Liberty Counsel and Judges fight perverted redefinition of real, natural Marriage

[calfoxwc]

10/10/2015

Mathew Staver, Founder and Chairman
Liberty Counsel

The fight for natural marriage in Alabama is one of our nation's most intense legal battlefronts. Legal events there could provide a template for other states to take action on behalf of natural marriage. Please see my important update below – Mat.

This week, Judge John Enslen became the second Alabama probate judge to ask the Alabama Supreme Court to take action to protect Alabama's embattled probate judges who oppose the issuance of same-sex "marriage" licenses.

Judge Enslen argued, "Despite the June 26, 2015, ruling by the Supreme Court of the United States in Obergefell v. Hodges, the issuance of same-sex marriage licenses in Alabama… remains illegal and unconstitutional in the State of Alabama. Born solely from a strained interpretation of the U.S. Constitution, the new same-sex marriage license is a child of the federal government, not the State of Alabama."

Last month, Judge Nick Williams filed a motion and memo with the Alabama Supreme Court, arguing "the Obergefell decision is wholly lacking in lawful Supreme Court authority," because "the United States Constitution defines the powers of the federal government, and gives no branch of the federal government power to redefine marriage."

Citing the example of Abraham Lincoln and the Wisconsin Supreme Court, both of which ignored the U.S. Supreme Court on the issue of slavery, Judge Williams called for the Alabama Supreme Court to "recognize the historic moment to return balance to our system of federalism and restrain lawlessness."

+ + We are actively engaged in the Alabama battle for natural marriage.

Liberty Counsel does not represent Judges Enslen or Williams, but does represent the Alabama Policy Institute, the Alabama Citizens Action Program, and their many Alabama members in related proceedings before the Alabama Supreme Court.

In July, in a brief to the Alabama Supreme Court, Liberty Counsel presented legal arguments following the release of the Court's ruling in the marriage case. The brief stated, in part...

"When considering the Supreme Court's Obergefell opinion, state Supreme Courts should contemplate the decision's substantial assault on the Rule of Law, Democracy, and Natural Law, and its necessary diminishment of the constitutional right to Free Exercise of Religion."

I am praying that efforts to marginalize Christians and attempts to make us "call good that which is evil" will backfire. This is a crucially important and winnable battle. Please join with Liberty Counsel in our ongoing stand for natural marriage, religious liberty, and right of conscience with a tax-deductible gift of any amount today.

+ + Liberty Counsel won't quit in this fight.

The Liberty Counsel legal team is very busy dealing with requests from magistrates, probate judges, clerks, and other civil servants who are being pressured to officiate or issue licenses for same-sex "marriages" - or face suspension, termination, fines, or prosecution. Many of our clients have been forced to choose between deprivation of their constitutional rights and continued employment.

These cases reveal the conflicts erupting across the United States as intolerant activists impose their will on the majority of Americans who refuse to participate in same-sex unions. The same-sex "marriage" agenda severely threatens religious liberty and freedom of conscience.

We are fighting a well-organized, well-funded, pro-homosexual offensive!

God bless you abundantly for standing on behalf of natural marriage,

Mat

P.S. Conscientious objection based on deeply held religious beliefs is an unalienable human right that must be protected.

Now, magistrates, pastors, bakers, photographers, business owners, event planners, and others are being forced against their will to celebrate and assist in events against their deeply held religious beliefs.

[LogicIsForSquares]

Liberty Counsel must be making a killing off of Kim Davis supporters. I really missed the boat on making that kind of loot.

[jbluhm86]

I think the contradictory line in the first sentence of the cited "article" shows just how dubious it actually is:

 

"The fight for natural marriage..."

 

The concept of marriage, in itself, is not a natural phenomenon; there are no examples in nature of institutionalized marriage anywhere in the animal kingdom. Marriage is a strictly man-made construct, and unique to humanity. Therefore, it is rather poor logic to attempt to legitimize heterosexual marriage over homosexual marriage in humans by using "natural laws".

 

But then again, when you have an agenda, you'll grab at any straw man in arms reach.

[calfoxwc]

but then again, you have no point, since you are misusing the term "natural law".

It's what liberals do.

**************************

Natural law

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For other uses, see Natural law (disambiguation).

Thomas Aquinas, the leading proponent of natural law.

Natural law is a philosophy that certain rights or values are inherent by virtue of human nature, and universally cognizable through human reason. Historically, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze both social and personal human nature to deduce binding rules of moral behavior. The law of nature, being determined by nature, is universal.^[1]

[calfoxwc]

so, it isn't "law of nature"....

 

it's "natural law".

 

Jblu translation;

 

[bbedward]

Who cares? Kim Davis was married like 50 times, and pretty much everybody else who gets married gets divorced too.

 

If you don't like it, don't let them get married in your church. Letting them get the license has no effect on anybody.

 

It's not like by giving them equal rights has any affect on your day to day life. You could make the argument for illegal immigrants or refugees getting handouts, but the only problem some people have with gays is "I don't like it my bible says no"

[calfoxwc]

baloney. There are a lot of reasons people abhor sick perverted garbage,

and what the Bible says is often not one of them.

 

Of course it has a lot of affect on a lot of people. Hundreds of millions of people believe

that marriage is between a MAN and a WOMAN.

 

It's science.

[jbluhm86]

baloney. There are a lot of reasons people abhor sick perverted garbage,

and what the Bible says is often not one of them.

 

Of course it has a lot of affect on a lot of people. Hundreds of millions of people believe

that marriage is between a MAN and a WOMAN.

 

It's science.

Really now? As a biologist, you have piqued my interest. This is the 2nd post of yours that i've noticed that you mentioned that homosexual marriage goes against science, so i'm assuming that is your hypothesis. Which discipline of science are you referring to? Please post your peer-reviewed research that supports your theory.

[bbedward]

[tiamat63]

baloney. There are a lot of reasons people abhor sick perverted garbage,

and what the Bible says is often not one of them.

 

Of course it has a lot of affect on a lot of people. Hundreds of millions of people believe

that marriage is between a MAN and a WOMAN.

 

It's science.

Im curious as to the other reasons ?

 

As I've never heard a single one that doesn't end up sounding like 'in the bible, it's a sin'.

 

There is no other logical reason to deny gays the right beyond that line.

 

As for 'it's science'. Ron Burgundy ??

[MLD Woody]

He has no argument. He's attempted this many times. No one that is against gay marriage has any real argument. He's just fighting for team Wrong Side of History.

 

 

and it appears my posts either got deleted or didn't show up from earlier, but I made a similar comment laughing at the term "natural marriage". Every time he uses it (or one of his chain emails does), I find it hilarious.

 

 

 

no, wait, i forgot.... Magnets. That's his science. Magnets.

[Legacy Fan]

Who cares? Kim Davis was married like 50 times, and pretty much everybody else who gets married gets divorced too.

 

If you don't like it, don't let them get married in your church. Letting them get the license has no effect on anybody.

 

It's not like by giving them equal rights has any affect on your day to day life. You could make the argument for illegal immigrants or refugees getting handouts, but the only problem some people have with gays is "I don't like it my bible says no"

This is the correct stance.

[StinkHole]

Really now? As a biologist, you have piqued my interest. This is the 2nd post of yours that i've noticed that you mentioned that homosexual marriage goes against science, so i'm assuming that is your hypothesis. Which discipline of science are you referring to? Please post your peer-reviewed research that supports your theory.

 

Stuart

 

 

I think he means that nature designed rod "A" to fit into slot "B" to produce an outcome "C"...and marriage is the "moral" way by which civilized people are supposed to procreate.

 

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=marry

 

 

I know, I know, morality is not absolute, its another can of worms.

I would love to see Alabama get its way however, but when it comes to it, representatives of the govt should comply. Give unto Caesar what is Caesars and give unto God what is Gods.

I'm sure God won't hold it against Kim Davis if she issues a marriage license to a couple of homos.

[tiamat63]

Stuart

 

 

I think he means that nature designed rod "A" to fit into slot "B" to produce an outcome "C"...and marriage is the "moral" way by which civilized people are supposed to procreate.

 

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=marry

 

 

I know, I know, morality is not absolute, its another can of worms.

I would love to see Alabama get its way however, but when it comes to it, representatives of the govt should comply. Give unto Caesar what is Caesars and give unto God what is Gods.

I'm sure God won't hold it against Kim Davis if she issues a marriage license to a couple of homos.

 

This, is the fucking point I've mentioned multiple times; Although with a bit more tact.

[Westside Steve]

I think the contradictory line in the first sentence of the cited "article" shows just how dubious it actually is:

 

"The fight for natural marriage..."

 

The concept of marriage, in itself, is not a natural phenomenon; there are no examples in nature of institutionalized marriage anywhere in the animal kingdom. Marriage is a strictly man-made construct, and unique to humanity. Therefore, it is rather poor logic to attempt to legitimize heterosexual marriage over homosexual marriage in humans by using "natural laws".

 

But then again, when you have an agenda, you'll grab at any straw man in arms reach.

Yes, marriage itself is directly against nature.

So is most of religion and civilization itself. Perfect allegory is in the old film Island of Dr Moreau, redone as island of lost souls. I believe it was from at HG Wells story where the mad scientist tries to turn animals into human beings yet they revert to their animal nature. Are we not men?

 

 

 

WSS

[Westside Steve]

Yet since marriage is a contract basically for procreation and family then there can be a distinct difference between natural and unnatural. That doesn't mean right or wrong. That means that a mock apple pie made with Ritz crackers is not the same as an apple pie made with Macintosh apples

 

WSS

[calfoxwc]

Really now? As a biologist, you have piqued my interest.​ Jblu

**************************************

Well, Emily jblu latella......

 

You see.... you take two magnets. Now, watch how, always, that N repels N, and S repels S when you try to put them together.

 

It's science. Now,try doing N-S, and S-N. See?

 

Sure, with biology, human beings' sexuality isn't as concretely true as that, but it's still unnatural, per natural law -

it's a grotesque anomaly. Like a two-headed snake. Not normal. Kinda makes most people puke kind of not normal.

 

So, there ya go. You can't argue with simple science, ya know. Perverted definition of REAL MARRIAGE supporters

just get hosed, because they are science deniers, and sciencephobes.

[MLD Woody]

He's 100% serious too. That's the funny thing.

[Clevfan4life]

baloney. There are a lot of reasons people abhor sick perverted garbage,

and what the Bible says is often not one of them.

 

Of course it has a lot of affect on a lot of people. Hundreds of millions of people believe

that marriage is between a MAN and a WOMAN.

 

It's science.

 

no it's always something from the bible. Let it go Cal. We've moved on.

[Clevfan4life]

It's the procreation thing that's getting Cal tripped up. He doesn't understand that most of us now consider marriage as the union between two people who love each other, procreation is secondary to that. Cal is still living 2000 years ago.

[Clevfan4life]

like I could personally give a shit that two guys or two girls can't technically procreate with each other. If they love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives with each other and create a stable union which imo is more important to society than simple procreation....than so be it. It's none of my business.

[Westside Steve]

Cal has been more honest than most around here. He and I don't particularly agree on this one area but I've never heard him say that he believes that homosexuality is a sin and is against the Bible and blah blah blah. He's been pretty straightforward about the fact that homosexuality creeps him out.

 

(No different than sadomasochism. It's kind of fucked up and not natural even though it exists. Personally if two people want to do it it's up to them but it is fucked up)

 

I think most people who want to prove him wrong feel the same way but are being a little hypocritical about it.

 

WSS

[MLD Woody]

Props to cal for being honest about his dumbass reasoning I guess...

[jbluhm86]

Really now? As a biologist, you have piqued my interest.​ Jblu

**************************************

Well, Emily jblu latella......

 

You see.... you take two magnets. Now, watch how, always, that N repels N, and S repels S when you try to put them together.

 

It's science. Now,try doing N-S, and S-N. See?

 

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what the polarity of magnets have to do with whether or not homosexual marriage should be legitimate. Electromagnetism is more in Physics' domain. Perhaps you're using it as an analogy? If so, I can do the same thing. Polar substances like water and non-polar substances like oils and fats are (literally) polar opposites of each other and yet they repel one another. In this case, trying to put opposites together ends up repelling both. So, using you're hare-brained logic, since polar molecules are attracted to polar molecules, and repel non-similar, non-polar molecules, homosexual marriage should be legalized. If that train of thought sounds foolish, that is because it is, and yet that is exactly the same logic you are using.

 

Sure, with biology, human beings' sexuality isn't as concretely true as that, but it's still unnatural, per natural law -

it's a grotesque anomaly. Like a two-headed snake. Not normal. Kinda makes most people puke kind of not normal.

 

You criticized me earlier for what you believe was my misinterpretation of "natural law" vs "law of nature", but I don't believe you seem to know the differences yourself. Natural laws are derived from logical and reasonable observations of nature and the universe itself. But even that is rather nebulous; you can observe the differing opinions of natural law philosophers such as Aristotle, Hobbes, Aquinas and Locke to confirm that. So its rather ambitious to claim that something "violates" a natural law when nobody seems to have a unified and concrete definition of what it is. And since you're magnet analogy is derived from nature, I guess that means appeal to nature is perfectly legit for your arguments, but not for anyone else...

 

So, there ya go. You can't argue with simple science, ya know. Perverted definition of REAL MARRIAGE supporters

just get hosed, because they are science deniers, and sciencephobes.

 

Ok, so let us use scientific reasoning for your argument. Shaving it down with Occam's potent Gillette, it boils down to something along the lines of:

 

A is Natural, therefore A is good.

B is Unnatural, therefore B is bad.

 

Sounds a tad "petitio principii" to me... you're defending institutionalized heterosexual marriage, which others on this board and I have repeatedly told you is not natural in itself, it is a solely human institution. But we can apply your logic many ways. In vitro fertilization for sterile couples would be bad, since the natural way to have children is by intercourse. Or how about life saving surgery? That would be unnatural to, since invasive surgery is not natural, so I guess thats bad too...and on and on we go.

 

Its like Steve said: just because something isn't "natural", doesn't mean that, by extension, it is perverse or wrong.

 

 

Yet since marriage is a contract basically for procreation and family then there can be a distinct difference between natural and unnatural. That doesn't mean right or wrong. That means that a mock apple pie made with Ritz crackers is not the same as an apple pie made with Macintosh apples

 

WSS

 

 

like I could personally give a shit that two guys or two girls can't technically procreate with each other. If they love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives with each other and create a stable union which imo is more important to society than simple procreation....than so be it. It's none of my business.

Exactly.

 

[calfoxwc]

if it's none of our business, why are our businesses being sued

to be forced to accept perversion?

 

Leave America's businesses and churches out of it, stfu, and mind YOUR own business.

 

I do support that.

 

and emily jblue latella and cleavage are proof that what I say about libs is true...

 

they have no sense of humor, and they go all postal when other people refuse to

go along with their emoting.

[Clevfan4life]

if it's none of our business, why are our businesses being sued

to be forced to accept perversion?

 

Leave America's businesses and churches out of it, stfu, and mind YOUR own business.

 

I do support that.

 

and emily jblue latella and cleavage are proof that what I say about libs is true...

 

they have no sense of humor, and they go all postal when other people refuse to

go along with their emoting.

 

how am I going postal? how am I "emoting"? I'm saying I don't give a shit about who wants to get married, my only skin in the game is that people form "true" and "stable" bonds. Stable bonds are what lead to a more decent stable society. Procreation be damned. The world of simplistic overprocreation is why this world is where it's at. We've out grown our resources and because of that, have had to engage in some pretty distorted practices.

[Westside Steve]

 

how am I going postal? how am I "emoting"? I'm saying I don't give a shit about who wants to get married, my only skin in the game is that people form "true" and "stable" bonds. Stable bonds are what lead to a more decent stable society. Procreation be damned. The world of simplistic overprocreation is why this world is where it's at. We've out grown our resources and because of that, have had to engage in some pretty distorted practices.

including......

 

WSS

[Axe]

Seriously,,, do tell... When you get a day off from the postal system of course

[MLD Woody]

if it's none of our business, why are our businesses being sued

to be forced to accept perversion?

 

Leave America's businesses and churches out of it, stfu, and mind YOUR own business.

 

I do support that.

 

and emily jblue latella and cleavage are proof that what I say about libs is true...

 

they have no sense of humor, and they go all postal when other people refuse to

go along with their emoting.

Sure, then let gays get married. It won't affect you at all.

 

And no one is saying churches need to allow gay marriage. And private businesses just can't break the law. Simple enough

[calfoxwc]

so the law is forcing businesses to be affected. So STFU.

 

ignorant woodpecker:

 

Gay Group Demands Christian Churches Be SHUT DOWN ...

joemiller.us/.../gay-group-demands-christian-churches-be-shut-down-for...

Apr 3, 2015 - A gay group is demanding that Christian churches be shut down for opposing ... a Christian family has closed its doors after being terrorized by pro-homosexual .... The Supreme Court will rule on same sex marriage in June where I .....They may pass all the laws they wish, by intimidating the Politicians who ...

 

 

Churches targeted by 'gay' intimidation campaign

www.wnd.com/2009/11/115834/

WorldNetDaily

Nov 12, 2009 - Christian churches in Maine whose leaders encouraged support for a referendum that repealed a law allowing same-sex marriage are being ...

 

 

Threat to burn down local Catholic church over traditional ...

massresistance.com/docs/gen2/12b/acushnet_church/index.html

May 22, 2012 - Activists attempt to intimidate church during Sunday Mass ... Doyle is determined not to allow this to go unchallenged by the law and the legal ... The concept of "two men being friends, not married" has been universally ...