Icecube

So, refute the assertions, specifically.

You got that part right. It's just not that important to me. These are just anonymous names in cyberspace about a sport that, come the end of the day, isn't that meaningful. It is entertainment, as is posting on sports message boards. I don't have the time or desire to "prove things" on the level of a court of law. As a matter of fact. I would normally base my assessment purely on the "eye test" and leave it at that, not even bothering to go into data such as QB rating. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone is allowed to support previous opinions. But at the end of the day, of you use a first overall pick on any player, they really should be at least top 5 amongst their position by their 3rd season, not even in a debate about being at least average. If you think Baker is better than all but 4 QBs, then God bless, son. You have the right to your opinion. Mahomes, Russell, Rogers, Brady, Big Ben, Dak, Brees, Wentz, Carr, Herbert, Murray, etc. may not agree, but hey man, we all have our opinions.

Not only did they just beat a very good TN team, they've been right in every game so far but one. If their coach is at least decent, and Mike Brown can say enough out of the way, Cinci can at least ascend to out of the "clown" realm, into something at least comparable to the earlier Red Rifle era, where they had 5 winning seasons, or the Palmer era, where they were a playoff team, or the Boomer years, where they were a legit winning club. If I had to guess, I'd predict Burrow will go down as a better QB than Baker, over both careers. But a lot of football to be played before we know. Both are 1st picks overall. Will both be deemed worthy of it?

I applaud you for your honesty and insight. Some fans are freaked out by the truth.

I already said it was not the perfect rating system at the very top. And, you go on to admit Baker is realistically around 20th...there are 32 starting QBs, plus a few who later became starters later. If Baker is 20th, that would put him at below average. So, while claiming to disagree with the premise you then conclude the same thing - that Baker is below average.

It's funny you want to lean on "facts" when they don't support your position.

It's hard to put him above 16 other QBs. But the 2nd half of the season may tell a lot. But is he better than the QBs the last 20 years in Cleveland? I'd say so.

Well, that all sounds great, now, is Baker average or above or below? He's below. That's not saying he's one of the worst, but #1 overall pick in the draft worthy?

I don't think you're inherently wrong in your thinking, just that I'd have more than 3 QBs ahead of Baker, even considering long term impact (i.e. QBs too old to help 5 years from now). For one, if you are considering things in that "lense," you may have to consider the QBs still in college as well, such as Lawrence. It's just that I still can't help to think that they will need better QB play to have a real shot at rings. And I don't know if Baker is ever going to achieve "franchise QB" status, which you usually need. And when you take a player first overall in the draft, you likely would want that player to be best at his position by 3 years in, or at least top 3. I think we can all agree with that.

Yea, that would be all you need to know, in your current capacity. "Just be good enough to hover slightly over .500" and you will be content with that. I wonder if rings are a possibility with standards set there? The Pats and the Steelers didn't win 6 rings with such a mentality. But I will say this: 5-3 sure as hell beats the crap out of 0-8 (on the way to 0-16 or 1-15). Don't get it twisted.

By definition, to be average Baker would be somewhere around the 15th or 16th best QB in the NFL. Do you think he is? Let's look. By the ratings (and I realize you can argue the ratings alone doesn't always tell the full story but it's a good start)... R. Wilson Mahomes Rogers Carr Tannehill D. Watson Brees Herbert Brady J. Allen Big Ben Dak Kyle Allen Bridgewater N. Mullens M. Ryan Rivers Fitzpatrick Stafford Goff Minshew L. Jackson K. Murray Jimmy G Cousins Burrow Baker Tua Kaskins Foles Driskel Tyrod Taylor Dan Jones Cam Newton Wentz That puts him at 27, which is far below average. And looking at the order of the list, it passes my eye test as far as being accurate in determining quality of play. I'd move a few up or down a few spots, but it's pretty on the $. So even if you can argue Baker maybe a few spots better, he's still around the 25th best or so. Is that acceptable for the 1st pick overall in the draft halfway through his 3rd season? If the Browns were told,"By his 3rd season, Baker will be the 27th rated passer" would they have taken him #1 overall? Of course, I am in no way suggesting now would be the time for a change, no way. He gets at least this season to show what he has got, barring him just falling of a cliff, especially considering we have to see of the passing game blossoms without forcing it to OBJ so often. (But others say the passing attack will suffer sans OBJ.) The 2nd half of this season is huge in determining Baker's future. As things stand, his last year option is probably safe, but if he doesn't ascend from where he is now, a big, new franchise QB deal is not likely. Baker, it's time. You are at a crossroad.

Old men from Akron.....you gotta love it. You really need to get out of that place for at least a while and experience how life is in other places. Maybe your pink poop problem will clear up. Akron went to hell as big rubber all shut down; the mass layoffs crushed the economy. It reminds me of when the Cleveland's flats just imploded. Get those meds checked!

Colin Cowherd, Skip Bayless, Jim Rome, and of course not always for any of them.

I know what you were trying for but it's "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

I'm sure you'd like that but I don't roll that way. No offense, live your life as you wish as long as you don't harm anyone.

Yea, I agree, it doesn't have to hinder his future. I just hope he finds a groove like he did vs. Cinci where he sees the whole field and finds the open guy, like the best QBs learn to do, like a Montana or Wilson.

I agree with this. But even the Steelers traded for an ILB because they were so decimated at the position, and that made sense, since they have a real shot at adding a ring this season. And we don't know if the Browns have at least been asking around for possible trades or not; maybe nothing worthwhile was out there.

Personally, I don't care about your pink poop, and you might want to give your doc a stool sample and see what's up with that. OBJ is what happens when the owner thinks he is a football man. Mr. Jimmy is not. According to Colin's inside source, OBJ may have played his last game in a Brown's jersey. Don't kill the messenger.

I'm not sure OBJ has "boosted Baker's development." I feel Baker was pressured into finding OBJ on a lot of plays where OBJ was not the open WR. To me, that would hinder BM's development. But when the bossman spent all that $ and draft capitol on a player, he is not going to be pleased when that player doesn't work out. So, I am pretty sure there were meetings where Mr. Jimmy told Freddie and Stef (separately, obviously) - in no uncertain terms - "Get the ball to OBJ." But, it just wasn't meant to be. Again, I'm not even blaming OBJ as it lies. He's a very talented player, but it just didn't connect. They were not sympatico. And Colin stated many times no one was really to blame (I would lean towards blaming Mr. Jimmy for making a bad decision to begin with). How would things be different, if, for example, instead of trading for OBJ, they kept those draft picks and ended up grabbing a, I don't know, an A.J. Brown, D.K. Metcalf or Chase Claypool? What would that team look like? How much better would the chemistry be? I know some of the old timers are dispersing spittle over even the thought of OBJ not working out. Hey, the world isn't perfect. Look at the clusterF--k elections.

Listen, you're from Akron, not the most sophisticated place in the world. But confusing accuracy for hatred is still not acceptable. I know, I know, from your perspective, the world is dark, dirty, gray and hate-filled. But your perspective is not the fault of others. So, you're fit for a straight jacket because I was right, that's YOUR problem. And get your meds adjusted. Something is way off.

I was high on Rosen, thought he could be special. Don't think so now.

They were losing with Dak, just worse now.

Does that frighten the Internet tough guy?

I'm sorry if Colin has been on the $ on the Browns, the butt hurt is strong with this one.

Yea, and that's YOUR opinion. I'm not interested in your pink poop. I'm right, you're wrong. LIve with it.