Official Browns QB Prospect Discussion!

[Tour2ma]

Here's a quick list of first round QB's that have played/started this season, complete with when they were drafted and a very short synopsis of their careers. Players underlined are part of a draft day trade. Players italicized are no longer on teams that drafted them.

 

What's interesting to me is that, of the trade ups involving top 10 picks, two of the three listed don't even start anymore. Furthermore, of the first overall picks to start this NFL season, none of them were involved in trades. They were all taken by teams with their regular picks. Of the seven trades listed, two aren't starting, two are injured, one is having a bad year and one was a backup to start this season. Flacco is the only one who has been a consistent starter for his entire career, and even he has been accused of being a bottom tier "elite" QB.

 

What this shows me is that there's no right way to get a QB...but there are plenty of wrong ways. Drafting QB's is a crapshoot. You can trade up and take one in the top 10 and get RG3, Gabbert or Sanchez. You can trade up and get one in the middle to late first round and get Flacco or Campbell. You can let one fall to you and get a Rodgers or a Quinn. You can take one first overall and get a Manning or a Bradford. You can take a raw prospect and get a Tannehill or a Freeman. You can take a small school guy with great numbers and get a Locker or a Roethlisberger.

 

 

I see us either taking a Hundley or a Mettenberger with our first overall pick, Carr with our second first rounder, or a player like Blake Bortles or Logan Thomas in the middle rounds. All of those QB's share similar attributes: they are large bodied, mobile, with strong arms and good intangibles. They are lacking in footwork and mechanics- things Norv Turner can teach in his sleep.

 

Really interesting exercise with fascinating result... made even more so by the apparent surprise it registered with you... well done.

 

It would seem that the old adage about the perils of drafting for need are in full display in your exercise. And it stands to reason that the peril is even greater around the most coveted QB position creating a panic factor, which we succumbed to twice in Messrs Weeden and Quinn. (And Quinn did not fall to us, we traded back up into the 1st to grab him.)

 

Going to take issue with your last point though. I think it is very hard to teach proper mechanics to a QB who has been doing it "his way" for 7 or 8 years at the HS and College level. Things get ingrained and even if the player manages to correct them in practice, they tend to come out under game pressure.

 

I rarely slice on the driving range any more, but every once in a while in a round that one-time constant companion drops in to say hello.

[Tour2ma]

Of course there are misses. The one certain thing is that you have to try. You have to take the bat off your shoulder. You absolutely can't hit a home run without swinging. As far as getting you Guy at QB, you just have to swing again. And again. Because without one, you don't matter. At all.

 

The issue is not continuing to swing; it's the cumulative cost of each swing. If by the time you get your guy the rest of your team is in shambles, then you are no better off.

 

You simply cannot afford to swing and miss in the 1st round repeatedly.

[hoorta]

 

It would seem that the old adage about the perils of drafting for need are in full display in your exercise. And it stands to reason that the peril is even greater around the most coveted QB position creating a panic factor, which we succumbed to twice in Messrs Weeden and Quinn. (And Quinn did not fall to us, we traded back up into the 1st to grab him.)

 

Going to take issue with your last point though. I think it is very hard to teach proper mechanics to a QB who has been doing it "his way" for 7 or 8 years at the HS and College level. Things get ingrained and even if the player manages to correct them in practice, they tend to come out under game pressure.

 

 

 

Yup, the poster boy for that would be Tim Tebow- even after a couple years of pro tutelage, his mechanics are still a mess. Regarding Weeden and T-Rich, it's plain as mud now those were pure panic picks by H&H. And as I like to point out that pick we gave the Cowboys to get Quinn could have been Rashard Mendenhall or Chris Johnson.

 

 

 

The issue is not continuing to swing; it's the cumulative cost of each swing. If by the time you get your guy the rest of your team is in shambles, then you are no better off.

 

You simply cannot afford to swing and miss in the 1st round repeatedly.

 

Amen Brother Tour. If Griffin doesn't pan out for Washington, they're set back at least another three years, swinging for the fences. Cumulative Browns whiffs on Couch (never lived up to #1 overall status), Frye, Quinn, McCoy, & Weedster are the primary reason we've been bottom feeders for over a decade. MHO- we've struck out enough times- let's hit it out of the park for a change. I'm firmly with TCPO on the quarterback issue- ignore the hype, wait until the Combine, Pro Days, and private workouts before you decide someone is "good" enough to risk the pick(s) - and it is a risk- to be the future qb of the Browns. I still think come OTAs Hoyer will be given every chance to win the starting job next year.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Really interesting exercise with fascinating result... made even more so by the apparent surprise it registered with you... well done.

 

It would seem that the old adage about the perils of drafting for need are in full display in your exercise. And it stands to reason that the peril is even greater around the most coveted QB position creating a panic factor, which we succumbed to twice in Messrs Weeden and Quinn. (And Quinn did not fall to us, we traded back up into the 1st to grab him.)

 

Going to take issue with your last point though. I think it is very hard to teach proper mechanics to a QB who has been doing it "his way" for 7 or 8 years at the HS and College level. Things get ingrained and even if the player manages to correct them in practice, they tend to come out under game pressure.

 

I rarely slice on the driving range any more, but every once in a while in a round that one-time constant companion drops in to say hello.

I was more referring to the fact that Brady took a free fall from being a sure fire top 5 pick to the late first, akin to Rodgers. We did screw the pooch moving up to take him, but I will admit I was enamored with him, just as others are with Hoyer. Something about being a "hometown"(ish) guy...

 

I think what makes a good NFL coach is the realization that players do have their own ways of doing things and adapting to that. There is no absolute perfect way to throw a football, every person does it slightly differently in varying situations and will have different hitches in their footwork and motion.

 

At the NFL level, I think it's more about minimizing the hitches that you can (patting the ball, dropping your shoulder, extended delivery, etc.) and utilizing the others (lower release point, misguided feet, etc.).

 

Matthew Stafford was highly touted as a prospect that oozed talent, but a big knock on him was that he tended to sidearm the ball a few times per game, especially when fatigued. Stafford has since utilized that sidearm throw when pressed and has made some absolutely incredible throws under duress in the NFL. Again, it's not preferable, but it can be a weapon if harnessed.

 

Fundamentally speaking, Hundley has a problem with his footwork and winds up on longer throws. His footwork isn't bad per se, he just takes a number of useless steps and sometimes doesn't set correctly. These are things that can be fixed, as they aren't motions that he constantly does not are they unique to his throwing style.

 

If he had a long delivery, a pitchers wind up (cough, cough) or a wandering elbow, that would be a little different. Those are fatal flaws that are very hard to overcome for a QB.

 

All in all, I think the best way to take a QB is to find a guy who fits your mold and has the least amount of "unfixables". He may not always be a first rounder. If you like a guy in the mid to late rounds, taking him and learning him up is never a bad move.

 

I'm actually becoming more and more impressed with Hundley's athleticism and attitude the more I research him. He reminds me of Manuel, a leader with a great personality and endless athletic talent.

[Shep]

It'll still cost a GM his job (and probably a coach), but the rookie cap helps by 10s of millions. Literally. Sam Bradford snuck in just under the wire.

 

I guess we'll agree, you MUST stop whiffing but you can't stop swinging because you got dispirited with previous regimes' efforts. You can either have The Guy or be looking like mad for The Guy. There is no "C."

 

That's what this brass told me. I kid.

 

 

The issue is not continuing to swing; it's the cumulative cost of each swing. If by the time you get your guy the rest of your team is in shambles, then you are no better off.

 

You simply cannot afford to swing and miss in the 1st round repeatedly.

[Shep]

Great post, Couch. Actually... a ton of great posts in here, even if they aren't in total harmony. Kudos.

 

Tour, I actually do agree with you: Knowing that you aren't even on the track until you find your QB makes people see things that aren't there sometimes. Like me and Quinn.

[miktoxic]

i guarantee four months from now half these posts you call great and half the QBs you've touted will be gone like a fart in the wind.

 

upside down and twisted.

 

that's why these threads suck dick.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Yup, the poster boy for that would be Tim Tebow- even after a couple years of pro tutelage, his mechanics are still a mess. Regarding Weeden and T-Rich, it's plain as mud now those were pure panic picks by H&H. And as I like to point out that pick we gave the Cowboys to get Quinn could have been Rashard Mendenhall or Chris Johnson.

 

 

 

Amen Brother Tour. If Griffin doesn't pan out for Washington, they're set back at least another three years, swinging for the fences. Cumulative Browns whiffs on Couch (never lived up to #1 overall status), Frye, Quinn, McCoy, & Weedster are the primary reason we've been bottom feeders for over a decade. MHO- we've struck out enough times- let's hit it out of the park for a change. I'm firmly with TCPO on the quarterback issue- ignore the hype, wait until the Combine, Pro Days, and private workouts before you decide someone is "good" enough to risk the pick(s) - and it is a risk- to be the future qb of the Browns. I still think come OTAs Hoyer will be given every chance to win the starting job next year.

When it comes to crappy mechanics, Tebow's delivery is the diarrhea- messy, disgusting and embarrassing.

 

I love Tebow but he is filled with unfixables. I still think he can win, however. John Fox at least proved that it is possible to win, albeit untraditionally.

[Tour2ma]

Tebow is a great example, but we even tried to tweak Bernie's delivery once upon a time.

 

A great head can go a long way toward compensating for physical flaws, but the opposite is simply not true at the NFL level.

 

Add me to the list of Quinn backers as well... despite the fact that I loathe ND. Although I was not a fan of the trade up for him.

 

 

Boys... I think we are all close to a kumbaya moment...

 

Let's cement it by kicking the shit out of mik for a while now...

 

i guarantee four months from now half these posts you call great and half the QBs you've touted will be gone like a fart in the wind.

 

upside down and twisted.

 

that's why these threads suck dick.

 

The QBs may go, but the posts are forever...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Tebow is a great example, but we even tried to tweak Bernie's delivery once upon a time.

 

A great head can go a long way toward compensating for physical flaws, but the opposite is simply not true at the NFL level.

 

Add me to the list of Quinn backers as well... despite the fact that I loathe ND. Although I was not a fan of the trade up for him.

 

 

Boys... I think we are all close to a kumbaya moment...

 

Let's cement it by kicking the shit out of mik for a while now...

 

 

The QBs may go, but the posts are forever...

What are your thoughts on either Hundley with our first pick or Bortles in the second (assuming he declares)?

[calfoxwc]

After watching Bortles the last game... I would go with him

before Mettenberger whatever his name is.

 

I was impressed.

 

Not Petty impressed, but moreso than Mettenberger.

[Shep]

I sent this to Li'l Wayne. He says it's the start of a hit.

 

i guarantee four months from now half these posts you call great and half the QBs you've touted will be gone like a fart in the wind.

 

upside down and twisted.

 

that's why these threads suck dick.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

 

2014 Cleveland Browns NFL Mock Drafts (November 22 Edition)

By Zac Wassink21 hours ago

 

 

COMMENTARY | It's somewhat depressing thinking about the 2014 NFL Draft today. After all, the Cleveland Browns are very much so in the playoff hunt as they prepare to face off with the Pittsburgh Steelers on November 24. It is, nevertheless, that time of year when draft experts peek inside their crystal balls. Here are some early ideas of what the Browns might be thinking for next spring.

 

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Note: The Browns have two first round picks; their own, and the one they picked up by trading running back Trent Richardson to the Indianapolis Colts.

2014 Cleveland Browns NFL Mock Drafts (November 22 edition): Shutdown Corner

What immediately jumped out regarding the latest mock draft put out by Eric Edholm was where he has the Browns picking. He sees Cleveland finishing 2013 with such a record that would have them select at 14, lower than anybody else mentioned in this piece placed the team. Edholm put the Baltimore Ravens at 11 and the Pittsburgh Steelers at 13.

First pick: WR Marqise Lee, USC: Lee, after 11 games in 2013, has reeled in 44 passes for 604 yards and two touchdowns. He is listed at 6-0 and 195 pounds. The reasoning behind this selection? From Edholm: "The Browns would love to find their future quarterback here, but with no clear-cut option after the top guys have gone, they can afford to wait until their second first-round pick to consider that player."

Second pick, 26 overall: QB Zach Mettenberger, LSU: The 6-5 and 230-pound senior is a big thrower ideal for an offense run by Rob Chudzinski and Norv Turner. Odds are that he will be the best available quarterback if the Browns are forced to wait this long to use that Indianapolis pick. With that said, I cannot envision a scenario in which Cleveland doesn't pick up a QB in the first round.

2014 Cleveland Browns NFL Mock Drafts (November 22 edition): Walter Football

First pick: QB Derek Carr, Fresno State: No messing around here, as this mock draft has the Browns going for a QB right away. Carr's stock seems to rise with every weekend. The 6-3 and 218-pound senior has thus far completed 69.5 percent of his pass attempts. He has 32 touchdown passes and only four interceptions. Carr has also only taken eight sacks.

Interesting note: According to this mock draft, Johnny Manziel of Texas A&M won't be taken until 11, so he would, in this hypothetical world, be there for Cleveland. Hmm.

Second pick: ILB A.J. Johnson, Tennessee: The Browns could certainly use the help in the middle of the field. This draft is also assuming that Cleveland will utilize the second first-rounder a la the New York Giants and merely go with the best available player.

2014 Cleveland Browns NFL Mock Drafts (November 22 edition): Bleacher Report

First pick: Carr: NFL Draft guru Matt Miller also sees the Browns taking the quarterback out of Fresno State, this time with the ninth overall pick. Carr is advertised to have a strong arm similar to that of Brandon Weeden, but with far more accuracy and more composure. Sign me up.

For what it's worth, Miller sees Johnny Football going off of the board at 12, and he has Marqise Lee falling all the day down to 17.

Second pick: WR Odell Beckham Jr., LSU: Miller envisions the Browns having to wait around until 27 to use the pick that the team acquired from the Colts. Beckham is a finalist for the Paul Hornung Award (most versatile player) and a semifinalist for the Biletnikoff Award (best receiver). He has 51 catches and eight touchdowns heading into November 23.

2014 Cleveland Browns NFL Mock Drafts (November 22 edition): Rob Rang

First pick: WR Sammy Watkins, Clemson: I somewhat find this hard to accept, as Rang only has two quarterbacks, Teddy Twatwater and Marcus Mariota, being off the board when Cleveland drafts. Watkins, who currently has 71 receptions for 1,086 yards and nine touchdowns, is undeniably a talent. It appears Rang simply isn't sold on the top-rated QBs. That leads me to...

Second pick: Mettenberger: There it is. Mettenberger could be a steal at 27. He could also prove to be Weeden 2.0.

2014 Cleveland Browns NFL Mock Drafts (November 22 edition): Dane Brugler

First pick: Carr: Carr will be the future quarterback of the Browns if these mock drafts have anything to say about it. Only three of five people see Cleveland selecting a quarterback with the team's first overall pick. Every one of them is a fan of the Fresno State QB.

Second pick: WR Allen Robinson, Penn State: Talk about a rising stock. Robinson entered 2013 as a WR who could go on Sundays. Now, some are suggesting that he could be the greatest WR in PSU history. Robinson falling all the way down to 27 would be a blessing for the Browns.

A duo of Carr and Robinson wearing Brown and Orange for a decade at least? I'm sure Cleveland fans would take that.

For more: No HOF for Modell, Villains of the Browns, Haden a star

Zac has been following Cleveland sports since a little before his birth, and thus his heart breaks a little more with every year. He has been covering the Cleveland Browns, New York Giants and the NFL for Yahoo Sports since 2010.

[Flyin J]

http://sprtshumor.lockerdome.com/media/110546017

As long as its not this guy....

[Shep]

Good stuff. I kinda-sorta think dring Zack "Weeds" Mettenberger in a similar draft slot is just too crazy to happen. He's about as mobile and kind of reminds me of a slightly more accurate Derek Anderson. We'll see today against Manziel. It's a huge day for both guys, really.

 

I like the mobility of Carr, Manziel, and Hundley... and I think Chud does, too. He'd love to toss in some designed QB sweeps like SF and some RO like he ran with Newton.

[Tour2ma]

As much as I do not like Mettenberg, the mock that has him on the back-end of a Watkins/ Mettenberg first round might be tolerable. But a Watkins/ Zack Martin 1st with a QB in round 2 or 3 would definitely float my boat.

 

DraftScout.com has Mettenberg sliding to the late 1st/ early 2nd now... and lookie lookie they have my boy on the rise into the late 2nd!

 

At the NFL level, I think it's more about minimizing the hitches that you can (patting the ball, dropping your shoulder, extended delivery, etc.) and utilizing the others (lower release point, misguided feet, etc.).

Agree

Fundamentally speaking, Hundley has a problem with his footwork and winds up on longer throws. His footwork isn't bad per se, he just takes a number of useless steps and sometimes doesn't set correctly. These are things that can be fixed, as they aren't motions that he constantly does not are they unique to his throwing style.

His wind up bugs me. A QB that for no apparent reason is inconsistant in his mechanics actually bothers me more than one who is consistantly off.

If he had a long delivery, a pitchers wind up (cough, cough) or a wandering elbow, that would be a little different. Those are fatal flaws that are very hard to overcome for a QB.

LOL... I think you meant to say (wheeze, wheeze). Wheezy is one of the worst I've seen...

All in all, I think the best way to take a QB is to find a guy who fits your mold and has the least amount of "unfixables". He may not always be a first rounder. If you like a guy in the mid to late rounds, taking him and learning him up is never a bad move.

Agree... QBs with perfect mechanics are just rare. The closest to perfection seem to either have a coach (Elway) or QB (Mannings, Luck) for a father. But if the head is good, it can go a long way toward overcoming non-fatal flaws.

 

I'm actually becoming more and more impressed with Hundley's athleticism and attitude the more I research him. He reminds me of Manuel, a leader with a great personality and endless athletic talent.

 

 

What are your thoughts on either Hundley with our first pick or Bortles in the second (assuming he declares)?

 

I've seen Hundley twice and have not yet been impressed. Certainly do not see him as "early/ mid 1st round worthy" at this point... but still watching.

 

I have seen a couple UCF games, but never focused on Bortles passing. Was put off by his running as I am with all running QBs. I'll make myself watch him more closely next time.

 

Caught a good bit of Fales vs Navy last night (42/56 440 yards 5 TD 1 INT). As Shep pointed out a while back, his arm strength is a question. Too bad because despite the INT in 3rd OT there was a lot to like. He has a quick release, very nice pocket awareness and made a few really pretty passes on the move. He's projected to be a 4-5th rounder by DraftScout.com and looks plenty worthy of that pick.

[Tour2ma]

We'll see today against Manziel. It's a huge day for both guys, really.

 

I like the mobility of Carr, Manziel, and Hundley... and I think Chud does, too. He'd love to toss in some designed QB sweeps like SF and some RO like he ran with Newton.

 

Really looking forward to the A&M/ LSU tilt today...

 

Not looking forward to any Browns' QB-sweeps... Can't you tell Chud to put that out of his mind?

[Browns149]

 

Really looking forward to the A&M/ LSU tilt today...

 

Not looking forward to any Browns' QB-sweeps... Can't you tell Chud to put that out of his mind?

I want to see that game also. I wonder if the Browns have any scouts there?

[Shep]

I think there are probably 42 Browns employees at that game (!).

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

As much as I do not like Mettenberg, the mock that has him on the back-end of a Watkins/ Mettenberg first round might be tolerable. But a Watkins/ Zack Martin 1st with a QB in round 2 or 3 would definitely float my boat.

 

DraftScout.com has Mettenberg sliding to the late 1st/ early 2nd now... and lookie lookie they have my boy on the rise into the late 2nd!

 

 

 

 

I've seen Hundley twice and have not yet been impressed. Certainly do not see him as "early/ mid 1st round worthy" at this point... but still watching.

 

I have seen a couple UCF games, but never focused on Bortles passing. Was put off by his running as I am with all running QBs. I'll make myself watch him more closely next time.

 

Caught a good bit of Fales vs Navy last night (42/56 440 yards 5 TD 1 INT). As Shep pointed out a while back, his arm strength is a question. Too bad because despite the INT in 3rd OT there was a lot to like. He has a quick release, very nice pocket awareness and made a few really pretty passes on the move. He's projected to be a 4-5th rounder by DraftScout.com and looks plenty worthy of that pick.

The thing I like most of Bortles is his general elusiveness. He's not the fastest or quickest by any means, but he is very good at maneuvering in and outside of the pocket.

 

He reminds me of Roethlisberger in college. He's a big guy at a mid-major school who has turned in great performances against ranked teams, and his play style is very much the same.

 

He can make all the throws. He's made them all season long. But his escapability and his ability to extend plays is what I really love.

[Browns149]

The thing I like most of Hundley is his general elusiveness. He's not the fastest or quickest by any means, but he is very good at maneuvering in and outside of the pocket.

 

He reminds me of Roethlisberger in college. He's a big guy at a mid-major school who has turned in great performances against ranked teams, and his play style is very much the same.

 

He can make all the throws. He's made them all season long. But his escapability and his ability to extend plays is what I really love.

When did UCLA become a mid-major?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

When did UCLA become a mid-major?

I meant Bortles, not Hundley. My mistake.

[thenew23]

Derek Carr - 527 yds & 7 TDs... in 3 quarters today...

 

Can't wait to see him in a BCS Bowl game (hopefully), and the Senior Bowl to see what he can do against better competition. He is my #1 QB right now... and yes, I mean above ALL the other QBs...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Derek Carr - 527 yds & 7 TDs... in 3 quarters today...

 

Can't wait to see him in a BCS Bowl game (hopefully), and the Senior Bowl to see what he can do against better competition. He is my #1 QB right now... and yes, I mean above ALL the other QBs...

Against a 3 win New Mexico team.

[Browns149]

all this means nothing. Great QB's are made in the NFL, with good coaching.. College means about squat. Look at Tom Brady, he was a 6th round afterthought. Then there was Tim Couch, and Ryan Leaf,. There is no for sure fire way to tell if a college QB will do well in the NFL.

 

Kurt Warner was bagging groceries, and Gino Torretta won the Heisman.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

all this means nothing. Great QB's are made in the NFL, with good coaching.. College means about squat. Look at Tom Brady, he was a 6th round afterthought. Then there was Tim Couch, and Ryan Leaf,. There is no for sure fire way to tell if a college QB will do well in the NFL.

 

Kurt Warner was bagging groceries, and Gino Torretta won the Heisman.

But on the flip side, there's players like Andrew Luck and Cam Newton who succeed at both levels.

 

You're absolutely correct. All it proves is that there's no one way to find a QB, but there's about a million ways to not find one.

 

All you can really do is look for the qualities you deem most important and find the guy who possesses the most of them.

 

After all, part of the success has to be attributed to the system. Tom Brady, Matt Ryan and Peyton Manning wouldn't be as successful in a system like San Fran's. Flacco wouldn't be as successful in Kansas City. Stafford wouldn't be as successful in Carolina.

 

 

There's about a 15 item checklist that I, personally, have...and I'm no scout. The items on that list are weighted and of this years crop, there's about three QB's I'd love to have. Not all of them are in the first round, either.

[Browns149]

so it comes down to the scout, who see's these attributes with his own eyes. They never get the credit though. I'm sure Bill Belicheck wasn't at meatchicken games, watching Tom Brady.

[koalabazooka]

Derek Carr - 527 yds & 7 TDs... in 3 quarters today...

 

Can't wait to see him in a BCS Bowl game (hopefully), and the Senior Bowl to see what he can do against better competition. He is my #1 QB right now... and yes, I mean above ALL the other QBs...

 

Unfortunately for CLE, this monster push from him means that he will be drafted before CLE's pick. But I've been on Carr's case for a long time. He's a phenomenal passer that elevates his otherwise pitiful team.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

so it comes down to the scout, who see's these attributes with his own eyes. They never get the credit though. I'm sure Bill Belicheck wasn't at meatchicken games, watching Tom Brady.

It doesn't come down to him, but he is involved. It's a thankless job.

[Sheepdog]

I just read that Aaron Murray tore his ACL. Somewhere else had him as a 3-5 round pick. I would be totally for drafting him in the 5th round, kind of do what Washington did last year with drafting two QBs.