Tale of the Tape - Browns vs Ravens

[Orion]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:44 PM, Kvoethe said:

 

Wtf kevin does this mean??

 

Well, it means that for Jacoby the playbook is smaller.  There are fewer things that he does well.  For Watson, the playbook is bigger.  There's a lot more plays to choose from.

[tiamat63]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:44 PM, Kvoethe said:

 

Wtf kevin does this mean??

 

 Let me try to tackle this one while I look over some of the spreads for the upcoming games.

 

 Under Stef, from Minnesota to CLE, he is a coach versed deeply in the intricacies and philosophy of the outside zone running game.   The largest little caveat to that, is focusing on a running game that begins from under center.   With the advent of the RPO and pre-snap sight adjustments in the NFL, I mentioned Watson's ability brings another foundational type piece that this team AND coaching staff is going to take finding their call percentage and tendency with - the split zone RPO game from the gun.   But those designs are almost exclusively based on the vertical zone running game. 

 So it's taking a coach, who has tailored his offense and personnel one way, and giving him a QB who has a great amount of production in a young and short career, but with the strongest part of his game being a bit different than what Stef has done for so long.   It's a bit of a 'learning process', for lack of a better phrase, for both of them.  

 Stef has already incorporated those types of calls, we saw it several times last night with Deshaun on the read and I think one RPO?   But also this means Deshaun is going to have to, for his benefit and the benefit of the offense as a whole whether he realizes it or not, learn how to efficiently work from under center in a wide zone running scheme and the natural passing designs built off of that foundation.

 

 So we have a coaching staff who has been forced to call and design games a certain way the last 2 & 1/2 years, but now have a weapon where they won't have to be as limited or 'structured' in their vertical passing game, with more time for a proper development and deployment.  

 

Stef isn't the most articulate, and there's a lot to unpack from that type of quote.  So don't completely take it at face value. 

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

it isn't a matter of "male cheerleader", it's a matter of facts.

Baker, after week 14, has a higher qb rating than watson.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/deshaun-watson-or-baker-mayfield-who-is-ranked-higher-in-nfl-quarterback-power-rankings-after-week-14/ar-AA15jcvn

btw, both watson and Brissett have tremendous advantage with Amari Cooper. Two threads of Baker bashing, and some guys on here can't handle telling facts about Baker because "he's no longer with the team".

Right.

McVay can't teach watson how to have character and love the game.

That is watson's downfall, off the field.

He will never be the face of the frachise. For a lot of folks, whether or not he succeeds with the Browns

won't matter as much as it would have, if the Browns had a true leader at qb.

 

 

 

I was talking about the guy having a panic attack in the Mayfield thread that said my post was "IDIOTIC" after I compared Baker Mayfield to Colt McCoy.  They're both currently employed to fill in for injured starters. If he can last as long as Colt McCoy has (as a fill-in for injured starter) - it'll be a compliment. I'm not re-writing that post in this thread Cal.  

Watson WON a National Championship by beating Ohio State by about 28 or 35 points in the playoffs before beating Alabama in the National Championship.  If that's a bad leader that looks like a guy who HATES football to you - you have some strange evaluation criteria.   Then in Houston, he led them to the playoffs twice and made 3 Pro Bowls (w/elite numbers).  The last year he had the highest passer rating in the AFC.  That didn't look like a guy that hated what he was doing either.  The reason he wanted to part ways was because he didn't feel like Houston was nearly as passionate about winning as he was.  

 

 

[syd]

3 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

McVay can't teach watson how to have character and love the game

WTF where do you come up with he doesnt love the game 0.k we get it you do not like watson but you dont need to make shit up

[Dutch Oven]

5 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

it isn't a matter of "male cheerleader", it's a matter of facts.

Baker, after week 14, has a higher qb rating than watson.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/deshaun-watson-or-baker-mayfield-who-is-ranked-higher-in-nfl-quarterback-power-rankings-after-week-14/ar-AA15jcvn

btw, both watson and Brissett have tremendous advantage with Amari Cooper. Two threads of Baker bashing, and some guys on here can't handle telling facts about Baker because "he's no longer with the team".

Right.

McVay can't teach watson how to have character and love the game.

That is watson's downfall, off the field.

He will never be the face of the frachise. For a lot of folks, whether or not he succeeds with the Browns

won't matter as much as it would have, if the Browns had a true leader at qb.

 

Nothing, and I mean nothing, beats Cheesecake Cal trying to tell us that "its a matter of facts" that Baker is better than Watson by posting an article where some random guy lists Watson ahead of Baker in his power rankings. 🤣

[calfoxwc]

5 hours ago, Flugel said:

I was talking about the guy having a panic attack in the Mayfield thread that said my post was "IDIOTIC" after I compared Baker Mayfield to Colt McCoy.  They're both currently employed to fill in for injured starters. If he can last as long as Colt McCoy has (as a fill-in for injured starter) - it'll be a compliment. I'm not re-writing that post in this thread Cal.  

Watson WON a National Championship by beating Ohio State by about 28 or 35 points in the playoffs before beating Alabama in the National Championship.  If that's a bad leader that looks like a guy who HATES football to you - you have some strange evaluation criteria.   Then in Houston, he led them to the playoffs twice and made 3 Pro Bowls (w/elite numbers).  The last year he had the highest passer rating in the AFC.  That didn't look like a guy that hated what he was doing either.  The reason he wanted to part ways was because he didn't feel like Houston was nearly as passionate about winning as he was.  

 

 

ah, the other thread. OK.

If you love the game, you don't spend all your time offending 66-69? women.

Yes, he is tremendously talented physically. But he ruined his own career during and after that time.

 

[calfoxwc]

3 hours ago, syd said:

WTF where do you come up with he doesnt love the game 0.k we get it you do not like watson but you dont need to make shit up

I say that based on how he offended 66-69 women on his off time.

not studying the other team. If you call that a leader, I feel sorry for you.

I couldn't care less about teflon watson - except the browns made that

stupid trade for him. If you love the game, you don't offend 66-69 ? women sexually.

   Obviously, I didn't make it up. This is the face of the browns franchise, like it or not.

https://www.relentless.love › blog › 2022 › 6 › 14 › deshaun-watson-is-a-scumbag-he-should-never-play-football-again

Deshaun Watson is a Scumbag. He Should Never Play Football Again.

Watson now faces a 24th suit from a woman accusing him of improper behavior at best and sexual assault at worst. According to a recent New York Times report authored by Jenny Vrentas, Watson met with at least 66 women for massages over a 17-month period and was enabled by the Texans organization with templated nondisclosure agreements and reservations at a lavish Houston hotel in the process.

[calfoxwc]

5 hours ago, Flugel said:

The reason he wanted to part ways was because he didn't feel like Houston was nearly as passionate about winning as he was.  

winning a happy ending, maybe. You have the excellent memory, Mr. Flugels, you know what Baker accomplished in college, and with the Browns in 2020.

Here's some fantasy football team names referring to watson:

https://www.sportskeeda.com/nfl/news-40-best-deshaun-watson-inspired-fantasy-football-names

Here they are:

• Turn Down for Watson
• Watson the Other Side
• Deshaun of the Dead
• Deshaun In 60 Seconds
• Watson the Menu
• Massaging my Roster
• Upper Deshelon
• Deshaun Gotsome
• Dehand Whackson
• Deshaun Clemson
• Watsonder the Towel
• WatsOn, Whacks Off
• Deshaunorable Discharge
• Massaging the Truth
• DeSwan Waddleson
• Flex Offenders
• DeShauns Massage Emporium

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/deshaun-watson-snubbed-by-wife-of-texans-owner-in-houston-return/ar-AA14W8Cm

Deshaun Watson snubbed by wife of Texans owner in Houston return

Story by Jenna Lemoncelli • Dec 5

"In pregame videos, Hannah can be seen turning her back to Watson when he jogged across the field to share a half-hug and a handshake with McNair. The couple was standing with Watson’s current boss, Browns owner Jimmy Haslam. "

"Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson (left) as Hannah McNair (center) looks elsewhere on the field on Dec. 4, 2022.Twitter/Charles Robinson

Hannah stood on the field wearing a purple dress and matching shoes, which included the logos of the Houston Area Women’s Center — a facility serving local victims of sexual and domestic violence — as part of the NFL’s My Cause My Cleats campaign."

"In addition to Hannah, Watson received an icy reception from Houston fans, who showered their former quarterback with boos as the Browns defeated the Texans, 27-14."

*****************************************************

   Regardless, watson is a high caliber athlete - if he wins games wit the Browns, I'm happy for the players. But the disgrace will never end overall. That includes this loser ownership and front office.

 

[Orion]

2 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

Deshaun Watson is a Scumbag. He Should Never Play Football Again.

How 'bout baseball?  What if he could hit a curve ball?   Or basketball?  What if he could hit 3's with his eyes closed?  Would he be allowed to do that?  Is it just football?  Like, would he be allowed to run for President?  I mean, he hasn't incited an insurrection or anything, right?  

[syd]

3 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

say that based on how he offended 66-69 women on his off time.

so he can multi task so what what honestly if you hate the team so much go find a new one

[Flugel]

13 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

ah, the other thread. OK.

If you love the game, you don't spend all your time offending 66-69? women.

Yes, he is tremendously talented physically. But he ruined his own career during and after that time.

 

🤣 3 Pro Bowls and 2 playoff appearances says otherwise.  

[gumby73]

11 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

 

Here's some fantasy football team names referring to watson:

Here they are:

• Turn Down for Watson
• Watson the Other Side
• Deshaun of the Dead
• Deshaun In 60 Seconds
• Watson the Menu
• Massaging my Roster
• Upper Deshelon
• Deshaun Gotsome
• Dehand Whackson
• Deshaun Clemson
• Watsonder the Towel
• WatsOn, Whacks Off
• Deshaunorable Discharge
• Massaging the Truth
• DeSwan Waddleson
• Flex Offenders
• DeShauns Massage Emporium

 

 

         🏝️   

 

[calfoxwc]

6 hours ago, Flugel said:

🤣 3 Pro Bowls and 2 playoff appearances says otherwise.  

Actually, no, he has the physical talent bigtime - but his lack of playing time - says otherwise.

And, a lot of qb's would have done better with this wr that watson had for three years (DeAndre Hopkins):

• 3× First-team All-Pro (2017–2019)
• 2× Second-team All-Pro (2015, 2020)
• 5× Pro Bowl (2015, 2017–2020)
• NFL receiving touchdowns leader (2017)
• PFWA All-Rookie Team (2013)
• First-team All-ACC (2012)

Meanwhile, more to my point -

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35189366/questions-remain-deshaun-watson-debuts-browns-texans

"

ON MARCH 18, the Browns traded for Watson, sending the Texans three first-round draft picks in return. Cleveland then gave Watson a $230 million fully guaranteed deal, the richest contract in NFL history.

Donisha Greene, the director of community engagement for the Cleveland Rape Crisis Center, said her organization's phones immediately began ringing.

"It was really heartbreaking at times because you got your lifelong fans writing their notes and saying, 'I've been a Browns fan for 29 years, and this is the first season that I won't be participating in,' so they'd donate the cost of a season ticket," said Greene, who noted that the Cleveland Rape Crisis Center has raised more than $120,000 since March from people who said they were donating because of Watson. "It was a pretty powerful response, for sure."

"

Brenda Tracy has followed the Watson case closely. Tracy was raped by four men, including three Oregon State football players, in 1998. She now travels the country sharing her story in hopes of persuading coaches, athletes and administrators to take sexual assault seriously by adopting strict policies on sexual violence and prevention.

She called Watson's return to the field "frustrating" and the antics of fans "defeating at times."

"People have minimized the impact on these survivors in a really detrimental way," said Tracy, who has spoken to more than 50,000 athletes, including one NFL team -- the Baltimore Ravens. "Just making a mockery of the trauma and the pain that these survivors have gone through. ... That's all terrible and disgusting, and all it does is just further the minimization of the harm that he did to other human beings.""

"That was just fine with at least one Texans fan, whose sign read: "I would rather be 1-9-1 than have Deshaun Watson as my quarterback.""

[tiamat63]

 During the 2020 season, Watson's best one statistically, where he lead the NFL in passing and practically carried the Houston offense -  DeAndre Hopkins was playing for the Cardinals. 

 

 

 

 

[calfoxwc]

13 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 During the 2020 season, Watson's best one statistically, where he lead the NFL in passing and practically carried the Houston offense -  DeAndre Hopkins was playing for the Cardinals.

yes, they got veteran Brandin Cooks to replace him - a former 1st round draft pick. and still had Will Fuller, also a former first round pick. Both were fast deep threats.

They also had Randall Cobb:

• Pro Bowl (2014)
• PFWA All-Rookie Team (2011)
• First-team All-American (2010)
• 2× First-team All-SEC (2009, 2010)

and still had his former basketall player TE he liked to throw to.

and nobody is saying he can't throw and run. He is not worth 230 million guaranteed and 3 first round draft picks.

Never will be. Yes, he is an exceptionall athletic player.

but, he is a lowlife sombeitch. Stay tuned. His stink will never go away no matter how desperately he and the browns fo and ownership try to squelch it.

 

 

[Flugel]

40 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Actually, no, he has the physical talent bigtime - but his lack of playing time - says otherwise.

And, a lot of qb's would have done better with this wr that watson had for three years (DeAndre Hopkins):

• 3× First-team All-Pro (2017–2019)
• 2× Second-team All-Pro (2015, 2020)
• 5× Pro Bowl (2015, 2017–2020)
• NFL receiving touchdowns leader (2017)
• PFWA All-Rookie Team (2013)
• First-team All-ACC (2012)

Meanwhile, more to my point -

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35189366/questions-remain-deshaun-watson-debuts-browns-texans

"

ON MARCH 18, the Browns traded for Watson, sending the Texans three first-round draft picks in return. Cleveland then gave Watson a $230 million fully guaranteed deal, the richest contract in NFL history.

Donisha Greene, the director of community engagement for the Cleveland Rape Crisis Center, said her organization's phones immediately began ringing.

"It was really heartbreaking at times because you got your lifelong fans writing their notes and saying, 'I've been a Browns fan for 29 years, and this is the first season that I won't be participating in,' so they'd donate the cost of a season ticket," said Greene, who noted that the Cleveland Rape Crisis Center has raised more than $120,000 since March from people who said they were donating because of Watson. "It was a pretty powerful response, for sure."

"

Brenda Tracy has followed the Watson case closely. Tracy was raped by four men, including three Oregon State football players, in 1998. She now travels the country sharing her story in hopes of persuading coaches, athletes and administrators to take sexual assault seriously by adopting strict policies on sexual violence and prevention.

She called Watson's return to the field "frustrating" and the antics of fans "defeating at times."

"People have minimized the impact on these survivors in a really detrimental way," said Tracy, who has spoken to more than 50,000 athletes, including one NFL team -- the Baltimore Ravens. "Just making a mockery of the trauma and the pain that these survivors have gone through. ... That's all terrible and disgusting, and all it does is just further the minimization of the harm that he did to other human beings.""

"That was just fine with at least one Texans fan, whose sign read: "I would rather be 1-9-1 than have Deshaun Watson as my quarterback.""

Where are we going with this Cal?  I thought we were debating your point that Watson doesn't like football and lacks leadership.  These points you're making doesn't undo any of the points I made.  

[calfoxwc]

7 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Where are we going with this Cal?  I thought we were debating your point that Watson doesn't like football and lacks leadership.  These points you're making doesn't undo any of the points I made.  

beats me, Mr. Flugels. LOL

Being successful doesn't mean "loving football".

in watson's case - it's "he's tremendously athletic but is stupid and slutty off the field". "NOT a face of your franchise" (unless you are the haslams and fo....).

It's just that - you do not ruin your reputation and ability to play football for months and months, if you love the game.

That's all. I'm just feeling "dangerous" the past few days. You know me.

Not my sign.....

[Orion]

4 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

Donisha Greene, the director of community engagement for the Cleveland Rape Crisis Center, said her organization's phones immediately began ringing.

So, I guess his signing with the Browns was expected to ignite a crime wave of rape...

[Dutch Oven]

How can you tell Watson is playing better?

Cal can't stop posting about him. 

[calfoxwc]

19 hours ago, Orion said:

So, I guess his signing with the Browns was expected to ignite a crime wave of rape...

yes, there are varying elements of sexual assault. but his signing brings up THE SUBJECT in association to the "face of the franchise".

so, you support sexual offense or not? or, you don't do either because the subject "doesn't matter" because you think watson will take the browns to a superbowl?

I'm not buyin it. And I've been a Browns fan since...eh, two days ago, I turned 72, so.....anyways, my favorite rb was always Leroy Kelly.

[Orion]

4 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

my favorite rb was always Leroy Kelly.

He was great.  I loved him.  Now I love Chubb.

 

[nickers]

23 minutes ago, Orion said:

He was great.  I loved him.  Now I love Chubb.

 

Mega Dittos!

[calfoxwc]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

He was great.  I loved him.  Now I love Chubb.

 

current rb's, of course Chubb! who doesn't? except for hoorta, he wants to be watons's happy ending boy - that's his idea of a rb)

[Dutch Oven]

3 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

current rb's, of course Chubb! who doesn't? except for hoorta, he wants to be watons's happy ending boy - that's his idea of a rb)

When you drive by a Cheesecake Factory, you get harder than a diamond at the thought of sharing a backseat with Baker in his SUV, don't you? 

[tiamat63]

 While I'm not the disciple of RAS like some are, that doesn't mean I ignore them entirely.  

 Pre-draft, I was asked about Kyle Hamilton.  While there were parts to his game that I really liked, I saw him less as the next Harrison Smith and more of a laterally limited Weakside/walkout type backer.   Fun enough, that's almost exactly how the Ravens have used him this season.   A use that was pretty glaring when I went back to watch the Browns v Ravens coaches film. 

 @Unsympathetic I'm going to tag you in this because you posted his RAS which lead us to the conclusion that his short area burst, specifically sideline to sideline, was a real problem.      Good on you for posting that first, because this is what that weakness looks like played out on an NFL field.

 

 

There are only two real critiques I have with the following play.

1 - Chemistry and lack of time with Deshaun in this offense.  Which, really is what it is. 

2 - DPJ reading DB's leverage wrong.  He should have snapped this off a bit sooner and over his inside shoulder which would have lead him away from Humphrey.  That would have made him a viable option and net an 'explosive' passing play (12+? yards)

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2nd play.....

 

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These two plays highlight some things.

- Credit to the coaching staff, and the assistants who run these sorts of things up the ladder to the offensive staff.  The quality assistants and the unsung heroes.  They knew how the Ravens would deploy Kyle in their base and nickel sets.   They also had ideas on how to attack him.  In this case - as mentioned above, either by putting him in assign conflict like I showed in the first play was,  or taking advantage of his lack of short area burst by making him cover your primary in the passing game evidence by the 2nd play.  A big 3rd down conversion to Coop.  

- This also shows a focus on matchup and weakness tendency by the coaching staff in their weekly preparation.    This is why the "fire stef" crowd needs to slow their role.   Him and his group do a fantastic job, most of the time, with their opening scripts and 1st half designs.      I will admit though, his deficiency as a coach which needs improvement are the adjustments before the counter has been delivered.  You don't need to have the deepest bag, but if you hit your 4i once or twice correctly but it's gone to shit on the back 9, then you need to drop to that 5iron and climb on that instead.   Golf analogy and I'm dealing with winter, sue me.  

 

- Goes to show why elite short area burst is so vital in the NFL.  From defensive line, to receivers to DB's.     As coach Billichek said, this game isn't played in a straight line.   

 

 Hamilton gives the Ravens some nice abilities and tools to work with, but with those tools comes disadvantages they'll have to overcome as a coaching staff and he'll have to work to minimize as a player.    Sadly we don't play the Ravens again this season, so you're going to have to file this away for next year.    But if Baltimore chooses to expand Kyle's role this offseason, despite being exploited in his limited deployment his rookie year, then they're going to end up with a DB situation similar to what we saw with Grant Delpit for the better part of 2022.     And with the advent of a gun based RPO going to be more heavily featured in Cleveland starting next training camp, the Browns coaches are going to go back to the film well, see Kyle and say "that's where we'll start drawing things up with" yet again.