Browns going after Ramsey

[flyingfooldoug]

22 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Yup.... it's become a trend.

I can see a shorter rookie contract but not do away with it. And since why can players mandate their team. The NBA blows chunks because of that. 

[Tour2ma]

It's not as if NFL players are now picking their HCs...

... oops...

... didn't our QB kinda do that?

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, Ibleedbrown said:

The fact that he’s requesting a trade after 2 games kinda irks me. I’m more interested in a player who want to be a part of my team than a guy who want to be a part of whatever team’s best for him.

Or whatever team will offer him the most money... 

[flyingfooldoug]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

It's not as if NFL players are now picking their HCs...

... oops...

... didn't our QB kinda do that?

We had an opening. Our QB had nothing to do with winless hues track record

[medicineman]

We don't need a player who seems to bring drama and that is what he is doing In Jax and that is why they both want to part ways. He wants out and they want him gone, I was surprised to see him play the entire game though, Thought they would want to keep their "Trade bait" safe.

[flyingfooldoug]

17 minutes ago, medicineman said:

We don't need a player who seems to bring drama and that is what he is doing In Jax and that is why they both want to part ways. He wants out and they want him gone, I was surprised to see him play the entire game though, Thought they would want to keep their "Trade bait" safe.

Is it drama? Or.... trying to get out of a rookie contract?  Looking like the NBA. Players choosing their team is utter bullshit

[Tour2ma]

5 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

We had an opening. Our QB had nothing to do with winless hues track record

The "point" was around the selection of the new HC... not the demise of the old.

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

The "point" was around the selection of the new HC... not the demise of the old.

The reading comprehension of some of the posters on here is staggering, isn't it?

 

[Unsympathetic]

I disagree with this move because we need to be able to sign OL in FA next season and/or in the draft.  I think OL should be added to the list of skill positions.  We just saw what happened to Andrew Luck without an OL, and we can't let that happen to Baker.  OL is the lifeblood of any team.

[medicineman]

12 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

Is it drama? Or.... trying to get out of a rookie contract?  Looking like the NBA. Players choosing their team is utter bullshit

TBH I never even thought of it like that but I bet you are right. For the life of me that has never even crossed my mind. I bet that is exactly what it is. And if we let this clown get away with it others will follow suit. 

[Icecube]

19 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

It's not as if NFL players are now picking their HCs...

... oops...

... didn't our QB kinda do that?

It appears so. We'll see how it works out. 

[Flugel]

On 9/20/2019 at 5:25 PM, Tour2ma said:

 

What about moving Ramsey to Safety? He has range... he hits. Seems to me he could play either spot.

Yahtzee!

 

[Icecube]

On 9/20/2019 at 12:20 AM, hoorta said:

No sense to go after a one year rent a player at the cost of (at least) a first round pick. Ramsey's rookie deal balloons to $13 million next year. Why would we want him with both Ward and Williams already on the roster?   

I agree, but they were looking at a deal, but Jags didn't get what they wanted (2 firsts) and it appears they chose to hang on to him. It appears Dorsey doesn't fear adding too many "volatile" players regardless. I feel you can overdo adding too many guys like that. To win a ring, you MUST have solid chemistry amongst the team, it is a MUST.

[Comeonman]

7 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

I disagree with this move because we need to be able to sign OL in FA next season and/or in the draft.  I think OL should be added to the list of skill positions.  We just saw what happened to Andrew Luck without an OL, and we can't let that happen to Baker.  OL is the lifeblood of any team.

Nope. Dime a dozen fatasses. 

[Tour2ma]

You can get very good OL on Day 2 of the draft... and good "prospects" on Day 3. That said...

The one area where's Dorsey's talent evaluation record is weak... spotty at best... is OL.

[SdBacker80]

Oline is a lot about your scheme/coach, and your QB.  I like our Oline coach and our QB did a great job last year making quick decisions- when that happened was Robinson or Hubbard a problem?  And when it happens again this year - they will not be a problem.  I still think we target a LT or RT with our 1 or 2 round pick.  But the folks wanting a complete overhaul- I think it’s completely unnecessary.  The interior has actually played well 

We need TE- I’ve lost faith in Njoku.  If he was a stellar run blocker I could live with his drops but there is no way we pay him after his rookie deal.

We could use a Safety too.  I’d prefer not to trade away draft capital for a DB/S in Ramsey who we need to throw huge money at- unless you feel Ward is not in the future plans.  So you pay Ramsey and let Ward Walk after his rookie deal. 

[Ibleedbrown]

50 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

You can get very good OL on Day 2 of the draft... and good "prospects" on Day 3. That said...

The one area where's Dorsey's talent evaluation record is weak... spotty at best... is OL.

I’d heard that about his OL track record so l did a little research a few weeks back and focused on Dorsey OL draft picks. His track record is better than l thought it would be.

[Canton Mike]

22 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Oline is a lot about your scheme/coach, and your QB.  I like our Oline coach and our QB did a great job last year making quick decisions- when that happened was Robinson or Hubbard a problem?  And when it happens again this year - they will not be a problem.  I still think we target a LT or RT with our 1 or 2 round pick.  But the folks wanting a complete overhaul- I think it’s completely unnecessary.  The interior has actually played well 

We need TE- I’ve lost faith in Njoku.  If he was a stellar run blocker I could live with his drops but there is no way we pay him after his rookie deal.

We could use a Safety too.  I’d prefer not to trade away draft capital for a DB/S in Ramsey who we need to throw huge money at- unless you feel Ward is not in the future plans.  So you pay Ramsey and let Ward Walk after his rookie deal. 

I am also not enamored with Njoku. With his level of blocking, he'd better damn well have "glue fingers" & he does NOT! I consider TE a weaker area than OL.

I love Ward. He is an exceptional talent, but I am very concerned about his durability. I'm leavin' this stuff up to JD & staff.

Mike

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

On 9/20/2019 at 9:59 PM, Dutch Oven said:

I hope I'm wrong, but it sure feels like the NFL is slowly but surely turning into the NBA. 

Star players get leverage now. If they want out, they get it. 

I don’t blame a young player for not wanting to waste their time on a subpar team or situation.

[medicineman]

5 hours ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said:

Star players get leverage now. If they want out, they get it. 

I don’t blame a young player for not wanting to waste their time on a subpar team or situation.

If it were me I would want to be drafted by a bad team, I would want to be named as a reason for the big turn around, Kind of like what they say about Baker and Myles. Why go to a team like the Pats where they don't need you and are going to win regardless? The Pats could make Kenny Britt look like a great No 1 WR. and he sucks more cock than a 5 dollar crack whore in Pittsburgh 

[flyingfooldoug]

1 minute ago, medicineman said:

If it were me I would want to be drafted by a bad team, I would want to be named as a reason for the big turn around, Kind of like what they say about Baker and Myles. Why go to a team like the Pats where they don't need you and are going to win regardless? The Pats could make Kenny Britt look like a great No 1 WR. and he sucks more cock than a 5 dollar crack whore in Pittsburgh 

If it keeps going down the NBA road with players deciding their teams, the nfl could belly up. 

And those $5 crack hoes in dicksburg are the best thing they have going there

[flyingfooldoug]

21 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

The "point" was around the selection of the new HC... not the demise of the old.

Baker had input but was not involved in selecting Freddie. That was a pure JD call. And the fact that they played well together last season sure had a lot to do with it. But Baker himself had little to do with it.  You must be thinking Lebron..... but he’s not here

[Tour2ma]

8 hours ago, Ibleedbrown said:

I’d heard that about his OL track record so l did a little research a few weeks back and focused on Dorsey OL draft picks. His track record is better than l thought it would be.

Nice work... I'd missed that.

I'd say his OL draft record at KC was sub-par... and that's only good in golf.

Fischer was, and is, overrated. He's PFF's 17th rated OT with a grade of 67.4 and his highest season grade was 77.7.

Morse was his best Day 2 "find"... but then I found him, too, and had him pegged as a 3rd IIRC.

UFA's? Well... he signed Schwartz 👍... but he also signed Irving 👎👎👎

Others' grades in your list:

• Fulton - 59.1
• Duverney-Tardiff  - 53.1
• Kush - 71.6

[Flugel]

57 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Nice work... I'd missed that.

I'd say his OL draft record at KC was sub-par... and that's only good in golf.

Fischer was, and is, overrated. He's PFF's 17th rated OT with a grade of 67.4 and his highest season grade was 77.7.

Morse was his best Day 2 "find"... but then I found him, too, and had him pegged as a 3rd IIRC.

UFA's? Well... he signed Schwartz 👍... but he also signed Irving 👎👎👎

Others' grades in your list:

• Fulton - 59.1
• Duverney-Tardiff  - 53.1
• Kush - 71.6

So, we shouldn't consider what KC's offense accomplished in 2018 because PFF says it isn't so upfront?  They were ranked #1 in total offense, scoring, and #3 in passing with a first time starter at QB.  The only reason their running game was #16 was because their passing game was an on-going gimme.

Has Irving been better or worse in KC than in Cleveland with the talent Dorsey surrounded him with there?  He's got a QB that gets rid of the ball quick.  He's also blocked for AFC Offensive Rookie of the Year Kareem Hunt. 

It also looks like Center Austin Reiter is good enough to start for KC in 2019 while he wasn't able to start for a much lesser offense in Cleveland. Again, is there something to be said for having a better QB behind you and better talent around you?   Whoever brought Reiter to KC gave them an investment that now starts on one of the most potent offenses in football. 

And didn't Schwartz start making Pro Bowls in KC?

If PFF is the tell-all - why did Andy Reid get rid of the guy (Kush) with the highest score above?   Did he wake up stupid?   And has anyone told Bill Belicheck how much time he and his staff wastes watching film when PFF has all the answers? 

[bjh2130]

Time for my speculation. I hope im wrong because I really like Denzel Ward (hence my picture). Side not I really like his nickname The WARDen.

I saw someone mention ward and a first rounder for Ramsey earlier in thread.  I think it might be in the works.  Denzel Ward didn't show up on the injury list until after it was rumored that we were inquiring about Ramsey. Ward has already been ruled out this morning for the game tonight and I believe they may be holding him out with "injury" so he doesn't actually get injured in tonight's game so they can make the trade on Monday. As far as salary both Ramsey and Ward are on their rookie deals and were first round picks (Ramsey 5th overall ward 4th overall). This year Ramsey is scheduled to make a little over 3 million and ward just under 2 million.  Next year is a big difference as picking up the team option on Ramsey gives him 13 mil and ward entering 3rd year is scheduled to make 3.5 million.  However there browns can get creative in the off season to make up the 10 million difference whether Mack Wilson balls out and they do something with kirksey or cutting Vernon gives them 15 million right there and a myriad of other moves that I'm not even thinking about (the first rounder the browns would give up with ward makes up some of the difference right off the bat). The biggest reason I believe this is I bought a Denzel Ward jersey last year after him "make them know your name" article in the players Tribune, and every player's jersey I have bought since 99 hasn't been on the team for more than two years after I bought it. I say that in jest kind of (I know the same can be said for a lot of us fans).

I wouldn't be mad at Dorsey for doing it. I know ward played at all-pro level last year but Ramsey has done it for 3 years. Also Ward is one concussion away from his career potentially ending while Ramsey has been very healthy through his career. So while I don't want it to happen I completely understand why Dorsey would consider doing it.  Both show a lot of promise with one proving it for longer and injury bug is an issue with one and not the other.  What I want to happen is Ward to stay healthy and play at the level he played at last year for his whole career here in Cleveland.

 

 

Or you know I could just be reading way too far into this injury thing and he is dinged up and they want to make sure he is good to go to match up against Hollywood Brown and divisional foe Ravens next weekend. He did have arguably is best game against the ravens last year, targeted 17 times 5 catches allowed no TDs and 1 int.

[Tour2ma]

It's data, Flugs... systematic, subjective data.

When I did OL grading I found that a high percentage of the time I was in agreement with PFF. But I always recognized that PFF OL-Unit rankings (the sum of their individual grades) was flawed. The sum of the parts could either over or under represent the performance of the unit as a whole.

While I don't grade our OL any longer (it got too painful), I do evaluate Draft classes tarting in January... and I think I do a pretty decent job of it. So that was the real basis of Dorsey's OL eval prowess. PFF's grades are simply a convenient source of support for my take.

I've no doubt that Mahommes and Hunt would make any OL look better than it is (just as Baker did ours last season), but that doesn't make that OL "better" individual performers. It means the Offense succeed despite the OL's level of play. Think of what those players could do behind a great OL, e.g., Dallas' OL. It staggers the mind... but I don't think Dak and Zeke want to make that trade.

And signing Schwartz was a no-brainer. He made one All-Pro list his final year in CLE... and it was PFF's.

 

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

8 hours ago, medicineman said:

If it were me I would want to be drafted by a bad team, I would want to be named as a reason for the big turn around, Kind of like what they say about Baker and Myles. Why go to a team like the Pats where they don't need you and are going to win regardless? 

I get that logic.. however, imagine if we had a Minkah when Deshone Kizer was the starting QB... would you expect different? To ask a guy to stay for the Hue era?

I don’t blame em

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

It's data, Flugs... systematic, subjective data.

When I did OL grading I found that a high percentage of the time I was in agreement with PFF. But I always recognized that PFF OL-Unit rankings (the sum of their individual grades) was flawed. The sum of the parts could either over or under represent the performance of the unit as a whole.

While I don't grade our OL any longer (it got too painful), I do evaluate Draft classes tarting in January... and I think I do a pretty decent job of it. So that was the real basis of Dorsey's OL eval prowess. PFF's grades are simply a convenient source of support for my take.

I've no doubt that Mahommes and Hunt would make any OL look better than it is (just as Baker did ours last season), but that doesn't make that OL "better" individual performers. It means the Offense succeed despite the OL's level of play. Think of what those players could do behind a great OL, e.g., Dallas' OL. It staggers the mind... but I don't think Dak and Zeke want to make that trade.

And signing Schwartz was a no-brainer. He made one All-Pro list his final year in CLE... and it was PFF's.

 

It IS data Tour.  When I lived in Nashville, former Pro Bowl DB Blaine Bishop read the summary of a killer good passing performance Aaron Rodgers had.  Then he read the piss poor score PFF gave Rodgers for the performance when he cautioned the caller about using them over the eye ball test and stat sheets as the tell all.  Frank Wychek also chimed in that they weren't very good at understanding reach and hinge pass protections when he pointed out they were crediting the wrong OL for the sack surrendered.  He wasn't sold on PFF either until the people grading OL had the background and understanding of what scheme they were grading.  

And when you were giving some mediocre at best PFF scores for KC linemen you specified - I felt compelled to remind you their offense scored the most points out of 32 teams, and had the #1 offense and where they ranked at throwing the ball. Truth of the matter is those individual PFF scores reported weren't even close to reflecting what that oline in KC accomplished as a group within Andy Reid's schemes. 

1 of the biggest things I admire about you aside from your knowledge of the game/league - is the time you commit to breaking down film and sharing the results of that passion with us.  I'm sure the data does agree with your eye ball test a lot of the time.  But I hope you got what I was getting at here. 

Line is a schematic and chemistry thing.   One of the debates and concerns people had pre-season was how do we replace Zeitler and his elite PFF scores.  Well, we went 0-16 in 2017 in spite of how good he can be while NY is off to an 0-2 start with him right now (w/one of the most talented RBs in the league).  Not for nothing, Cincy's offense sucked the last year he was there (not saying it's his fault per say) - but lines need to be graded as a group.  We kept 4 starters from our 2018 line so I felt like if we could improve despite losing Joe Thomas to retirement last year - we should be able to do the same without Zeitler if we go with an experienced replacement. In 2 years, this team is trying to overcome the losses of Joe Thomas and Kevin Zeitler (2 of Wisconsin's finest); but having a continuity of 4 guys should be able to have the group grade out well overall.  Here we were coming off 0-16 football sentencing ourselves to the worst of 2 evils at LT.  And when we discovered we got that wrong at first, we ended up with Robinson and the line steadily improved as a group as did our rookie QB while Chubb had a great rookie year as well.

I really wanted us to keep what looked like a good combination of TEs last year.   I don't care what Fells is doing in another offense this year. He was reliable help for our Tackles, rookie RB that averaged 5.2 ypc and pretty good when thrown to.  This year we've almost completely eclipsed the TE value right out of our offense (albeit Njoku's injury wasn't something we can control).  I don't have any confidence in the TEs were left counting on.  This won't help Baker IMO.  I hope I'm wrong.

 

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

An overpowered line is overrated($)

Having a QB who can get the ball out quick? Priceless.

[Tour2ma]

32 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Truth of the matter is those individual PFF scores reported weren't even close to reflecting what that oline in KC accomplished as a group within Andy Reid's schemes.  

1 of the biggest things I admire about you aside from your knowledge of the game/league - is the time you commit to breaking down film and sharing the results of that passion with us.  I'm sure the data does agree with your eye ball test a lot of the time.  But I hope you got what I was getting at here. 

Line is a schematic and chemistry thing.  

Scheme can mask "ills" and chemistry is a cherry on top, but talent, and it's identification, is the foundation. Chemistry has not prevented Irving (filling in for Fischer at LT) from yielding a pressure and a sack in the first 5 minutes of the KC-BLT game. And OL chemistry did not prevent Mahommes from being decleated on a delayed blitz up the middle in that same time span.

What KC accomplished as a team has been IMO in spite of their OL... not because of it. It's Mahommes and his ability to deliver quick strikes or extend plays with his mobility that has fueled the Chiefs.

Appreciate the words and I hope you know I do not hold out PFF's grades to be the end-all be-all system.... but it's a damn good one.