The Cysko Kid Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 How many guys in here have kids? And how many don't? I have one. Anyone else? I have two right now. Both young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 No, I'm not. The current medical definition of death also includes cessation of cerebral function. Also, silly as it may be, it's a fact that the fetus gets blasted with semen every time a pregnant woman has sex. If you do that to a non-consenting person, then you're going to jail for a long time. I want to know why you think this is a bad proposal. If it is as silly as you are saying it is, then you should have no problem shooting it down. The fetus doesn't get "blasted with semen" Jesus Christ, man. If nothing else it's in it's little embryonic sac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 I suppose it gets difficult to reconcile being creeped out by abortion in the ninth month and one's loyalty to the Democratic party platform. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 Still no takers? I'm fully aware how out there my suggestion is, but again, if it's that ridiculous, please explain to me why it's okay to have unprotected sex with a pregnant woman if there is a person inside the womb. That person is going to be in contact with the male's sperm. You can laugh at that as much as you like, but I haven't heard a real argument against it except for Cysko's, which isn't a good one, you can't spray your sperm on someone just because they're wearing a raincoat, pretty sure you're still going to jail. If you want to treat the fetus as a fully human person, then please, please, please explain to me why it deserves some rights of humans but not others. You all seem to think that what I'm asking is very simple-minded. Again, if that's the case, I'd like to hear your logic as to why it doesn't matter if an embryo comes into contact with sperm. I just want this in a quote bed somewhere: "...it's a fact that the fetus gets blasted with semen every time a pregnant woman has sex." Heck, here's a picture of the female anatomy Please point out where the egg is fertilized and then where the embryo is implanted; take note of the path that the sperm travels. Once you do that, then explain to me how a developing fetus doesn't come into contact with sperm. So, given this information, I want to know why you think it is acceptable to have unprotected sex with a pregnant woman if that growing fetus is a living person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckofajobbrownie Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 I'm not contending that it's a person with full human rights. I'm saying that your analogy, while interesting and kind of funny - and certainly original - doesn't address the concerns of the debate. If your opinion is that a fertilized egg is life and terminating it is a form of murder (not my opinion, but go with me here) then it doesn't follow that you believe that it needs protection from all crimes humans can commit. You'd be making a case that, as life, or potential life, it has the right to develop into a human being and be born. It's not going to need protections from libel, or tax fraud, or sexual assault via spraying it with jizz. I know that's not the debate you guys are having, and that it involves heartbeat and the like, but I'm not really commenting on that. I'm saying the claim that a fetus has human qualities and potential human qualities and that it deserves protection from abortion so that it may develop those qualities does not also make the claim that it has all human qualities, like the ability to be sexually assaulted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 No more insane than saying that because it has a beating heart it's a human life! If it's a human life, then why does it deserve the right to exist, but not the right to be sexually assaulted. Seriously, I want a real counter argument, and if you can't propose one, then please explain why my suggestion is silly. If they found a tiny organism on mars, beating heart or not, would they call it life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 How many guys in here have kids? And how many don't? I have one. Anyone else? 2 both liberals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 No, I'm not. The current medical definition of death also includes cessation of cerebral function. Also, silly as it may be, it's a fact that the fetus gets blasted with semen every time a pregnant woman has sex. If you do that to a non-consenting person, then you're going to jail for a long time. I want to know why you think this is a bad proposal. If it is as silly as you are saying it is, then you should have no problem shooting it down. Maybe the male fetus who enjoy getting blasted by semen turn out to be gay? And the female fetus who hate it turn into lesbians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 I'm not contending that it's a person with full human rights. I'm saying that your analogy, while interesting and kind of funny - and certainly original - doesn't address the concerns of the debate. If your opinion is that a fertilized egg is life and terminating it is a form of murder (not my opinion, but go with me here) then it doesn't follow that you believe that it needs protection from all crimes humans can commit. You'd be making a case that, as life, or potential life, it has the right to develop into a human being and be born. It's not going to need protections from libel, or tax fraud, or sexual assault via spraying it with jizz. I know that's not the debate you guys are having, and that it involves heartbeat and the like, but I'm not really commenting on that. I'm saying the claim that a fetus has human qualities and potential human qualities and that it deserves protection from abortion so that it may develop those qualities does not also make the claim that it has all human qualities, like the ability to be sexually assaulted. I'm just trying to understand the logic of a pro-lifer, and my issue is that they see the fetus as a fully human, living being. If it doesn't get the same protections as a fully-grown human being, then they're actually defining it as something less than human, which I don't think anyone who's pro life would want to admit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 If they found a tiny organism on mars, beating heart or not, would they call it life? Yes, and they would do all sorts of experiments on it. Many of which would kill the organism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 2 both liberals. Well according to Vapor it's not too late to abort... WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunboy Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 I'm just trying to understand the logic of a pro-lifer, and my issue is that they see the fetus as a fully human, living being. If it doesn't get the same protections as a fully-grown human being, then they're actually defining it as something less than human, which I don't think anyone who's pro life would want to admit. I just don't see how someone can claim a fetus is anything less than human its not like they turn into something else. Trying to state that a fetus is anything other than a human life is just trying to justify abortion through mental gymnastics. In our country minors do not have full rights and protections either but that does not make them less than human by any stretch of the imagination. With that said I am pro choice. Just like my position on firearms I am pro choice and will not force an opinion down your throat. I dislike when anti gun people try to take away my choice because of their beliefs. Same goes for abortion in my point of view. However I have a son and I would never opt for abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 I just don't see how someone can claim a fetus is anything less than human its not like they turn into something else. Trying to state that a fetus is anything other than a human life is just trying to justify abortion through mental gymnastics. In our country minors do not have full rights and protections either but that does not make them less than human by any stretch of the imagination. With that said I am pro choice. Just like my position on firearms I am pro choice and will not force an opinion down your throat. I dislike when anti gun people try to take away my choice because of their beliefs. Same goes for abortion in my point of view. However I have a son and I would never opt for abortion. A fetus has less brain function than an ant, yet you kill ants all the time. Same goes for chickens, cows, pigs, etc. As a species, we extinguish all sorts of life that is more sentient than a fetus without batting an eye. Brain function is the most essential element of what makes us human. Until you have more brain function than a chicken, how can you be valued as a human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 Maybe the male fetus who enjoy getting blasted by semen turn out to be gay? And the female fetus who hate it turn into lesbians? I think I've just discovered what I'd like to study for a doctoral dissertation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 A fetus has less brain function than an ant, yet you kill ants all the time. Same goes for chickens, cows, pigs, etc. As a species, we extinguish all sorts of life that is more sentient than a fetus without batting an eye. Brain function is the most essential element of what makes us human. Until you have more brain function than a chicken, how can you be valued as a human? Brain function means squat. Was terri schaivo not human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunboy Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 A fetus has less brain function than an ant, yet you kill ants all the time. Same goes for chickens, cows, pigs, etc. As a species, we extinguish all sorts of life that is more sentient than a fetus without batting an eye. Brain function is the most essential element of what makes us human. Until you have more brain function than a chicken, how can you be valued as a human? Like I said I support the right to choose. But I will point out that you are engaging in mental gymnastics trying to define a fetus as anything less than a human life, it is most certainly not going to become an ant or a chicken. Call it what it is and do as you wish. Hell I will even argue that Abortion is a positive in our society, I would rather an abortion than a lifetime of abuse and neglect. Possibly creating the next sociopath that eats people or whatever because his mom was a terrible human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 How about a week old infant vs a grown pigs mental function? Sounds like veal to me! WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunboy Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 How about a week old infant vs a grown pigs mental function? Sounds like veal to me! WSS ooh how about since fetuses are not humans we start battering them up and deep frying them. Maybe with a side of mash and white gravy. They have less brain function than a cow after all. mmm delicious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 Brain function means squat. Was terri schaivo not human? Not one worth protecting. She was definitely a Homo sapiens, but I wouldn't call her human after that accident. I don't think that a vegetable was worth protecting, and she definitely wasn't worth the millions of dollars of legal and medical fees that went into that case. If you're a vegetable, your body may as well be donated to science as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 How about a week old infant vs a grown pigs mental function? Sounds like veal to me! WSS Pigs are among the most intelligent animals in existence. As such, I'm on the fence as to whether or not we should be slaughtering them to eat. I feel the same about most mammals used for food, especially dolphins. That being said, I can understand the justification for eating those things because our society grows at their expense, but I definitely feel that brain function is going to be a major factor in what society deems we can and cannot eat in the future. If you don't believe me, then check out the response to the Japanese hunting whales and dolphins. It's my opinion that sentience is the best measure for determining whether or not something's life is inherently valuable to that being. Sentience is not something that braindead people and fetuses possess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 Not one worth protecting. She was definitely a Homo sapiens, but I wouldn't call her human after that accident. I don't think that a vegetable was worth protecting, and she definitely wasn't worth the millions of dollars of legal and medical fees that went into that case. If you're a vegetable, your body may as well be donated to science as far as I'm concerned. I wonder what the dean of the science department would make of that. Maybe it is best you keep anonymous. You sound like youd fit right in with unit 731 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckofajobbrownie Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 But that's not true. Fetuses in the later stages of development are sentient. They can perform all of the functions of a newborn. Those functions don't all start once the baby passes through the birth canal. A fetus a week from its due date is not substantially from the baby that's eventually born in any way. That's why they can come one, two, three weeks early and there's no issue. The brain, the heart, all of the other major organs have all developed enough to permit it to live outside the womb. In my mind, there comes a point in fetal development when abortions should be restricted, with health exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 But that's not true. Fetuses in the later stages of development are sentient. They can perform all of the functions of a newborn. Those functions don't all start once the baby passes through the birth canal. A fetus a week from its due date is not substantially from the baby that's eventually born in any way. That's why they can come one, two, three weeks early and there's no issue. The brain, the heart, all of the other major organs have all developed enough to permit it to live outside the womb. In my mind, there comes a point in fetal development when abortions should be restricted, with health exceptions. Ah sorry, I have not been clarifying because I've been arguing against the claim that human life begins when the heartbeat does. Yes, I do have issues with 3rd trimester abortions. I think that brain development is too far along to have an abortion then, plus there is greater risk of complications to the mother. I think that abortions performed this late in the cycle should be off limits unless carrying the baby to term is a direct threat to the mother's life. The gray area, in my opinion, is the last few weeks of the second trimester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 I wonder what the dean of the science department would make of that. Maybe it is best you keep anonymous. You sound like youd fit right in with unit 731 You have no grasp of history if you think donating your body to science is comparable to what 731 did. And for what it's worth, I'd prefer that everyone should want to donate their body to science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 You have no grasp of history if you think donating your body to science is comparable to what 731 did. And for what it's worth, I'd prefer that everyone should want to donate their body to science. Yeah bro but whether you like it or not that 'vegetable' terri schaivo was still alive. Don't trip over your own feet. You said they should have donated her to science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 Yeah bro but whether you like it or not that 'vegetable' terri schaivo was still alive. Don't trip over your own feet. You said they should have donated her to science. After they pulled the plug and she expired, obviously. I'm in no way advocating the disrespect of any human remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckofajobbrownie Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 Ah sorry, I have not been clarifying because I've been arguing against the claim that human life begins when the heartbeat does. Yes, I do have issues with 3rd trimester abortions. I think that brain development is too far along to have an abortion then, plus there is greater risk of complications to the mother. I think that abortions performed this late in the cycle should be off limits unless carrying the baby to term is a direct threat to the mother's life. The gray area, in my opinion, is the last few weeks of the second trimester. I'd grant more exceptions than that. There are also horrible things that go wrong, that are discovered in the later stages of pregnancy, that should be left to the family and the doctor. I'm not for making a couple birth a deformed fetus that will only live for a an hour or two and make them watch it suffer and die, for instance. Those things happen. If that's what they want to do, and some parents will do that, that's their choice. If they think it's senseless and cruel to prolong suffering, that should be up to them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 After they pulled the plug and she expired, obviously. I'm in no way advocating the disrespect of any human remains. Why would you care? You don't have any respect for a human who's life has technically not quite started independently. Why the fuck would you care what happens to the remains? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckofajobbrownie Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 Andrew Sullivan's site ran a whole bunch of these stories on both sides of this issue a few years ago. It's worth reading because it's where political bullshit meets reality. He got a ton of responses. Here's one: It’s So Personal: Holoprosencephaly A reader writes: While I’ve always considered myself a pro-life conservative, I do admit to having mixed feelings about abortion. I’ve been following your series on late-term abortion for the past several days, and I thought I’d pass on our story. About 5 years ago, after a lot of effort, my wife got pregnant with our second child. We did the regular genetic screening (I can’t recall the name of the test, but it was just a simple blood test). It came back positive for Down’s Syndrome, but only at a slightly higher risk. Our OB/Gyn said the odds for someone my wife’s age (27) to have a Down’s baby were about 1 in 10,000. The positive test result put the odds closer to 1 in 150. He recommended we go to a doctor who specialized in high-risk pregnancies to confirm there was no problem. She was 5 months along at the time. During the additional testing, we had an ultrasound done with an amazingly high-tech machine. During the scan we kept asking the tech if she saw anything, but she kept telling us she wasn’t legally allowed to say one way or the other. We sat quietly until the end of the test, at which point the tech turned to us and said, “Well, I’m going to be honest with you, because it’s the only way I know how to be. I see some problems with the head.” I could hear my wife’s breathing quicken, and my hands started to shake uncontrollably. The doctor came in and said he saw holoprosencephaly, which, as we learned, essentially means that the brain did not divide into two hemispheres. In fact, although we were 19 weeks along, the brain had stopped developing at 11 weeks. He recommended a second scan with a different doctor. That doctor verified what the first doctor said, but his diagnosis was even worse. Not only had the brain stopped developing, but our daughter had a malformed heart, her bones were horribly misshapen, and her face consisted of just a hole where her nose should be. (He showed us a picture of her hand; around the middle of the fingers, the bones turned to the side at almost a 90 degree angle.) The doctor maintained that even if she were born alive, she would immediately die because she wouldn’t have the brain function to work her lungs. “Birth defects don’t get any more serious than this,” he said. All three doctors involved recommended abortion. It didn’t take us long to agree. All I could think about was trying to tell my wife, “You need to carry this baby another 3 months, and, assuming she doesn’t die in the womb and put your life in danger, you can deliver a horribly deformed child that will die immediately.” Even though my wife’s health was not in immediate danger, the psychological damage of this (for both of us) would have been devastating. We went ahead with the abortion. It was a two day procedure, and truly the most horrible days of our lives. I have no delusions about what we did, and to this day I’m aware that we chose to abort a baby we tried so hard to have. At the same time, I thank God every day that we live in a country where we could do it. Anyway, thanks for letting me get this off my chest. It’s something I long to talk about, but it doesn’t exactly come up in regular social circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckofajobbrownie Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 Anyone want to tell that family what they should do in that situation, and then mandate it by law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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