Masks update.

[LogicIsForSquares]

7 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

See this is that American individualism again, IMO. Other cultures seem to realize actions are being taken for the greater good and that's enough for them. For Americans we need to hear what's in it for us. 

I will take American individualism over living in a nanny state. Make a compelling argument as a governing body that makes people feel comfortable enough to do the things you want them to do. 

[MLD Woody]

5 hours ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

I will take American individualism over living in a nanny state. Make a compelling argument as a governing body that makes people feel comfortable enough to do the things you want them to do. 

The hundreds of thousands of deaths should be that argument. The deaths we saw in other countries. The success we saw in countries that gave a shit and listened to experts. 

 

Instead we get the "Well, it's SNOWING where I live!" crowd determining with their high school diplomas that masks don't work and vaccines kill people. (Not you logic, obviously). And the rest of us all deal with the consequences

 

[Westside Steve]

51 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

The hundreds of thousands of deaths should be that argument. The deaths we saw in other countries. The success we saw in countries that gave a shit and listened to experts. 

 

 

 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Who in particular?

WSS 

[MLD Woody]

7 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Who in particular?

WSS 

South Korea

[calfoxwc]

eh. what?

https://news.yahoo.com/south-korea-sets-another-record-125111060.html

South Korea sets another record for new daily COVID-19 cases

[Gorka]

14 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

 

Biden can not be the best president with this type of stuff and he can still be head and shoulders above Trump. That's the point. 

If there was a "kidding oneself" ranking, that gem would take the #1 spot.

"Let's go Brandon" wasn't created by the right-wing media. Biden is garbage without the right-wing media's help, and you know it.

Name one thing that has improved under Biden?

• Labor participation - nope.
• Gas prices - nope.
• Home heating prices - nope.
• Grocery prices - nope.
• Supplies - nope.
• Inflation overall - nope.
• Real wages - nope.
• Median income - nope.
• Deficit - nope.
• Debt - nope.
• GDP growth - nope.
• Afghanistan - nope.
• China - nope.
• Russia - nope.
• Foreign relations overall - nope.
• Getting America back to work - nope.
• Covid - fuck no.

[FairHooker11]

mean tweets 

[Westside Steve]

3 hours ago, Gorka said:

If there was a "kidding oneself" ranking, that gem would take the #1 spot.

"Let's go Brandon" wasn't created by the right-wing media. Biden is garbage without the right-wing media's help, and you know it.

Name one thing that has improved under Biden?

• Labor participation - nope.
• Gas prices - nope.
• Home heating prices - nope.
• Grocery prices - nope.
• Supplies - nope.
• Inflation overall - nope.
• Real wages - nope.
• Median income - nope.
• Deficit - nope.
• Debt - nope.
• GDP growth - nope.
• Afghanistan - nope.
• China - nope.
• Russia - nope.
• Foreign relations overall - nope.
• Getting America back to work - nope.
• Covid - fuck no.

Crime? Drugs? Violent crime? Mental and physical health? Exportation of jobs? Illegal immigration? Energy Independence?

Slam dunk? Sure but a slam dunk right into the crapper.

 

But hey, Trump Trump trump Trump trump.

wSS

[LogicIsForSquares]

 

The hundreds of thousands of deaths should be that argument. The deaths we saw in other countries. The success we saw in countries that gave a shit and listened to experts. 

 

Instead we get the "Well, it's SNOWING where I live!" crowd determining with their high school diplomas that masks don't work and vaccines kill people. (Not you logic, obviously). And the rest of us all deal with the consequences

 

I truly think the framing of it and the politicizing of the whole thing helped nothing. The gov and the left went immediately with the pull on emotions that unvaxxed people are bad and want people to die, as if the vaccine stops the spread at all.

This one hits pretty hard for me right now. I don’t share much detail about my life here. My mom is in the last stage of renal failure (been on dialysis for years) and just had to have heart surgery. I realistically don’t think a patient with kidney failure and uncontrolled (her doing) type 2 is going to make it through the time now post surgery. She has had two different spells of her blood pressure tanking out.  
 

I can’t go see her. I was around my dad Friday (they are split up) who didn’t know he had Covid (two positive tests). A coworker of his popped for Covid so he thought just in case he would test. Asymptomatic and positive. My aunt and step mom now have it. I have to wait 7 days so that my viral load can even be detected if it is there. I may not be able to see my mom before she passes. Every person in this has been vaccinated. It didn’t stop the spread at all. 
 

I know that is a big share but it is weighing heavy. They should have presented the vaccine as mitigating symptoms for individuals and not some super shot that will just end Covid. It made people skeptical who knew vaccinated people who still got sick and made some people think they are impervious to it for having received it. My dad, aunt, and step mom were floored that they could still get it. If my dad hadn’t tested, I would have likely visited my mom and could spread Covid to her. 

[Gorka]

30 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Crime? Drugs? Violent crime? Mental and physical health? Exportation of jobs? Illegal immigration? Energy Independence?

Slam dunk? Sure but a slam dunk right into the crapper.

 

But hey, Trump Trump trump Trump trump.

wSS

That could also apply to Hoorta.

Funny thing is that Woodly who pretends to distance himself from Biden had slipped up and defended his guy..

[Westside Steve]

33 minutes ago, Gorka said:

That could also apply to Hoorta.

 well In fairness he hasn't been over here much. The longer Trump is out of office the more he realizes there's not much to defend about the guy he voted for.

Funny thing is that Woodly who pretends to distance himself from Biden had slipped up and defended his guy..

 WP doesn't have any self-awareness whatsoever.

WSS 

[Gorka]

1 hour ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

I truly think the framing of it and the politicizing of the whole thing helped nothing. The gov and the left went immediately with the pull on emotions that unvaxxed people are bad and want people to die, as if the vaccine stops the spread at all.

This one hits pretty hard for me right now. I don’t share much detail about my life here. My mom is in the last stage of renal failure (been on dialysis for years) and just had to have heart surgery. I realistically don’t think a patient with kidney failure and uncontrolled (her doing) type 2 is going to make it through the time now post surgery. She has had two different spells of her blood pressure tanking out.  
 

I can’t go see her. I was around my dad Friday (they are split up) who didn’t know he had Covid (two positive tests). A coworker of his popped for Covid so he thought just in case he would test. Asymptomatic and positive. My aunt and step mom now have it. I have to wait 7 days so that my viral load can even be detected if it is there. I may not be able to see my mom before she passes. Every person in this has been vaccinated. It didn’t stop the spread at all. 
 

I know that is a big share but it is weighing heavy. They should have presented the vaccine as mitigating symptoms for individuals and not some super shot that will just end Covid. It made people skeptical who knew vaccinated people who still got sick and made some people think they are impervious to it for having received it. My dad, aunt, and step mom were floored that they could still get it. If my dad hadn’t tested, I would have likely visited my mom and could spread Covid to her. 

First of all sorry to hear about your mom's decline, I know it must be tough.

I guess I'll be the one to sort of take the fair and balanced role this time.lol

You're right the vax doesn't do much to stop the spread, but the likelihood a vaxed person sees the hospital or has severe symptoms is rare.

A recent study in Los Angeles County showed that while breakthrough infections can happen, the unvaccinated are 29 times as likely to end up hospitalized from Covid-19 as a vaccinated person.

The statistic below however cannot be accurate.

How do they know that only 1 in 5000, or even 1 in 100 vaxxed people experience a breakthrough infection with the possibility of many being asymptomatic?  I know a fully vaxxed person who didn't know he had COVID until he went into the hospital for a scheduled knee surgery. Your father is another example.

A study in Washington state gathered data from over 4 million fully vaccinated people. The data showed a rate of about 1 in 5,000 experienced a breakthrough infection between January 17 and August 21, 2021. More recently, some populations have shown breakthrough infection rates of approximately 1 in 100 fully vaccinated people.

These so-called vaccinations will never be 100% effective.

They are only therapeutic. 

 

[Gorka]

32 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

well In fairness he hasn't been over here much. The longer Trump is out of office the more he realizes there's not much to defend about the guy he voted for.

That's probably how he really feels, but he'll never admit to it.

He attributes his absence here to that tired cop-out excuse of not wanting to engage "right wing MAGA lunatics"....like you Steve. lol

[LogicIsForSquares]

1 hour ago, Gorka said:

First of all sorry to hear about your mom's decline, I know it must be tough.

I guess I'll be the one to sort of take the fair and balanced role this time.lol

You're right the vax doesn't do much to stop the spread, but the likelihood a vaxed person sees the hospital or has severe symptoms is rare.

A recent study in Los Angeles County showed that while breakthrough infections can happen, the unvaccinated are 29 times as likely to end up hospitalized from Covid-19 as a vaccinated person.

The statistic below however cannot be accurate.

How do they know that only 1 in 5000, or even 1 in 100 vaxxed people experience a breakthrough infection with the possibility of many being asymptomatic?  I know a fully vaxxed person who didn't know he had COVID until he went into the hospital for a scheduled knee surgery. Your father is another example.

A study in Washington state gathered data from over 4 million fully vaccinated people. The data showed a rate of about 1 in 5,000 experienced a breakthrough infection between January 17 and August 21, 2021. More recently, some populations have shown breakthrough infection rates of approximately 1 in 100 fully vaccinated people.

These so-called vaccinations will never be 100% effective.

They are only therapeutic. 

 

Yeah I have made this argument and it is what the gov should have gone with. It has a chance of mitigating the symptoms. However, it was advertised as just ending Covid haha.

[Vambo]

20 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

How do Biden's actions make me hypocritical?

If Biden is out and about with a cold and no mask then screw him, he should know better. 

Now, right wing media is looking for whatever pic they can get here, obviously, so that should be taken with a grain of salt. And both sides are very hypocritical. But none of that changes my stance or the science.

 

Biden can not be the best president with this type of stuff and he can still be head and shoulders above Trump. That's the point. 

[VaporTrail]

On 12/4/2021 at 10:16 PM, MLD Woody said:

The hundreds of thousands of deaths should be that argument. The deaths we saw in other countries. The success we saw in countries that gave a shit and listened to experts. 

 

Instead we get the "Well, it's SNOWING where I live!" crowd determining with their high school diplomas that masks don't work and vaccines kill people. (Not you logic, obviously). And the rest of us all deal with the consequences

There are legitimate reasons to be wary of being the first to get a new vaccine, particularly this one. It's insane to me that so many educated people are placing so much blame for the pandemic on the shoulders of people with less education. The complete inability to empathize with their fear of what they do not understand will make "populist versus elite" the driving political force in the next 5-10 years.

14 hours ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

I truly think the framing of it and the politicizing of the whole thing helped nothing. The gov and the left went immediately with the pull on emotions that unvaxxed people are bad and want people to die, as if the vaccine stops the spread at all.

Biden calling it "the pandemic of the unvaccinated" is the biggest error of his presidency. And some people thought the polarization was going to end once Trump was out. 

[Westside Steve]

10 hours ago, VaporTrail said:

 

Biden calling it "the pandemic of the unvaccinated" is the biggest error of his presidency. And some people thought the polarization was going to end once Trump was out. 

That's a little bit like saying that the stack of unpaid parking tickets is number one on Pol Pots list of misdeeds.

🙂

WSS

[Vambo]

On 12/4/2021 at 11:16 PM, MLD Woody said:

South Korea

Politics47 mins ago

Dem governor spotted maskless in DC despite pushing mask mandates in her own state

[MLD Woody]

On 12/5/2021 at 12:56 AM, calfoxwc said:

eh. what?

https://news.yahoo.com/south-korea-sets-another-record-125111060.html

South Korea sets another record for new daily COVID-19 cases

Honest question, do you have the brain of a child? Are your critical thinking skills really that poor? 

Do you even understand how the worst spike for south Korea relates to the worst spike for the US?

I legitimately think you don't have the ability to comprehend numbers and situations. That would explain so damn much.

 

 

 

Below we see a picture of Cal explaining which glass has the most water in it

 

 

 

[MLD Woody]

On 12/5/2021 at 8:13 AM, LogicIsForSquares said:

I truly think the framing of it and the politicizing of the whole thing helped nothing. The gov and the left went immediately with the pull on emotions that unvaxxed people are bad and want people to die, as if the vaccine stops the spread at all.

This one hits pretty hard for me right now. I don’t share much detail about my life here. My mom is in the last stage of renal failure (been on dialysis for years) and just had to have heart surgery. I realistically don’t think a patient with kidney failure and uncontrolled (her doing) type 2 is going to make it through the time now post surgery. She has had two different spells of her blood pressure tanking out.  
 

I can’t go see her. I was around my dad Friday (they are split up) who didn’t know he had Covid (two positive tests). A coworker of his popped for Covid so he thought just in case he would test. Asymptomatic and positive. My aunt and step mom now have it. I have to wait 7 days so that my viral load can even be detected if it is there. I may not be able to see my mom before she passes. Every person in this has been vaccinated. It didn’t stop the spread at all. 
 

I know that is a big share but it is weighing heavy. They should have presented the vaccine as mitigating symptoms for individuals and not some super shot that will just end Covid. It made people skeptical who knew vaccinated people who still got sick and made some people think they are impervious to it for having received it. My dad, aunt, and step mom were floored that they could still get it. If my dad hadn’t tested, I would have likely visited my mom and could spread Covid to her. 

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I hope everything turns out alright. 

You're not wrong when it comes to poor messaging. When stuff comes up from scientific or medical studies, and you track it all of the way back to the original study, you can try and see the author's original intent. By the time it hits the media many times it is something completely different (climate change is a big one). What the vaccine is and what is does could have been framed better. Unfortunately, I still believe there is a sizeable portion of this country where that doesn't matter no matter how well it is explained, but it could have helped clear up some confusion. 

 

[calfoxwc]

On 12/5/2021 at 8:13 AM, LogicIsForSquares said:

I truly think the framing of it and the politicizing of the whole thing helped nothing. The gov and the left went immediately with the pull on emotions that unvaxxed people are bad and want people to die, as if the vaccine stops the spread at all.

This one hits pretty hard for me right now. I don’t share much detail about my life here. My mom is in the last stage of renal failure (been on dialysis for years) and just had to have heart surgery. I realistically don’t think a patient with kidney failure and uncontrolled (her doing) type 2 is going to make it through the time now post surgery. She has had two different spells of her blood pressure tanking out.  
 

I can’t go see her. I was around my dad Friday (they are split up) who didn’t know he had Covid (two positive tests). A coworker of his popped for Covid so he thought just in case he would test. Asymptomatic and positive. My aunt and step mom now have it. I have to wait 7 days so that my viral load can even be detected if it is there. I may not be able to see my mom before she passes. Every person in this has been vaccinated. It didn’t stop the spread at all. 
 

I know that is a big share but it is weighing heavy. They should have presented the vaccine as mitigating symptoms for individuals and not some super shot that will just end Covid. It made people skeptical who knew vaccinated people who still got sick and made some people think they are impervious to it for having received it. My dad, aunt, and step mom were floored that they could still get it. If my dad hadn’t tested, I would have likely visited my mom and could spread Covid to her. 

That is such a heartbreak, Logic. Sorry to hear. Prayers your family's way.

[MLD Woody]

23 hours ago, VaporTrail said:

There are legitimate reasons to be wary of being the first to get a new vaccine, particularly this one. It's insane to me that so many educated people are placing so much blame for the pandemic on the shoulders of people with less education. The complete inability to empathize with their fear of what they do not understand will make "populist versus elite" the driving political force in the next 5-10 years.

Biden calling it "the pandemic of the unvaccinated" is the biggest error of his presidency. And some people thought the polarization was going to end once Trump was out. 

 

I'm sorry man, but at some point, people need to just figure this shit out. Outside of those living in conditions where access to information isn't readily available, I'm not sure what excuse anyone has to "not understand" what's going on. I've said many times that part of me does legitimately consider JAFBF a victim of misinformation and some of the bad parts of the internet. Actual fake news has led to plenty of COVID deaths and these media outlets have no intent to stop any time soon. I get that can confusing to some who want to trust the "news". But at the same time, I'll be a conservative here and preach personal responsibility. I can try to emphasize with a lot of people in different / worse conditions than me, I'm happy to recognize how lucky I am, I believe it is more than fair that I pay taxes and those taxes go to social programs... but at the end of 2021 if we're still having to talk about fucking masks than I am sorry, but I am losing any sympathy I have left. This isn't the educated looking down on others because they didn't learn calculus or something. This is those frustrated with our current situation looking down on those wanting to march around acting like they know more than the scientists while sourcing Facebook feeds and memes... my patience is just way too damn thin. My overall faith in humanity has seen better days.

 

Polarization was never going to end after just one president. We can step in the right direction, but it isn't going away. The wake of trash Trump brought in with him isn't going anywhere and is busy racially insulting a Mulsim congresswoman. Again, not going anywhere any time soon.

[VaporTrail]

1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

I'm not sure what excuse anyone has to "not understand" what's going on. I've said many times that part of me does legitimately consider JAFBF a victim of misinformation and some of the bad parts of the internet

Because you too are a victim of the polarized media and have been conditioned to dehumanize them and downplay any opinion that differs from their talking points. I have posted data straight from the CDC that suggests that maybe kids shouldn't get it, and your initial response was iirc, "If that data is true," followed by an appeal to authority. So, if there's data coming from official sources that you aren't comfortable with, then surely you could see how people who have a lower IQ than you would struggle with crazy amount of scientific data that's been published since this started.  

People like JAFBF are not representative of the average person I see in clinic who is scared of the vaccine. His caricature makes you angry, but really, people like him are not the root of the problem, much as it'd be easier to believe that was the case. 

[Vambo]

FAUCI FUELING FEAR

Doctor accused of doing 'immeasurable harm' by flip flopping dire warnings

[Canton Dawg]

7 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

The wake of trash Trump brought in with him isn't going anywhere and is busy racially insulting a Mulsim congresswoman.

Which Muslim congresswoman are you referring to?

Was it the one who married her brother? Or the one who said “impeach the motherfucker”?

Both sound like upstanding American citizens.

[Westside Steve]

7 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

 

I'm sorry man, but at some point, people need to just figure this shit out. Outside of those living in conditions where access to information isn't readily available, I'm not sure what excuse anyone has to "not understand" what's going on. I've said many times that part of me does legitimately consider JAFBF a victim of misinformation and some of the bad parts of the internet. Actual fake news has led to plenty of COVID deaths and these media outlets have no intent to stop any time soon. I get that can confusing to some who want to trust the "news". But at the same time, I'll be a conservative here and preach personal responsibility. I can try to emphasize with a lot of people in different / worse conditions than me, I'm happy to recognize how lucky I am, I believe it is more than fair that I pay taxes and those taxes go to social programs... but at the end of 2021 if we're still having to talk about fucking masks than I am sorry, but I am losing any sympathy I have left. This isn't the educated looking down on others because they didn't learn calculus or something. This is those frustrated with our current situation looking down on those wanting to march around acting like they know more than the scientists while sourcing Facebook feeds and memes... my patience is just way too damn thin. My overall faith in humanity has seen better days.

 

Polarization was never going to end after just one president.

But it's certainly been made worse due to the stooge you voted in.

We can step in the right direction, but it isn't going away.

Not with ignorant and bitter people voting the way you do.

The wake of trash Trump brought in with him isn't going anywhere and is busy racially insulting a Mulsim congresswoman. Again, not going anywhere any time soon.

Omar deserves every bit of criticism or even insult as she gets. By the way Muslim isn't a race stooge. Maybe defending Islamic terrorism could be considered a Creed but that's a different thing. Not that I expect you to know the difference.

WSS 

[MLD Woody]

On 12/7/2021 at 6:18 AM, Westside Steve said:

Omar deserves every bit of criticism or even insult as she gets. By the way Muslim isn't a race stooge. Maybe defending Islamic terrorism could be considered a Creed but that's a different thing. Not that I expect you to know the difference.

WSS 

In no way has it gotten any "worse" since Biden was elected. That has the same energy as Cal calling Obama the "most racist" president.

In what way am I ignorant or bitter? So anyone that didn't vote for your guy you consider ignorant or bitter, but yet you're blaming the other side for all of the division... Right...

 

If you want to defend the braindead congresswoman that said Omar was part of the "jihad squad" and joked she would blow up an elevator, if you're defending THAT then I don't even know what to tell you. You're clearly too far gone. 

Boebert of course then yammered on about cancel culture, but not much else. 

[calfoxwc]

43 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

That has the same energy as Cal calling Obama the "most racist" president.

Ben Stein: Obama 'most racist president' in American history

https://www.washingtontimes.com › news › 2014 › nov › 3 › ben-stein-obama-most-racist-president-in-american-

Nov 3, 2014Ben Stein on Sunday blasted President Obama for being the most racist president in American history, arguing that he and fellow Democrats are purposefully using race to divide the American people.

***************************************

20 Reasons Why Obama Was the Most Racist and Divisive ...

https://thepoliticalinsider.com › 20-reasons-obama-most-divisive-president-history

Here are 20 reasons why Barack Obama was the most divisive and racist president the United States of America has ever seen. ... 20 Reasons Why Obama Was the Most Divisive President In History. By Ann August 29, 2017 at 12:14pm. Share; ... Ann is a conservative political blogger whose work has appeared on Bleacher Report and America Liberty PAC. ...

***************************************

Worst. President. Ever: Obama's the Most Racist President ...

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com › 2017 › 01 › worst-president-ever-obamas-the-most-racist-president-in-50-years-since-democrat-lbj

LBJ was a racist and tapes of his discussions while President prove it. The White House didn't house an individual as racist as LBJ in nearly 50 years until President Barack Obama was elected into the Office in 2008.Obama and Democrats lost white working class voters across the US throughout his Presidency.

 

[MLD Woody]

On 12/7/2021 at 12:24 AM, VaporTrail said:

Because you too are a victim of the polarized media and have been conditioned to dehumanize them and downplay any opinion that differs from their talking points. I have posted data straight from the CDC that suggests that maybe kids shouldn't get it, and your initial response was iirc, "If that data is true," followed by an appeal to authority. So, if there's data coming from official sources that you aren't comfortable with, then surely you could see how people who have a lower IQ than you would struggle with crazy amount of scientific data that's been published since this started.  

People like JAFBF are not representative of the average person I see in clinic who is scared of the vaccine. His caricature makes you angry, but really, people like him are not the root of the problem, much as it'd be easier to believe that was the case. 

At this point I consume more conservative news thanks to this board. That being said, comparing whatever bias you think I'm consuming to those thinking masks make you unable to breathe, the group that didn't think covid was real, I'm sorry... No way 

I'll entertain any argument with legitimate sourcing to back it up. With most of the posts here that isn't happening. I dig through the trail of sources and don't find a solid foundation. 

It wasn't "if that data is true" it was "if you believe that data is true, and...". I was framing the point I was going to make. I'm not questioning the CDCs data. You're calling it an "appeal to authority" fallacy but the "authority" is the exact place you're sourcing data from on top of additional legitimate medical groups, including pediatricians. My ask was why a group dedicated to the health of children would recommend something that's detrimental to the health of children. Again, I wasn't saying the CDC data was wrong. 

Again, I agree the communication with this whole thing wasn't great. COVID becoming political only made things worse. As a manager during covid in a given day i could hear something different from my boss, the CEO, the governor, the president, and the CDC. Appeal to authority isn't always a logical fallacy. Experts, scientists and academics exist for a reason. 

I'm not angry. I'm frustrated, disappointed, and concerned. I've said many times as much as I blame JAFBF and say he has personal responsibility, I also realize he's a victim of misinformation. He's a symptom, not the disease. 

[Westside Steve]

2 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

In no way has it gotten any "worse" since Biden was elected. That has the same energy as Cal calling Obama the "most racist" president.

Well thats not true anymore.  Good choice.

In what way am I ignorant or bitter? So anyone that didn't vote for your guy you consider ignorant or bitter, but yet you're blaming the other side for all of the division... Right...

 My guy? You (or anyone) could have voted for anybody other than the one you did vote for. Doesn't have to be my guy.

If you want to defend the braindead congresswoman that said Omar was part of the "jihad squad" and joked she would blow up an elevator, if you're defending THAT then I don't even know what to tell you. You're clearly too far gone. 

 Yeah so what? She said something along the lines that the United States military or the actual terrorists. She sucks. I don't care if you concur, she still sucks.

Boebert of course then yammered on about cancel culture, but not much else. 

 I see how that could upset you. Oh well.

wss