The Gipper Posted December 15, 2016 Report Share Posted December 15, 2016 A "strong man" at the top does not make an organization strong... it makes it compliant, dependent. How'd Holmgren work out? Farmer? Lombo? How many "strong", football-knowlegable GMs are there in the league right now? How many successful ones? Great ones? We've fished in that lake for decades now with little to show for it. We've (Jimmah has) simply decided to fish in a different lake... and the pond next to it... simultaneously. Sashi is in charge... of the process... of the organization. In no way is it a "circle jerk". It's a new approach. Its success is not guaranteed, but its failure is far from obvious. You base your assessment on a single year... an as of yet incomplete single year. A year where I'm still not sure we have a certifiable bust in the 14-player haul. One where in my old, "Bust" thread you managed to mention one player, Shon Coleman, who was still rehabbing at the time. And in the process ignore a trade that gives us our only shot a landing one of the prize UFAs of 2017. Well.....we will see. So far, there are putrid results from this experiment. But maybe as had been said elsewhere, we have just sown some seeds with all this, and one day those seeds will grow to be might trees. The game where you tag folks with a leather pouch filled with lead shot? I'd be better at that than the card game. Last time I sat at a table I had a couple Korean women cussing me out... in two languages. Thanks for the positive feedback... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 A piece about the front office adding young under the radar guys, churning the roster to try to find more talented castoffs http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cleveland-browns-front-office-effectively-working-fringes-121516 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 Thanks for the help, Chris... Sounds like something an autocratic businessman used to making decisions would say... ok....thats fair.... A piece about the front office adding young under the radar guys, churning the roster to try to find more talented castoffs http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cleveland-browns-front-office-effectively-working-fringes-121516 Something weve been doing all along.....of course, prior to this season, it was considered "focusing on the bottom of the roster"....which was deemed as bad FO-ing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 ok....thats fair.... Something weve been doing all along.....of course, prior to this season, it was considered "focusing on the bottom of the roster"....which was deemed as bad FO-ing..... I've explicitly said that elsewhere. I'm not here to talk about how amazing this FO and how Gabe Ikard and Tyrone Holmes will lead us to the superbowl, but there have been at least a couple of guys that have turned into contributors in this way. Boddy-Calhoun and Reynolds come to mind, along with that one game wonder at center, Reiter. I may be misremembering, but I don't recall any of Ray Farmer's guys doing the same to any degree, or Mike Lombardi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 I've explicitly said that elsewhere. I'm not here to talk about how amazing this FO and how Gabe Ikard and Tyrone Holmes will lead us to the superbowl, but there have been at least a couple of guys that have turned into contributors in this way. Boddy-Calhoun and Reynolds come to mind, along with that one game wonder at center, Reiter. I may be misremembering, but I don't recall any of Ray Farmer's guys doing the same to any degree, or Mike Lombardi. Taylor Gabriel, Jamie Meder and Willie Snead come to mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 Jamie Meder, yeah I'll give you that one. Gabriel and Snead were basically post draft UDFAs, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 Jamie Meder, yeah I'll give you that one. Gabriel and Snead were basically post draft UDFAs, no? Isn't that what we're talking about? Striking on UDFA's and turning them into contributors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 Isn't that what we're talking about? Striking on UDFA's and turning them into contributors? Mid-season roster churning was what I was going for. But it's not a huge divide, and you have to attribute Crowell to Farmer while you're at it. Having said that, some of the guys we've picked up were drafted by other teams this year, so couldn't have signed as UDFAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 Mid-season roster churning was what I was going for. But it's not a huge divide, and you have to attribute Crowell to Farmer while you're at it. Having said that, some of the guys we've picked up were drafted by other teams this year, so couldn't have signed as UDFAs. Ah, i misunderstood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 Ah, i misunderstood And owned up to it? Fuck, the browns board is reaching new heights! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 And owned up to it? Fuck, the browns board is reaching new heights! Merry Christmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 lmao... tis the season... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 Youd almost swear Shashi wrote that article... Now...lets be honest...100%.....the article sites Darius Jackson, who was just acquired and has done absolutely 100% zero as a Brown(or Cowboy).....and Tyrone Holmes, who has been here since "pre-season" and has exactly 2 tackles on the year(so not what Id call a mid season coup OR good player).......and Dan Vitale, who's only play was a blatant drop of an easy TD.......and Anthony Fabiano, who??....has he even played?......and Trea Elston....again, who???.....and then Boddy-Calhoun, who has played well, but was also a pre-season pick up..... So....reality is....these guys have NOT contributed or proven themselves to be quality players or pick ups.....and the ONE who looks decent, wasnt some type of mid-season roster churn...... I've explicitly said that elsewhere. I may be misremembering, but I don't recall any of Ray Farmer's guys doing the same to any degree, or Mike Lombardi. We've gotten guys, every year, who have contributed as well as this group(in the article) has.....in addition to Meder, Gabe and Crow(also pre-season freebie pick ups)....Id add Pryor and Austin Paztor as 2 "real" contributors that fit the mold.....and, as comparables to the guys in the articles, we've also picked up "short term" contributors like Ishmail Kitchen, Gaines, Nelson, Fua, etc.... Id also point to KWaun Williams who performed at a top level(not just ok) and then was, basically, run outta town by this current staff..... and ALL of these guys have performed longer and better(so far), than those 6 nobodies the article talks about..... Mid-season roster churning was what I was going for. But it's not a huge divide, and you have to attribute Crowell to Farmer while you're at it. Having said that, some of the guys we've picked up were drafted by other teams this year, so couldn't have signed as UDFAs. I think the article is a year or 2 early for this group..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 it's the staff's fault K'Waun isn't on the team anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillmotion Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 yes war, it is. we definitely mishandled him. we tried to make him play against the packers when he clearly had a fucked up foot. then we fined him when he wouldn't play. the staff definitely isn't perfect, so enough of the "they can do no wrong" or "in sashi we trust shit". but i'm optimistic about this draft from here. we can only get better moving forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 but i'm optimistic about this draft from here. we can only get better moving forward. Maybe. If I see us trade down and miss out on either Garrett or Allen, I will know without a doubt we are still run by clowns that seem to endlessly pour out of the Browns circus car since 1999. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 it's the staff's fault K'Waun isn't on the team anymore? Yes...it is...100% fined, then suspended, then cut....for being injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 Youd almost swear Shashi wrote that article... I think the article is a year or 2 early for this group..... Damn you need a hug... bad... It's an article about our continued accumulation of high-value prospects. Their late-draft/UDFA roots, plus the fact that all these pick-ups were cut primarily because they got caught in their former teams' numbers game, testify to this. As such the article is not early at all. Were it written two years from now should all pan out, then we'd rip on it for being a self-serving, 20/20 hindsight, POS. yes war, it is. we definitely mishandled him. we tried to make him play against the packers when he clearly had a fucked up foot. then we fined him when he wouldn't play. the staff definitely isn't perfect, so enough of the "they can do no wrong" or "in sashi we trust shit". but i'm optimistic about this draft from here. we can only get better moving forward. If releasing K'waun was a mistake, then last I saw he's still available to sign. Not sure how not trusting Sashi yet being optimistic about the upcoming draft go together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 Damn you need a hug... bad... No doubt....they broke me....I admit it.... It's an article about our continued accumulation of high-value prospects. Their late-draft/UDFA roots, plus the fact that all these pick-ups were cut primarily because they got caught in their former teams' numbers game, testify to this. I guess Im not seeing the high value prospect part...... As such the article is not early at all. Were it written two years from now should all pan out, then we'd rip on it for being a self-serving, 20/20 hindsight, POS. If releasing K'waun was a mistake, then last I saw he's still available to sign. Not sure how not trusting Sashi yet being optimistic about the upcoming draft go together. A mistake?.....Id call it more of a mishandling......a player who's looked like a very solid contributor needed a simple surgery....Under normal conditions, that player would get the surgery, rehab and then return to the team and continue to contribute.... We(meaning the Browns) tried to force him to play a meaningless game, then punished him for not wanting to risk his season and/or career.....then cut him, as opposed to rehabbing and retaining the asset.... Simple... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 I guess Im not seeing the high value prospect part...... Value = Performance / Cost That's because you are focusing on the numerator. For now try looking at the denominator. With the exception of our new RB, we're not going to get much sense of their Numerators until next camp. So until then take solace in the good review... you'll sleep better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 Any more, I even dont care about the value(cost) honestly....and the last thing Im worried about is protecting Jimmys money......I care about getting impact players and am 100% bored(and tired) with signing a shit ton of lower echelon players....of which we have about 45....bored to tears...... ... get me some impact players at a good value(or not, even) and THAT is something worth writing and getting excited about.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 Damn you need a hug... bad... It's an article about our continued accumulation of high-value prospects. Their late-draft/UDFA roots, plus the fact that all these pick-ups were cut primarily because they got caught in their former teams' numbers game, testify to this. As such the article is not early at all. Were it written two years from now should all pan out, then we'd rip on it for being a self-serving, 20/20 hindsight, POS. Numbers game crunch? What that means Tour is the teams that cut them perceived their talent level as inferior to the guys the did keep. So essentially, we're dumpster diving in an attempt to find something edible. What needs to happen (and we'll know we've turned the corner) is when other teams start rummaging through our trash. Gee- we lost Scoobie-Doo. The past is past, but we'd certainly not be winless if the Browns had a couple of guys on the roster they let walk- starting with TJ Ward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 Any more, I even dont care about the value(cost) honestly....and the last thing Im worried about is protecting Jimmys money......I care about getting impact players and am 100% bored(and tired) with signing a shit ton of lower echelon players....of which we have about 45....bored to tears...... ... get me some impact players at a good value(or not, even) and THAT is something worth writing and getting excited about.... The value I am speaking of (I talk aloud as I type... practicing for SnapDragon) has nothing to do with money. It only has to do with pick/player currency outlay... But hey.... I tried... at present you are simply beyond my healing powers... Here is my long-term Rx.... hang in there until the 2017 Draft, my friend. Then take two #1's and call me in the morning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 Numbers game crunch? What that means Tour is the teams that cut them perceived their talent level as inferior to the guys the did keep. So essentially, we're dumpster diving in an attempt to find something edible. What needs to happen (and we'll know we've turned the corner) is when other teams start rummaging through our trash. Gee- we lost Scoobie-Doo. The past is past, but we'd certainly not be winless if the Browns had a couple of guys on the roster they let walk- starting with TJ Ward. Well... TJ is ancient history now... Not all dumpsters are created equal, e.g., Burger Chef vs. Bleu Provence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillmotion Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 If releasing K'waun was a mistake, then last I saw he's still available to sign. Not sure how not trusting Sashi yet being optimistic about the upcoming draft go together. Didn't say to "not trust him", just get sick of people who think he can't possibly make any mistakes and we should have 110% with the gameplan. The dude is human, and he can definitely make mistakes. For example I can remember a buddy who I have that's a fan who agreed with every draft pick the browns made, even a mingo, and went about how our front office is genius'. He never questioned anything they were doing. My point was just it's good to be optimistic, but we can't have blind faith in every decision they make like some people do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 Didn't say to "not trust him", just get sick of people who think he can't possibly make any mistakes and we should have 110% with the gameplan. The dude is human, and he can definitely make mistakes. Got it.. I apple-a-gize... I let myself get thrown off by the use of third person... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Yes...it is...100% fined, then suspended, then cut....for being injured. Then cut by the team who signed after that for not being able to pass a physical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Then cut by the team who signed after that for not being able to pass a physical. And replaced by guys just as good/better. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Then cut by the team who signed after that for not being able to pass a physical. exactly...which 100% confirms his side of the story...... so....to to be sure....it is your opinion that good players, who are injured, should be forced to play a meaningless game....then fined....then suspended....then cut......instead of getting healed and retained..... you think thats the norm?....got it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 As much as I liked K'Wuan - he was injury prone. He didn't finish quite a few games he started/worked as our 3rd corner. It's probably a big reason he doesn't have a job today. I remembered Gipson showing up with a crappy attitude last year because the Browns didn't give him his dream contract when he made the Pro Bowl despite playing only about half the season in 2014. Just out of curiosity, is he lighting it up for the Jacksonville franchise that did throw him the free agent $ he wanted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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