Trayvon Martin

[nunboy]

After all, Zimmerman has a right, as long as he's got the legal permits, to carry his gun out into the street with him. That's not "intent to kill" at all. Even following the kid doesn't prove "intent to kill." This is where your argument falls apart, in my opinion.

well of course he has the right to go out into the street but when he started a confrontation by following, and what I would perceive as menacing Martin, while in possession of his gun he loses the ability to claim defense and I believe Martin actually had right to stand his ground and defend himself. after all Martin did not know this guy or his motives. he was followed by truck and then on foot by Zimmerman. Martin could have thought he was being robbed or attacked or hell maybe he thought it was stranger danger for all we know. some random guy no badge following me around at night. could well say that I felt threatened myself and reacted accordingly. except in my case I would also have a gun.

[nunboy]

Well, eh, sort of. It's not intent to kill in both situations. That's what I think you're missing. You'd still want to investigate the race angle because it would still help you determine intent, or cause. However, in the larger sense, as Americans interpret this, do you not see any reason to introduce the racial angle? Do you not see why legions of black (and white, Hispanic, etc.) Americans are completely unsurprised that this happened to this kid, and are out marching and voicing their displeasure at what is a common feature of being black in America - being a suspect for no good reason at all?

 

There's a term for a "crime" called "Walking while black" for a reason. There's also "Shopping while black."

 

But again, let's not mention any of this. It frightens the locals.

first line was a separate response sorry.

I believe Zimmerman's intent was to detain Martin, and when Martin did not understand the intent or mistook it for something more malicious things got out of hand fast and Martin died. If Zimmerman had simply let the police do their job this would not have been.

[heckofajobbrownie]

I don't really know what happened. Public opinion is now being steered by anonymous leaks out of both camps, and those aren't exactly reliable. Zimmerman seems guilty of being a wannabe idiot, and yes, making this happen. What else he's guilty of we don't know yet. I don't suspect he'll face a hate crime charge, however, since the bar to prove a hate crime is set pretty high.

[nunboy]

I don't really know what happened. Public opinion is now being steered by anonymous leaks out of both camps, and those aren't exactly reliable. Zimmerman seems guilty of being a wannabe idiot, and yes, making this happen. What else he's guilty of we don't know yet. I don't suspect he'll face a hate crime charge, however, since the bar to prove a hate crime is set pretty high.

pretty much agree, of course with the exception of my nit pick on hate crimes

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Zimmerman defended himself against someone taller and younger who hit him in the face and pounded his head against the ground. Deadly force was justified. End of story.

[The Cysko Kid]

After all, Zimmerman has a right, as long as he's got the legal permits, to carry his gun out into the street with him. That's not "intent to kill" at all. Even following the kid doesn't prove "intent to kill." This is where your argument falls apart, in my opinion.

 

 

Hate crimes should be abolished. Dead is dead regardless of motive. Do they put a guy more to death because his victims were black?

[The Cysko Kid]

Zimmerman defended himself against someone taller and younger who hit him in the face and pounded his head against the ground. Deadly force was justified. End of story.

 

He absolutely put himself there, therefore he was aggressive not defensive.

[heckofajobbrownie]

You hear that, fellas? An anonymous leak from the police department, reported in the media, say this is what happened. So we've settled it.

 

Glad we've gotten that out of the way.

 

Of course, another leak says the lead investigator didn't buy Zimmerman's story and wanted to charge him with manslaughter, but was overruled. So apparently the investigation continues.

[MLD Woody]

Zimmerman defended himself against someone taller and younger who hit him in the face and pounded his head against the ground. Deadly force was justified. End of story.

 

If you can say Zimmerman was defending himself then I say Martin was defending himself originally.

 

You can claim self defense from someones self defense you started

 

 

If I attack you with a knife, than you fight back and overpower me and attack me, I can't then shoot you and say it was self defense

[VaporTrail]

If you can say Zimmerman was defending himself then I say Martin was defending himself originally.

 

You can claim self defense from someones self defense you started

 

 

If I attack you with a knife, than you fight back and overpower me and attack me, I can't then shoot you and say it was self defense

 

Well, apparently you can.

[MLD Woody]

Well, apparently you can.

 

I just don't get how you can entice someone to attack you and then kill them and call it self defense.

 

 

 

2 notes:

 

1) I don't know what the video is saying about the Patriot Act and IDC, this was the only clip of this I could find.

2) It is a much different situation but it still kinda fits and is funny

[The Cysko Kid]

http://fox8.com/2012/03/27/exclusive-student-with-epilepsy-stomped-by-classmate/

 

Of course this won't be a hate crime because the infectious piece if human excrement commiting the crime is black. You can bet your bottom dollar if a white kid was stomping the shit out of a black with epilepsy it would be. Care to defend this heck?

[MLD Woody]

http://fox8.com/2012/03/27/exclusive-student-with-epilepsy-stomped-by-classmate/

 

Of course this won't be a hate crime because the infectious piece if human excrement commiting the crime is black. You can bet your bottom dollar if a white kid was stomping the shit out of a black with epilepsy it would be. Care to defend this heck?

 

 

1) We went over this, just because someone doesn't bring up every single incident of some crime or racism or something, doesn't mean they can reference that item in a debate or as valid reasoning

2) I don't see where this was a hate crime. I think the whole hate crime idea isn't the best idea to begin with but I don't think this kid was beaten up because he was white

3) What does this have to do with the Martin Zimmerman situation. If you are trying to compare the two in some attempt to lessen what Zimmerman did its not working. You can't burn down a mosque as a christian and then defend yourself by saying muslims burn down churches...

 

 

I'll say it again. FUCKING STOP TALKING ABOUT RACE THEN. White, black, purple, w/e, there is nothing that can justify what Zimmerman did.

 

Some groups will say it was all about race. Great, good for them, that doesn't mean that if you disagree with them you must automatically disagree with the premise that Zimmerman is guilty...

 

God, some of you on here. Its like you think that if you disagree with someone about something you must disagree with every belief they have as much as you can and attack anything they might say instead of learning from it.

[The Cysko Kid]

Woody, what does your clip of south park have to do with the martin zimmerman situation? What exactly?

 

also, because he's black and you're liberal it's not a hate crime. No kid is ever beaten up for being white, correct? The kids are saying "make sure he dies". Im sure it was all in good fun. Your disgusting liberal bias is hanging out. Better tuck that back in.

[The Cysko Kid]

1) We went over this, just because someone doesn't bring up every single incident of some crime or racism or something, doesn't mean they can reference that item in a debate or as valid reasoning

2) I don't see where this was a hate crime. I think the whole hate crime idea isn't the best idea to begin with but I don't think this kid was beaten up because he was white

3) What does this have to do with the Martin Zimmerman situation. If you are trying to compare the two in some attempt to lessen what Zimmerman did its not working. You can't burn down a mosque as a christian and then defend yourself by saying muslims burn down churches...

 

 

I'll say it again. FUCKING STOP TALKING ABOUT RACE THEN. White, black, purple, w/e, there is nothing that can justify what Zimmerman did.

 

Some groups will say it was all about race. Great, good for them, that doesn't mean that if you disagree with them you must automatically disagree with the premise that Zimmerman is guilty...

 

God, some of you on here. Its like you think that if you disagree with someone about something you must disagree with every belief they have as much as you can and attack anything they might say instead of learning from it.

 

Don't ever try to condescend to me woody, you're in no way in that position. We 'Went over' nothing. Maybe you should try reading, engineer. Ive never once, ever tried to justify what George Zimmerman did. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of "hate" crimes. You need to go back and read the last four pages of this thread before interjecting some asinine comment.

[MLD Woody]

Woody, what does your clip of south park have to do with the martin zimmerman situation? What exactly?

 

also, because he's black and you're liberal it's not a hate crime. No kid is ever beaten up for being white, correct? The kids are saying "make sure he dies". Im sure it was all in good fun. Your disgusting liberal bias is hanging out. Better tuck that back in.

 

1) not liberal, idk how many times I have to say this. I'm sorry the world is not black and white

2) I said I didn't think it was a hate crime because I didn't see any reason to believe it was. Just because someone commits a crime against someone of another race I don't yell "hate crime!" There would need to be some evidence the person committing the crime is actually racist. In this case, Zimmerman called Martin a coon and said something like "they always get away." Again, whether it is a hate crime or not shouldn't matter in this case, Zimmerman committed a crime regardless, but the element of race definitely played a role.

 

3) In the Zimmerman situation people want to say he was acting in self defense. That would mean Zimmerman went out looking for problems, got it, and then shot Martin. That's like going out into the forest with hunting equipment and enticing an animal to charge at you so you can shoot it.

[The Cysko Kid]

1) not liberal, idk how many times I have to say this. I'm sorry the world is not black and white

2) I said I didn't think it was a hate crime because I didn't see any reason to believe it was. Just because someone commits a crime against someone of another race I don't yell "hate9 crime!" There would need to be some evidence the person committing the crime is actually racist. In this case, Zimmerman called Martin a coon and said something like "they always get away." Again, whether it is a hate crime or not shouldn't matter in this case, Zimmerman committed a crime regardless, but the element of race definitely played a role.

 

3) In the Zimmerman situation people want to say he was acting in self defense. That would mean Zimmerman went out looking for problems, got it, and then shot Martin. That's like going out into the forest with hunting equipment and enticing an animal to charge at you so you can shoot it.

 

2. I said earlier that hate crimes should be abolished as ridiculous. I'm simply posting a link to a crime that I firmly believe would be called a hate crime if the roles were reversed. Do you not think that's true?

 

3. Once again please read the thread up to this point. I never once said zimmerman acted in self defense. I called him a piece if shit murderer, and said it was outrageous he was going to get away with murdering someone's minor child at some point. Those are close to the same thing.

 

3a. Are you implying black people are animals?

[MLD Woody]

2. I said earlier that hate crimes should be abolished as ridiculous. I'm simply posting a link to a crime that I firmly believe would be called a hate crime if the roles were reversed. Do you not think that's true?

 

3. Once again please read the thread up to this point. I never once said zimmerman acted in self defense. I called him a piece if shit murderer, and said it was outrageous he was going to get away with murdering someone's minor child at some point. Those are close to the same thing.

 

3a. Are you implying black people are animals?

 

3a) oh yeah you know it

 

2) No, and I answered that already.

[heckofajobbrownie]

http://fox8.com/2012/03/27/exclusive-student-with-epilepsy-stomped-by-classmate/

 

Of course this won't be a hate crime because the infectious piece if human excrement commiting the crime is black. You can bet your bottom dollar if a white kid was stomping the shit out of a black with epilepsy it would be. Care to defend this heck?

 

I hope that post made you feel good.

 

I'll ignore the poorly constructed, third grade level attempt at provocation. I'm guessing from your back-and-forth with Woody that you think it makes a really good point. I fail to see what it is.

 

To put it another way, everyone's heard the "if a white kid did this" construction before. It's not all that interesting. And if you do use it, at least find a situation where the attack is racially motivated in the reverse, and not attributed to a dispute over a wrestling match. At least then you'd have an analogy instead of what you have, which is ...whatever that was.

 

But to answer your question, yes, as a parent and as a human being, I love it when a kid stomps another kid, especially when he has epilepsy, and I'm always ready to defend it.

 

...Seriously?

[calfoxwc]

BS. A whole giant mountain of it.

 

We still don't have all the facts. The kid was 17. The guy with the gun followed him. I think that was a mistake. If

 

I were going to keep an eye on somebody, he wouldn't know I was following him.

 

It's seemingly no hate crime. Apparently, he following the kid down the street, and however the

 

confrontation happened, (his friend says, that he said he went to get back into his truck, and the kid asked him if he

 

had a problem, and he said "no"... and the kid says, "well, you do now", and punched him in the face and all hell broke loose.

 

Sometime after that, the gun was fought over, and it went off and the kid was killed.

 

There's no stupidass "murder" when it was self defense. The guy shouldn't have been openly tailing him.

 

but the kid should have just kept to minding HIS own business. And, even if he wanted to argue with this

 

would be detective with a gun,how did it come to violence?

 

With a gun, the shooter didn't start punching the 6'3" football player because he was following him.

 

All this gleeful op for political base activation (the black voter base) is pretty sick, and sad.

 

My guess is, the kid was up to no good, and was casing houses to break into. And he couldn't pull it off because

 

of the guy tailing him. And that got him po'd, and he attacked the guy in the truck.

 

But why the guy was out of his truck in the first place, is strange.

 

But Obamao is a dirtbag for immediately trying to gain political racial influence for votes before, AGAIN, he didn't

 

know squat about the truth. Neither does Heck. But he and woodpecker are delighted to make hay forObamao over it.

 

Sad. Really stupid ass sad and sick. So is the calling for the shooter "dead or alive" for a million dollars.".

 

Worse yet. so is Holder's, and Obamao's silence. Now, Obamao wants to institgate a race war, AND a class war.

 

Nobody can seriously defend this scum and the rest of his ild anymore.

[MLD Woody]

BS. A whole giant mountain of it.

 

We still don't have all the facts. The kid was 17. The guy with the gun followed him. I think that was a mistake. If

 

I were going to keep an eye on somebody, he wouldn't know I was following him.

 

It's seemingly no hate crime. Apparently, he following the kid down the street, and however the

 

confrontation happened, (his friend says, that he said he went to get back into his truck, and the kid asked him if he

 

had a problem, and he said "no"... and the kid says, "well, you do now", and punched him in the face and all hell broke loose.

 

Sometime after that, the gun was fought over, and it went off and the kid was killed.

 

There's no stupidass "murder" when it was self defense. The guy shouldn't have been openly tailing him.

 

but the kid should have just kept to minding HIS own business. And, even if he wanted to argue with this

 

would be detective with a gun,how did it come to violence?

 

With a gun, the shooter didn't start punching the 6'3" football player because he was following him.

 

All this gleeful op for political base activation (the black voter base) is pretty sick, and sad.

 

My guess is, the kid was up to no good, and was casing houses to break into. And he couldn't pull it off because

 

of the guy tailing him. And that got him po'd, and he attacked the guy in the truck.

 

But why the guy was out of his truck in the first place, is strange.

 

But Obamao is a dirtbag for immediately trying to gain political racial influence for votes before, AGAIN, he didn't

 

know squat about the truth. Neither does Heck. But he and woodpecker are delighted to make hay forObamao over it.

 

Sad. Really stupid ass sad and sick. So is the calling for the shooter "dead or alive" for a million dollars.".

 

Worse yet. so is Holder's, and Obamao's silence. Now, Obamao wants to institgate a race war, AND a class war.

 

Nobody can seriously defend this scum and the rest of his ild anymore.

 

You know how ridiculous all of that sounds?

We don't know anything but you know exactly what happened?

 

This is my favorite part

 

"Apparently, he following the kid down the street, and however the

 

confrontation happened, (his friend says, that he said he went to get back into his truck, and the kid asked him if he

 

had a problem, and he said "no"... and the kid says, "well, you do now", and punched him in the face and all hell broke loose.

 

Sometime after that, the gun was fought over, and it went off and the kid was killed."

 

 

are you fucking kidding me?

 

 

 

 

Cal you never cease to amaze me.

 

I think if Obama said his new favorite food was a burger a bunch of right wing websites, blogs and Fox News could convince you burgers are evil and socialist...

[medicineman]

Oh I get it just because you think it was on Fox News it can't be true?

[MLD Woody]

Oh I get it just because you think it was on Fox News it can't be true?

 

No it just fits with the whole conservative thing

[Westside Steve]

You know how ridiculous all of that sounds?

We don't know anything but you know exactly what happened?

 

This is my favorite part

 

"Apparently, he following the kid down the street, and however the

 

confrontation happened, (his friend says, that he said he went to get back into his truck, and the kid asked him if he

 

had a problem, and he said "no"... and the kid says, "well, you do now", and punched him in the face and all hell broke loose.

 

Sometime after that, the gun was fought over, and it went off and the kid was killed."

 

 

are you fucking kidding me?

 

 

 

 

Cal you never cease to amaze me.

 

I think if Obama said his new favorite food was a burger a bunch of right wing websites, blogs and Fox News could convince you burgers are evil and socialist...

Woody, I don't know what fox news has to do with this but let me ask you, seriously, exactly what do you believe happened? Or anyone here actually.

I don't think there is nearly enough hard evidence to support any actual time line.

Still all of us, myself included, seem to want to blame zimmerman for something.

 

WSS

[MLD Woody]

We don't know exactly what happened but we should still be able to distinguish what likely happened and didn't

 

good example is Zimmerman friends account of what happened. Do you really believe a 140 17 year old, after buying some candy and being followed by Zimmerman decided he was then going to all of a sudden follow Zimmerman to his car, so some kinda of catch phrase, and then overpower the much bigger man to the point where Zimmermans only reasonable action was to use deadly force to save his own life? That sounds crazy.

 

We may not know everything there is about science and religion, but I can use common sense and pick a side. Same deal

 

 

actually I think that was a poor example cuz we might get side tracked

[Westside Steve]

We don't know exactly what happened but we should still be able to distinguish what likely happened and didn't

 

good example is Zimmerman friends account of what happened. Do you really believe a 140 17 year old, after buying some candy and being followed by Zimmerman decided he was then going to all of a sudden follow Zimmerman to his car, so some kinda of catch phrase, and then overpower the much bigger man to the point where Zimmermans only reasonable action was to use deadly force to save his own life? That sounds crazy.

 

We may not know everything there is about science and religion, but I can use common sense and pick a side. Same deal

 

 

actually I think that was a poor example cuz we might get side tracked

WE MIGHT?

WSS

[The Cysko Kid]

I hope that post made you feel good.

 

I'll ignore the poorly constructed, third grade level attempt at provocation. I'm guessing from your back-and-forth with Woody that you think it makes a really good point. I fail to see what it is.

 

To put it another way, everyone's heard the "if a white kid did this" construction before. It's not all that interesting. And if you do use it, at least find a situation where the attack is racially motivated in the reverse, and not attributed to a dispute over a wrestling match. At least then you'd have an analogy instead of what you have, which is ...whatever that was.

 

But to answer your question, yes, as a parent and as a human being, I love it when a kid stomps another kid, especially when he has epilepsy, and I'm always ready to defend it.

 

...Seriously?

 

My point is that you would defend it as not a hate crime, not defend his actions. You did just that. Good job. My ultimate point is that hate crimes are totally subjective and should not be considered when prosecuting cases. A crime is a crime. Please provide the transcript where zimmerman says 'fucking coons always get away' I heard it reported as 'fucking assholes always get away'

[MLD Woody]

interpretation

 

i hazza so much smoke blown up my azz that i can fly, izza smarta than you

 

 

Bunker you're a moron

[The Cysko Kid]

its a sad day when the president baits the masses with divide with his statements on Treyvon, he is as bad as the rest for exploiting the trajedy.

 

 

 

 

 

but what else can the loser do since his term in office is a complete failure? he has to piss everyone off and get em to start a racial divide.

 

 

i cant wait until november when the bum gets replaced.

 

If he does get replaced it Will be a hate crime

[heckofajobbrownie]

My point is that you would defend it as not a hate crime, not defend his actions. You did just that. Good job. My ultimate point is that hate crimes are totally subjective and should not be considered when prosecuting cases. A crime is a crime. Please provide the transcript where zimmerman says 'fucking coons always get away' I heard it reported as 'fucking assholes always get away'

 

It's all over the news. You haven't heard this? It's on his call to 911. There's some dispute about whether he's really saying "fucking coons", but it certainly seems like it. And the explanation from Zimmerman's camp - first that it was "punks", and then that it was "goons", and also that people say "coon-ass" all the time in that area, which is true, and also irrelevant - is sort of laughable. So I think it's fairly safe to say he called the kid a fucking coon. And that's probably part of what the DOJ is investigating. And it's certainly part of why this case has gotten so much attention. There are undeniable racial angles here.

 

And yes, I understand your point about hate crimes. I even agree with it in some respects. I'm not all that comfortable with hate crimes law. But I just think your arguments against it are off. Plus, the idea that it's "subjective" doesn't mean anything. It's subject to the burden of proof, just like any other claim in a court case. If you want to prove murder one, you have to prove intent and premeditation, or whatever. If you want to prove negligence in a tort case, same thing. If you want to prove that a defendant acted out of racial animus, you have to do that as well. And in hate crimes cases that bar is pretty high, which is probably why it won't apply here - because they don't think they can prove it.