***Browns VS Seahawks Gameday Thread***

[Dutch Oven]

[SdBacker80]

18 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Dion Lewis, Alvin Kamara, James White, David Johnson,  Philip Lindsay, Gio Bernard, Christian McCaffery, Duke Johnson and a whole lot of other good pass catching RB's are waving at you right now.        You know very little about this game, I take?

I played WR and coached ball thanks.

again why is your Backup RB flanked out getting first look when you have the studs that we have and the ball was Through two hands. Catch the ball.  Or as a play caller don’t put a RB in that spot flank out another guy.  

I hate the empty look- I’ve said it here a lot.

how successful has it been?

[tiamat63]

1 minute ago, SdBacker80 said:

I played WR and coached ball thanks.

again why is your Backup RB flanked out getting first look when you have the studs that we have and the ball was Through two hands. Catch the ball.  Or as a play caller don’t put a RB in that spot flank out another guy.  

I hate the empty look- I’ve said it here a lot.

how successful has it been?

No you didn't, otherwise you would have been able to answer your own question.  And coaching at a midget league level doesn't count.

 

Agreed on the empty sets though.

 

[D Bone]

1 hour ago, Duckpins said:

Interesting that SF looks average against the Rams.  

Not sure what game you're watching! 

[tiamat63]

 

 

I guess I'll explain this one....

 Apologies for the black screen, it's coming off of a tablet.  Also apologies for the crude red lines, I don't know how to use the editor on this thing (I was never into Phones, tablets, etc etc)

The look you're seeing is Cover 3.   It is the staple of the Seattle defense since Pete Carroll has arrived and will continue to be until he has retired.

The red lines generally indicate how you zone flow in a cover 3 vs a 2x3 set.   There are variances between all coaches though on how they want the #2 and #3 read and 'walled' by the linebackers/DB's etc etc.        You know this is cover 3 because the MOTF closed safety isn't leaving the hash and the corners are in bail technique (hips inside, eyes back)     

There are 2 reads on this play that would have worked.  The first is where Baker didn't go because his throwing over the middle has been questionable this year - and that would be to the #3 of the formation strength.  I believe that is Brown and Landry.  They square their routes fast inside after reading defender leverage and Brown runs a little "settle' in front of the linebacker. That would have been where I would go with the ball given the depth of the MOTF safety and the depth of the lurk safety.       That said, Baker went elsewhere and it wasn't the problem.

He see's Wright being flat footed, checking the #2 moving upfield and knows that the LB won't recover to beat the throw.  There are few in the game with that ability.   Now it is possible that Baker expected Hilliard to curl inside and not square his route off on the slant as much.   Even then, this ball is still behind and it's still HOT.    Don't listen to what the broadcasters were saying.  This isn't a back shoulder throw and it was never supposed to be.

 

Taking a 2nd look at it, honestly, looks like a miscommunication combined with a throw that was coming in with some smoke.   Either way, it's a good call and works vs that coverage, it was, as I said before - executed poorly.

[SdBacker80]

 

Thanks for X and Os let me dumb it down to my midget ball level.

It was executed poorly because you are asking a RB to run a route and make a catch in a big spot.  If I want a big grab and play I’m counting on Hilliard?   And if god forbid the QB throws something hot and a little behind a WR can make the grab.  

It’s clutch time final drive and you empty things out.  When has that worked and  If you agree with not getting into this empty set why are we flanked to the left by Hillard and making per snap reads in his favor. He’s a decent pass protector use him in that spot.

i highlight and stress this play because I’m not enamored by the scheme and play calls that we are seeing this season. 

[gumby73]

21 minutes ago, D Bone said:

Not sure what game you're watching! 

I'll get Madden, if you get us Shanny on his bye week

[Gorka]

Seems nothing has changed.

This same shit is being played over and over, year after year, and the only thing that has changed are the faces.

Over the last 20 years of suckdom there were dozens of games, some JUST LIKE THIS FUCKING ONE TODAY that we should have won. Some we should have won if it weren't for penalties and lack of discipline, some we should have won if it weren't for bad play calling, fumbling, miscues, and interceptions...and how sad is it that each one of those detractors to winning has been on display yet again through the first 6 games.

Yeah "wait till next year". The optimist in me would look at games we shoulda, coulda, woulda won that year and use that as a reason to be highly optimistic about the following year....only to be duped into to the same shit.

So here we are, after all the preseason hype, all the high expectations, all the Baker hype, we're right on schedule talking about firing the head coach after only six games into the season.

Only in this damn* town.

 

* Cleveland is not "damn" town. Love my town. Just an expression over being frustrated.

[tiamat63]

2 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

 

Thanks for X and Os

It was executed poorly because you are asking a RB to run a route and make a catch in a big spot.

 If I want a big grab and play I’m counting on Hilliard?  

And if god forbid the QB throws something hot and a little behind a WR can make the grab.  

It’s clutch time final drive and you empty things out.  When has that worked

Why are we flanked to the left by Hillard and making per snap reads in his favor. 

i highlight and stress this play because I’m not enamored by the scheme and play calls that we are seeing this season. 

- Thought you were a coach?

- You're asking a pass catcher to catch a pass.  This is asked by plenty of RB's throughout the NFL.  This isn't the 70's.  These guys are elite athletes able to reel in passes rather regularly.

- This wasn't meant to be a "big grab".  It was meant to be cheap yards in front of the sticks with the potential for YAC and/or getting out of bounds.

- Zero guarantee a WR makes that grab either.  Would you somehow magically feel better if Jarvis tipped that ball into the air?  Not likely.  Because then you would bitch about a WR having stone hands.

- Empty sets have worked to some degree in this offense.  But we tend to overuse them in the redzone as recently history has shown.

- I guess my explanation is too difficult to digest?

- I'm not either, but this isn't the call to hang your hat on.

 

 

 

 

[hoorta]

56 minutes ago, D Bone said:

While I'm just as upset as anyone regarding our win/loss record, I'm probably leading the group in my overall frustration and shear disappointment of Freddie's coaching - and moreover his play calling.

Freddie looks overwhelmed on the sideline and his play calling reflects that....... He actually told the media dudes in the mandatory Saturday meeting that "the Browns are not a pass first team"? 

Well coach, I don't know what to tell you if you can't even recognize your own team. You wouldn't know what 3 straight run plays looked like even if Chubb kicked you in the nuts after an 11yd run. 

Right now, it's just more of the same...... Different coach. Different players. Same old record. 

Throwing in the towel already. I hear Hue Jackson would like another shot at coaching all this talent....   Jackson was overwhelmed by comparison, Pat Sure-loss looked like he was  coaching from another planet on the sidelines. Freddie? I'm reserving judgement for a few more games. The problem is- as I said earlier in another thread- some guys think we should be at worst 5-1 and smoking playoff teams with our overwhelming talent. 

You old enough to remember this one from the old stadium? Jump Art- and land on Bill.  Six games in as a HC, and some of you are ready to run Freddie out of town on a rail......  

[Orion]

Mistakes were made.  Baker is pressing sometimes, trying to create a win....instead of letting the game come to him.

He threw some passes that weren't placed exactly as they should be for maximum results.  But if you're OBJ, Landry, or Hilliard....you've gotta make the catches.  They're not excused because the pass wasn't perfect.  

It's time to take the bye.....get healed up......come out here, get beat by the Patriots.....and THEN get about the business of winning games.

[browns52]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

Go ahead and vent, have a drink or five and chill out. We had the 4th and 5th string DBs out there today, or you forget that little detail?  The D  stopped them deep when we didn't score that TD FYI. 

who fucking cares.....bottom line is you have to have depth........tackling is tackling...these dudes are on the same practice field as the injured players...they have the same opportunities to shine....they.....are.....fucking.....soft creampuffs......

[browns52]

Just now, browns52 said:

who fucking cares.....bottom line is you have to have depth........tackling is tackling...these dudes are on the same practice field as the injured players...they have the same opportunities to shine....they.....are.....fucking.....soft creampuffs......

let me add something else...even the starters are not that physical.....you are not looking at their technique....every fucking game, whether its the starters or these subs...they basically throw themselves at the rb's or wr's with a shoulder instead of hitting them....and you don't think that is an issue.....maybe it is the coaching that is making them look like cream puffs.....or maybe it is a combo of poor pathetic coaching and dbs that should not be in the nfl.....dude...there is an issue with both the starters and the subs....

[Icecube]

2 hours ago, BaconHound said:

Nope Baker is awesome, can't be on him.  Do you know he set the rookie single season passing TD record last year.

Oh, the good ole days....

[bjh2130]

41 minutes ago, Orion said:

Mistakes were made.  Baker is pressing sometimes, trying to create a win....instead of letting the game come to him.

He threw some passes that weren't placed exactly as they should be for maximum results.  But if you're OBJ, Landry, or Hilliard....you've gotta make the catches.  They're not excused because the pass wasn't perfect.  

It's time to take the bye.....get healed up......come out here, get beat by the Patriots.....and THEN get about the business of winning games.

What pass did Landry drop? I think people are already having an apologist revisionist history (for baker). His int in the endzone under 2 minutes was no where near Landrys fault. It was very high and very behind him.  Landry did all he could just to get one hand on it to keep Griffin from picking it off unfortunately another player was there to catch the deflection. As bad as the decision to even throw to him (even if placed properly it has do chance of being complete) my big concern is why is Baker snapping that ball with 25 seconds on the playclock during a running clock?

[hoorta]

38 minutes ago, Orion said:

Mistakes were made.  Baker is pressing sometimes, trying to create a win....instead of letting the game come to him.

He threw some passes that weren't placed exactly as they should be for maximum results.  But if you're OBJ, Landry, or Hilliard....you've gotta make the catches.  They're not excused because the pass wasn't perfect.  

It's time to take the bye.....get healed up......come out here, get beat by the Patriots.....and THEN get about the business of winning games.

Orion- I just went back and took a look at the final interception that ended the game, multiple times in slo-mo. MHO? Plenty of blame to go around. So:

1) Was the pass slightly behind? Absolutely. but

2) The receiver is looking at the ball the whole way- like at least 5 yards before the ball got there- did he adjust the route to slow down a tad (he wasn't being closely covered) nope

3) The ball was maybe a foot behind- does a guy who's getting paid money to play football make that catch? At least 9 out of 10 times yes

4) Did Baker determine where he was going with the ball on a pre snap read?  probably, yes- BUT

5) This will drive Jiggins nuts- did Baker survey the field before the throw?  (he had a clean pocket)  NO!!! 

6) There was plenty of time and timeouts- this wasn't desperation mode- Baker had someone wide open in the middle of the field with the Seattle LBs 5 yards off of him for an easy completion.  

Is Baker as good as we thought he might be? Maybe, maybe not. If teams are going to scheme to take away his pre snap read, and he can't go through his progressions, he's in big trouble.  His receivers haven't been doing him any favors in the last two games either, dropping catchable balls that turn into interceptions- whoops!!!!   I'll wait for our geeks to get the number off of PFR to say what our catch to drop ratio is relative to the rest of the league- on stuff that's "catchable".  

 

 

[hoorta]

23 minutes ago, bjh2130 said:

What pass did Landry drop? I think people are already having an apologist revisionist history (for baker). His int in the endzone under 2 minutes was no where near Landrys fault. It was very high and very behind him.  Landry did all he could just to get one hand on it to keep Griffin from picking it off unfortunately another player was there to catch the deflection. As bad as the decision to even throw to him (even if placed properly it has do chance of being complete) my big concern is why is Baker snapping that ball with 25 seconds on the playclock during a running clock?

That should be on Freddie- eat clock Baker, no need to try and force a ball into a tight window and expect Landry to pull one out of his ass...  Throw it in the seats if he's not wide open. 

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

- Thought you were a coach?

- You're asking a pass catcher to catch a pass.  This is asked by plenty of RB's throughout the NFL.  This isn't the 70's.  These guys are elite athletes able to reel in passes rather regularly.

- This wasn't meant to be a "big grab".  It was meant to be cheap yards in front of the sticks with the potential for YAC and/or getting out of bounds.

- Zero guarantee a WR makes that grab either.  Would you somehow magically feel better if Jarvis tipped that ball into the air?  Not likely.  Because then you would bitch about a WR having stone hands.

- Empty sets have worked to some degree in this offense.  But we tend to overuse them in the redzone as recently history has shown.

- I guess my explanation is too difficult to digest?

- I'm not either, but this isn't the call to hang your hat on.

 

 

 

 

I get it I just didn’t realize Hilliard was Kamara.

You agreed with the ineffective empty sets we run.  I guess we agree there. Probably little else but who knows we have weeks to go.

Part of coaching whether it’s tee ball, wrestling or midget football is putting guys in situations so the team can succeed.  Before we take a snap - I don’t consider Hillard flanked out and used as a WR on a potential game winning drive the winning formula. The 0-16 Browns with Coleman and Britt sure why not we had nothing there 

[Orion]

33 minutes ago, bjh2130 said:

What pass did Landry drop?

I don't recall Landry dropping any passes.

So let me change the statement:  But if you're Paul Warfied, OBJ, or Hilliard....you've gotta make the catches.   The ball is not gonna be in your bread basket every time.

[hoorta]

Just now, Orion said:

I don't recall Landry dropping any passes.

So let me change the statement:  But if you're Paul Warfied, OBJ, or Hilliard....you've gotta make the catches.   The ball is not gonna be in your bread basket every time.

I'll give Landry a pass on the INT Orion. True, he has the best hands on the team behind OBJ, and FWIW, OBJ missed a few today. That one is surely on Baker- and as I mentioned on Kitchens for not burning clock and trying Chubb on at least one running play. In the words of Sam Rutigliano- if he's not wide open, throw it in the seats. Baker trusted he could squeeze the ball into a minuscule window- and maybe that will be a learning experience for him. 

[Dutch Oven]

15 minutes ago, Orion said:

So let me change the statement:  But if you're Paul Warfied, OBJ, or Hilliard....you've gotta make the catches.   The ball is not gonna be in your bread basket every time.

Or if you are a Browns offensive player in 2019 trying to catch passes from Baker, rarely ever. 

[hoorta]

Just now, Dutch Oven said:

Or if you are a Browns offensive player in 2019 trying to catch passes from Baker, rarely ever. 

How soon you forget Deshone Kizer.   We have the Baker Basher Club forming, no doubt.   

 

[Dutch Oven]

Just now, hoorta said:

How soon you forget Deshone Kizer. 

 

Honestly, he's looking eerily similar.

That fade he attempted to OBJ was so laughably bad that on The Tavern I described it as "Kizer Fade from Baker". 

[hoorta]

Just now, Dutch Oven said:

Honestly, he's looking eerily similar.

That fade he attempted to OBJ was so laughably bad that on The Tavern I described it as "Kizer Fade from Baker". 

For God's sake, not even close. How many times did we see where Deshone couldn't even get the ball in the same area code as the receiver? Sorry, you can believe whatever you want to- but MHO that's so off base it's ridiculous. 

[Dutch Oven]

And the Steelers have jumped out to a 14-0 lead over the Chargers, and there are so many Steelers fans at the game in LOS ANGELES that they are chanting "DEFENSE DEFENSE DEFENSE" like its a Steelers home game. 

And my HS game lost to some mediocre team Friday night, pretty much making the playoffs a miracle. 

Fuck football this weekend. 🤣

[hoorta]

Crap, I gotta watch that game, time out. come on Chargers beat the squealers....  

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, hoorta said:

For God's sake, not even close. How many times did we see where Deshone couldn't even get the ball in the same area code as the receiver? Sorry, you can believe whatever you want to- but MHO that's so off base it's ridiculous. 

Baker is completing passes at a 55% rate or something, and almost has twice as many interceptions as touchdowns.

No way in hell I think their careers end up the same, but FOR THIS SEASON, Baker has been mediocre to bad. 

[hoorta]

Just now, Dutch Oven said:

Baker is completing passes at a 55% rate or something, and almost has twice as many interceptions as touchdowns.

No way in hell I think their careers end up the same, but FOR THIS SEASON, Baker has been mediocre to bad. 

That I agree on....  

[luke8878]

Well Hodges, a undrafted rookie is more accurate than Mayfield.

[D Bone]

2 hours ago, hoorta said:

Throwing in the towel already. I hear Hue Jackson would like another shot at coaching all this talent....   Jackson was overwhelmed by comparison, Pat Sure-loss looked like he was  coaching from another planet on the sidelines. Freddie? I'm reserving judgement for a few more games. The problem is- as I said earlier in another thread- some guys think we should be at worst 5-1 and smoking playoff teams with our overwhelming talent. 

You old enough to remember this one from the old stadium? Jump Art- and land on Bill.  Six games in as a HC, and some of you are ready to run Freddie out of town on a rail......  

Not throwing in the towel,  just disappointed in our 1st year HC who chose to call his own offense on top of being the HC.....  Hopefully he's the next Genius, but right now he's having a hard time managing the game,  and that will get good teams beat, much less a team that doesn't even know if they're good or bad yet.