Baker and OBJ

[SdBacker80]

Can we start a Baker/Harrison Bryant thread too?  He’s missed two cupcakes to Bryant in the past two weeks.   Maybe there are chemistry issues there too? 

Look no further than here…You would have a hard time finding a better situation for a QB right now.  
 

1. Great play caller

2. QB friendly scheme

3. Running game to support the offense

4 Elite Offensive line to protect.

5. Diverse skill sets with pass catchers (possession, top busters, big bodied TEs, the best pass catching screen running back in the NFL).

 

 

[luke8878]

Everyone here has a excellent view/point/opinion/facts that support their beliefs. The thought Baker was better off without OBJ crept into my head past year, but I really didn't over analyze it. But after the first 2 games this year without OBJ and 2 games with him, there is a difference in Baker's play when OBJ is out there. I don't have a clue as to what causes it, I'll admit to that, I just notice a unsure/indecisive Baker. I'm  not saying get rid of Baker, he sucks, just a observation he is a different QB with OBJ.

[nickers]

2 hours ago, luke8878 said:

Everyone here has a excellent view/point/opinion/facts that support their beliefs. The thought Baker was better off without OBJ crept into my head past year, but I really didn't over analyze it. But after the first 2 games this year without OBJ and 2 games with him, there is a difference in Baker's play when OBJ is out there. I don't have a clue as to what causes it, I'll admit to that, I just notice a unsure/indecisive Baker. I'm. It saying get rid of Baker, he sucks, just a observation he is a different QB with OBJ.

It's called OBJ yappin in Bakers ear.. And Baker trying to appease his friend more or less...

[hoorta]

7 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

I think we can all agree with gumby that the One True Problem with this offense has always been Landry.

 

It's almost never true that a person is a problem. It actually shows that the person/account/sockpuppet doing the asserting of a "person" being a problem is themselves not interested in diving deep enough to discover the actual problem for any of a number of reasons.  Are they too lazy? Do they already have the solution in mind and are working backwards to support their conclusion?

In order to determine a solution, first we have to agree on what the problem is that we're trying to solve ---- and in EVERY SINGLE ONE of these stupid OBJ/Baker threads, "the issue" is ever-changing.. much like trying to pin jello to a wall.

*Why are we certain we've reached the root cause? Have you asked the reason "why" to drive to root cause enough?

[EX: Why does Baker lock in? Because of pressure. So.. Why is there pressure? Because of Wills' sprained ankle. So.. Why is Wills still playing when he has a sprained ankle?   See how we got to the "root" cause being Wills in this line of thinking?  That's not the only potential root.]

*What are all the potential root causes that have been identified?

Next, data.

*What's the data to include?  How do we know we're looking at everything? Is there anything more that could be included?

*How many people have you talked to so that you can be sure you're including all the possible ways to look at that data?

*what are ALL the possible ways that data can be analyzed?  This does, in fact, ask the methodology to use.

Note that we still haven't even proposed a solution.  Still analyzing.

Now that we've done ALL of this, ONLY NOW do we even start trying to combine data with those potential root causes... And this is done so that your data addresses and solves the ACTUAL underlying problem.  It should not shock anyone that the tendency of People Who Think They're Smart to jump right to the solution because They Just Know is... More often than not simply wrong.

Thanks, a wonderfully well thought out analysis. Pretty sure Stefanski has a pretty good handle on the root causes of the problem. 

Baker did look more rattled than usual Sunday. Frustration over lousy passing bubbling over, the result being- making bad decisions. Not tossing the ball to a wide open Felton for an easy first down and running instead being the worst example. 

 

[Tour2ma]

There are more positions on the field QB and WR,,,

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2021/10/baker-mayfield-is-getting-worse-under-pressure-and-its-not-a-new-trend.html

Our OL is not living up to its billing and a buzz saw awaits us in LAC...

[jiggins7919]

19 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

There are more positions on the field QB and WR,,,

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2021/10/baker-mayfield-is-getting-worse-under-pressure-and-its-not-a-new-trend.html

Our OL is not living up to its billing and a buzz saw awaits us in LAC...

This is what I was going to write about, good call Tour. If you remember Baker's 2nd year, he wasn't as good. Partially because of the long routes Kitchens favored, but also because he got sacked a million times. I'm wondering if Baker is simply rattled? 

[GuNNerGatSKi]

LoOk gUyS i PlAy mAdDeN. AND I  CAN TELL YOU OBJ IS BALLIN IN MADDEN SO ITS BAKER'S FAULT AND REAL OBJS  FAULT.  THEY SHOULD PERFORM MORE LIKE THEIR STATISTICAL APPROXIMATIONS.

[Tour2ma]

1 minute ago, GuNNerGatSKi said:

LoOk gUyS i PlAy mAdDeN. AND I  CAN TELL YOU OBJ IS BALLIN IN MADDEN SO ITS BAKER'S FAULT AND REAL OBJS  FAULT.  THEY SHOULD PERFORM MORE LIKE THEIR STATISTICAL APPROXIMATIONS.

ANd I won a SB starting JFF   so there!

 

3 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

If you remember Baker's 2nd year, he wasn't as good. Partially because of the long routes

So playcalling, too... If I had to guess, I'd guess OBJ's targets are deeper than those of our other WRs.Add that most of our short-threats are nicked up and that's a bad combo.

[GuNNerGatSKi]

Just now, Tour2ma said:

ANd I won a SB starting JFF   so there!

 

So playcalling, too... If I had to guess, I'd guess OBJ's targets are deeper than those of our other WRs.Add that most of our short-threats are nicked up and that's a bad combo.

Praying the deluge of sarcasm was comprehended, Tour.

[Tour2ma]

9 minutes ago, GuNNerGatSKi said:

Praying the deluge of sarcasm was comprehended, Tour.

Back at ya GG...

 

[tiamat63]

6 hours ago, nickers said:

It's called OBJ yappin in Bakers ear.. And Baker trying to appease his friend more or less...

Oh good, before you became a crippled I wondered if there was an outside shot you had played football at any level.  Now I know you haven't. 

Edit: To flesh out my point.  Offensive players, skill players mostly, always "yap" in each others ears after drives.  Especially drives that stall out.  Who got their assignment? What coverage did they draw? Brackets, pressures, rotations, depths, alignments, man-match, zone pass-offs, what they might do if they get certain looks...  anything you can think of.

You'd know that if you had played a down of real ball.   Save the snide comments. 

 

[gumby73]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

So playcalling, too... If I had to guess, I'd guess OBJ's targets are deeper than those of our other WRs.Add that most of our short-threats are nicked up and that's a bad combo.

and here's what i don't think the OBJ media gets that's a true factor in this...

1) Odel got here in 2019.. Kitchens was the play caller & HC...It's the only year on the books that Odell & Landry both played in 15 games..

2) 2020..Enter Stef.. Landry plays 15 games.. Odell only plays 7 games..  (-- 8 games)

3)2021... Landry with OBJ = Zero Games played

Stef vs Kitchens coaching ? Verse both playing? sorry, but I'm not seeing the debate here with only 7 games played when both are on the field.

Landry's YAC is a missing tangible that we have really missed in 2 games..        

[nickers]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Oh good, before you became a crippled I wondered if there was an outside shot you had played football at any level.  Now I know you haven't. 

Edit: To flesh out my point.  Offensive players, skill players mostly, always "yap" in each others ears after drives.  Especially drives that stall out.  Who got their assignment? What coverage did they draw? Brackets, pressures, rotations, depths, alignments, man-match, zone pass-offs, what they might do if they get certain looks...  anything you can think of.

You'd know that if you had played a down of real ball.   Save the snide comments. 

 

Shut up you over bloated idiot.. You know nothing about me you asshole!.. I played little league ball... Shows how much you know.. which is absolute ZERO!

[Dutch Oven]

27 minutes ago, nickers said:

Shut up you over bloated idiot.. You know nothing about me you asshole!.. I played little league ball... Shows how much you know.. which is absolute ZERO!

Oh man...

He did not actually come back with "I played little league ball", did he? 

Wow. 

[tiamat63]

8 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Oh man...

He did not actually come back with "I played little league ball", did he? 

Wow. 

If that is the comeback, it's actually pretty good in an ironic way 🤣

[jiggins7919]

On 10/5/2021 at 6:56 PM, Tour2ma said:

So playcalling, too... If I had to guess, I'd guess OBJ's targets are deeper than those of our other WRs.Add that most of our short-threats are nicked up and that's a bad combo.

What I can't understand is why a guy who's historically accurate can't hit an open WR. I can live with the sacks, a little, if the REWARD was occasionally there, ya know? That's what I can't wrap my head around. 

For example, on that ridiculous triple-move OBJ route had in the red zone, if you remember, OBJ faked the slant, faked the dig, and then went to the corner. Baker threw the ball 10 feet out of bounds. It had nothing to do with "timing" or getting on the same page. Baker just threw it into the stratosphere. 

That's what I can't explain. To be fair, that's a shitty play call that requires a pinpoint throw to an exact spot. Either your guy gets it or nobody does, but we're a HEAVY analytical team and I KNOW Stefanski realizes that play is uber low percentage. Conversely, coach expects his QB to hit the pass. So what gives? 

After I painfully watched the game again, I paid particular attention to Baker. The single biggest difference I see is Baker's frantic nature. When you watch that end zone overthrow to Hunt, which cost us 7 points, you see how unhinged Baker appears. He threw the ball 100 mph and naturally it went high. 

I'll end with this:  one of Baker's best games came week 7 against Cincy. After a dismal 1st quarter, which basically ended with Baker throwing yet another awful pass to OBJ which lead to the blown knee, Baker was perfect. Not good, not great, PERFECT. This performance also came after the first Pittsburgh game, which was one of his WORST games. My point? Baker generally responds to a poor game and he thrives on people saying he's not good enough. 

Watch for the short passing game to our RBs and TEs to set up our running game, and then watch for the deep shot after we cross midfield. Just have to hit it. 

[nickers]

18 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

If that is the comeback, it's actually pretty good in an ironic way 🤣

Its the truth and I have friends , teamates and family who can corroborate it , dip shit... I played DE for Nebraska of the Willoughby-South Little league in the mid 70's.. So take your BS and jammit up yer chute.. Mr. Know it all...!

[hoorta]

On 10/5/2021 at 6:26 PM, Tour2ma said:

There are more positions on the field QB and WR,,,

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2021/10/baker-mayfield-is-getting-worse-under-pressure-and-its-not-a-new-trend.html

Our OL is not living up to its billing and a buzz saw awaits us in LAC...

You mean Bosa awaits us in LaLa land?  We gonna run, run, and run some more...  

[tiamat63]

7 hours ago, nickers said:

Its the truth and I have friends , teamates and family who can corroborate it , dip shit... I played DE for Nebraska of the Willoughby-South Little league in the mid 70's.. So take your BS and jammit up yer chute.. Mr. Know it all...!

Oh no, I believed you.  That much was never in doubt here.

[nickers]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Oh no, I believed you.  That much was never in doubt here.

Fair enough...

[hoorta]

14 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

What I can't understand is why a guy who's historically accurate can't hit an open WR. I can live with the sacks, a little, if the REWARD was occasionally there, ya know? That's what I can't wrap my head around. 

For example, on that ridiculous triple-move OBJ route had in the red zone, if you remember, OBJ faked the slant, faked the dig, and then went to the corner. Baker threw the ball 10 feet out of bounds. It had nothing to do with "timing" or getting on the same page. Baker just threw it into the stratosphere. 

That's what I can't explain. To be fair, that's a shitty play call that requires a pinpoint throw to an exact spot. Either your guy gets it or nobody does, but we're a HEAVY analytical team and I KNOW Stefanski realizes that play is uber low percentage. Conversely, coach expects his QB to hit the pass. So what gives? 

After I painfully watched the game again, I paid particular attention to Baker. The single biggest difference I see is Baker's frantic nature. When you watch that end zone overthrow to Hunt, which cost us 7 points, you see how unhinged Baker appears. He threw the ball 100 mph and naturally it went high. 

I'll end with this:  one of Baker's best games came week 7 against Cincy. After a dismal 1st quarter, which basically ended with Baker throwing yet another awful pass to OBJ which lead to the blown knee, Baker was perfect. Not good, not great, PERFECT. This performance also came after the first Pittsburgh game, which was one of his WORST games. My point? Baker generally responds to a poor game and he thrives on people saying he's not good enough. 

Watch for the short passing game to our RBs and TEs to set up our running game, and then watch for the deep shot after we cross midfield. Just have to hit it. 

It's now official that Baker has a bum shoulder in his non throwing arm. That's one factor. As the guys in Red Zone pointed out on Monday- he's overcompensating by trying to rifle the ball- and his accuracy is going to hell.  

[tiamat63]

15 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

What I can't understand is why a guy who's historically accurate can't hit an open WR.

I would hardly call Baker "historically" accurate.

If you're basing accuracy off completion percentage, then you're doing it wrong.

[jrb12711]

15 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I would hardly call Baker "historically" accurate.

If you're basing accuracy off completion percentage, then you're doing it wrong.

Eh, I'm not sure saying he's inaccurate is right either. The nerds coming up with new methodologies, for example, actually have Baker looking really strong with the so called "expected completion" models" https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/quarterback-accuracy-expected-on-target-percentage-baker-mayfield-russell-wilson/

I'm not calling Mayfield Drew Brees, but he's been pretty on target most of his career.

[TypicalBrowns50]

This thread 😂

[Dutch Oven]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I would hardly call Baker "historically" accurate.

If you're basing accuracy off completion percentage, then you're doing it wrong.

Brandon Weeden had an incredible completion percentage in college football, in fact, higher than Baker's. 

You are absolutely correct. 

[Unsympathetic]

16 hours ago, nickers said:

Willoughby-South Little league

Orange slices lined up on a paper towel is a kind of gap integrity.

I am not a crank.

 

On Sunday several times Baker missed by an overthrow rather than an underthrow of the target.. Yes, he's injured, and there's probably some pain -- but he needs to work through it because this will be his reality this season.  Physically nothing long-term after surgery&rehab - just needs to adapt to the new feelings within his body as he throws..

[Orion]

As to the Baker OBJ thing, I think if Baker has made a coupe of reads, and it's time to shit or get off the pot, he'll throw it in the area of OBJ because he can make whacky catches.  So, sometimes, it's almost like throwing the ball away because nobody's open.

[jrb12711]

14 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Brandon Weeden had an incredible completion percentage in college football, in fact, higher than Baker's. 

You are absolutely correct. 

I'd encourage you to review the link I put up a few posts ago. Not to sound crass, but I don't really care what he did in college at this point. But in the NFL by most metrics he's been an above average accuracy guy, especially since week 7 2020 to current.

[tiamat63]

On 10/8/2021 at 8:34 AM, jrb12711 said:

I'd encourage you to review the link I put up a few posts ago. Not to sound crass, but I don't really care what he did in college at this point. But in the NFL by most metrics he's been an above average accuracy guy, especially since week 7 2020 to current.

I'm curious how expected completion percentage is calculated?

There was one thing that was made incredibly clear to me when watching Corey Coleman when we took him out of Baylor and his PFF's grades --> projection.     Not all formulas take offensive design into account.   

Obviously this is sort of an apples to oranges in this case. But I'm just highlighting some of my concerns.  I'm not saying Baker is incredibly inaccurate.   But when he has been off, his turnover worthy throws go up quite a bit. 

[jiggins7919]

On 10/7/2021 at 3:04 PM, tiamat63 said:

I would hardly call Baker "historically" accurate.

If you're basing accuracy off completion percentage, then you're doing it wrong.

I hear you, but Baker can throw the pill better than he's showed the last few games. I know he's hurting, but I'd be SHOCKED if he didn't play better, even against a good pass defense and a 3rd string LT playing. What I'm hoping for is something similar to the first Steelers game last year when Baker was not good at all. Next game he's flat to start, then was literally perfect after the first quarter against the Bengals. 

Baker typically responds when criticism arrives. This is the toughest game of the year so far, it's cross country, Landry is out, and our LT situation is extremely bad. There's also the potential that Ward is out along with Newsome. There's every excuse in the world to struggle, but I want to see us push that aside and play well.