***Browns VS Seahawks Gameday Thread***

[mjp28]

Kitchens might have fallen victim of the "Peter Principle".......

........The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach a level of respective incompetence.......

   It happens more often than you think it would.    I had to read the book in college.

[Dutch Oven]

6 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

Kitchens might have fallen victim of the "Peter Principle".......

........The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach a level of respective incompetence.......

   It happens more often than you think it would.    I had to read the book in college.

That's what Terry Bradshaw said yesterday on the pregame show... 😊

[mjp28]

18 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

That's what Terry Bradshaw said yesterday on the pregame show... 😊

I saw that and it reminded me then of the BROWNS current situation.  Think back about all of the good OC and DC guys who failed miserably as a HC.....or GM.

[hoorta]

15 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Hilliard isn't Kamara, and that isn't what I'm saying.

I agreed that our empty can* be ineffective at times. Mostly in the Red zone. We've also used them well at times including a couple quick hitters to *gasp* Hilliard.

I'd take Hilliard over no route Coleman and semi retired Britt.

Of course he isn't. MHO tia is Hilliard was a klutz on that play. He was staring at the ball almost the entire way, wasn't being closely covered- and made no effort to adjust his speed when he saw the ball was going to be slightly behind him.  As I mentioned elsewhere, Baker isn't innocent either. There was plenty of time left- and the Seahawks gave him the middle of the field where we had one of our guys essentially uncovered for an easy 5-10 yard completion. 

Correct me if I'm wrong- but I looked at that play at least a half dozen times...  

[hoorta]

9 hours ago, browns52 said:

the mgmt fucked up the chemistry this season....ol was much better last yr and then we get rid of a guard....that is part of the problem...baker is bad this yr....last i know he had the worse qb rating...so we go and take kitchens and make him a hc...last yr he was the oc and i believe that is why baker was better...so we have a rookie hc with all this talent....problem is kitchy now has too much responsibility and cannot concentrate on baker...i wish we had rex ryan as hc....kitchy as oc....and williams as dc....wow...now i know folks will say ryan never did anything as hc...well guess what, he almost got the jets to the super bowl with one of the crapiest qb's in the history of the nfl....he never had the talent that this team has....what a shame...

You've just lost all credibility with that gem guy. Rex is still unemployed for a reason. He had one great season- and other than that- totally average to below average. 

[jiggins7919]

You're not wrong. The entire play was completely effed. It had no rhythm. Baker guided the ball, Hilliard didn't focus, and of course we find ourselves going to the likes of Hilliard when we need a play instead of our big names. 

It was also bad luck, which was the trend. God forbid that ball just fall harmlessly to the ground. Nooooo, it has to pop up right to a defender, like almost every drop. This team resembles the Kizer team on offense in so many ways. That shit happened to him about a hundred times. 

One play the replay didn't show me was the Metcalf 3rd down reception to end the game. The ball came out right? Did he catch it? 

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

You're not wrong. The entire play was completely effed. It had no rhythm. Baker guided the ball, Hilliard didn't focus, and of course we find ourselves going to the likes of Hilliard when we need a play instead of our big names. 

It was also bad luck, which was the trend. God forbid that ball just fall harmlessly to the ground. Nooooo, it has to pop up right to a defender, like almost every drop. This team resembles the Kizer team on offense in so many ways. That shit happened to him about a hundred times. 

One play the replay didn't show me was the Metcalf 3rd down reception to end the game. The ball came out right? Did he catch it? 

LOL, maybe  our receivers  should  learn  from the  famous  words of  Tom Jackson. If you  can't  control the  ball- KNOCK IT  DOWN!!!

[SdBacker80]

On 10/13/2019 at 2:55 PM, tiamat63 said:

Dion Lewis, Alvin Kamara, James White, David Johnson,  Philip Lindsay, Gio Bernard, Christian McCaffery, Duke Johnson and a whole lot of other good pass catching RB's are waving at you right now.        You know very little about this game, I take?

There was a reference to kamara and other pass catching RBs here 

[SdBacker80]

8 hours ago, hoorta said:

Of course he isn't. MHO tia is Hilliard was a klutz on that play. He was staring at the ball almost the entire way, wasn't being closely covered- and made no effort to adjust his speed when he saw the ball was going to be slightly behind him.  As I mentioned elsewhere, Baker isn't innocent either. There was plenty of time left- and the Seahawks gave him the middle of the field where we had one of our guys essentially uncovered for an easy 5-10 yard completion. 

Correct me if I'm wrong- but I looked at that play at least a half dozen times...  

Agreed.  And I said as much Sunday but didn’t detail the events like you just did.  When your backup RB is a go to (Baker wasn’t looking anywhere else) and he’s flanked out once again in an empty set that works 8.9% it’s bad design bad call.  Of course bad execution too asking someone not accustomed to pass catching to run a route and catch the ball. 

[tiamat63]

6 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

There was a reference to kamara and other pass catching RBs here 

Yes, a reference. I'm not saying Hilliard IS any of those RB's.  My point being that those are pass catching backs with high target volumes and throwing to them is common in the modern NFL.

[SdBacker80]

14 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Yes, a reference. I'm not saying Hilliard IS any of those RB's.  My point being that those are pass catching backs with high target volumes and throwing to them is common in the modern NFL.

And it should be an uncommon occurrence with Hilliard that was my point two days ago 

[tiamat63]

9 hours ago, hoorta said:

Of course he isn't. MHO tia is Hilliard was a klutz on that play. He was staring at the ball almost the entire way, wasn't being closely covered- and made no effort to adjust his speed when he saw the ball was going to be slightly behind him.  As I mentioned elsewhere, Baker isn't innocent either. There was plenty of time left- and the Seahawks gave him the middle of the field where we had one of our guys essentially uncovered for an easy 5-10 yard completion. 

Correct me if I'm wrong- but I looked at that play at least a half dozen times...  

I think "klutz" is not the best description.   

It's a sight adjustment between two players.  Hilliard probably felt he was going to continue to beat Wright carrying across his face and squared the slant off for that reason.  Baker read Wright's initial leverage as inside and didn't expect him to haul ass to the boundary - thus expecting Hilliard to curl it more towards his outside shoulder.

 

There is a comment I found curious from Freddie about "graduate level" work on Baker.   Looking at the screenshot I posted, run a line through the center.  Now do your defender split count.  Baker did his, and that is, as Freddie said - the Junior level work.   Which is what lead Baker to trail to Hilliard.    The graduate level work is, despite seeing 4 defenders and the lurk safety on the same hash, is understanding their depth and alginment vs your call, your best receivers and the clock.    Double check those safeties.

You're expecting throws to the perimeter as a defense, you all but give them the inside and make them work the clock. The Brownies are willing to take the inside given the time left, 2 TO's and (more than likely) the next play call either in or already on deck.     So for Baker to rule out the pitch and catch on the #3 so quickly, despite having the favorable routes vs depth is the higher level processing he needs to work on. 

Young QB doing young QB things IMHO.

[tiamat63]

15 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

And it should be an uncommon occurrence with Hilliard that was my point two days ago 

And I'll remember that when he picks up more 1st downs out of that empty 3×2 set ala a couple of those looks vs the Ravens.

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

12 hours ago, gumby73 said:

 but before GW got here, we were the worse team to watch to even try to tackle anybody..My point being, 1.) along with our tackling now taking another hit? 2.) Where the heck is big dollar FA's Richardson & Vernon on this vaunted starting front 4?

To be fair to the refs? a 15 yard piling on penalty was accepted 

Vernon was the highest graded Browns player against Seattle with a 90 grade. He’s just creating pressure a LOT. Helping Garrett get some sacks.

Richardson did make a nice effort play chasing down Wilson to prevent a score. But Devaroe Lawrence seems more explosive.

[SdBacker80]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I think "klutz" is not the best description.   

It's a sight adjustment between two players.  Hilliard probably felt he was going to continue to beat Wright carrying across his face and squared the slant off for that reason.  Baker read Wright's initial leverage as inside and didn't expect him to haul ass to the boundary - thus expecting Hilliard to curl it more towards his outside shoulder.

 

There is a comment I found curious from Freddie about "graduate level" work on Baker.   Looking at the screenshot I posted, run a line through the center.  Now do your defender split count.  Baker did his, and that is, as Freddie said - the Junior level work.   Which is what lead Baker to trail to Hilliard.    The graduate level work is, despite seeing 4 defenders and the lurk safety on the same hash, is understanding their depth and alginment vs your call, your best receivers and the clock.    Double check those safeties.

You're expecting throws to the perimeter as a defense, you all but give them the inside and make them work the clock. The Brownies are willing to take the inside given the time left, 2 TO's and (more than likely) the next play call either in or already on deck.     So for Baker to rule out the pitch and catch on the #3 so quickly, despite having the favorable routes vs depth is the higher level processing he needs to work on. 

Young QB doing young QB things IMHO.

This is a great analysis.

but I think you are giving Hilliard too much credit. He ran a weak slant - the kind of route a guy with 13 career receptions may execute.  Watching the replay he wasn’t making or thinking about any adjustment.  He ran a weak route.  It looked like he didn’t expect to be the primary option- at least I hope that was case.  Again I started this rant two days ago I’ve realized now I’m starting to beat a dead horse. But formation calls and schemes like this are part of the issue.  

Right now our best play out of an empty set is a Baker sneak.  We are seeing 7 drop in coverage consistently from it and it’s requiring Baker to process a little more than what he did a year ago.  It’s requiring like you said a higher level of processing- he’s not there yet. 

We are also (but not you in particular) expect way too much on ball placement.  The ball is gonna be put on the back hip sometimes.  We have enough talent in receiving Corp. to make up for occasional less than ideal placed ball.   And There was very little wrong with that pass to Hilliard it’s  not like he was hauling it that fast that reaching back a little would be too difficult 

 

[SdBacker80]

11 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

You're not wrong. The entire play was completely effed. It had no rhythm. Baker guided the ball, Hilliard didn't focus, and of course we find ourselves going to the likes of Hilliard when we need a play instead of our big names. 

It was also bad luck, which was the trend. God forbid that ball just fall harmlessly to the ground. Nooooo, it has to pop up right to a defender, like almost every drop. This team resembles the Kizer team on offense in so many ways. That shit happened to him about a hundred times. 

One play the replay didn't show me was the Metcalf 3rd down reception to end the game. The ball came out right? Did he catch it? 

I thought it was knocked out after he possessed it but truthfully there wasn’t a great replay on it.

i thought Metcalf was the guy everyone was making fun of in preseason with his routes?  Was he the guy?  He looked like an All Pro Sunday 

[jiggins7919]

49 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

I thought it was knocked out after he possessed it but truthfully there wasn’t a great replay on it.

i thought Metcalf was the guy everyone was making fun of in preseason with his routes?  Was he the guy?  He looked like an All Pro Sunday 

Metcalf was the physical freak that many said wasn't polished. He went to the perfect team and he's playing with an absolute stud of a QB. Metcalf has done well and will only get better. If you go back and watch the game, you'll come away stunned at how amazing Wilson played. He didn't make a single mistake, and as we all know, we always make enough for both teams. 

You also can't make up how bad of luck we've gotten. I mean, you have to make your OWN luck, but Jesus...some of our interceptions could easily have dropped to the ground, ya know? But again, Baker forcing that terrible pass to Landry was nobody's fault but Baker's. 

[browns52]

13 hours ago, hoorta said:

You've just lost all credibility with that gem guy. Rex is still unemployed for a reason. He had one great season- and other than that- totally average to below average. 

thats because he did not have a fucking qb....in fact he had no weapons hardly at all....hey, he came within 2 qtrs of going to the superbow...since our come back....show me a coach that has done that....sorry dude.....you are incorrecto....again...

[hoorta]

7 minutes ago, browns52 said:

thats because he did not have a fucking qb....in fact he had no weapons hardly at all....hey, he came within 2 qtrs of going to the superbowl...since our come back....show me a coach that has done that....sorry dude.....you are incorrecto....again...

Um him getting close to the Super Bowl means nothing. That one year was an aberration, if you look at Ryan's coaching career as a whole.  He got fired by the Bills too. So you're willing to give him a chance at strike three with the Browns? Sorry, I'm not. Fortunately for the Browns, it's never going to happen.  Dan Quinn got the Falcons to the Super Bowl, and is probably going to get fired, FWIW. That's the way coaching works in the NFL, win, or you're fired. Rex didn't win much his last couple years.  

[Duckpins]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

Um him getting close to the Super Bowl means nothing. That one year was an aberration, if you look at Ryan's coaching career as a whole.  He got fired by the Bills too. So you're willing to give him a chance at strike three with the Browns? Sorry, I'm not. Fortunately for the Browns, it's never going to happen.  Dan Quinn got the Falcons to the Super Bowl, and is probably going to get fired, FWIW. That's the way coaching works in the NFL, win, or you're fired. Rex didn't win much his last couple years.  

Plenty of great coaches can't get a job.  Take Rick Barry.  He knows BBall inside out and no one ever gave him a job.  Some people just rub other people, especially those with money, the wrong way.  Baker is wasting energy going after some pundit on TV.  Look what Rogers did with an undrafted Lazard after Shepard tried to give the game away.  Both are undrafted free agents.  Spending money on prima dona wide receivers is dumb.  

Also the Browns fantasy about Kitchens being wanted by other teams is just that.  Baker likes him because he talks like a good 'Ol boy from the South.  But everyone down there talks like that.  They say nothing of importance with a slow cadence.  Kitchens is bathroom material.  Face it.  Time to either get rid of the wide receiver devas or trade Baker for Cam Newton.