Second Grand Jury Declines to Indict Watson

[hish747]

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2022/03/second-grand-jury-declines-to-indict-deshaun-watson.html

We should all understand the importance of a Grand Jury failing to indict.

Some folks are under the impression that, because it relates to a criminal matter, the grand jury has to find that the case is made "beyond a reasonable doubt." They then think that even though the grand jury fails to indict, the civil case has a better chance of success. It's the opposite. The grand jury case is MUCH easier to prove than the civil case. The grand jury standard is the same standard used in the civil case but the prosecutor is the only one who presents the case to the jury. There is no defense attorney to dispute any evidence or statements made by the prosecutor or in any way oppose the prosecutors case. These cases are exceedingly weak I'm starting to believe the only reason the prosecution even filed these cases is public pressure. 

If you can't convince a jury in the easiest proceeding there is with your strongest cases you have, imagine what happens in a civil case when the jury gets to hear:

-Other therapists who testify that Watson is polite and courteous.

-Many of the plaintiff pretty much said they are doing this for the money

-Many of the plaintiffs had repeated appointments despite the "shocking" behavior

-One of the plaintiffs actually blackmailed Watson for $30,000 with the threat that they would lie about what happened.

-The plaintiffs deleted their social media accounts 

-The whole thing about Buzbee being McNair's neighbor and lying about not knowing who the Texans owner was.

(Buzbee took out 10 billboards in 2014 asking McNair, by name, to draft Manziel)

-McNair being angry at Watson for demanding a trade

-The lawsuit were filed the day before the start of free agency

 

The defenses go on and on but you can see where this is going...

[hoorta]

But will Busbee try to find a third Grand Jury?   😉 Like the above... Plaintiffs thought they were underpaid for the sex rubs, and along with their (Busbee) lawyer they want to get compensated big time. 

Can't remember the exact details, but IIRC there were some pretty seedy goings on in Dallas strip clubs involving NFL players a while back.  

[Unsympathetic]

I was on a grand jury for 5 months of my life.  I saw the evidence for 100% of the cases completed by the prosecutors in that county in that period.

The question put before a grand jury is.. ASSUMING the evidence is true and accurate, should this case move forward?

 

Granted that assumption is big enough to drive a truck through - thus if the grand jury doesn't indict, with 99% certainty the evidence is not sufficient.

 

The purpose of a grand jury is to remove the possibility that the state simply invented their case -- and a grand jury actually has substantial powers of independent investigation which aren't communicated, but that's a different subject for another thread.

[hoorta]

6 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

I was on a grand jury for 5 months of my life.  I saw the evidence for 100% of the cases completed by the prosecutors in that county in that period.

The question put before a grand jury is.. ASSUMING the evidence is true and accurate, should this case move forward?

Granted that assumption is big enough to drive a truck through - thus if the grand jury doesn't indict, with 99% certainty the evidence is not sufficient.

The purpose of a grand jury is to remove the possibility that the state simply invented their case -- and a grand jury actually has substantial powers of independent investigation which aren't communicated, but that's a different subject for another thread.

So then the way I read this is... the plaintiff's accusations aren't credible (they're making stuff up) probably to get Sugar Daddy to pay up...  Which is what Watson is asserting.  

[hish747]

33 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

I was on a grand jury for 5 months of my life.  I saw the evidence for 100% of the cases completed by the prosecutors in that county in that period.

The question put before a grand jury is.. ASSUMING the evidence is true and accurate, should this case move forward?

Interesting. Being a lawyer, I will never be selected on a jury, grand or otherwise. Was that in the same Texas county? Did the prosecutor present any exculpatory evidence? Or just the evidence that they believe shows guilt?

 

[hish747]

40 minutes ago, hoorta said:

But will Busbee try to find a third Grand Jury?   😉 Like the above...

 

Buzbee isn't directly involved in the criminal process. 

[Unsympathetic]

15 minutes ago, hish747 said:

Did the prosecutor present any exculpatory evidence? Or just the evidence that they believe shows guilt?

Only on one case where they did a "here's a collection of tangentially related facts we're throwing against a wall hoping something sticks" presentation.

 

Here's a guy who owns many guns, here's some warm spent rounds on his property that didn't fit any gun we could find, here's a gun case with an indentation of an empty spot where we believe a pistol used to be that would have fired that caliber, here's a box of bullets found in gun owner's house with the rest of his ammo that has a few missing which match the caliber of the bullets we've found.. Should we charge the owner of the property for firing a gun we didn't find?  Uh.. how about no, because nobody was hit and the only person asserting any damages was a guy who was trespassing on gun owner's property to begin with and received - at most a warning shot?

[Axe]

1 hour ago, hish747 said:

McNair being angry at Watson for demanding a trade

-The lawsuit were filed the day before the start of free agency

 

 

I've always felt like this was probably the driving force behind all of this.

[SdBacker80]

Each failure to indict should be considered for the suspension that is sure to come. 
 

So let’s do the talley: 9 were brought forward in one county.  And all were dismissed.

3 were not even considered.

and now 1 additional was brought in another county and dismissed.

So 13 are gone and 9 potentially left? Any other counties out there? 

[Axe]

28 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Each failure to indict should be considered for the suspension that is sure to come. 
 

Should the 17 week 2021 yr count towards time served ?

 

[SdBacker80]

6 minutes ago, Axe said:

Should the 17 week 2021 yr count towards time served ?

 

IMO Yes, but he was paid

[Axe]

17 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

IMO Yes, but he was paid

As he probably should have been. But his trade value plummeted to ....

 

Essentially, he's already served a yr of paid suspension for something he was never charged with. Is that not enough?

 

If you subscribe to the theory that everything is about money.. And it is.. Then isn't the price of this lost FA yr because of apparent bogus accusations possibly brought on by an owner that wanted to diminish his FA value. A lost yr of FA that he absorbed, not sufficient for any pending NFL suspension?

[Orion]

43 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Each failure to indict should be considered for the suspension that is sure to come.

If there end up (and hopefully the 'end' is now) being NO indictments........then on what grounds would the NFL suspend him?  Bad publicity?  He hasn't tried to physically hurt anyone in any way nor has he threatened anyone.  I mean, can Roger just say, "I don't care what grand juries say, I think you did something so I'm suspending you!"  

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, Axe said:

What the actual fuck?

Yeah, I deleted that.

The grand jury did indict members of the 1919 White Sox, but they eventually were found not guilty.

The commissioner of MLB banned eight members of the team for life, regardless. 

[Axe]

As have I

 

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, Axe said:

As he probably should have been. But his trade value plummeted to ....

 

Essentially, he's already served a yr of paid suspension for something he was never charged with. Is that not enough?

 

If you subscribe to the theory that everything is about money.. And it is.. Then isn't the price of this lost FA yr because of apparent bogus accusations possibly brought on by an owner that wanted to diminish his FA value. A lost yr of FA that he absorbed, not sufficient for any pending NFL suspension?

No I understand where you are coming from.  And I would consider the lost time as punishment.  He could have perfected his craft in that year.  Maybe he had clauses in his old contract (performance bonuses) that he missed out on. On the flip side he saved a year of wear and tear on his body (important as a dual threat guy).  Maybe instead of retiring at 36 he now has an extra year in him at 37 or 38 more earning potential.
 

His trade value is a relevant issue only to the team that turned him in the Texans. Could they have gotten more if the Owner didn’t allegedly conspire against Watson?  He also had a no trade clause and he could control his next destination.  He had four teams interested and a number of others that are settled or didn’t have cap room regardless of his issues.

You mention free agency…well he tore up his old contract and got a record number as far as guaranteed money is concerned. He made out okay…and although you and I may not agree NFL headquarters see this and it may weigh heavily when they try to be “fair” and send a message. 
 

Paid Leave.  When we hear these two words together as a society what comes to mind?  

 

[hoorta]

5 hours ago, hish747 said:

 

Buzbee isn't directly involved in the criminal process. 

thanks for clarifying...  BUT... He's sure the lead guy trying to get those poor ladies paid.  

[hish747]

21 minutes ago, hoorta said:

thanks for clarifying...  BUT... He's sure the lead guy trying to get those poor ladies paid.  

Mostly he's trying to get himself paid. He could potentially get around ten times what each plaintiff receives. He can of course encourage any of the plaintiffs to file a criminal complaint; which he probably has.

[hoorta]

6 minutes ago, hish747 said:

Mostly he's trying to get himself paid. He could potentially get around ten times what each plaintiff receives. He can of course encourage any of the plaintiffs to file a criminal complaint; which he probably has.

Just listening to his rhetoric, exactly.  

The bad part of this is how long he can drag the festivities out, and hope Watson will pay him off to go away...

Exhibit 1A...  Here Dayton way one of the ambulance chasers kept it going for years when his (drunk, deceased) client was in a Wal-Mart and took out a very realistic looking pellet gun and started waving it around... cops told him to drop it.. Nope, bam, you're dead. Eventually got the City of Beavercreek PD and Wal-Mart to pay the aggrieved family (and him) millions to just go the f**k away already.   

[mjp28]

2 hours ago, hoorta said:

Just listening to his rhetoric, exactly.  

The bad part of this is how long he can drag the festivities out, and hope Watson will pay him off to go away...

Exhibit 1A...  Here Dayton way one of the ambulance chasers kept it going for years when his (drunk, deceased) client was in a Wal-Mart and took out a very realistic looking pellet gun and started waving it around... cops told him to drop it.. Nope, bam, you're dead. Eventually got the City of Beavercreek PD and Wal-Mart to pay the aggrieved family (and him) millions to just go the f**k away already.   

Oh yes.....that type sometimes go viral and get their 15 minutes of fame meanwhile somebody else ends up paying to clean up the mess.

And attorneys can't live with them and can't collect without them.   

[nickers]

4 hours ago, hoorta said:

thanks for clarifying...  BUT... He's sure the lead guy trying to get those poor ladies paid.  

Buzbee wants to get paid , too...

[TexasAg1969]

It's just a bigger and better legal form of the Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. Somebody is getting fucked over for money and that somebody appears to be Watson.

[tiamat63]

6 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

It's just a bigger and better legal form of the Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. Somebody is getting fucked over for money and that somebody appears to be Watson.

Didn't ZZ top have a line about this...

That shack outside La Grange?

[Bob806]

10 hours ago, Orion said:

If there end up (and hopefully the 'end' is now) being NO indictments........then on what grounds would the NFL suspend him?  Bad publicity?  He hasn't tried to physically hurt anyone in any way nor has he threatened anyone.  I mean, can Roger just say, "I don't care what grand juries say, I think you did something so I'm suspending you!"  

Knowing Roger, yes. He's been consistently inconsistent regarding player punishments and fines.

[Westside Steve]

13 hours ago, hoorta said:

But will Busbee try to find a third Grand Jury?   😉 Like the above... Plaintiffs thought they were underpaid for the sex rubs, and along with their (Busbee) lawyer they want to get compensated big time. 

Can't remember the exact details, but IIRC there were some pretty seedy goings on in Dallas strip clubs involving NFL players a while back.  

Just a guess but I would think a Dallas strip club would be among the most likely establishments in which to discover seedy behavior. 

Of course this is written from a defense position but regardless I don't really want to see anybody, even a player I don't want, railroaded.

WSS

[nickers]

Okay... So now the question is... When do we find out what happens to Watson concerning the season...

[mjp28]

1 minute ago, nickers said:

Okay... So now the question is... When do we find out what happens to Watson concerning the season...

Before it's too late ? 

Ooooops I think that that ship might have sailed and the  SS CLEVELAND BROWNS  🇺🇸  is on the hook for a ton of cash and bad PR well into this coming football season no matter what.   Oh yeah and someone has to take the snaps or the ball will just fly back with no one there.

How did they get into this mess in the first place ?        

[TexasAg1969]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Didn't ZZ top have a line about this...

That shack outside La Grange?

The song La Grange is all about it, "they gotta lot a nice girls there."

And I can personally attest it was not shack, but a real house with many rooms and a quarter jukebox. LOL!🤠💃

[5150k9]

16 hours ago, hish747 said:

Interesting. Being a lawyer, I will never be selected on a jury, grand or otherwise. Was that in the same Texas county? Did the prosecutor present any exculpatory evidence? Or just the evidence that they believe shows guilt?

 

Being a retired Police Officer and Detective, the grand jury process is exclusively presented by the prosecution and the there is no defense testimony. Usually the grand jury process is an easier way to get charges filed unlike a preliminary hearing where most evidence(witness testimony) is presented and the defense also presents their case and  a judge decides. So that should tell you a lot. 

[D Bone]

2 hours ago, nickers said:

Okay... So now the question is... When do we find out what happens to Watson concerning the season...

I'm guessing sooner rather than later.

The Browns are playing the long game on DW, much like if they used a really high pick on a rookie QB (Hi Baker!). They are expecting DW to miss 8ish games this year and will pin those games on Jacoby in hopes they can come out on the other side at 4-4, where they then will ask DW to go 6-3 and see what 10-7 shakes out to be.

After next season they will be full strength and we'll all see what happens..... It's no different than the approach of drafting the best rookie QB, with the one major difference being that the Browns already know that DW can play at a high level in the NFL, whereas the #1 overall rookie QB is projected to be able to play at a high level in the NFL.... and we all know how far off projections can be. (Hi again Baker!)