Inside Linebacker

[Unsympathetic]

Fields may very well be that long-term moderately-priced LB2.  He'll outplay JOK every 3rd week.

He already seems one of the draft-day-3 hits that we need to string together to be successful long-term. Fields, DPJ, AJGreen.. Here's hoping one of Woods / Thomas / Jerome Ford becomes useful.

[ballpeen]

3 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

I’d be surprised if Taki Walker and Phillips are on the roster in 2024.  And the trio can’t be counted on to stay healthy in 2023. 
 

A third round developmental guy isn’t really a luxury and probably a necessity.  We may find someone here that can plug and play well Day 1 too. 

That could be.

 

One thought on backers.  I think it is safe to say that as things stand today, our D-line is better than last year.  At least the interior for sure.  Edge remains to be seen.  Clowny didn't get much love, but the guy was a very good run defender.

 

So, with the improvements mentioned, the backers as they stand today are going to be better. Unless your name is Ray Lewis, a backer is going to have a hard time if guards are consistently getting on them.  Especially given that backers in general have gotten smaller in size over the last 10 years.  This isn't just a Browns thing.  Now, a guy like Phillips might be better than simply an OK guy at the position at best and may become pretty darn good at the position....insert any other name you want.  The point remains the same.  Unless they are exceptional, backers need the D line creating some roadblocks.  Backers look better when they know what hole the back is going to have to take rather than sit in limbo to see what hole he is going to take.

[Flugel]

On 3/26/2023 at 12:05 PM, SdBacker80 said:

I’d be surprised if Taki Walker and Phillips are on the roster in 2024.  And the trio can’t be counted on to stay healthy in 2023. 
 

A third round developmental guy isn’t really a luxury and probably a necessity.  We may find someone here that can plug and play well Day 1 too. 

I wouldn't mind seeing an x-factor on this defense that causes turnovers.  I don't think we've produced a lot of turnovers the last couple year.  I know some people don't think LBer is a BIG need - and it's not. They're right.  However, these can be the type of guys with great instincts and ideal athleticism that can make stuff happen. Look at the Henley highlights and you'll him causing turnovers the very first play.  I had hoped JOK would be this for us - and he still might if he can stay healthy.  

[ballpeen]

51 minutes ago, Flugel said:

I wouldn't mind seeing an x-factor on this defense that causes turnovers.  I don't think we've produced a lot of turnovers the last couple year.  I know some people don't think LBer is a BIG need - and it's not. They're right.  However, these can be the type of guys with great instincts and ideal athleticism that can make stuff happen. Look at the Henley highlights and you'll him causing turnovers the very first play.  I had hoped JOK would be this for us - and he still might if he can stay healthy.  

I agree.  I don't think all of the players mentioned will be let go after this season, but probably 2.  As for JOK, he got a ND bump   At least it seems so.  He needs to pick it up to meet the hype.  I am not saying he is bad, but he is a long way from being a 5 time pro bowler.  Maybe better D line play will keep him out of the weeds.

[nickers]

45 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

I agree.  I don't think all of the players mentioned will be let go after this season, but probably 2.  As for JOK, he got a ND bump   At least it seems so.  He needs to pick it up to meet the hype.  I am not saying he is bad, but he is a long way from being a 5 time pro bowler.  Maybe better D line play will keep him out of the weeds.

I think for JOK it was a question of System... Joe Woods seems to love to glorify the DB's and everything else seems to take a back seat with him.. I thought woods was a bad choice from the start... You cant build a stalwart defense in reverse.. You go Dline.. Linbacker.. then secondary... Not the other way around.. At least Marty understood that... And I was not a Marty fan...

[tiamat63]

JoK's issues are two fold.

- He was a prime athlete playing in a college system no where near as complex as what he's had to do in the NFL.

- His mental and coverage discipline getting in the way of him seeing more snaps.     I'm sure people beyond myself noticed him being subbed out on passing downs last season.   That shouldn't happen when you have wheels like him.  But it did, because he couldn't be trusted to hold his water, find coverage landmarks, correctly diagnose and go cover/down.   Basically to be a complete linebacker as opposed to a great athlete who runs down ball carriers.  

 

 Speaking of ILB's.   This was something @Flugel and myself spoke on the phone about, but I also brought up on this board in the Prospects thread.     I've been working to get a better handle on Jack Campbell and the Iowa defensive system, and how he stacks up against other LB's that have come through there.   I made mention that their 2022 version reminded me quite a bit of the Hawkeyes days under Coach Norm Parker.   Leaning on a cover 2 base, not many personnel subs, very passive in their calls and lacking ideal DB's.    

 It's also no secret that RAS risers are a thing and I'm no fan of them.   So when I see Campbell post a good 3 cone or shuttle, I want to see that change of direction and first step lateral pursuit really show up at some point in game.  Otherwise I'm just going to think you're a combine warrior and little else.    Finally came across that play which had me find a bit of ease should JC drop to us or the Brownies trade up to late R2 and take him.    And this works perfectly because it's an apples to apples comparison across the board.  And yes, my memory is pretty damn fantastic for this sort of recall.  

 

 This was against coach Norm Parker in 2006.

 

 

 

 Offensive/Defensive personnel are the same.

Formation is the same.

Defensive call is the same.

Route(s) is/are the same.  

MLB being the matchup is the same. 

 

Only difference is in the actual player(s) themselves.  

 

 Some might call this H option, but I'd suspect they're wrong?    I say that because most any option route from the H/Z/Y, with a clearout from the perimeter, that means you're going to use the leverage of the LB against him and break this outside.  Who knows how Tressel tags this though, but I'm more familiar with the 50 H-option classic from Urban Meyer.    Anywho, called this a snag n drag.   First play is an example from one of the best possession receivers OSU has had the last 25 years.

Feel free to ignore anything after the catch.  The YAC doesn't concern me, despite the fact it was epic and we beat Iowa down pretty bad that night.   

The linebacker Gonzo beat was former Colt Pat Angerer.  Who was drafted in the early 2nd round, where Campbell is projected at his earliest.  Only difference is, despite having started and even stayed inside leverage on his man even until his settle then break, Pat didn't have the first step and change of direction to even being keeping pace with #11.  Result is a huge gain that had no chance of being limited.

 

Fast forward to 2022 and Nebraska tries hitting Iowa with the exact same play, let's count em', 16 years later...    Yeah, that hurt my soul typing that one out.    

 

Play I'm talking about starts at 3:23 mark.

 

 

 

 

 Campbell stays light on his feet, shoulders square, then opens and drives laterally VERY well to run this down.   My only gripes, First - being that I can be a bit of a prick about details, is the lack of hip sink from the WR which would have helped the sell AND the splits by the receivers.  Second - In the OSU clip, the Buckeyes have Teddy outside and Robo just inside the numbers while Gonzo damn near on the field hash working back into a positive (inside) break. 

 But still, that's a kid who ran a fucking 4.3 at the combine being tracked down by Campbell. It's about as impressive as a play that you'll find in coverage and starts to help me find some justification in the the hype around him.  

 

 

 

 edit:  Seems like there's a reason the current Iowa defense feels so familiar.  Phil Parker coached under Norm Parker for over 10 years.   It would follow that he would be versed in a defense his predecessor tailored for so long there.

 

 

 

 

 

[Flugel]

On 3/28/2023 at 4:08 PM, tiamat63 said:

JoK's issues are two fold.

- He was a prime athlete playing in a college system no where near as complex as what he's had to do in the NFL.

- His mental and coverage discipline getting in the way of him seeing more snaps.     I'm sure people beyond myself noticed him being subbed out on passing downs last season.   That shouldn't happen when you have wheels like him.  But it did, because he couldn't be trusted to hold his water, find coverage landmarks, correctly diagnose and go cover/down.   Basically to be a complete linebacker as opposed to a great athlete who runs down ball carriers.  

 

 Speaking of ILB's.   This was something @Flugel and myself spoke on the phone about, but I also brought up on this board in the Prospects thread.     I've been working to get a better handle on Jack Campbell and the Iowa defensive system, and how he stacks up against other LB's that have come through there.   I made mention that their 2022 version reminded me quite a bit of the Hawkeyes days under Coach Norm Parker.   Leaning on a cover 2 base, not many personnel subs, very passive in their calls and lacking ideal DB's.    

 It's also no secret that RAS risers are a thing and I'm no fan of them.   So when I see Campbell post a good 3 cone or shuttle, I want to see that change of direction and first step lateral pursuit really show up at some point in game.  Otherwise I'm just going to think you're a combine warrior and little else.    Finally came across that play which had me find a bit of ease should JC drop to us or the Brownies trade up to late R2 and take him.    And this works perfectly because it's an apples to apples comparison across the board.  And yes, my memory is pretty damn fantastic for this sort of recall.  

 

 This was against coach Norm Parker in 2006.

 

 

 

 Offensive/Defensive personnel are the same.

Formation is the same.

Defensive call is the same.

Route(s) is/are the same.  

MLB being the matchup is the same. 

 

Only difference is in the actual player(s) themselves.  

 

 Some might call this H option, but I'd suspect they're wrong?    I say that because most any option route from the H/Z/Y, with a clearout from the perimeter, that means you're going to use the leverage of the LB against him and break this outside.  Who knows how Tressel tags this though, but I'm more familiar with the 50 H-option classic from Urban Meyer.    Anywho, called this a snag n drag.   First play is an example from one of the best possession receivers OSU has had the last 25 years.

Feel free to ignore anything after the catch.  The YAC doesn't concern me, despite the fact it was epic and we beat Iowa down pretty bad that night.   

The linebacker Gonzo beat was former Colt Pat Angerer.  Who was drafted in the early 2nd round, where Campbell is projected at his earliest.  Only difference is, despite having started and even stayed inside leverage on his man even until his settle then break, Pat didn't have the first step and change of direction to even being keeping pace with #11.  Result is a huge gain that had no chance of being limited.

 

Fast forward to 2022 and Nebraska tries hitting Iowa with the exact same play, let's count em', 16 years later...    Yeah, that hurt my soul typing that one out.    

 

Play I'm talking about starts at 3:23 mark.

 

 

 

 

 Campbell stays light on his feet, shoulders square, then opens and drives laterally VERY well to run this down.   My only gripes, First - being that I can be a bit of a prick about details, is the lack of hip sink from the WR which would have helped the sell AND the splits by the receivers.  Second - In the OSU clip, the Buckeyes have Teddy outside and Robo just inside the numbers while Gonzo damn near on the field hash working back into a positive (inside) break. 

 But still, that's a kid who ran a fucking 4.3 at the combine being tracked down by Campbell. It's about as impressive as a play that you'll find in coverage and starts to help me find some justification in the the hype around him.  

 

 

 

 edit:  Seems like there's a reason the current Iowa defense feels so familiar.  Phil Parker coached under Norm Parker for over 10 years.   It would follow that he would be versed in a defense his predecessor tailored for so long there.

 

 

 

 

 

Good points! The 1 thing the combines and workouts don't show is 1st step instinct.  A bad 1st step instinct can completely neuter how fast/quick some guys play at while a great 1st step instinct can help a guy like Ray Lewis that slid all the way down because he dared not to stand out in the 40.  Teams that aren't careful with that stuff (blowing off film for workout heroics) sure hand the Ravens a lot of good players. Remember Orlando Brown Jr's forgettable combines?  The guy was a 3rd round pick for Baltimore; and has started at RT and LT.  I think he's got about 4 Pro Bowls or so already. Now the Bengals just signed him for mega bucks. Point is watch the film.

Another big thing to remember as guys are moving up to a more complex game is - you're not drafting rear view mirror.  With the stuff scouts see on film and gather from the players' previous position coaches - what stuff makes a prospect ideal for your team?  And what could be some show-stoppers?  What's the work ethic?  Is he a student of the game that prepares and learns the cues that make him play with better 1st step instinct?  A lot goes into this.