Preseason Game 3: Bears at Browns August 27

[tiamat63]

I wonder what the Jets would take to get Mims off their hands...

[Kvoethe]

2 hours ago, nickers said:

Dropped 6 passes

The Ball is my friend!!!

[SdBacker80]

2 hours ago, Neo said:

Everybody talks about Shwartz's world class speed, has it ever helped the Browns? Every time I see him do a jet sweep or reverse he doesn't go far. Has he returned kickoffs or punts for touchdowns? I think it's time to move on. No need to keep a fast guy if he can't put that speed to use. Maybe convert to DB?🤷‍♂️

Chiefs Browns Week 1 he got behind the defense…we’ve had a handful of end arounds to him the past Year plus- were Any of those meaningful plays - 10 plus yards? I don’t think so. 

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

The problem is, I'd do backflips if Schwartz could develop in the Michael (Dyson for one game) Jackson category. That's how far he is at this point to that. 

I'm probably being naive, but I still would be somewhat surprised if he doesn't get cut, but you are probably correct - they aren't cutting the string with a second year 3rd round pick of theirs. (Now, if someone else had drafted him, absolutely)

Well said Dutch!

As a fan, I'm looking at it like if Schwartz couldn't make any other rosters in the AFC North - he shouldn't be making this roster if it has playoff aspirations.  The only type of roster that should be interested in Schwartz at this point would be one unofficially planning to earn the 1st overall pick in Seattle. 

Hearing Stefanski come to Schwartz's rescue, makes me think Berry has already been in his ear with "this is why you're our guy Kevin"  type of UH-OH!  Hope I'm wrong.

The sad thing in all is I don't think it's a lack of effort from Schwartz and he's probably a really likable kid.  This poor guy just looks like he plays with his eyes closed; and he has zero feel for the game.  If the Browns are going to return to drafting these kinds of guys - we're all wasting serious time here.  Maybe we should be watching lost episodes of the Mandrell Sisters with Ghoolie.  

[Neo]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

The sad thing in all is I don't think it's a lack of effort

He can't catch, his speed doesn't translate into good things for the Browns, and he is pretty much the sole reason Baker is playing for Carolina. I don't think there has ever been more of a reason to cut a player. 

[SdBacker80]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I wonder what the Jets would take to get Mims off their hands...

You got 4 guys on our roster not counting Cooper and DPJ that have shown more than Schwartz 

[tiamat63]

1 minute ago, SdBacker80 said:

You got 4 guys on our roster not counting Cooper and DPJ that have shown more than Schwartz 

My comment had little to do with a direct Schwartz comparison = value and more of just pointing out the overall talent and ability of the WR room in general at this moment.

[gumby73]

 

 

A good GM admits their mistakes. Bad GM’s keep their own drafted players like Schwartz because? 1) NFL experience 2) Lack of his/this teams WR depth

 

This was wrote this past June..

 https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/LongFormArticle/obr-roundtable-andrew-berry-draft-pick-cut-188752349/#188752349_1

 

Maybe a few 9 to watch moving forward?  

2020 – DT Jordan Elliott, LB Jacob Phillips,OL Nick Harris

2021 – WR Anthony Schwartz   https://stathead.com/tiny/X5W8e 

 

 

2021 – OL James Hudson, DT Tommy Togiai

2021 – LB Tony Fields II, S Richard LeCounte III

2021 – RB/WR Demetric Felton

 

AB has made 23 draft choices since his hire date

[tiamat63]

All 22 is up.   Observations.

- Pocic struggled, pretty bad at times.   There are clear instances where his height works against him as a center, especially trying to anchor in pass pro.    Our running game just isn't the same having a body like him as the middle piece.    It's not like his decision making is bad, it's his execution that gets him in trouble.

- Forbes was tossed around and beaten a few times.  Gave up a couple pressures that were at crucial moments... 3rd down and 4th down.  Can't have that.

- Jed is still struggling at times when he oversets to the edge.  He has been beaten to his inside shoulder a number of times this pre-season.  He gave up 2 pressures the 1st half, the 1st prevented Jacoby from taking a well designed shot down the middle to Miller Forristal (spell check) against a unique little cover 2 call from the Bears.  His waist bend has become significantly noticeable, as a result his weight distribution just looks wonky as all hell to my eyes.         

- The Bears defense continues to astound me.  Even with the coaching switch, I see the continuity of their calls. The DB's communication, understanding how to leverage routes and their physical style of play, you can't help but be impressed even with the 2's and the men getting them in the places and mindset to succeed.     There was a nice wrinkle Stef called against CHI who walked out their familiar under front.  The wrinkle was the pin and pull. Which the Chicago DB's took on the leads, held their ground and created such a traffic jam that DJ couldn't pick up the yards you would expect that design to net.

- Felton is being moved around a good bit, being  given room to operate as a de-facto underneath receiver for this offense.    If there are two players Jacoby needs to get on the same page with as early as humanly possible, it's Felton and Njoku.

- That deep post/corner to Schwartz was a near impossible catch if your name isn't Larry Fitzgerald.     Even then, it's ignoring the fact that Jacoby had two other clear options in the short and intermediate field on 3rd and 2 for a high percentage throw, catch and conversion.  Which brings me to my next point...

- Jacoby had a so-so outing.  There are some positives, but it's clear there are limits to his game AND the time that both he, and the rest of this offense, are going to need in order to at least field a consistently effective squad.     

 

 

 

I suppose my greatest concerns from the offensive side of the ball mirror my concerns from the defensive side of the ball.... simply lacking the NFL starting caliber personnel right down the middle of your trenches.     The Browns have an issue at center, possibly LT.  And they also have an issue at IDL.     The problem with that sort of thing is how fundamental it is to gameplan against those types of weaknesses and to also be prepared for how the Browns might attempt to mask them as well.   

    

 

 

[Dutch Oven]

10 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

  I suppose my greatest concerns from the offensive side of the ball mirror my concerns from the defensive side of the ball.... simply lacking the NFL starting caliber personnel right down the middle of your trenches.     The Browns have an issue at center, possibly LT.  And they also have an issue at IDL.     The problem with that sort of thing is how fundamental it is to gameplan against those types of weaknesses and to also be prepared for how the Browns might attempt to mask them as well.   

    

 

 

I keep thinking back to the 2014 season, and how the team seemed to fall apart when Mack went down. 

The idea that Pocic is trying to learn how to play in the zone blocking scheme on the fly scares the bejesus out of me. 

[tiamat63]

13 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

 

The idea that Pocic is trying to learn how to play in the zone blocking scheme on the fly scares the bejesus out of me. 

I really don't think that's quite it.   Coming over from Seattle, it's not like the man is unfamiliar with the principles of modern zone blocking schemes.

[Dutch Oven]

2 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I really don't think that's quite it.   Coming over from Seattle, it's not like the man is unfamiliar with the principles of modern zone blocking schemes.

From what I've heard, the system he came from is different from what the Browns run. 

[tiamat63]

6 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

From what I've heard, the system he came from is different from what the Browns run. 

Seattle runs/ran a great deal of inside zone and (what I call) false read outside.   They would also set Russel up off his boots from both the IZ/OZ zone.  I do know they either did, or continue to do, a great mixing of that gap and down power/angle as well.   Something I remember being a focus of theirs after Rashaad Penny was drafted.  

The language might be different, so are the coaches, but the concepts behind an outsize zone and a vertical zone scheme are pretty universal.  Even if the language is different, you can still understand the core idea(s).   

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, tiamat63 said:

Seattle runs/ran a great deal of inside zone and (what I call) false read outsize.   They would also set Russel up off his boots from both the IZ/OZ zone.  I do know they either did, or continue to do, a great mixing of that gap and down power/angle as well.   Something I remember being a focus of theirs after Rashaad Penny was drafted.  

The language might be different, so are the coaches, but the concepts behind an outsize zone and a vertical zone scheme are pretty universal.  Even if the language is different, you can still understand the core idea(s).   

I can't recall who mentioned the learning curve he has now with the Browns, but looking info up on him he seems to have played in a zone blocking system at LSU too, but he ranked very poorly in it as a full-time starter in 2020. I wish I could remember who said that about his struggles with learning the Browns system... (Daryl Ruiter maybe?)

[tiamat63]

17 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

 (Daryl Ruiter maybe?)

Had no idea who that was until I googled him.  Looks like he's a big time contributor on 92.3... which means his take is a shot in the dark at nothing,  and I'm being kind in my phrasing.   Because when you say "x insert, has a learning curve" you need to be far more specific.  Otherwise you're just spitting words out in an attempt to sound intelligent.   Which is 95%+ of sports radio anyway.     Now if the learning curve is how our coaches call protections against fronts and pressure, I can understand that.  However that still doesn't account for Pocic's individual defeats when he is assignment sound.  If he isn't clued to how we like to run our pin and pull outside calls, I can also work with those sorts of specifics.   But it still doesn't eliminate the primary problem, which circles back around to my previous sentence - execution. 

Tell Daryl to get at me and we can talk 🤪

 

The struggles Pocic having seem to be more with his engagement, execution and ability vs him actually understanding his assignment. 

 

edit: And that's not me calling you out or anything Dutch.  Just my feelings on how most sports writers and radio broadcasters cover their teams.  I'm a man possessed of complex detail in a world that loves being overly general and vague.

[Orion]

So, what I'm hearing here is that we need a center, our LT is average, and we're stuck with Schwartz.  

[tiamat63]

6 minutes ago, Orion said:

So, what I'm hearing here is that we need a center, our LT is average, and we're stuck with Schwartz.  

Slightly above average at the moment.  "Serviceable" is the word I would use.  In the long term view of things, that's pretty acceptable when Watson is QB'ing.  At that point my focus would be on the IOL integrity.

edit: I wonder how Pocic would fare at guard?   Just thinking out loud.

[SdBacker80]

12 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Slightly above average at the moment.  "Serviceable" is the word I would use.  In the long term view of things, that's pretty acceptable when Watson is QB'ing.  At that point my focus would be on the IOL integrity.

edit: I wonder how Pocic would fare at guard?   Just thinking out loud.

Pocic at Guard - means Bitonio at Right tackle.  He played there I want to say 3/4 years ago briefly.  All of this means Conklin isn’t ready.  So the bigger question if I didn’t create more questions with the above- who is on First? I mean who plays Center?

ride or die now at this point I guess with Pocic at Center. 

[Dutch Oven]

17 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Slightly above average at the moment.  "Serviceable" is the word I would use.  In the long term view of things, that's pretty acceptable when Watson is QB'ing.  At that point my focus would be on the IOL integrity.

edit: I wonder how Pocic would fare at guard?   Just thinking out loud.

He didn't seem to do well at OG in Seattle, which is how he ended back at center. 

I don't even want to think what happens if Pocic gets hurt. 

[SdBacker80]

I know we have needs but I’m not ready to trade Kareem for a #3 WR or Starting caliber DT (We’ve done plenty to make this a good defense- make it work Joe).

We haven’t seen 30-40 times of Chubb and Hunt in the run and pass game with Jacoby yet.   And each can mask a few weaknesses we may have with Jacoby, our Center or are lack of multiple downfield threats. 

[nickers]

10 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

I know we have needs but I’m not ready to trade Kareem for a #3 WR or Starting caliber DT (We’ve done plenty to make this a good defense- make it work Joe).

We haven’t seen 30-40 times of Chubb and Hunt in the run and pass game with Jacoby yet.   And each can mask a few weaknesses we may have with Jacoby, our Center or are lack of multiple downfield threats. 

Joe Woods runs way too passive of a scheme for the talent assembled... This team is built to be aggressive.. Joe Woods is namby pamby pussy defense... It's way too soft for my liking... He has NO NORE EXCUSES!!

[Kvoethe]

 

 

[gumby73]

Pocic/Forbes(LG)/RT Hudson took all the snaps with Brissett at 33.. Teller left RG at 16 snaps..

The Bears starting OL took all 30 snaps with Fields... Score 21-0 

3 preseason games later.. No sight of a browns starting OL... ya, I'm nervously anxious 

[tiamat63]

23 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Pocic at Guard - means Bitonio at Right tackle.  He played there I want to say 3/4 years ago briefly.  All of this means Conklin isn’t ready.  So the bigger question if I didn’t create more questions with the above- who is on First? I mean who plays Center?

ride or die now at this point I guess with Pocic at Center. 

It was just more of a random thought, not my belief that the Oline needs reshuffled.   Ride or die with Pocic at center indeed.

 

22 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

He didn't seem to do well at OG in Seattle, which is how he ended back at center. 

I don't even want to think what happens if Pocic gets hurt. 

I honestly hadn't checked if he saw snaps at guard in Seattle.  But you're saying he has and it was not good?  Well... so much for that idea.

 

15 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

I know we have needs but I’m not ready to trade Kareem for a #3 WR or Starting caliber DT (We’ve done plenty to make this a good defense- make it work Joe).

We haven’t seen 30-40 times of Chubb and Hunt in the run and pass game with Jacoby yet.   And each can mask a few weaknesses we may have with Jacoby, our Center or are lack of multiple downfield threats. 

 

We have the deepest RB room in the NFL.  Not 1, 2, 3, 4... but 5 deep.  The 5th including John Kelley, who could run for 1000 yards behind a healthy Oline similar to the Browns.   It's such a luxury that there is no point to keep a position group, especially one with such a specific value and shelf life, at such a surplus.   Trading Kareem for any starting caliber IDL would be the wise thing to do.

Because when you get down to it, you want a great defense.  And this team has thrown 1 year stop gap contracts at IDL the previous two seasons. Unfortunately the teams who are most going to exploit this front office for being so dismissive and cheap are our 2 main division rivals.   Want to consistently challenge for the AFCN crown? Can't be weak up the middle... and this team has been that for some time.

[Flugel]

8 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

I know we have needs but I’m not ready to trade Kareem for a #3 WR or Starting caliber DT (We’ve done plenty to make this a good defense- make it work Joe).

We haven’t seen 30-40 times of Chubb and Hunt in the run and pass game with Jacoby yet.   And each can mask a few weaknesses we may have with Jacoby, our Center or are lack of multiple downfield threats. 

I'd like to know - when we are going to see both Chubb and Hunt in at the same time?   Putting a FB on the field in lieu of one of those guys seems like very outdated football man.  We're replacing a legitimate attack piece for a pawn when we do that.  That doesn't challenge LBers - it excites them.  With those 2 guys in why not give Felton a chance in the slot instead to go with DPJ and Cooper?  Or, we could just serial kill another drive with Schwartz instead of anyone else. 

IMO Pittsburgh didn't have a good Oline in 2021; but that didn't stop them from finding ways to make rookie RB Najee Harris effective.  Aside from a moderate 1200 yards rushing (3.9 yds per carry) he caught 74 passes.  It's a version of ball control offense that acknowledges another way to get him past trouble at the line of scrimmage and into passing game mismatches vrs LBers in the flats, hook zones/gray areas. 

Like Indy Infante showed us in 1986 (1 year after both Mack and Byner rushed for over 1000 yards apiece), the RBs combined for 122 receptions in a different form of ball control offense.  One may question why do that with a good Oline in tandem with what Mack and Byner just accomplished on the ground?  While Kosar's lack of mobility was inviting the intrigue to blitz - the running game was inviting overload in the box.  Infante decided to spread defenses out horizontally, challenge the LBers and dictate who's in charge.  This made for some mentally and physically exhausted LBers.  Here was the distribution of receptions among the RBs: Herman Fontenot 47, Earnest Byner 37, Kevin Mack 28, Curtis Dickey 10. All that ball control on offense gave our defense the rest and fresh legs they needed to finish the year #1 against the run.  In the process, this team improved to 12-4 in 1986 from 8-8 (in spite of the sad and untimely death of Safety Don Rogers in June of 86). 

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

I'd like to know - when we are going to see both Chubb and Hunt in at the same time?   Putting a FB on the field in lieu of one of those guys seems like very outdated football man.  We're replacing a legitimate attack piece for a pawn when we do that.  That doesn't challenge LBers - it excites them.  With those 2 guys in why not give Felton a chance in the slot instead to go with DPJ and Cooper?  Or, we could just serial kill another drive with Schwartz instead of anyone else. 

IMO Pittsburgh didn't have a good Oline in 2021; but that didn't stop them from finding ways to make rookie RB Najee Harris effective.  Aside from a moderate 1200 yards rushing (3.9 yds per carry) he caught 74 passes.  It's a version of ball control offense that acknowledges another way to get him past trouble at the line of scrimmage and into passing game mismatches vrs LBers in the flats, hook zones/gray areas. 

Like Indy Infante showed us in 1986 (1 year after both Mack and Byner rushed for over 1000 yards apiece), the RBs combined for 122 receptions in a different form of ball control offense.  One may question why do that with a good Oline in tandem with what Mack and Byner just accomplished on the ground?  While Kosar's lack of mobility was inviting the intrigue to blitz - the running game was inviting overload in the box.  Infante decided to spread defenses out horizontally, challenge the LBers and dictate who's in charge.  This made for some mentally and physically exhausted LBers.  Here was the distribution of receptions among the RBs: Herman Fontenot 47, Earnest Byner 37, Kevin Mack 28, Curtis Dickey 10. All that ball control on offense gave our defense the rest and fresh legs they needed to finish the year #1 against the run.  In the process, this team improved to 12-4 in 1986 from 8-8 (in spite of the sad and untimely death of Safety Don Rogers in June of 86). 

Great history revisit. 
 

Does anyone feel there is a liability with Chubb and Hunt on the field at the same time?

Blitz pickup? 

Lead blocking? 

Catching the football out of the backfield?

maybe we’d like to keep one fresh while the other waits? (Isn’t that why we have Johnson and/or Ford)

Are we so hell bent on certain personnel packages?

Im searching too…

 

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

I'd like to know - when we are going to see both Chubb and Hunt in at the same time?   Putting a FB on the field in lieu of one of those guys seems like very outdated football man.  We're replacing a legitimate attack piece for a pawn when we do that.  That doesn't challenge LBers - it excites them.  With those 2 guys in why not give Felton a chance in the slot instead to go with DPJ and Cooper?  Or, we could just serial kill another drive with Schwartz instead of anyone else. 

IMO Pittsburgh didn't have a good Oline in 2021; but that didn't stop them from finding ways to make rookie RB Najee Harris effective.  Aside from a moderate 1200 yards rushing (3.9 yds per carry) he caught 74 passes.  It's a version of ball control offense that acknowledges another way to get him past trouble at the line of scrimmage and into passing game mismatches vrs LBers in the flats, hook zones/gray areas. 

Like Indy Infante showed us in 1986 (1 year after both Mack and Byner rushed for over 1000 yards apiece), the RBs combined for 122 receptions in a different form of ball control offense.  One may question why do that with a good Oline in tandem with what Mack and Byner just accomplished on the ground?  While Kosar's lack of mobility was inviting the intrigue to blitz - the running game was inviting overload in the box.  Infante decided to spread defenses out horizontally, challenge the LBers and dictate who's in charge.  This made for some mentally and physically exhausted LBers.  Here was the distribution of receptions among the RBs: Herman Fontenot 47, Earnest Byner 37, Kevin Mack 28, Curtis Dickey 10. All that ball control on offense gave our defense the rest and fresh legs they needed to finish the year #1 against the run.  In the process, this team improved to 12-4 in 1986 from 8-8 (in spite of the sad and untimely death of Safety Don Rogers in June of 86). 

In order 

- Split back ball (without a 1 back) dates back to the 80's. So it seems a bit silly to call using a true lead  "outdated".    I can't speak for LB's, but I can tell you as a DB and saw time at the Star (4th man in a 44), I'd rather take on Kareem in the hole than a 250lb Johnny Stanton.  

It also speaks to wear and tear. If you want both Chubb and Hunt to be a fresh as possible late season, having Hunt as a lead will only take tread off those tires. LBs and upbacks are running backs without the ball.  

And the 80s isn't a great frame of reference either. Linebackers are twice as athletic now. So unless you possess elite change of direction and acceleration, making a halfback a primary component in the passing game is rare. Example, CMC, Kamara and Eckler.   The panthers offense would stall for long periods when teams found ways to ice McCaffrey, because of Carolina's inability to exploit all other areas of the field (especially vertical) they had no counter.

- Felton is getting looks. It's up to the coaching staff and Jacoby to make sure they get the most of him. 

- Najee' was effective through volume.  He was also a fresh legged rookie. I say 'was', because handing any RB 400 touches a season is going to turn them into an old man very fast.  DeMarco Murray, Henry, CMC, Kamara without Breesy.  All high volume backs that experienced career changing injuries after a few high touch seasons.  NFL means Not For Long when you're getting that sort of workload.  I would invite the Steelers to do the same this season. They invested a 1st round pick into a RB and his hips will be shot by the time it would come around to his 2nd contract with that sort of contact running style.   

Ball control is a net positive when you can also combine it with explosive plays.  Otherwise it's an admission your offense is flawed and working to mask those flaws while also hoping your defense makes stand after stand.  

There's more than one way to skin a cat by playing ball control.  And I'm not sure the Browns offense or  defense is at a point where they can afford to go full turtle mode. 

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

I'd like to know - when we are going to see both Chubb and Hunt in at the same time?   Putting a FB on the field in lieu of one of those guys seems like very outdated football man.  We're replacing a legitimate attack piece for a pawn when we do that.  That doesn't challenge LBers - it excites them.  With those 2 guys in why not give Felton a chance in the slot instead to go with DPJ and Cooper?  Or, we could just serial kill another drive with Schwartz instead of anyone else. 

IMO Pittsburgh didn't have a good Oline in 2021; but that didn't stop them from finding ways to make rookie RB Najee Harris effective.  Aside from a moderate 1200 yards rushing (3.9 yds per carry) he caught 74 passes.  It's a version of ball control offense that acknowledges another way to get him past trouble at the line of scrimmage and into passing game mismatches vrs LBers in the flats, hook zones/gray areas. 

Like Indy Infante showed us in 1986 (1 year after both Mack and Byner rushed for over 1000 yards apiece), the RBs combined for 122 receptions in a different form of ball control offense.  One may question why do that with a good Oline in tandem with what Mack and Byner just accomplished on the ground?  While Kosar's lack of mobility was inviting the intrigue to blitz - the running game was inviting overload in the box.  Infante decided to spread defenses out horizontally, challenge the LBers and dictate who's in charge.  This made for some mentally and physically exhausted LBers.  Here was the distribution of receptions among the RBs: Herman Fontenot 47, Earnest Byner 37, Kevin Mack 28, Curtis Dickey 10. All that ball control on offense gave our defense the rest and fresh legs they needed to finish the year #1 against the run.  In the process, this team improved to 12-4 in 1986 from 8-8 (in spite of the sad and untimely death of Safety Don Rogers in June of 86). 

Shitpantski is too chickenshit to be that creative and aggressive... He's too conservative for my liking...

[SdBacker80]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

In order 

- Split back ball (without a 1 back) dates back to the 80's. So it seems a bit silly to call using a true lead  "outdated".    I can't speak for LB's, but I can tell you as a DB and saw time at the Star (4th man in a 44), I'd rather take on Kareem in the hole than a 250lb Johnny Stanton.  

It also speaks to wear and tear. If you want both Chubb and Hunt to be a fresh as possible late season, having Hunt as a lead will only take tread off those tires. LBs and upbacks are running backs without the ball.  

And the 80s isn't a great frame of reference either. Linebackers are twice as athletic now. So unless you possess elite change of direction and acceleration, making a halfback a primary component in the passing game is rare. Example, CMC, Kamara and Eckler.   The panthers offense would stall for long periods when teams found ways to ice McCaffrey, because of Carolina's inability to exploit all other areas of the field (especially vertical) they had no counter.

- Felton is getting looks. It's up to the coaching staff and Jacoby to make sure they get the most of him. 

- Najee' was effective through volume.  He was also a fresh legged rookie. I say 'was', because handing any RB 400 touches a season is going to turn them into an old man very fast.  DeMarco Murray, Henry, CMC, Kamara without Breesy.  All high volume backs that experienced career changing injuries after a few high touch seasons.  NFL means Not For Long when you're getting that sort of workload.  I would invite the Steelers to do the same this season. They invested a 1st round pick into a RB and his hips will be shot by the time it would come around to his 2nd contract with that sort of contact running style.   

Ball control is a net positive when you can also combine it with explosive plays.  Otherwise it's an admission your offense is flawed and working to mask those flaws while also hoping your defense makes stand after stand.  

There's more than one way to skin a cat by playing ball control.  And I'm not sure the Browns offense or  defense is at a point where they can afford to go full turtle mode. 

I don’t think anyone is saying why do we have Stanton on the roster, but I think I a lot of people are saying if Kevin wants to be “multiple” one of his favorite buzz words along with “work”. Can a package (not the entire offense) be devised where both backs are on the field?  Both have elite balls skills and playmaking ability.  I’d find something to get them on the field together in a package.  Is this too far off base????

If one or both get tired you throw DJohnson in the mix or Ford.  Are we not comfortable enough with those two- we are seemingly very willing to deal Hunt and feature either behind Chubb.  Are we saving Kareem for next season?  It appears the wear and tear this year will go on another roster and another team to manage.  
 

I don’t normally praise a Steeler but Najee had a good year considering the year Ben had.  You can say volume or you say getting the tough yards but I think he played a big role getting them to the playoffs. 

[TexasAg1969]

Replay of the game is on NFL Network 212 Direct TV today at 400PM EDT (3PM CDT). Recording to watch later since I play RB @3 our time.