Deshaun Watson returns: Some of QB's accusers actually planning to attend Browns-Texans game in Houston

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

They better take a long look at his mechanics and release.  The low throws could be from releasing the ball a split second late each time.  Some could also be from indecision or a lack of confidence at this point - but it's not something impossible to correct at all.

We'll see,...

I wouldn't worry.  People are gonna be hitting each other over the heads with cyber mallets in here because there's news about Baker.  That'll keep em all pre-occupied for the next few days...  

Tom...It's been my understanding that when passes dive to the ground that this may have been a by product of nervousness..See Donovan McNabb in the SB.. He was undoubtedly nervous and clutching the ball too hard there by causing passes to dive to the ground...  When you are nervous or have some inherent fear... You tend to press and grab things harder.. For example someone whose never ridden a roller coaster before will tend to grasp the safety bar harder...

[Flugel]

4 hours ago, nickers said:

Tom...It's been my understanding that when passes dive to the ground that this may have been a by product of nervousness..See Donovan McNabb in the SB.. He was undoubtedly nervous and clutching the ball too hard there by causing passes to dive to the ground...  When you are nervous or have some inherent fear... You tend to press and grab things harder.. For example someone whose never ridden a roller coaster before will tend to grasp the safety bar harder...

Yeah, that's a good point I wouldn't rule out.  Nerves probably play into this quite a bit Nicks.

[Orion]

5 hours ago, nickers said:

Tom...It's been my understanding that when passes dive to the ground that this may have been a by product of nervousness..See Donovan McNabb in the SB.. He was undoubtedly nervous and clutching the ball too hard there by causing passes to dive to the ground...  When you are nervous or have some inherent fear... You tend to press and grab things harder.. For example someone whose never ridden a roller coaster before will tend to grasp the safety bar harder...

Most excellent post!   

I mean, what a position he was in.  Out of football for 2 years (with 'some' work in training camp, but not a lot since he wasn't going to be playing).  The mental stress he's been under for the last year or more.  Then a couple of weeks of practice (only one week getting starting reps).  Then he has to debut in Houston.  - Yes, Houston is playing like a laughing stock...like we used to....but their defensive front is nothing to laugh at.  They pressure the QB up there with the best of 'em.  

It's going to take a little time for the game to slow back down for him.  And so there's 5 games left in his 2022 preseason for the 2023 season for him to get back up to speed.

Now I'm making it seem as though he's the victim here, but only from the point of view of an individual having to play QB at a high level.  Did he make enough mistakes to deserve it?  I'll assume so.

He's going to have people hate him for life.  I read a Yahoo Sports article about a past Browns player who is composing a letter to send to Roger GoToHell telling him that Watson should be suspended from football forever.  And that he loves the Browns but he (and his daughter I think) have quit watching football and won't ever go back to watching the NFL because of him being allowed to come back and play.   Well, at least they're not moving to Canada over it.

[Canton Dawg]

I don’t get this “rust” thing everyone is talking about.

So DW plays what…5-6 games to knock the “rust” off, and he’s going to be ready to go in 2023 after no NFL games for 6 months?

With that mindset, one would think that the aforementioned “rust” would be visible again when the NFL season kicks off again this summer.

[syd]

On 12/5/2022 at 6:01 PM, D Bone said:

If it came out of my wallet, he would not be here. A player's pay check is part of his legacy whether they like it or not. He will always be tied to the most ridiculous contract in sports history and if he doesn't live up to it on the field, it will only be highlighted even more.

with  all the gambling money coming in watsons contract will be the norm

[Dutch Oven]

49 minutes ago, Canton Dawg said:

I don’t get this “rust” thing everyone is talking about.

So DW plays what…5-6 games to knock the “rust” off, and he’s going to be ready to go in 2023 after no NFL games for 6 months?

With that mindset, one would think that the aforementioned “rust” would be visible again when the NFL season kicks off again this summer.

I can totally understand that the idea that a player who hasn't played a real game in almost two full calendar years having rust is a really difficult concept to grasp. 

[Canton Dawg]

9 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I can totally understand that the idea that a player who hasn't played a real game in almost two full calendar years having rust is a really difficult concept to grasp. 

Yes, one would think he would at least pick up a football with one of his friends and go outside and toss the football around for a few minutes (preferably not at each others feet).

And you didn’t explain how that rust disappears between the months of January to July?

Please enlighten me.

[Dutch Oven]

3 minutes ago, Canton Dawg said:

Yes, one would think he would at least pick up a football with one of his friends and go outside and toss the football around for a few minutes (preferably not at each others feet).

And you didn’t explain how that rust disappears between the months of January to July?

Please enlighten me.

Picking up a football and going to have a catch with his friends is good simulation for playing football at the highest level on the planet?

Yeah, I think I'll pass on discussing this subject any more with you. 

[nickers]

53 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Picking up a football and going to have a catch with his friends is good simulation for playing football at the highest level on the planet?

Yeah, I think I'll pass on discussing this subject any more with you. 

It's responses like this that shows the rest of the world what an over bloated blow hard you are...  The guy asked a simple question and you basically called the guy a retard without calling him a retard... It's moments like this that tells me no one should ever take you seriously because it just seems like everything is just a joke to you... And your next response will be just another stupid ass laugh emoji. Not only are you not a cool person.. You are predictable... Enjoy your arrogance...

[Canton Dawg]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

Picking up a football and going to have a catch with his friends is good simulation for playing football at the highest level on the planet?

Yeah, I think I'll pass on discussing this subject any more with you. 

It was a rhetorical question, and really doesn’t need a response.

I’m merely pointing out the fact that we’re giving DW reps to knock off the rust, only to have him sit during the offseason so he can get rusty again. 🤔

[Dutch Oven]

10 hours ago, nickers said:

It's responses like this that shows the rest of the world what an over bloated blow hard you are...  The guy asked a simple question and you basically called the guy a retard without calling him a retard... It's moments like this that tells me no one should ever take you seriously because it just seems like everything is just a joke to you... And your next response will be just another stupid ass laugh emoji. Not only are you not a cool person.. You are predictable... Enjoy your arrogance...

I absolutely did not, and would not, call Canton Dawg a "retard".

I find it a complete waste of time arguing a point with someone who has already 100% made up their mind about a situation. It's nothing personal towards Canton Dawg, who I can and will discuss many topics willingly. This one, though, is pointless. 

If I was ever going to call someone a "retard", I would reserve that for someone who repeatedly deserves it, like you. 

Now here's a stupid ass laugh emoji, nickers. Enjoy. 😂

[nickers]

29 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I absolutely did not, and would not, call Canton Dawg a "retard".

I find it a complete waste of time arguing a point with someone who has already 100% made up their mind about a situation. It's nothing personal towards Canton Dawg, who I can and will discuss many topics willingly. This one, though, is pointless. 

If I was ever going to call someone a "retard", I would reserve that for someone who repeatedly deserves it, like you. 

Now here's a stupid ass laugh emoji, nickers. Enjoy. 😂

🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕

[FY56]

21 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I can totally understand that the idea that a player who hasn't played a real game in almost two full calendar years having rust is a really difficult concept to grasp. 

Right, the rust factor. Whatever helps make you relax.

There have been multiple times when backup QB's who have never played a down come in when called upon and have played admirably. Where is their rust? 

Watson is elite is he not? He aint supposed to have "rust".

The Rust Factor

Every single conversation about DW4 starts with the exact phrase or some variation of "shaking off the rust".

I think it's difficult to define exactly what "rust" encompasses when talking about it. But I would say it's an overall definition of being out of sync and slow - mechanically, mentally and physically.

So what examples in football history really drive this narrative? I decided to look at some examples to compare to the time missed by Deshuan. But there is no perfect comparison.

The Deshaun Watson situation is unlike any other in the history of the game. He's not coming off of an injury, so his practice and workout regimen was never interrupted. The time away from the game was in the prime of his career, wheras most other examples are players in the later stages.

I think we could all agree that coming off an injury is pretty difficult and should be more reason to expect the dreaded "rust". So let's look at some QB's that missed a long period of time due to injury:

Joe Montana - This is the closest comparison to Deshaun as far as time missed. Joe Montana almost missed a full two seasons. He missed the entirety of the 1991 season due to injury, came back in 1992 but only played in 1 game. When he returned in 1993 it was with the Chiefs, so a new team just like DW4. Joe had all of training camp and preseason with no interruption before week 1, so you have to consider that when comparing to Watson. However, missing two years because of injuries, and then returning to football clearly in the twilight of your career - it would be completely understandable if Joe had a lot of rust to shake off.

In game 1, after missing almost two whole seasons, he was so rusty that he only completed 67% of his passes, for 246 yards and 3 TD's. Joe missed multiple games throughout that season due to injury and age catching up with him. But even in the twilight of his career, rust wasn't a factor when he returned.

Peyton Manning - Missed one full season in 2011 as we all know because of a neck injury. Another great QB that got injured and moved on to another team in the late stage of his career. So how did Peyton deal with all the rust he had to shake off in Denver in his return? He completed 73% of his passes for 253 yards and 2 TD's. Peyton went on that season to have a typical Peyton Manning season, throwing for 4600 yards, 37 TD with only 11 INT.

Tom Brady - Essentially missed a full season in 2008 being injured early in game 1. Not the best comparison because he stayed on the same team. But after a missing a full season he came back the next season with no rust - 73%, 378 yds, 2 TD's, 1 INT in game 1 of 2009.

WHERE IS ALL THE RUST?

[syd]

41 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I absolutely did not, and would not, call Canton Dawg a "retard".

I find it a complete waste of time arguing a point with someone who has already 100% made up their mind about a situation. It's nothing personal towards Canton Dawg, who I can and will discuss many topics willingly. This one, though, is pointless. 

If I was ever going to call someone a "retard", I would reserve that for someone who repeatedly deserves it, like you. 

Now here's a stupid ass laugh emoji, nickers. Enjoy. 😂

I will hey Canton you are  a retard

[syd]

watson just needs to trust what his body can do so he doesnt second guess himself

[Canton Dawg]

27 minutes ago, syd said:

I will hey Canton you are  a retard

WTF? Fuck?

[nickers]

18 minutes ago, Canton Dawg said:

WTF? Fuck?

He's probably hittin' the sauce again...

[Dutch Oven]

44 minutes ago, syd said:

I will hey Canton you are  a retard

 

[syd]

20 minutes ago, Canton Dawg said:

WTF? Fuck?

hahaha I was just fucking around it was a back handed smacking of nickers

[Canton Dawg]

35 minutes ago, syd said:

hahaha I was just fucking around it was a back handed smacking of nickers

I know, I still like the name!

[Canton Dawg]

40 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

 

 

[gumby73]

On 12/6/2022 at 7:31 AM, Flugel said:

However, a lot of his bounce passes and/or ankle high throws on Sunday weren't intended throw-aways.  I'm okay with some rust; but this seemed excessive to the extent he lost all his mechanics and fundamentals aside from the re-adjustment to the speed of the game.  You brought up an interesting point about the ball coming out of his hands nose diving.  Looks to me like he's waiting a split second longer to let go of the ball during his throwing motion. It's a fine line the coaching staff is going to have to take a look at to help him.  Some of that could a temporary lack of confidence in himself or with his decision within a progression or a little bit of both.  I can't say without access to film.  

I'd say ya nailed it Flug..

best guy to ask & agrees with ya

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/deshaun-watson-eager-for-second-start-after-identifying-fixes-from-de

Watson chalked those errors up to technique and believes they can be corrected as he rekindles the muscle memory required to make throws from any part of the field.

"It was just more mechanics, just my base, my shoulder plane and my shoulder leverage and keeping that up high," Watson said as he mimicked his throwing shoulder motion. "It was just all fundamentals with that."

On 12/7/2022 at 2:28 PM, nickers said:

Tom...It's been my understanding that when passes dive to the ground that this may have been a by product of nervousness..See Donovan McNabb in the SB.. He was undoubtedly nervous and clutching the ball too hard there by causing passes to dive to the ground...  When you are nervous or have some inherent fear... You tend to press and grab things harder.. 

Good reference Nick...

Wills & Froholdt need to step their game up before this Bengals game.. It was bad on tape in Houston 🥺

 just finished watching the all 22...Watson seemed to really struggle when he saw pressure coming.. He sure could have over-gripped at least 5 passes  

[syd]

2 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

I know, I still like the name!

i  knew you know better from me

[Flugel]

9 hours ago, gumby73 said:

I'd say ya nailed it Flug..

best guy to ask & agrees with ya

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/deshaun-watson-eager-for-second-start-after-identifying-fixes-from-de

Watson chalked those errors up to technique and believes they can be corrected as he rekindles the muscle memory required to make throws from any part of the field.

"It was just more mechanics, just my base, my shoulder plane and my shoulder leverage and keeping that up high," Watson said as he mimicked his throwing shoulder motion. "It was just all fundamentals with that."

Good reference Nick...

Wills & Froholdt need to step their game up before this Bengals game.. It was bad on tape in Houston 🥺

 just finished watching the all 22...Watson seemed to really struggle when he saw pressure coming.. He sure could have over-gripped at least 5 passes  

Thanks Gumbs!  Wills is becoming a huge concern this year.  Last year, he got pardoned via the early high ankle sprain but it looked like it often became an excuse to sand bag later in the year.  Some of this is effort.  If you're on offense and the only advantage you have as an OL to WIN position up front is KNOWING THE SNAP COUNT - he shouldn't be getting beat nearly as frequently right out of stance as he does. Other plays, he stops right after initial contact.

I criticized him earlier this year for this stuff; and he came back the next game with way more effort and hustle.  I don't have access to the all 22; but I know Callahan and his assistant has the ideal technology to see the same stuff and get in his ear about it.  The rip move he's really vulnerable to has been around forever.  Let's hope Callahan riles him up this week for a different outcome.   We can only hope right? 

[Dutch Oven]

14 hours ago, Flugel said:

Wills is becoming a huge concern this year.

Is it becoming obvious that he's just not a Left Tackle, and should go back to RT next season? Or should the Browns move on from his completely? 

[Flugel]

17 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Is it becoming obvious that he's just not a Left Tackle, and should go back to RT next season? Or should the Browns move on from his completely? 

2 good questions Dutch.  I thought he had a pretty good rookie year; but I haven't seen the same guy since he somewhat proved himself.  The specific things I'm seeing is him standing and watching after initial contact went good or bad on run plays; and not getting off the ball/out of stance in time to be effective. Joe Thomas faced a lot of very quick fast twitchies off the edge in multiple Pro Bowl seasons; but he always won the very first step securing his ability to win position for the run or pass pro.  His biggest challenge IMO wasn't T.Suggs like a lot of people think - it was his teammate Elvis Dumervil (all 5'11" of him).  Talk about a pad height leverage advantage. Joe Thomas still won a majority of those battles because he's always first to contact and position which worked well in tandem with superior fundamentals.  When Wills struggles it's because he isn't doing any of those things with very much consistency, if at all.

In pass protection, opponents are lining up on his outside shoulder and threating a blitz to his inside (the gap between him and Bitonio).  There's a few things they know.  Wills is really vulnerable to the rip move. The edge rusher on his outside eye/shoulder can beat him to his inside with that move made even easier when Wills is slow getting out of his stance.  This problem also sets up a vulnerability to the blitz because now he's anticipating the rip again; and then they surprise him with a swim move outside and an untouched blitzer inside.  In a lot of the pass protections - anytime someone lines up head up or inside shoulder/gap on Bitonio; that's too close to the QB to justify him helping what's on anything to left/outside of the LG spot.  Another option is to go unbalanced or use an extra lineman at TE like they were doing with Dunn earlier in the year when Conklin was out.  They lined him up to the right of RT Hudson, which also gave him eligibility as a TE.  Only they would do this on the left/blind side to help out Wills.

They can do other protections like a reach and hinge.  This is where all 1st steps on the OL are to the playside but the backside immediately hinges off (looking like a cup protection on that side of the line). The design is often to sell a run so the playside part of the line usually makes immediate contact in the area they have reached/over to while the QB's job is to get rid of the ball pretty quick.  This is also done without hinging off the backside.  All these protections Wills can do if he wants to which requires a little giddy-up getting out of that stance. 

The other protections they do, he needs to work at it and/or be open to coaching.  Not to bring up a subject I wish we'd end in here; but one of the things that soured a lot of people on Baker after he had some success as a rookie was comments he made leading people to believe he wasn't open to coaching.  Does Wills have the same mindset?  Again, he had a promising rookie year.  We judge a lot of our players on whether or not they're tapping upside or they're too content with the rear view mirror.  For example, the question about RT after Conklin leaves might be who looks like a better starter there between Wills and the much improved Hudson?  Who does the little things better?  Who is more open to coaching?  Who will get out of their stance quicker?  Who will give effort beyond the initial contact?  Or, how about who FREAKIN wants it more?  

My guess is Andrew Berry will keep him here because that was his 1st pick; and he's not one that likes to part with his decisions.  On top of that, we don't have a 1st round pick for an elite LT prospect that could help us right away.  As far as what I wish we'd do?  Adversity is slapping him upside the head for all to see; and I want to see how he responds to it over the final 5 games to see if he can be more than the just the first syllable of asset... 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Flugel
Typos

[nickers]

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

2 good questions Dutch.  I thought he had a pretty good rookie year; but I haven't seen the same guy since he somewhat proved himself.  The specific things I'm seeing is him standing and watching after initial contact went good or bad on run plays; and not getting off the ball/out of stance in time to be effective. Joe Thomas faced a lot of very quick fast twitchies off the edge in multiple Pro Bowl seasons; but he always won the very first step securing his ability to win position for the run or pass pro.  His biggest challenge IMO wasn't T.Suggs like a lot of people think - it was his teammate Elvis Dumervil (all 5'11" of him).  Talk about a pad height leverage advantage. Joe Thomas still won a majority of those battles because he's always first to contact and position which worked well in tandem with superior fundamentals.  When Wills struggles it's because he isn't doing any of those things with very much consistency, if at all.

In pass protection, opponents are lining up on his outside shoulder and threating a blitz to his inside (the gap between him and Bitonio).  There's a few things they know.  Wills is really vulnerable to the rip move. The edge rusher on his outside eye/shoulder can beat him to his inside with that move made even easier when Wills is slow getting out of his stance.  This problem also sets up a vulnerability to the blitz because now he's anticipating the rip again; and then they surprise him with a swim move outside and an untouched blitzer inside.  In a lot of the pass protections - anytime someone lines up head up or inside shoulder/gap on Bitonio; that's too close to the QB to justify him helping what's on anything to left/outside of the LG spot.  Another option is to go unbalanced or use an extra lineman at TE like they were doing with Dunn earlier in the year when Conklin was out.  They lined him up to the right of RT Hudson, which also gave him eligibility as a TE.  Only they would do this on the left/blind side to help out Wills.

They can do other protections like a reach and hinge.  This is where all 1st steps on the OL are to the playside but the backside immediately hinges off (looking like a cup protection on that side of the line). The design is often to sell a run so the playside part of the line usually makes immediate contact in the area they have reached/over to while the QB's job is to get rid of the ball pretty quick.  This is also done without hinging off the backside.  All these protections Wills can do if he wants to which requires a little giddy-up getting out of that stance. 

The other protections they do, he needs to work at it and/or be open to coaching.  Not to bring up a subject I wish we'd end in here; but one of the things that soured a lot of people on Baker after he had some success as a rookie was comments he made leading people to believe he wasn't open to coaching.  Does Wills have the same mindset?  Again, he had a promising rookie year.  We judge a lot of our players on whether or not they're tapping upside or they're too content with the rear view mirror.  For example, the question about RT after Conklin leaves might be who looks like a better starter there between Wills and and the much improved Hudson?  Who does the little things better?  Who is more open to coaching?  Who will get out of their stance quicker?  Who will give effort beyond the initial contact?  Or, how about who FREAKIN wants it more?  

My Andrew Berry will keep him here because that was his 1st pick and he's not one that likes to part with his decisions.  On top of that, we don't have a 1st round pick for an elite LT prospect that could help us right away.  As far as what I wish we'd do?  Adversity is slapping him upside the head for all to see; and I want to see how he responds to it over the final 5 games to see if he can be more than the just the first syllable of asset... 

 

When I watch Wills.. Everything he does looks likes it in slow motion but real time if that makes any sense.. And not just slow off the snap but anything he's involved in looks like Maple syrup dripping down the side of a tree slow... He looks very hesitant and like you said... He just doesn't get that first step... I'm not sure moving him to RT is the answer either.. You would think having Callahan might ingrain something in him but by all accounts thus far... Apparently not...