Who takes the fall?

[flyingfooldoug]

I see that as well. And it starts next year. Same thing I saw at the start of 2016, we are just starting from a marginally lower point.

 

Win a few... be in many more.. point towards 2018 to fully get in the fray.

So it's come full circle. Just wait till next year, we'll get em.

That is the most used phrase in our history.

[miktoxic]

So it's come full circle. Just wait till next year, we'll get em.

That is the most used phrase in our history.

 

like an old record that's skips.

[Tour2ma]

I see what I see...

 

Amuses me to no end to be branded as a pessimist as the preseason approaches and a Pollyanna as the post-season draws near... mostly by the same people for my saying the same thing.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I see what I see...

 

Amuses me to no end to be branded as a pessimist as the preseason approaches and a Pollyanna as the post-season draws near... mostly by the same people for my saying the same thing.

It's the preseason optimists that have their panties in a wad right now. For some reason, these guys saw a roster get shredded to pieces and went "oh, we'll win 8 games".

[hoorta]

No....it's not that 4 wins is special or a big deal.....its that 0 wins is embarrassingly and historically bad......and the Browns, no matter what their recent history is, have been historically good......so, no one wants that stigma of being the worst ever....(its a big nasty stain that'll be hard for many of us to wash away)

 

and it's impossible to convince me(and most long time fans) that making the team "this bad" is a requirement to getting good.....especially when there is zero precedent for it.....

 

Most of us question why the cuts had to be so deep....and why every other GOOD team, in history, was able to achieve success, without taking the path of complete failure to get there.....

 

Reading the post below....I can assure you(100%) that the local press, radio, TV and fans are all raging right now.....very little(if any) support for this path(plan)......and many are the trusted and loved Browns vets like Cribbs, Kosar, Dieken and Golic who are ripping the team to shreds....it's certainly not just me.....and, locally, it's almost everybody....(pretty much nationally too, though they are a bit more divided in their far away opinions).....

 

Yep.....radio is raging.....and getting louder by the day......and Im certain they(the Browns) are hearing it loud and clear....

 

I'm with you on the bolded. That empty stadium Saturday will speak volumes too. The PD tossed the question out- and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Cavs out draw the Browns this weekend.

 

 

 

I never said people aren't pissed. You really need better reading comprehension. Though the fact that people are pissed goes to Tour and I's point. You guys miss your 3-4 wins THAT badly? Get over it. This isn't a perennial playoff team that's going winless here.

 

But it is a team with a really proud tradition that Haslam, Sushi and Depudster have driven into an absolute nadir of ineptitude. Talent? Outside of Joe Thomas, probably Collins, and maybe Kirksey & Shelton care to name one other Browns player who would be starting for the Cowboys? Yeah we have some young and promising guys- but as the Raiders proved- you don't need 4 years to get very good.

 

It's cumulative frustration War. Other than the one playoff season since 1999- the Browns have sucked, sucked, and sucked some more. We've seen teams go to the Super Bowl, proceed to stink, and get back to the Super Bowl- like Carolina. MHO- this season is the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

 

Yeah- 3-4 wins is at least run of the mill bad. You see it every year. 0-16 has only been done once before- that, as Mud said- is historically bad. The Browns have been so pathetic the last few games, it's looked like they didn't even belong on the field with the other team. Football is part entertainment, and the only entertaining thing about Cleveland is how bad they've looked.

 

In case you missed it- the Browns sent out a survey to the season ticket holders (of which I'm one) asking in part how they felt about the direction the team is headed. I absolutely blasted them in every way I possibly could. I have a pretty high level of confidence when they collate and analyze that survey for Jimmy- he's going to find out his most loyal customers (there's fans who's families have had season tickets from the beginning in 1946 & I've had mine since 1999) are mad as hell. They'll have one more year to turn this around- and at least look like a semblance of an NFL team- or the Browns will be playing to an empty stadium, loaded with the opposing teams fans.

[BaconHound]

Under the ownership of Jimmy Haslam the Cleveland Browns are 14-48, less than 30% winning percentage, but don't worry he'll figure it out

[CaineDeSoulis]

I expect some changes January 2nd

[wargograw]

Hoorta, you are a whiner with no solutions, like most of them. I have one: let's try giving a regime three years.

 

Fyi, no one was louder than you all offseason about predicting 0-16 yet we have it and you're in full panic mode, shocked at the results. Makes lots of sense.

[flyingfooldoug]

Under the ownership of Jimmy Haslam the Cleveland Browns are 14-48, less than 30% winning percentage, but don't worry he'll figure it out

His HC is now 8-22 as a HC and 0-14 for Haslam.

Math....Go figure

[TexasAg1969]

It's the preseason optimists that have their panties in a wad right now. For some reason, these guys saw a roster get shredded to pieces and went "oh, we'll win 8 games".

 

Actually you can add some of us who saw 0-8 coming, but were expecting competitive football the last 8 that might translate into a few (3 or more for Tour ) wins with hope for a lot more in 2017. But now we are even further back than ever before and with a coach that does (or is it duhs?) a lot of bone-headed game day decision making running he show and a FO with unproven draft skills. After I see what we do in FA and the draft I will decide where I see us headed next year, but at the moment the old eight ball says, "Outlook Not So Good."

[CaineDeSoulis]

Exactly Ag.

 

I expected improvement in the 2nd half of the season not regression. Theres no excuse for the regression we have seen.

[flyingfooldoug]

Exactly Ag.

I expected improvement in the 2nd half of the season not regression. Theres no excuse for the regression we have seen.

2 excuses. Lousy drafting, lousy coaching

[Tour2ma]

I expect some changes January 2nd

 

Can you be less specific?

 

Actually you can add some of us who saw 0-8 coming, but were expecting competitive football the last 8 that might translate into a few (3 or more for Tour ) wins with hope for a lot more in 2017. But now we are even further back than ever before and with a coach that does (or is it duhs?) a lot of bone-headed game day decision making running he show and a FO with unproven draft skills. After I see what we do in FA and the draft I will decide where I see us headed next year, but at the moment the old eight ball says, "Outlook Not So Good."

 

Thanks for the clarification... Coincidentally my last prediction for the season was three wins. And I did not get there by imagining miraculous gelling after an O-fer the 1st half of the season. I still believe that barring injuries we'd have won three.

 

As for the FO bashing... it's just old hat now. Their accumulated wealth of picks plus lack of clear busts in their one and only draft, successful FA sifting and one helluva trade all say they know what they are doing.

[hoorta]

Hoorta, you are a whiner with no solutions, like most of them. I have one: let's try giving a regime three years.

 

Fyi, no one was louder than you all offseason about predicting 0-16 yet we have it and you're in full panic mode, shocked at the results. Makes lots of sense.

 

You're the one who's not making much sense. Give it three years? 1999-2016 is around 5 three year plans- the fan base is finally fed up with it. Empty seats and those ones that are filled with opposing fans speak volumes about the frustration.

 

Shocked at 0-14? What the f**k are you talking about? I predicted 2 wins and now I'm supposed to be shocked that I was right?

 

This isn't panic mode pal. I shell out over $2,000 a year on season tickets and Directv. If I walk into a 5 star restaurant and they serve me up an incredibly lousy meal, I shouldn't complain to the management, and on top of it come back for more of the same crap?

 

I'll let the brainless trust figure out what they need to do to get this joke of a franchise headed in the right direction. I don't need to offer suggestions- like Jimmy is going to listen to a schmuck like me? Here's a suggestion- don't listen to homeless guys on the street when the tell you to draft Manziel.

 

Sorry guy- I refuse to get sunshine pumped up my ass anymore. I picked the name Curmudgeon in the Survival league for a reason. I'll believe it when I see it that this team has turned the corner. My mantra for the last several years has been Missouri's "SHOW ME". 0-14, going on 0-16 yup, you sure showed me alright.

[miktoxic]

 

lack of clear busts in their one and only draft

 

uhhhhhh??? does not making a team constitute as a bust?

[TexasAg1969]

Tour-I sure hope you are right and that my pessimism about the FO proves unfounded. The next few months will tell us a lot.

[wargograw]

 

You're the one who's not making much sense. Give it three years? 1999-2016 is around 5 three year plans- the fan base is finally fed up with it. Empty seats and those ones that are filled with opposing fans speak volumes about the frustration.

 

Shocked at 0-14? What the f**k are you talking about? I predicted 2 wins and now I'm supposed to be shocked that I was right?

 

This isn't panic mode pal. I shell out over $2,000 a year on season tickets and Directv. If I walk into a 5 star restaurant and they serve me up an incredibly lousy meal, I shouldn't complain to the management, and on top of it come back for more of the same crap?

 

I'll let the brainless trust figure out what they need to do to get this joke of a franchise headed in the right direction. I don't need to offer suggestions- like Jimmy is going to listen to a schmuck like me? Here's a suggestion- don't listen to homeless guys on the street when the tell you to draft Manziel.

 

Sorry guy- I refuse to get sunshine pumped up my ass anymore. I picked the name Curmudgeon in the Survival league for a reason. I'll believe it when I see it that this team has turned the corner. My mantra for the last several years has been Missouri's "SHOW ME". 0-14, going on 0-16 yup, you sure showed me alright.

Boy the lack of logic (and math) in your first paragraph was just jaw dropping. I don't even know what to say. How many guys have had three years in that entire span?

 

Oh so at 2 wins you'd be acting like a grown man, instead of whatever this charade is. I'm sorry we couldn't cover that 0-2 gap buddy. I know it's so massive it's the difference in happiness and not. And besides, you're lucky I'm on mobile because on desktop I'd find all your posts where you predicted a winless season.

 

The "brainless trust" has a plan. You have no plan. We'll never get to see the fruits of their plan if sad fans that really want their 2 wins back don't stfu.

[hoorta]

Boy the lack of logic (and math) in your first paragraph was just jaw dropping. I don't even know what to say. How many guys have had three years in that entire span?

 

Oh so at 2 wins you'd be acting like a grown man, instead of whatever this charade is. I'm sorry we couldn't cover that 0-2 gap buddy. I know it's so massive it's the difference in happiness and not. And besides, you're lucky I'm on mobile because on desktop I'd find all your posts where you predicted a winless season.

 

The "brainless trust" has a plan. You have no plan. We'll never get to see the fruits of their plan if sad fans that really want their 2 wins back don't stfu.

 

Just STFU. I never said I "Wanted" 2 wins. I "PREDICTED" 2 wins- at best. If you want a quote "I have the Browns over\under on wins at 2-1\2, and I'm taking the under". If you can find a few of my posts where I said we'd go winless, damned if it doesn't look like I'm going to be right, huh? Kindly quit being a jackass. The Browns have far exceeded my low expectations. If this FO has a "plan" I want to see it's actually working before I start kissing their asses, OK? Want me to quote Shashi about how many wins he expected this year? Think he's going to come out and say we f**ked up royally?

 

When you going to figure out it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if I have a plan or not, Haslam and the Front Office are going to do whatever the hell they think best. So just give us three years to turn this around. Like I have a choice? In Savage we trust, In Holmgren we trust, in Farmer we trust. Heard it all before way too many times, sorry if I trust you as far as I could throw you. We got a bean counter and a baseball guy running the show. Romeo Crennell got three years, Butch Davis too, before he flipped out. If you want to know, the guy I have my season tickets with (I bought in on his seniority, which currently stands at 34 years, so put your thinking cap on as to how long we've been fans) is seriously pissed off too about our current state of suckage. Mud put it more eloquently- if you're embarking on a total rebuild, there was no need to dynamite the foundation in the process.

 

Man, you apparently have some reading comprehension problems- (others have said the same thing). I'm not the first person you've attacked because I'm not satisfied with the current product. So sorry- I think I've earned the right to bitch.

 

BTW, if Sashi and Depo DO manage to turn things around, I'll be the first to lead the parade with pom-poms- 1986-89 was a LONG time ago.

[Mudfly]

Right...nobodies surprised by the record.....just mad....

 

We saw the moves last FA period....we saw the draft.....got mad and predicted shit.....and then were rewarded.....with shit...

 

I remember being told Pettine was so bad, that Hue woulda won 4-5 more games with the same talent....and the consensus was that we fired the staff because the team was under performing due to poor coaching.....so, if the team was "actually" 4 games better, that would make it a 7 win team...correct?(and they did win 7 the year before, correct?)

 

So....based upon the staff all getting fired for an under performing team....here are my 2 questions....

 

1) If the above is true(and the team should have won 7 last year).....why did we dismantle a team that was just a couple/few games away from playoff contention?

 

or....

 

2) If the talent was so bad, we couldnt win.....then why did we fire an entire staff , in only their 2nd year, when they had no chance to win?

 

The 2 choices dont support each other as smart moves.....conundrum

[BaconHound]

Right...nobodies surprised by the record.....just mad....

 

We saw the moves last FA period....we saw the draft.....got mad and predicted shit.....and then were rewarded.....with shit...

 

I remember being told Pettine was so bad, that Hue woulda won 4-5 more games with the same talent....and the consensus was that we fired the staff because the team was under performing due to poor coaching.....so, if the team was "actually" 4 games better, that would make it a 7 win team...correct?(and they did win 7 the year before, correct?)

 

So....based upon the staff all getting fired for an under performing team....here are my 2 questions....

 

1) If the above is true(and the team should have won 7 last year).....why did we dismantle a team that was just a couple/few games away from playoff contention?

 

or....

 

2) If the talent was so bad, we couldnt win.....then why did we fire an entire staff , in only their 2nd year, when they had no chance to win?

 

The 2 choices dont support each other as smart moves.....conundrum

 

 

This is what scares me. Many celebrate the mediocre talent that shines in Cleveland while burying their head in the sand about the complete lack of talent on the field.

[CaineDeSoulis]

I think the pettine fire was partially brought on by firing the FO. New FO will want there guy.

I was admittedly on the fire pettine train early into the season but after I began examining the whole picture it was the extremely weird situation with roster that had me up in arms against Farmer. The Suspension of Farmer. Running off Kyle Shanny, Dwayne Bowe, The missed picks, The Oddities on game days. I remember when Josh Lenz was cut and Brian Hartline's emotional response "I wonder what an NFL roster would look like if players had any input". I blamed Pettine for that cut early on but the more moves we made the worse we became. And all those inactives with bowe and the division of football/front office that became increasingly evident near the end.

We had a fractured team that needed to be reset and it is unfortunate we lost pettine in the deal. Even more unfortunate we have replaced him with a lesser coach.

[Orion]

If the talent was so bad, we couldnt win.....then why did we fire an entire staff , in only their 2nd year, when they had no chance to win?

 

Because the GM was an egotistical dope who didn't understand today's NFL game.

And because the coach was a dopey ghost (the man tried a 60 yard FG with Devon Hester waiting in the end zone - TWICE)

 

That gang HAD to go. You can't have consistency just for the sake of it.

[hoorta]

I think the pettine fire was partially brought on by firing the FO. New FO will want there guy.

 

I was admittedly on the fire pettine train early into the season but after I began examining the whole picture it was the extremely weird situation with roster that had me up in arms against Farmer. The Suspension of Farmer. Running off Kyle Shanny, Dwayne Bowe, The missed picks, The Oddities on game days. I remember when Josh Lenz was cut and Brian Hartline's emotional response "I wonder what an NFL roster would look like if players had any input". I blamed Pettine for that cut early on but the more moves we made the worse we became. And all those inactives with bowe and the division of football/front office that became increasingly evident near the end.

 

We had a fractured team that needed to be reset and it is unfortunate we lost pettine in the deal. Even more unfortunate we have replaced him with a lesser coach.

 

Regarding Bowe- we may never know about that one. Did Farmer tell Pettine you can't cut my guy? I mentioned it in another thread. Mike was also saddled with a humongous albatross by the name of Johnny Football, Puffy Gordon sitting out the year didn't help either.

[wargograw]

 

Just STFU. I never said I "Wanted" 2 wins. I "PREDICTED" 2 wins- at best. If you want a quote "I have the Browns over\under on wins at 2-1\2, and I'm taking the under". If you can find a few of my posts where I said we'd go winless, damned if it doesn't look like I'm going to be right, huh? Kindly quit being a jackass. The Browns have far exceeded my low expectations. If this FO has a "plan" I want to see it's actually working before I start kissing their asses, OK? Want me to quote Shashi about how many wins he expected this year? Think he's going to come out and say we f**ked up royally?

 

When you going to figure out it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if I have a plan or not, Haslam and the Front Office are going to do whatever the hell they think best. So just give us three years to turn this around. Like I have a choice? In Savage we trust, In Holmgren we trust, in Farmer we trust. Heard it all before way too many times, sorry if I trust you as far as I could throw you. We got a bean counter and a baseball guy running the show. Romeo Crennell got three years, Butch Davis too, before he flipped out. If you want to know, the guy I have my season tickets with (I bought in on his seniority, which currently stands at 34 years, so put your thinking cap on as to how long we've been fans) is seriously pissed off too about our current state of suckage. Mud put it more eloquently- if you're embarking on a total rebuild, there was no need to dynamite the foundation in the process.

 

Man, you apparently have some reading comprehension problems- (others have said the same thing). I'm not the first person you've attacked because I'm not satisfied with the current product. So sorry- I think I've earned the right to bitch.

 

BTW, if Sashi and Depo DO manage to turn things around, I'll be the first to lead the parade with pom-poms- 1986-89 was a LONG time ago.

Geez? Melt down much? So you concede we've only given a whopping two guys three years, so tell me again how we've been through five three-year plans?

 

It's funny how you question my reading comprehension then deny saying you wanted two wins....when I never said you wanted two wins.

 

Like I said, you knew what was gonna happen. That you didn't properly prepare for it mentally is not my problem. I don't lose my mind when something happens that I predicted 8 months prior. That's just me.

 

Fan influence does make a difference. And all you and your ilk do with your incessant whining is foster change in the organization, thus aiding in the team being terrible.

[wargograw]

Right...nobodies surprised by the record.....just mad....

 

We saw the moves last FA period....we saw the draft.....got mad and predicted shit.....and then were rewarded.....with shit...

 

I remember being told Pettine was so bad, that Hue woulda won 4-5 more games with the same talent....and the consensus was that we fired the staff because the team was under performing due to poor coaching.....so, if the team was "actually" 4 games better, that would make it a 7 win team...correct?(and they did win 7 the year before, correct?)

 

So....based upon the staff all getting fired for an under performing team....here are my 2 questions....

 

1) If the above is true(and the team should have won 7 last year).....why did we dismantle a team that was just a couple/few games away from playoff contention?

 

or....

 

2) If the talent was so bad, we couldnt win.....then why did we fire an entire staff , in only their 2nd year, when they had no chance to win?

 

The 2 choices dont support each other as smart moves.....conundrum

I thought about answering your questions in detail. I could, and I'd like to. But at this point (as you bring him up in yet another thread), all I can think about is you telling me you weren't bitter about Pettine's firing.

[Mudfly]

Its was a rhetorical question guys....I already knew the answer...

 

I thought about answering your questions in detail. I could, and I'd like to.

Glad you didnt.....not interested in hearing it...

 

Here's why.....

 

When I post, I stick to voicing my opinion.....and avoid going after other posters,calling them dumb or their opinions dumb.....why?.....cause thats what mature discussion is about...

 

On the other hand....when you post....you focus on putting others opinions downs, calling them stupid, telling them what to think, to shut up, to stop saying what they feel, etc.....

 

When you learn to respect we all have differing opinions and can post w/o taking swipes at everybody, I might develop a tad of respect for you and your thoughts....but, right now, thats not in the cards....

[flyingfooldoug]

Its was a rhetorical question guys....I already knew the answer...

 

 

Glad you didnt.....not interested in hearing it...

 

Here's why.....

 

When I post, I stick to voicing my opinion.....and avoid going after other posters,calling them dumb or their opinions dumb.....why?.....cause thats what mature discussion is about...

 

On the other hand....when you post....you focus on putting others opinions downs, calling them stupid, telling them what to think, to shut up, to stop saying what they feel, etc.....

 

When you learn to respect we all have differing opinions and can post w/o taking swipes at everybody, I might develop a tad of respect for you and your thoughts....but, right now, thats not in the cards....

Thank you. Well said.

As far as team improvement goes. You would think special teams would be showing some fire to them and be the first part of the team to show progress. Maybe I missed something somewhere but ST play pretty much sucks as much now as it did in Sept. To me ...that's a good barometer to go by for progress. They haven't. All them rookies and horrible St play. That just doesn't make sense to me. But hey we got the greatest HC ever. He's a whopping 8-22 NFL and 0-14 with the Browns. I really do hope they get it turned around. But that involves winning football games....Period...

[Flugel]

 

 

This is what scares me. Many celebrate the mediocre talent that shines in Cleveland while burying their head in the sand about the complete lack of talent on the field.

 

If you're seeing celebration - put the crack pipe down.

 

Nobody is burying their head. What do you want us to brag about during 0-14 football? "Hey, did you see that gorgeous block in the back again by our return unit?" "Isn't this fun?"

 

To sit here and repeatedly argue about which regime to blame everything on today in the first year of a regime after the last one finished 3-18 in their final 21 games does what for us? All regimes here have inherited land mines, outdated contracts and overpaid veterans (with best football in the rear view window). Even when there's a short window of success like the last staff starting 7-4 or Crennel's 2007 season where we finished 10-6; anytime the consistent losing returns - the veterans stop buying into the coaching staff and game over. The window slams shut on the staff - fair or not. If we finish 0-16, and we start out 2017 winless - how long will it be before the vets quit on this staff too? Again, we've been watching what follows consistent losing since 1999.

 

Newsflash: we've been really bad at drafting since 1999 and it continues to kill us. That's why people keep saying they want game changers instead of draft volume. I'm guessing if we did better in the first couple rounds of the draft in the last 6-7 years or more - we'd be celebrating Khalil Mack's streak of sacks over the last 10 weeks. We might have even had Derek Carr throwing strikes to a Pro Bowl WR like Amari Cooper. Do you know what suddenly stopped Oakland from drafting high up in the draft every year? Getting their first couple of rounds right in those areas of impact we long for. While I'm at it, the TN Titans earned the right to draft first overall in 2016 before trading it away just 1 year after they drafted 2nd overall in 2015. They're 8-6 today. Their last 2 first round picks were Mariota and Conklin. Pretty good impact toward some big improvements on offense there.

 

Now, think of how many times we've whiffed with either 1 or 2 first round picks - and we're going to argue which regime deserves all the credit every single Monday like a sorority house taken hostage by pms? Anyway, please feel free to show me which of our fans are celebrating today or last year...

[gftChris]

In roster news, Trey Caldwell (one of our 5th round picks this year) has been promoted to the main roster. Trae Elston was waived, then signed to PS.

 

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-5/Browns-promote-DB-Trey-Caldwell-to-active-roster/ba7e7323-49b5-4404-826f-01d207eff5fd

[BaconHound]

 

If you're seeing celebration - put the crack pipe down.

 

Nobody is burying their head. What do you want us to brag about during 0-14 football? "Hey, did you see that gorgeous block in the back again by our return unit?" "Isn't this fun?"

 

To sit here and repeatedly argue about which regime to blame everything on today in the first year of a regime after the last one finished 3-18 in their final 21 games does what for us? All regimes here have inherited land mines, outdated contracts and overpaid veterans (with best football in the rear view window). Even when there's a short window of success like the last staff starting 7-4 or Crennel's 2007 season where we finished 10-6; anytime the consistent losing returns - the veterans stop buying into the coaching staff and game over. The window slams shut on the staff - fair or not. If we finish 0-16, and we start out 2017 winless - how long will it be before the vets quit on this staff too? Again, we've been watching what follows consistent losing since 1999.

 

Newsflash: we've been really bad at drafting since 1999 and it continues to kill us. That's why people keep saying they want game changers instead of draft volume. I'm guessing if we did better in the first couple rounds of the draft in the last 6-7 years or more - we'd be celebrating Khalil Mack's streak of sacks over the last 10 weeks. We might have even had Derek Carr throwing strikes to a Pro Bowl WR like Amari Cooper. Do you know what suddenly stopped Oakland from drafting high up in the draft every year? Getting their first couple of rounds right in those areas of impact we long for. While I'm at it, the TN Titans earned the right to draft first overall in 2016 before trading it away just 1 year after they drafted 2nd overall in 2015. They're 8-6 today. Their last 2 first round picks were Mariota and Conklin. Pretty good impact toward some big improvements on offense there.

 

Now, think of how many times we've whiffed with either 1 or 2 first round picks - and we're going to argue which regime deserves all the credit every single Monday like a sorority house taken hostage by pms? Anyway, please feel free to show me which of our fans are celebrating today or last year...

 

 

I've read posts over the the last three years telling me how awesome Jordan Cameron, Gary Barnidge, Terrell Pryor & Duke Johnson are or will be. I could go back and repost them but that's a waste of my time and you're around here enough to have viewed the threads. There are a few that are super excited about Coleman or Kessler, sorry, but I really don't see anything to get excited about any of these players.