4th and Scrum

[Orion]

The Eagles do the QB sneak thing right.  They've got a big, strong QB so they put some guys around him and scrum him over the line.  

It's not very pretty.  So how will the NFL legislate against it?  

[SdBacker80]

20 minutes ago, Orion said:

The Eagles do the QB sneak thing right.  They've got a big, strong QB so they put some guys around him and scrum him over the line.  

It's not very pretty.  So how will the NFL legislate against it?  

It is two yards everytime.  I’m waiting for a LB or safety to come in high 

[Axe]

46 minutes ago, Orion said:

  So how will the NFL legislate against it?  

Legalize the Nad kick?

[Orion]

22 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

 I’m waiting for a LB or safety to come in high 

Early in the game someone went high.  He just bounced off.  Too many guys in forward motion with their legs churning.  As a defender, ya can't leave your feet.  You need more guys pushing back at 'em.

[Unsympathetic]

Hurts was a powerlifting state champ in HS, he may be stronger than his own OL.  The scrum part seems incidental, he had the first every time before the other guys behind him could reach him..

[Korsou Dawg]

5 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

Hurts was a powerlifting state champ in HS, he may be stronger than his own OL.  The scrum part seems incidental, he had the first every time before the other guys behind him could reach him..

I would argue it is both. Did you see how low his O-line got? See start of below clip for example. Football played to perfection, with a little inspiration taken from rugby. Don't think you can legislate against it @Orion. Browns would do well to copy for Brissett sneaks.

 

[calfoxwc]

The Eagles got low and had all the leverage, but they also drove the Chiefs off the los with serious power.

Their tackles can pinch in and force first downs.

Jordan Mailata 6'8", 364 lbs. LT
Landon Dickerson 6'6", 332 lbs
Jason Kelce 6'3", 295 lbs
Isaac Seumalo 6'4", 303 lbs
Lane Johnson 6'6', 325 lbs.

Interesting to note that the Eagles pay big for their oline guys:

https://thelibertyline.com/2022/05/13/eagles-offensive-line-off-the-charts/

What a great matchup. A great game - interesting and close. The battle in the trenches was amazing to watch.

I think Mr. TE Kelce and Mahomes made for the difference. Kelce broke Gronk's playoff TD catch record in the first quarter. and Mahomes - is just amazing.

[Flugel]

10 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

The Eagles got low and had all the leverage, but they also drove the Chiefs off the los with serious power.

Their tackles can pinch in and force first downs.

Jordan Mailata 6'8", 364 lbs. LT
Landon Dickerson 6'6", 332 lbs
Jason Kelce 6'3", 295 lbs
Isaac Seumalo 6'4", 303 lbs
Lane Johnson 6'6', 325 lbs.

Interesting to note that the Eagles pay big for their oline guys:

https://thelibertyline.com/2022/05/13/eagles-offensive-line-off-the-charts/

What a great matchup. A great game - interesting and close. The battle in the trenches was amazing to watch.

I think Mr. TE Kelce and Mahomes made for the difference. Kelce broke Gronk's playoff TD catch record in the first quarter. and Mahomes - is just amazing.

Jordan Mailata grew up playing rugby; so I wonder if he had some input on the short yardage rugby scrum.  That was pretty fun to watch.

[SdBacker80]

even without the personnel advantage  it is a highly successful play.

https://sports.sites.yale.edu/success-short-yardage-play-types-fourth-down

credit to Yale Here

 

[Flugel]

11 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

even without the personnel advantage  it is a highly successful play.

https://sports.sites.yale.edu/success-short-yardage-play-types-fourth-down

credit to Yale Here

 

The idea base of this whole thing is based on the Wedge Block; and I'm not talking about the kick-off return wedge that they no longer allow.  I'm talking about a very short yardage conversion where every offensive player on the LOS (steps inward toward Center and forward simultaneously) with the Center at the apex with both Guards almost glued to his hips and both tackles almost glue to both Guards hips all in 1 motion. Basically everybody is down-blocking toward Center on both sides of the Center. An even easier alternative is just to shorten the splits between offensive players upfront down to an inch or 2 between each player along the LOS/line of scrimmage. The key is to fire out as 1 cohesive unit not allowing any defenders to get beat any OL to their inside. It's been a very effective tool for a QB sneak/handoff to the FB.  The rugby scrum is like a next generation evolution of this concept.

The ONLY thing I wish the NFL would return to is disallowing 2 or 3 guys behind the QB pushing him forward for additional yardage.  That used to be a penalty; and it still should be IMO.  I hope they continue to allow the scrum.   If you watched the SB replays of how Philly perfected the pad height leverage superiority with those scrums; it was a thing of beauty.  They got underneath the DL/blitzers which removed the defensive base at the point of attack.  That's exactly what you want.

Here's a link on Wedge Blocking as it pertains to the Oline.  Believe it or not, it's origin is from youth football but there's a segment in there that talks about the main purpose of it and how to execute it at the LOS. http://www.y-coach.com/wedge.html

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Flugel

[SdBacker80]

9 hours ago, Flugel said:

The idea base of this whole thing is based on the Wedge Block; and I'm not talking about the kick-off return wedge that they no longer allow.  I'm talking about a very short yardage conversion where every offensive player on the LOS (steps inward toward Center and forward simultaneously) with the Center at the apex with both Guards almost glued to his hips and both tackles almost glue to both Guards hips all in 1 motion. Basically everybody is down-blocking toward Center on both sides of the Center. An even easier alternative is just to shorten the splits between offensive players upfront down to an inch or 2 between each player along the LOS/line of scrimmage. The key is to fire out as 1 cohesive unit not allowing any defenders to get beat any OL to their inside. It's been a very effective tool for a QB sneak/handoff to the FB.  The rugby scrum is like a next generation evolution of this concept.

The ONLY thing I wish the NFL would return to is disallowing 2 or 3 guys behind the QB pushing him forward for additional yardage.  That used to be a penalty; and it still should be IMO.  I hope they continue to allow the scrum.   If you watched the SB replays of how Philly perfected the pad height leverage superiority with those scrums; it was a thing of beauty.  They got underneath the DL/blitzers which removed the defensive base at the point of attack.  That's exactly what you want.

Here's a link on Wedge Blocking as it pertains to the Oline.  Believe it or not, it's origin is from youth football but there's a segment in there that talks about the main purpose of it and how to execute it at the LOS. http://www.y-coach.com/wedge.html

 

I dunno…3rd and 1 or 4th and 1…you’ve had positive plays leading up to that point and you have earned the right to line up a punish the defense.  
 
And the guy or two or three behind are 1,2,3 less men you have to account for in a blocking scheme or split out wide.  So the defense has a number advantage at the point of attack.   

[Orion]

40 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

the guy or two or three behind are 1,2,3 less men you have to account for in a blocking scheme

But you're only trying to go straight ahead a couple of yards so you really don't care what the defenders on the edges are doing.  

And why wouldn't I just send in a couple of DT's to line up behind the QB to help shove the pile forward?    -  It just seems so primitive.

[calfoxwc]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

But you're only trying to go straight ahead a couple of yards so you really don't care what the defenders on the edges are doing.  

And why wouldn't I just send in a couple of DT's to line up behind the QB to help shove the pile forward?    -  It just seems so primitive.

say, how about keeping a few 340 lb liinebackers on your roster to push the NT forwards against the two big guys pushing the qb forward? stalemate !

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

I dunno…3rd and 1 or 4th and 1…you’ve had positive plays leading up to that point and you have earned the right to line up a punish the defense.  
 
And the guy or two or three behind are 1,2,3 less men you have to account for in a blocking scheme or split out wide.  So the defense has a number advantage at the point of attack.   

And that's a good point.  That said, I'd rather use that than overthrow the WR 40 yards downfield on 4th and 1 like the Browns did.  The scrum was used like a modern day wedge block on the LOS where Kelsey was the apex of it; and his OGs were right next to him with the tackles right next to them. And do you know how they handled the numbers?  They fired off the ball with a much lower pad height than all those DL and other defenders loading the box.  When you get off the ball first at a lower pad height - you're going to have the superior base and leverage to win the battle.  I didn't see Chiefs' defenders knifing through those scrums.  Keep in mind, the Eagles only used it when they needed to convert a short yardage situation.

 

[SdBacker80]

18 hours ago, Flugel said:

And that's a good point.  That said, I'd rather use that than overthrow the WR 40 yards downfield on 4th and 1 like the Browns did.  The scrum was used like a modern day wedge block on the LOS where Kelsey was the apex of it; and his OGs were right next to him with the tackles right next to them. And do you know how they handled the numbers?  They fired off the ball with a much lower pad height than all those DL and other defenders loading the box.  When you get off the ball first at a lower pad height - you're going to have the superior base and leverage to win the battle.  I didn't see Chiefs' defenders knifing through those scrums.  Keep in mind, the Eagles only used it when they needed to convert a short yardage situation.

 

YES yes yes on staying away from the  Stefanski approach of doing what they aren’t expecting and throwing a 40 yard pass on 4th and short. 

I believe the Eagles call it the “two cheek sneak”.  They did false start on one and I think that is common because of the need (key) to fire off the ball in unison which you mentioned earlier AND i don’t think it is the safest play  (in regard to player health)to run for the offense too.  
 

 

[gumby73]

I've heard some rumbling that makes some sense..

For similar safety reasons. The safety committee stopped freaks from jumping clean over centers to block FG's. Included not using a players body part to springboard upward..

Add the wording...nor forward.. 

edit 2-17--- https://www.the33rdteam.com/category/analysis/quarterback-push-could-be-outlawed-by-nfl-next-season/

Also, GameDay Roster active lists need to increase

[Orion]

22 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

say, how about keeping a few 340 lb liinebackers on your roster to push the NT forwards against the two big guys pushing the qb forward? stalemate !

Well, you have to combat that scrum somehow right.  It's like a tug of war.  You need more big fat guys on the rope.

[Flugel]

5 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

YES yes yes on staying away from the  Stefanski approach of doing what they aren’t expecting and throwing a 40 yard pass on 4th and short. 

I believe the Eagles call it the “two cheek sneak”.  They did false start on one and I think that is common because of the need (key) to fire off the ball in unison which you mentioned earlier AND i don’t think it is the safest play  (in regard to player health)to run for the offense too.  
 

 

Valid concern.  Short yard conversions in general can go really wrong if everyone on the OL isn't firing out together with ideal pad heights. Like anything, the more you practice it - the more you can get it to go the way you want it to despite how infrequently you may use it during the game.  For example, Philly only used their scrum a handful of times pretty much all for the same situation.  You could tell they put considerable practice reps into it when we noticed how frequently they converted/scored.  

 

[ballpeen]

Maybe they should just go back to no pushing.  In the ice bowl game, you see #30 Donny Anderson follow Starr on his sneak.  It looks like he is signaling TD but the reality is he was showing the refs he wasn't pushing Bart Starr.

 

 

[Orion]

6 hours ago, ballpeen said:

Maybe they should just go back to no pushing. 

That's a way to legislate against it.