Pluto: How I've Heard The Browns Are Rebuilding Offense For Watson

[Dutch Oven]

I checked with some of my top NFL sources about how Deshaun Watson performed in the various spring camps. There is an asterisk next to everything you read because this is no-contact football. Many of the practices weren’t open to the media, which is why I reached out to those close to the situation.

 

1. Watson is building a strong relationship with head coach Kevin Stefanski and offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt. I heard they consider him “a no-ego star who wants to be coached hard.” That matches Watson’s reputation at Clemson and for the most part, in Houston.

 

 

 

 

2. Stefanski has corrected Watson in front of the team. Watson understands that’s part of the deal as a QB. The team is looking to see if the coaches will criticize him as they do other players. So far, Watson has been a low-maintenance QB.

 

 

3. Watson, Stefanski and Van Pelt have been exchanging ideas, texting plays to each other away from the facility. Watson has been looking at videos from other NFL and college teams, looking for plays he likes – much like the coaches do for him.

 

 

4. A major difference from a year ago is Watson’s ability to “self-coach.” He recognizes when he makes a mistake and often mentions it and corrects it before the coaches have a chance to say anything.

 

 

5. It’s early, but I hear the relationship between Watson and the coaching staff “is an incredibly healthy dynamic.”

 

 

The relationship between coach Kevin Stefanski (middle), offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt and Deshaun Watson has been strong. John Kuntz, cleveland.com

 

6. In spring drills, the Browns believe Watson “was crisp, making some high degree of difficulty throws.” The timing with receivers was encouraging, as was how Watson performed in various drills, including 7-on-7 and 11-on-11.

 

 

7. In the practices I saw, that assessment matched. Watson looked sharp, better than probably any QB I’ve seen since 1999 in this type of practice. I will add that Watson also was impressive in these drills last spring. Better now, but he was good in 2022.

 

 

8. The coaches will deny this, but I believe they became distracted because they had to prepare one type of offense for the pocket-passing Jacoby Brissett in the first 11 games, then another type of offense for Watson, a more athletic and mobile QB.

 

 

 

 

9. Fact is, other teams have QBs with different styles and can make the switch. I thought this was a weakness with the coaching last season.

 

10. The other possibility is the Browns are saying this because Watson was dealing with so much off the field and missing 700 days between regular-season games – he was simply overwhelmed. He admitted as much, as I wrote about last weekend. The coaches were willing to take some of the blame off him with the two-different-offenses explanation.

 

 

Deshaun Watson should be throwing more off the run this season. Joshua Gunter, cleveland.com

 

11. For Watson and the Browns in 2023, this is a fresh start. The Browns are emphasizing the concepts preferred by Watson – and those that also emphasize his strengths. Look for more no-huddle plays this season. (FYI: I begged them in print to do that with Watson in 2022). There also will be more empty-backfield formations. There will be more plays allowing Watson to throw off the run – or run the ball himself.

 

 

12. Most of changes described in the offense should be obvious, but the Browns didn’t do that last season. None of this is an excuse for Watson’s discouraging six games. But it also is true some basic changes to the offense could have helped him.

 

 

13. The Browns have been spending a lot time on “scramble drills.” That’s where the receivers keep their pass patterns alive as Watson scrambles and extends plays. This is something the Browns didn’t emphasize last year because the stationary Brissett was the main QB.

 

14. The receivers keeping their eyes on the QB and running to open spots should help Amari Cooper and Donovan Peoples-Jones, both extremely smart guys in terms of football IQ. I don’t know much about Elijah Moore or the Browns’ younger receivers when it comes to how quickly they will adapt to Watson. I do know the Browns are high on Cedric Tillman, their rookie from Tennessee. The early reviews of Moore have been very positive.

 

 

15. Watson was sacked 20 times in six games. Over a 17-game schedule, that’s 56 sacks. From 2018-2020, Watson was sacked 155 times. That was the most in the NFL over that three-year span. It’s an average of 52 times a season.

 

 

16. The Browns know Watson will have high sack totals. Some of it is a product of his scrambling style. Last season, Justin Fields and Russell Wilson were sacked the most – 55 times each. Then came Kirk Cousins and Geno Smith at 46 times.

 

 

17. The Browns are working with Watson and the line to help with blocking coverage. A QB who scrambles a lot can “run into sacks.” That means the linemen are blocking defenders in a certain direction, and then the QB scrambles right into a tackle. The Browns are trying to accelerate the rate of Watson and his blockers becoming used to each other.

 

18. It’s spring non-contact football. It’s a time of optimism and hope. Some of what I’m hearing is a product of that upbeat vibe. But the accuracy displayed by Watson in the spring was real. His growing relationship with the coaches is real and encouraging.

 

[Dutch Oven]

I copied and pasted this bad boy because as we all know, Terry Pluto's stuff on cleveland.com usually is premium, or becomes premium shortly after it is posted. I tried to clean it up, since copying articles usually produces a sloppy look, but ended up shrinking Pluto's #2 point, so I just stopped. 

Oh well, you'll get the point if you peruse Pluto's ponderings. 

[ballpeen]

Thanks for the Sunday read.

 

17. The Browns are working with Watson and the line to help with blocking coverage. A QB who scrambles a lot can “run into sacks.” That means the linemen are blocking defenders in a certain direction, and then the QB scrambles right into a tackle. The Browns are trying to accelerate the rate of Watson and his blockers becoming used to each other.

 

I am not sure how that happens?  It seems to me that once Watson scrambles, something in the blocking has broken down to some degree. Blockers then have to ride the defender out of the play, either in or out.  Once a O lineman is beaten to some degree I think they can only block what they can block.    To me the only teaching point is to hold your block 1 second longer than the defender is trying to make a push.  Or maybe to have tackles drilled not to get beat outside.  If you are going to lose position, lose it inside to allow watson an outside chance.

If Watson runs in to a sack, that is on him, if you can even say it is on anybody.

 

[nickers]

I'd rather he win from the pocket... And run only when he has to...

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

Thanks for the Sunday read.

 

I am not sure how that happens?  It seems to me that once Watson scrambles, something in the blocking has broken down to some degree.

 

Yeah, that's generally how that goes bubs.

 

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

 

 

Blockers then have to ride the defender out of the play, either in or out. 

 

 

Riding or guiding a rusher upfield and out of the play is within the structure of blocking itself.  The more you send a pass rush vertical and don't let it flatten and bend to the QB, the more you can counter that level of undisciplined play. 

 

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

 

  To me the only teaching point is to hold your block 1 second longer than the defender is trying to make a push. 

 

 

 Working on scramble drill is building chemistry on where and how your QB likes to evade primary or secondary pressures.  This also goes hand in hand with how he'll extend plays vs certain fronts and blitzes he may see to find favorable escape lanes, all while understanding how the play develops from a route combination perspective.  

 

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

 

Or maybe to have tackles drilled not to get beat outside.  If you are going to lose position, lose it inside to allow watson an outside chance.

 

The complete opposite in this case.  You absolutely do not want to be beaten at any point inside, unless you're dealing with an elite runner.   Vick, Murray, Lamar to a degree....   Watson's pocket drop depth is much more condensed than Baker's was.  Meaning your pass pro is going to have the advantage of not having to consistently setup to overcommit to the outside shoulder while being setup for failure back across your face (inside)  Ride the rush outside and upfield, then Watson's preferred escape can be more vertical before it is horizonal.  Also means when he does go to scramble, he's gaining positive net yards on his initial steps (generally) by naturally being pointed upfield instead of first having to escape laterally, which lends itself to more TFLs and/or sacks.    He's not a QB with those elite sideline to sideline wheels.  

 

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

If Watson runs in to a sack, that is on him, if you can even say it is on anybody.

 

 

 

 

Credited sacks exist for a reason.  QB's, much like lineman, have to be held accountable for the systemic and immediate contributions to sack rates they may or may not cause.   Because if we can't, then we can't understand or fix the problem(s).

 

 

 

 

 

edit: Terry's article should have been called "retooling" the offense, because that's what it has been this whole time.   Still not a single mention, beyond mine on this board, of the shift to the gun-based vertical zone structures both run and passing.    

[Orion]

9 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

There also will be more empty-backfield formations.

That's not gonna be popular with traditionalists.

9 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

13. The Browns have been spending a lot time on “scramble drills.” That’s where the receivers keep their pass patterns alive as Watson scrambles and extends plays. This is something the Browns didn’t emphasize last year

It should be emphasized 'every' year.  They can't stand there like mopes after their route and make the QB look for someone to tackle him.

 

[ballpeen]

18 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Yeah, that's generally how that goes bubs.

 

 

Riding or guiding a rusher upfield and out of the play is within the structure of blocking itself.  The more you send a pass rush vertical and don't let it flatten and bend to the QB, the more you can counter that level of undisciplined play. 

 

 

 Working on scramble drill is building chemistry on where and how your QB likes to evade primary or secondary pressures.  This also goes hand in hand with how he'll extend plays vs certain fronts and blitzes he may see to find favorable escape lanes, all while understanding how the play develops from a route combination perspective.  

 

 

The complete opposite in this case.  You absolutely do not want to be beaten at any point inside, unless you're dealing with an elite runner.   Vick, Murray, Lamar to a degree....   Watson's pocket drop depth is much more condensed than Baker's was.  Meaning your pass pro is going to have the advantage of not having to consistently setup to overcommit to the outside shoulder while being setup for failure back across your face (inside)  Ride the rush outside and upfield, then Watson's preferred escape can be more vertical before it is horizonal.  Also means when he does go to scramble, he's gaining positive net yards on his initial steps (generally) by naturally being pointed upfield instead of first having to escape laterally, which lends itself to more TFLs and/or sacks.    He's not a QB with those elite sideline to sideline wheels.  

 

 

Credited sacks exist for a reason.  QB's, much like lineman, have to be held accountable for the systemic and immediate contributions to sack rates they may or may not cause.   Because if we can't, then we can't understand or fix the problem(s).

 

 

 

 

 

edit: Terry's article should have been called "retooling" the offense, because that's what it has been this whole time.   Still not a single mention, beyond mine on this board, of the shift to the gun-based vertical zone structures both run and passing.    

Thanks....I agree on the retooling part, and have said so myself.  We will be in some form of the gun a large majority of the time.  I see more empty backfield sets as well.  All of that plays in to a more vertical game

 

 

[Orion]

11 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I see more empty backfield sets as well.  All of that plays in to a more vertical game

Yeah, DePo said as much last season when he said that they didn't care about 4 yard runs and wanted 13 yard passes.

They didn't invest a ton of money and 4 #1 picks to center the offense around Chubb.  (kicking Mayfield to the curb is a spent #1 pick)  DePo wants to be able to score whenever they need to....and fast.  

I love Nick Chub.  I've called him the best Browns running back since Jim Brown.  But let's remember...our last Championship came with 3 Frank Ryan touchdown passes and solid defense.  Jim Brown got his hundred yards in the game but it wasn't until a late game breakaway run after the game was already salted away.  Joe Bannon said that Today's NFL is Pass and Rush the Passer.  But it's really always been that way.  The Champions of the league have always been teams that could pass the ball well.  (and don't nobody bring up an exception to the rule...because there is no argument to that fact)

I've always wanted us to be a strong passing team.  But if you don't have the QB and/or receivers to pull that off....and you've got a Nick Chubb in your backfield...then that's where you need to put your focus....because you need to give your 'team' it's best chance at winning the game.

[tiamat63]

12 hours ago, ballpeen said:

 I see more empty backfield sets as well.  All of that plays in to a more vertical game

 

 

 

 Not to be a dick, but that's also not entirely correct.  When you move away from the most common pass pro in football (2 jet) 6 man (RB chip) in favor of having a 5th immediate threat in the pattern, it actually serves mostly to help the shorter, intermediate and horizontal passing game.     I've made this link before, but it just so happens that a lot of Coach Musgrave's offensive philosophy is based on those types of designs.  Horizontal stretch, into a vertical running game and then your deep shots that off those designs. As opposed to what have been our "traditional", 5-7 step ball-action drops from zone stretch looks.  

 

 

[ballpeen]

45 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 

 Not to be a dick, .  

 

 

I don't think you are a dick.  Asshole probably, but hey, so am I

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

 

 Not to be a dick, but that's also not entirely correct.  When you move away from the most common pass pro in football (2 jet) 6 man (RB chip) in favor of having a 5th immediate threat in the pattern, it actually serves mostly to help the shorter, intermediate and horizontal passing game.     I've made this link before, but it just so happens that a lot of Coach Musgrave's offensive philosophy is based on those types of designs.  Horizontal stretch, into a vertical running game and then your deep shots that off those designs. As opposed to what have been our "traditional", 5-7 step ball-action drops from zone stretch looks.  

 

 

A lot of what we can/will do will be contingent upon how well/consistent our Left Tackle.  If he's not, he may need help from backs chipping and/or a TE lining up to his left.

I've never been an empty backfield fan.  Even when Watson plays well, he takes a lot of sacks being patient. Some of that could also be he's not a Dan Marino quick release type.  

We'll see what they do.  All my blow hard comes from a guy that needs his day job.

 

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

 

I've never been an empty backfield fan.  Even when Watson plays well, he takes a lot of sacks being patient. Some of that could also be he's not a Dan Marino quick release type.  

 

 

Like yourself... This has always been a big no no for me... Especially after seeing Jim Jenkins Implode with the Run and shoot in college..I think If I remember correctly.. Him and Mouse Davis were pretty much the authors of the "Run and Gun" "Run and Shoot" style offenses in the late 80's , early 90's.. Was never really a fan.. I think Warren Moon ran it pretty well.. But he also threw more picks.. I would have to go back and check out the #'s to verify that.. I was also a Moon fan.. Helluva QB.. His only problem.. He choked when it counted much like Donovan McNabb... Both great QB's... Both couldn't win a sausage to save their collective souls... For me... a damn good RB has always been a QB's best friend... While a guy like Leroy Hoard was not elite... He played his role well.. And I've always had respect for hard working backs like himself, Larry Kinnebrew and OJ Anderson.. They may not be flashy... But they were every bit as important to an offense as anybody...

[Orion]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

I've never been an empty backfield fan.

It takes any and all threat of the run away...so I'm not a big fan of it with 3 yards or less needed.  And please don't be thinking that you're gonna be running my kazillian dollar QB out of that set!

Of course the Tom Brady Patriots would just nickel & dime ya right down the field with that horizontal slant game that Tia was mentioning.  

And how well the OL can handle the defense of the week needs to be factored into it's use.  After all, it's in Wills' contract that he only has to block for 3.5 seconds per play.

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, nickers said:

Like yourself... This has always been a big no no for me... Especially after seeing Jim Jenkins Implode with the Run and shoot in college..I think If I remember correctly.. Him and Mouse Davis were pretty much the authors of the "Run and Gun" "Run and Shoot" style offenses in the late 80's , early 90's.. Was never really a fan.. I think Warren Moon ran it pretty well.. But he also threw more picks.. I would have to go back and check out the #'s to verify that.. I was also a Moon fan.. Helluva QB.. His only problem.. He choked when it counted much like Donovan McNabb... Both great QB's... Both couldn't win a sausage to save their collective souls... For me... a damn good RB has always been a QB's best friend... While a guy like Leroy Hoard was not elite... He played his role well.. And I've always had respect for hard working backs like himself, Larry Kinnebrew and OJ Anderson.. They may not be flashy... But they were every bit as important to an offense as anybody...

Lindy Infante did some 1 back sets when he went with multiple Receivers in 86.  He loved to flank/slot/wing RB Herman Fontenot outside and either use Kevin Mack or Earnest Byner as the single back in the multiple receiver spread.  Bernie could do the quick reads.  Fontenot could go to the flats or hook zones when defenses wanted to blitz Bernie and the single back could either do a swing pass outside or Bernie could check into a draw.  Infante and Bernie were an absolute nightmare for the defenses wanting to blitz.  As I posted somewhere else, the RBs (Mack, Byner, Dickey, and Fontenot combined for 123 receptions) in that 86 season where the Browns went 12-4.  He loved tp spread the horizontally side sideline which opened seams downfield for Langhorne and Slaughter.  Brian Brennan did a lot of work between the hook zones.  We also had Ozzie that could run some WR or TE routes (he was an All American WR at Bama).  

Just looking at the volume of sacks Watson took in Houston - I don't know if he's a quick read kind of QB that would flourish with empty back sets.  1 back sets can at least place a wing back 1 yard over and 1 yard back to the left of Wills to help chip the edge rusher prior to running a short route to the flats or adjacent hook zone. Meanwhile the single back can block, run the ball or take a quick pitch or swing pass outside.  I'm hoping Wills improves this year to the extent he's reliable and consistent.  He's got the frame; but does he have the inner chest?  If he doesn't, will empty backfields be a smart way to protect the big investment at QB?  

I can't wait to see what the design of the offense looks like.  

[Flugel]

43 minutes ago, Orion said:

It takes any and all threat of the run away...so I'm not a big fan of it with 3 yards or less needed.  And please don't be thinking that you're gonna be running my kazillian dollar QB out of that set!

Of course the Tom Brady Patriots would just nickel & dime ya right down the field with that horizontal slant game that Tia was mentioning.  

And how well the OL can handle the defense of the week needs to be factored into it's use.  After all, it's in Wills' contract that he only has to block for 3.5 seconds per play.

Well said! Looks like we have some similar concerns.

[ballpeen]

9 hours ago, nickers said:

Like yourself... This has always been a big no no for me... Especially after seeing Jim Jenkins Implode with the Run and shoot in college..I think If I remember correctly.. Him and Mouse Davis were pretty much the authors of the "Run and Gun" "Run and Shoot" style offenses in the late 80's , early 90's.. Was never really a fan.. I think Warren Moon ran it pretty well.. But he also threw more picks.. I would have to go back and check out the #'s to verify that.. I was also a Moon fan.. Helluva QB.. His only problem.. He choked when it counted much like Donovan McNabb... Both great QB's... Both couldn't win a sausage to save their collective souls... For me... a damn good RB has always been a QB's best friend... While a guy like Leroy Hoard was not elite... He played his role well.. And I've always had respect for hard working backs like himself, Larry Kinnebrew and OJ Anderson.. They may not be flashy... But they were every bit as important to an offense as anybody...

Were the increased picks a result of the system or the fact he threw more passes?  I mean, if you played a game with zero passing attempts, you wouldn't have any picks, right?

 

Now to be on point, I am not saying we are going to be 0 backs a huge amount of the time.  We will just see more.  Chubb is still going to get his carries.  They may go down some, but nothing drastic.  As players age, it is normal for a coach to try to save a star player from excess wear.  Without looking up the numbers, Chubb has been getting around 280-300 carries a year, and most of those were in 3 qtrs a game.  It seemed that Hunt got a big portion of the 3rd qtr carries.

 

I'd still expect Chubb to get 250ish carries.  I am just not sure that Ford is going to get Hunts carries.  He will get some.  So will Watson.  Moore will probably get the other plays that a back would have gotten.  On some he may line up in the backfield, but i doubt he gets many as a straight handoff.

 

As long as we are gaining yards and winning games it doesn't matter how we get them. Right?

[nickers]

40 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

Were the increased picks a result of the system or the fact he threw more passes?  I mean, if you played a game with zero passing attempts, you wouldn't have any picks, right?

 

Now to be on point, I am not saying we are going to be 0 backs a huge amount of the time.  We will just see more.  Chubb is still going to get his carries.  They may go down some, but nothing drastic.  As players age, it is normal for a coach to try to save a star player from excess wear.  Without looking up the numbers, Chubb has been getting around 280-300 carries a year, and most of those were in 3 qtrs a game.  It seemed that Hunt got a big portion of the 3rd qtr carries.

 

I'd still expect Chubb to get 250ish carries.  I am just not sure that Ford is going to get Hunts carries.  He will get some.  So will Watson.  Moore will probably get the other plays that a back would have gotten.  On some he may line up in the backfield, but i doubt he gets many as a straight handoff.

 

As long as we are gaining yards and winning games it doesn't matter how we get them. Right?

Well it will matter if Watson gets injured.. Then it will matter.. Hes not even a big dude... He's barely one inch taller than Mayfield.. This isnt a big guy like Steve McNair or Big Ben were talking about here.. I don't like My QB's running all over the place regardless.. I like them winning from the pocket..

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, nickers said:

Well it will matter if Watson gets injured.. Then it will matter.. Hes not even a big dude... He's barely one inch taller than Mayfield.. This isnt a big guy like Steve McNair or Big Ben were talking about here.. I don't like My QB's running all over the place regardless.. I like them winning from the pocket..

Not only that, but he doesn't have Lamar Jackson type of speed for us to even considering using him like Jackson.  How often has Lamar Jackson been healthy in the 2nd half of seasons in the last 2-3 years or so?  Those hits really add-up after the QBs have been doing it for 4-5 years or more.  We want him mobile (and he is), but the Browns have a GREAT RB and usually quality depth behind him.   I think a guy like Joe Burrow is great at knowing when to tuck it up and run.  I'm okay with that too because he doesn't over-use it.  

The last season Watson played for the really crappy organization in Houston, he was the #1 rated passer in the AFC with a completion % of 70% and a TD:INT ratio of 33:7. I'm only showing that because it reminded me of him surgically removing Ohio State's defense from the BCS playoff blowout.  He was very accurate.   The reason his last season in Houston was the only one he didn't lead his team to the playoffs of the 3 years he suited up was they had an aging defense with injuries. JJ Watt's-his-name was playing defense like the lyrics "well I'm half the man I used to be."  Ok Nicks, what's the name of that song and the band jamming it?   

Anyway, I think all of the countless moves, draft picks and the DC upgrade to Schwartz this offseason will give our offense enough margin of error to win the type of games the Browns couldn't win last year.  I think our Special Teams will perform better as well under Bubba.

We'll see...

[nickers]

51 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Not only that, but he doesn't have Lamar Jackson type of speed for us to even considering using him like Jackson.  How often has Lamar Jackson been healthy in the 2nd half of seasons in the last 2-3 years or so?  Those hits really add-up after the QBs have been doing it for 4-5 years or more.  We want him mobile (and he is), but the Browns have a GREAT RB and usually quality depth behind him.   I think a guy like Joe Burrow is great at knowing when to tuck it up and run.  I'm okay with that too because he doesn't over-use it.  

The last season Watson played for the really crappy organization in Houston, he was the #1 rated passer in the AFC with a completion % of 70% and a TD:INT ratio of 33:7. I'm only showing that because it reminded me of him surgically removing Ohio State's defense from the BCS playoff blowout.  He was very accurate.   The reason his last season in Houston was the only one he didn't lead his team to the playoffs of the 3 years he suited up was they had an aging defense with injuries. JJ Watt's-his-name was playing defense like the lyrics "well I'm half the man I used to be."  Ok Nicks, what's the name of that song and the band jamming it?   

Anyway, I think all of the countless moves, draft picks and the DC upgrade to Schwartz this offseason will give our offense enough margin of error to win the type of games the Browns couldn't win last year.  I think our Special Teams will perform better as well under Bubba.

We'll see...

I believe that was Stone Temple Pilots but I could be wrong lol..

[ballpeen]

8 hours ago, nickers said:

Well it will matter if Watson gets injured.. Then it will matter.. Hes not even a big dude... He's barely one inch taller than Mayfield.. This isnt a big guy like Steve McNair or Big Ben were talking about here.. I don't like My QB's running all over the place regardless.. I like them winning from the pocket..

Come on Nick.  Of course it will hurt if Watsons gets hurt.  If he gets hurt in game 2, I seriously doubt we can lean on the running game to produce 10 more wins.  Be real here.

This dovetails with a comment by Flugs:  I don't know how to look this up, even if it can, but I'd bet more QB's over the last 10 years have been seriously hurt behind the LOS rather than past the LOS.  The pocket can be a death trap.   Even in the last 3-4 years.

 

Any half way decent coach tells the QB that unless it is a do or die type situation in a do or die type a game at a do or die moment, don't try to milk the last 2-3 yards.  Just give it up.  If they do stupid shit like a few of our's did and think they could run, well ok, that isn't good.

 

Watson isn't like those guys, he can run.  I don't want to see him triple flipping towards the end zone and getting hurt like McGown or like Baker running and think he was a power runner.

[nickers]

13 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

Come on Nick.  Of course it will hurt if Watsons gets hurt.  If he gets hurt in game 2, I seriously doubt we can lean on the running game to produce 10 more wins.  Be real here.

This dovetails with a comment by Flugs:  I don't know how to look this up, even if it can, but I'd bet more QB's over the last 10 years have been seriously hurt behind the LOS rather than past the LOS.  The pocket can be a death trap.   Even in the last 3-4 years.

 

Any half way decent coach tells the QB that unless it is a do or die type situation in a do or die type a game at a do or die moment, don't try to milk the last 2-3 yards.  Just give it up.  If they do stupid shit like a few of our's did and think they could run, well ok, that isn't good.

 

Watson isn't like those guys, he can run.  I don't want to see him triple flipping towards the end zone and getting hurt like McGown or like Baker running and think he was a power runner.

Ooookay!

[ballpeen]

On 6/27/2023 at 6:30 AM, nickers said:

Well it will matter if Watson gets injured.. Then it will matter.. Hes not even a big dude... He's barely one inch taller than Mayfield.. This isnt a big guy like Steve McNair or Big Ben were talking about here.. I don't like My QB's running all over the place regardless.. I like them winning from the pocket..

Maybe so, but less and less, the game isn't played that way anymore.  I'd also add that i would bet that more qb's have sustained serious injury inside the pocket than outside the pocket.  I don't know how one would prove that so it is probably a moot point.

[calfoxwc]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:27 AM, ballpeen said:

Maybe so, but less and less, the game isn't played that way anymore.  I'd also add that i would bet that more qb's have sustained serious injury inside the pocket than outside the pocket.  I don't know how one would prove that so it is probably a moot point.

I wonder if there are just a lot more pocket passers than scramblers at qb. Don't know...but

https://www.footballoutsiders.com › ramblings › 2014 › classic-pocket-passers-versus-mobile-quarterbacks

Classic Pocket Passers Versus Mobile Quarterbacks

Overall, Manning went 4-of-5 for just 21 yards and one touchdown on those attempts. Wilson and Kaepernick combined for 37 out-of-pocket passes, almost one-quarter of their combined 150 attempts. Kaepernick was extremely successful on the move. He completed 12-of-20 attempts for 141 yards and two touchdowns.

 

watching Mahomes play......

• https://www.thegridirongeek.com › athlete-at-quarterback-mobile-qb-future-of-nfl

  Is This the Death of the 'Pocket Passer' QB? We're Now in the 'Athlete ...

  The 3 Types of Quarterbacks I believe that there are three types of quarterbacks. The first is the already mentioned pocket passer. Think of Tom Brady, Bart Starr, Drew Brees, Joe Montana. The second is mobile quarterbacks. They are pass-first QBs, but are athletic enough to run for yards and escape pressure through running.

[Dutch Oven]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:27 AM, ballpeen said:

Maybe so, but less and less, the game isn't played that way anymore.  I'd also add that i would bet that more qb's have sustained serious injury inside the pocket than outside the pocket.  I don't know how one would prove that so it is probably a moot point.

Probably the most famous QB injury ever was Joe Theisman's gruesome leg pretzel on MNF, in the pocket. 

I still think to win it all in the NFL, you have to have a QB who can win from the pocket. Doesn't mean that he can't run if need be, but if he can't pass well and read defenses well from the pocket, he will eventually get exposed.

[Orion]

3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I still think to win it all in the NFL, you have to have a QB who can win from the pocket. Doesn't mean that he can't run if need be, but if he can't pass well and read defenses well from the pocket, he will eventually get exposed.

John Elway, Steve Young.   Tough guys to beat.

[Dutch Oven]

21 minutes ago, Orion said:

John Elway, Steve Young.   Tough guys to beat.

Guys who could run but could stand in the pocket, read a defense and complete passes.

Once Elway and Young figured that part out, they won Super Bowls. 

[Orion]

3 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Guys who could run but could stand in the pocket, read a defense and complete passes.

Those are the toughest QB's to beat.  They read the defense, take the snap and continue to read the D,  if their target(s) get open, they fire it, if the internal clock says Time To Go, they run really fast.  Bernie had all that stuff right up to the point of taking off and run.  

This is what I want from Watson.  Play the pocket...but don't die there.  Get out, run, get down, get OB or as Sam Rutigliano would say, simply throw it away.

[ballpeen]

7 hours ago, Orion said:

John Elway, Steve Young.   Tough guys to beat.

They were.  They also retired almost 25 years ago.  I'd also argue that for the times, those guys were running QB's.  That was a huge part of what made them so dynamic.

[Dutch Oven]

2 hours ago, ballpeen said:

They were.  They also retired almost 25 years ago.  I'd also argue that for the times, those guys were running QB's.  That was a huge part of what made them so dynamic.

You would argue?

NO WAY! 😉

[Flugel]

9 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Guys who could run but could stand in the pocket, read a defense and complete passes.

Once Elway and Young figured that part out, they won Super Bowls. 

Nicely put!  Let's hope the Big Man on the blind side of QB (Wills) makes standing in the pocket doable.  If he does, I love what's possible for Watson.  

Sometimes we need to remember we're only as good as what the organization puts in place for their QBs. Once upon a time a ton of money was invested in the Titanic - only to steer that sucker right into a huge glacier.  "Yeah but it was dark outside!"     Try to imagine how dark it can get inside the pocket if you don't have the right man on the edge protecting the edge the blind side of QB.  The good news is this QB only has 1 blind side.  It IS Cleveland so I do have to say the outrageous.

All those years we had a HOF career unfolding at Left Tackle, our FO couldn't tell the difference between a Brandon Weeden and a Russell Wilson leading up to the draft.