was anything goes and you deserve what you get upon entering.  BUT, those 2 trolls also frequented another Browns Board to trash and slander Stan.  He sent me a PM saying "you gotta see what those 2 clowns are saying about me and you're really good at pissing people off Flugel." How about this for a gee thanks?  I said give me the name of that dump and I'll get their skin crawling and doing aerobics with the inconvenient truth. I went in there with the attitude of "if they ain't cryin I ain't tryin" and came out of there with a bunch of recruits for our board that wanted to see more of the same. Anyway, I reminded Stan of that capability/extent before he and Ghoolie had some sort of "Come to Jesus" moment about their past in Vegas. I told him I don't know why we always let Ghoolie out of the kennel and into the mainstream when that was a perfect way to end the complaints to mods about him. It worked as an anything goes quarantine much like a sign in Florida that reads don't feed the alligators.  If someone chooses to feed an alligator - they have to be willing to wrestle something that wants to bite a lot more than the bait in their hand.  Here's the thing, when someone knows how to wrestle the alligator - it's entertaining.  I'm not gonna lie.  There was nothing funnier than watching Dutch hunt Ghoolie for FREE! 

FWIW, you're going to get opinionated people on message boards.  That's what they recruit so it is what it is.  That old saying you can't have 2 alphas in 1 litter was in BC (Before Cellphones).  We got a lot of alphas in here and that's what makes it fun to read.  The best advice I can give anyone is TRY to remember why Stan started this board.  If someone has an ego or confidence in their research you disapprove of - show them why and have the type of fun this board was designed to give you.  I think you always do a good job of showing someone why you disagree at least in my experiences disagreeing with your ugly asss.  You old bastard. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Flugel

[Ibleedbrown]

10 hours ago, hoorta said:

^^^  I'll agree with Tia here, but to split semantic hairs- they aren't technically "trolls", they're flamebaiters. As a Mod, sometimes you have to draw the line between a dissenting opinion- and pure flamebait, that has no basis in reality. I like to deal in reality, not with guys who are one step away from the Flat Earth Society- should we let those guys post here too, contrary to all evidence to the contrary?  

Baking got shown the door- and AFAIK, he's not permanently banned- because he copped a very unrealistic attitude that unless you're holier than a saint, I can't support you. Great- but the NFL isn't a collection of choir boys. 

Yeah, flamebaiters = villains, l think we see eye to eye that there is a difference between trolls and those guys. I dunno. I guess from a personal standpoint the exchanges between flamebaiters and those who spar with them have influenced how l watch football, as strange as that might sound. 

The Ghoul’s anti-Olineman stance was one of the things that made me wonder just how important the Oline play was, so l started studying it. Between that and Tour’s Oline breakdowns he used to do, as well as insight from Tiamat, Gumby, and other more knowledgable posters, l have learned a lot, and now it’s my favorite nuts and bolts thing to watch in a football game. 

And with Turnovers guy, l think his take on things was just echoing some concerns we all had. With the Hunt signing l must admit in the back of my head was “is this a good idea?” But reading exchanges between himself and others l get to sort out any minor anxiety and at least arrive at a stopping point. If you look hard you can find value in the strangest of places.

[jbluhm86]

11 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I can only imagine the amount of stupidity that goes on over there.

The newest trend is that criticizing the source material someone uses in a debate is synonymous with a direct personal attack, if you wanted a small taste of what goes on over there.

[calfoxwc]

2 hours ago, jbluhm86 said:

The newest trend is that criticizing the source material someone uses in a debate is synonymous with a direct personal attack, if you wanted a small taste of what goes on over there.

criticizing the SOURCE. not content. criticizing the link...or person who wrote the article, not the article itself, not the content in the article. that is the point.

[tiamat63]

3 hours ago, Ibleedbrown said:

I believe villains are separate from trolls. The Ghoul is what he is, but somewhere deep down he clearly has a deep seated investment in the Browns in his own wierd way. Same with Shörts, who l recall incessantly went on and on about how some Browns player sucked in his Rainman like way, but quite frankly he wasn’t wrong. 

I guess l would differentiate trolls, who just like to ruffle feathers, with villains, who like to ruffle feathers while talking about something they’re truly passionate about in the process. 

I’m pretty sure a lot of us like a good football talk sparring match from time to time, and villains are often willing opponents.

Good point.     Stalkers aren't stalkers or individuals with dangerous obsessions - they're just somebody who admires a particular person so god damn much, they just can't get enough of them.  

 

There are no "opponents" and shouldn't be.  This isn't a fucking soap opera.  It's a community to share collective ideas, thoughts and, in the browns case - sorrows.     I can't stand when people pretend to be something they're not.   In this case - Ghoolie pretending to be some kind of high class badass. 

[Ibleedbrown]

20 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Good point.     Stalkers aren't stalkers or individuals with dangerous obsessions - they're just somebody who admires a particular person so god damn much, they just can't get enough of them.  

 

There are no "opponents" and shouldn't be.  This isn't a fucking soap opera.  It's a community to share collective ideas, thoughts and, in the browns case - sorrows.     I can't stand when people pretend to be something they're not.   In this case - Ghoolie pretending to be some kind of high class badass. 

There you go, stalkers with panache, to use your analogy. A more interesting variety of stalker if you will.

I’m not going to say you and l both find value in the same things. I’ve got my opinions on the matter, you have yours. If semantics wrangles your weenie then substitute the word “opponent” with “the guy making the counter argument to your argument”, which is where we are right now.

And how could you sleep with Jessica?!?You knew she was engaged to Blake! Just wait until Stefano hears about this!

[ATOM]

well why don't you just freaking get rid of the report button seems that would solve the problem 

[hoorta]

5 hours ago, ATOM said:

well why don't you just freaking get rid of the report button seems that would solve the problem 

The report button does have it's uses, like if there happened to be a bot attack to the board. I haven't seen one of those for a long while- but way back- we did have some cyber smarties hack the board for kicks.  I think we've mentioned- DONT use the report button unless it's something extremely serious. Not only will all the Mods see it- but so will Kathy, and she takes a pretty dim view of people running to the Mods because they got their feelings hurt. Might get you banned.  

If you have an issue, PM one of the Mods first. Think before you hit "report".  

[Unsympathetic]

On 5/17/2019 at 6:29 PM, Ibleedbrown said:

the board villains, as l like to call them

Each of the people who others would throw into that category, however, are the single most thin-skinned crybabies on the forum.  100% of them absolutely cannot handle being told they are wrong and to shut their piehole - with precisely the same vitriol and wild fact-free assertion that they attempt to claim as somehow their right.  [This trait always fascinated me.. you're going to swing at someone and then get shocked when they swing back? That's not how any of this works..] As is expected from a person who crumbles when they're not in control, they don't defend their position with anything resembling objectivity - all of their "defense" is pure attack on the personality/grammar/wit of the person who has the temerity to respond.

You know, like an @ hole.

The reason they are trolls is that they do not advance knowledge/understanding/discussion in any way... they're just annoying.  "Villain" would actually be an upgrade because a villain has a plan.  These mongrels don't have a position.. they just want to find an excuse to type angry personal attacks.

The forum is better for all of those accounts [Ghoolie, Shorts etc] being perma-banned.

 

Also: Don't get caught up into the "But they have a single nugget of objective point!" notion.. No, they don't -- never did, never will.  The appropriate comparison is to consider how a different forum member would act if they actually wanted to contribute.  If hoorta sincerely wondered "Are OL all fat and easily replaceable?" the way he would move forward would be: Make a thread with the question as OP, sit back, and learn something as Tour and Tia and Mud and several others show why an OL of 5 Desmond Harrisons is a quick path to 1-15.  But trolls don't... because the people doing the trolling PERSONALLY cannot stop themselves from continuing with the ad hominem attacks.

[or you could watch a video of last season's cam newton showing that all cam's problems were the lack of time to step and point his front foot because of pressure up the middle which led to inaccuracy, nothing to do with "his shoulder"]

Yes, the trolls are that bad - and yes, they deserve to get the banhammer.

[tiamat63]

4 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

 If hoorta sincerely wondered "Are OL all fat and easily replaceable?" the way he would move forward would be: Make a thread with the question as OP, sit back, and learn something as Tour and Tia and Mud and several others show why an OL of 5 Desmond Harrisons is a quick path to 1-15.  But trolls don't... because the people doing the trolling PERSONALLY cannot stop themselves from continuing with the ad hominem attacks.

 

I'll never feel deserving of such fine company and football minds but I do appreciate the nod here, Symp.  

[calfoxwc]

and, Flugels WAS an offensive lineman - he knows serious legit stuff on the oline. He's my Doug Dieken when I have an oline question.

[hx214]

I didn't even know there was a report button.... I thought that logo in the corner was on of those Instagram buttons.....

[Dutch Oven]

19 hours ago, hx214 said:

I didn't even know there was a report button.... I thought that logo in the corner was on of those Instagram buttons.....

Most people not named calfox are not aware that a report button exists, actually. 

[Ibleedbrown]

On 6/24/2019 at 8:29 AM, Unsympathetic said:

Each of the people who others would throw into that category, however, are the single most thin-skinned crybabies on the forum.  100% of them absolutely cannot handle being told they are wrong and to shut their piehole - with precisely the same vitriol and wild fact-free assertion that they attempt to claim as somehow their right.  [This trait always fascinated me.. you're going to swing at someone and then get shocked when they swing back? That's not how any of this works..] As is expected from a person who crumbles when they're not in control, they don't defend their position with anything resembling objectivity - all of their "defense" is pure attack on the personality/grammar/wit of the person who has the temerity to respond.

You know, like an @ hole.

The reason they are trolls is that they do not advance knowledge/understanding/discussion in any way... they're just annoying.  "Villain" would actually be an upgrade because a villain has a plan.  These mongrels don't have a position.. they just want to find an excuse to type angry personal attacks.

The forum is better for all of those accounts [Ghoolie, Shorts etc] being perma-banned.

 

Also: Don't get caught up into the "But they have a single nugget of objective point!" notion.. No, they don't -- never did, never will.  The appropriate comparison is to consider how a different forum member would act if they actually wanted to contribute.  If hoorta sincerely wondered "Are OL all fat and easily replaceable?" the way he would move forward would be: Make a thread with the question as OP, sit back, and learn something as Tour and Tia and Mud and several others show why an OL of 5 Desmond Harrisons is a quick path to 1-15.  But trolls don't... because the people doing the trolling PERSONALLY cannot stop themselves from continuing with the ad hominem attacks.

[or you could watch a video of last season's cam newton showing that all cam's problems were the lack of time to step and point his front foot because of pressure up the middle which led to inaccuracy, nothing to do with "his shoulder"]

Yes, the trolls are that bad - and yes, they deserve to get the banhammer.

Many words on the matter, and l get where you’re coming from and appreciate it. All l can say is l disagree on some points. We all know how to scroll fast, and it’s fairly easy to identify bullshit you don’t want to deal with. 

The internet’s been around a good while now. Everyone knows (or should know) the best way to thwart a troll is to ignore him.

But sometimes we get a wild hair up our ass and feel the inclination. Call it a full moon, call it a drinking problem, but there are times we all want to lash out from time to time. Therapy l suppose. One less bar fight in the world.

And we’re well equipped to handle that. Toughest fans in pro sports. Thin skinnedness reveals itself pretty quickly. If you’re not in the mood, then scroll fast.

And to your point that villains don’t advance knowledge, l very much disagree. Folks with a dissenting polar opposite opinion are exactly what advances knowledge, because it makes the rest of us research further. The world would still be considered flat if someone didn’t have the balls to research further.

[hoorta]

6 hours ago, Ibleedbrown said:

Many words on the matter, and l get where you’re coming from and appreciate it. All l can say is l disagree on some points. We all know how to scroll fast, and it’s fairly easy to identify bullshit you don’t want to deal with. 

The internet’s been around a good while now. Everyone knows (or should know) the best way to thwart a troll is to ignore him.

But sometimes we get a wild hair up our ass and feel the inclination. Call it a full moon, call it a drinking problem, but there are times we all want to lash out from time to time. Therapy l suppose. One less bar fight in the world.

And we’re well equipped to handle that. Toughest fans in pro sports. Thin skinnedness reveals itself pretty quickly. If you’re not in the mood, then scroll fast.

And to your point that villains don’t advance knowledge, l very much disagree. Folks with a dissenting polar opposite opinion are exactly what advances knowledge, because it makes the rest of us research further. The world would still be considered flat if someone didn’t have the balls to research further.

I'll say this- Ghoolie was a very good debater, I engaged him way more than I should have, but his football POV was so off base it was just silly. That's why it's called flamebait, and in all honesty, I shouldn't have responded as often as I did. Frankly, when the Browns were sucking in the pre-Dorsey years predicting the Browns were going to stink yet again was about as difficult as saying water runs downhill. Ghoolie was a master at that. If you didn't notice- when he got a new ISP moving to Vegas- he snuck back on here telling the world Saquon Barkley was indeed the right pick, and Baker would have lasted until #4. My ass, Trollie. When I previously pointed out to Mr. Troll, Tom Brady has more Championships than Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, and Ladainian Tomlinson combined. 

You're never going to convince a really good troll\flamebaiter that their POV is dead wrong, they just very skillfully change the topic. LOL, maybe (we won't) let Ghoolie back on for a week when Joe "dime a dozen, never did anything" Thomas gets his name called for the HOF.   

[tiamat63]

Here's the flaw in attempting to parallel trolls with people giving "dissenting opinions".       They're often not backed up with anything resembling reality or fact.  Case in point - Ghoolie and his, well, just about everything.  But mostly his arguments and constant, weekly threads on lineman. 

 

Some of my firsts posts on this board were to (loudly) express my criticism of Manziel as both a QB, a person, leader and Haslam for the massive mistake of taking him.  I backed up my opinion with examples of his shortcomings on film and off the field.   Less than a year later my belief was fully vindicated with his eventual grand flame out. 

 

That is how you give an opinion contrary to what is the popular idea.  Present your argument, support it with things grounded in reality, then sit back and watch.       Maybe gloat just a little... 

[hoorta]

16 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Here's the flaw in attempting to parallel trolls with people giving "dissenting opinions".       They're often not backed up with anything resembling reality or fact.  Case in point - Ghoolie and his, well, just about everything.  But mostly his arguments and constant, weekly threads on lineman. 

Some of my firsts posts on this board were to (loudly) express my criticism of Manziel as both a QB, a person, leader and Haslam for the massive mistake of taking him.  I backed up my opinion with examples of his shortcomings on film and off the field.   Less than a year later my belief was fully vindicated with his eventual grand flame out. 

That is how you give an opinion contrary to what is the popular idea.  Present your argument, support it with things grounded in reality, then sit back and watch.       Maybe gloat just a little... 

Exactly Tia. Off field issues aside, there was plenty not to like about Johnny Football pre-draft. 

Don't want to blow my own horn too loudly- but anyone who even took a cursory glance at Deshone Kizer's play at Notre Dame ( I watched at least six complete games) would easily have come to the opinion- this guys sucks, no pro potential, and the majority of the time can't hit the broadside of a barn with his passes. 

[OldBrownsFan]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

Exactly Tia. Off field issues aside, there was plenty not to like about Johnny Football pre-draft. 

Don't want to blow my own horn too loudly- but anyone who even took a cursory glance at Deshone Kizer's play at Notre Dame ( I watched at least six complete games) would easily have come to the opinion- this guys sucks, no pro potential, and the majority of the time can't hit the broadside of a barn with his passes. 

What former Browns coach Mike Pettine said about Manziel I think could also apply to Kizer. Pettine said Manziel showed "flashes of potential".  Just flashes, nothing consistent.  I saw Kizer make some great throws at Notre Dame  but he was never consistent, only flashes every now and then of potential.

 

[TexasAg1969]

18 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

What former Browns coach Mike Pettine said about Manziel I think could also apply to Kizer. Pettine said Manziel showed "flashes of potential".  Just flashes, nothing consistent.  I saw Kizer make some great throws at Notre Dame  but he was never consistent, only flashes every now and then of potential.

 

The thing is Manziel had a very high completion rate in college. It was the immaturity, the substance problem and the lack of work ethic that killed that very real athletic potential that we now are seeing come to full fruition in our own Baker Mayfield who is driven by work ethic and need to learn and improve daily.

[OldBrownsFan]

1 minute ago, TexasAg1969 said:

The thing is Manziel had a very high completion rate in college. It was the immaturity, the substance problem and the lack of work ethic that killed that very real athletic potential that we now are seeing come to full fruition in our own Baker Mayfield who is driven by work ethic and need to learn and improve daily.

I'm sure you followed Manziel more than me in college Tex. I only saw Manziel in a few of the bigger games on television. I did follow Kizer and he could impress at times but he never showed any consistency. What you are saying is something I have thought about. What "if" Manziel had an excellent work ethic? We will never know that answer because he had a terrible work ethic and failed.