Baker Mayfield

[Tour2ma]

4 hours ago, Icecube said:

By definition, to be average Baker would be somewhere around the 15th or 16th best QB in the NFL.

Not to go all stat-guy on you, but "average" doesn't mean that at all. What you have defined is the median performance, the performance level at which there are as many superior performers as there are inferior ones.

Now in a normal distribution the mean (a/k/a average), median and mode (the level with the highest count) all coincide,.

But this is the NFL. Where the best players land after being distilled thru thousands of High Schools and then redistilled thru hundreds of Colleges. Their distribution is going to be anything but "normal". It will be heavily skewed towards the top end.

 

Rather than try to rank 30+ NFL QBs in order (no one can be that discerning or objective), try creating buckets of roughly similar performers. This is kinda what hx did in developing his list of those he take over Baker, although I don't think that his approach really answers your question. Brady may not be the QB you'd want to bank on for the decade, but today he is definitely above average.

I may take a crack at it later, but right now I still see Baker's QB proficiency as being in flux... or TBD.

 

[jiggins7919]

I think he would have had a pretty special year of OBJ wasn't hurt. I predicted around 27 tds and 14 picks for him, and that would be better than anything we've ever seen. Is that average? Tough to say. Compared to Mahomes? Yeah, of course. Compared to the shit we had to endure? No, he's all universe. 

[Tour2ma]

Mahomes is clearly something special... run as well as pass. And he runs smart to boot. Plus his improv skills are off the chart.

That said... the talent that is around him at the skill positions is special as well... Kelsey, Hill, Sammie (when healthy)... a stable of good RBs... and even a decent OL now. Then atop it all sits Reid, who remains one of the top HCs in the league and is still a helluva OC. The D is good enough to take advantage of opponents rendered one-dimensional by the Offensive output... much as ours has been in games where our O lights up the scoreboard.

The day will come when we will see if Patrick can elevate lessers around him, but that's gonna be a while.

 

Mahomes and Wilson are top of my heap...

[Icecube]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Not to go all stat-guy on you, but "average" doesn't mean that at all. What you have defined is the median performance, the performance level at which there are as many superior performers as there are inferior ones.

Now in a normal distribution the mean (a/k/a average), median and mode (the level with the highest count) all coincide,.

But this is the NFL. Where the best players land after being distilled thru thousands of High Schools and then redistilled thru hundreds of Colleges. Their distribution is going to be anything but "normal". It will be heavily skewed towards the top end.

 

Rather than try to rank 30+ NFL QBs in order (no one can be that discerning or objective), try creating buckets of roughly similar performers. This is kinda what hx did in developing his list of those he take over Baker, although I don't think that his approach really answers your question. Brady may not be the QB you'd want to bank on for the decade, but today he is definitely above average.

I may take a crack at it later, but right now I still see Baker's QB proficiency as being in flux... or TBD.

 

Well, that all sounds great, now, is Baker average or above or below?  He's below. That's not saying he's one of the worst, but #1 overall pick in the draft worthy? 

[Icecube]

1 hour ago, jiggins7919 said:

I think he would have had a pretty special year of OBJ wasn't hurt. I predicted around 27 tds and 14 picks for him, and that would be better than anything we've ever seen. Is that average? Tough to say. Compared to Mahomes? Yeah, of course. Compared to the shit we had to endure? No, he's all universe. 

It's hard to put him above 16 other QBs. But the 2nd half of the season may tell a lot. But is he better than the QBs the last 20 years in Cleveland? I'd say so. 

[Tour2ma]

14 minutes ago, Icecube said:

Well, that all sounds great...

Doesn't matter how facts sound.

9 minutes ago, Icecube said:

It's hard to put him above 16 other QBs.

Oy vey...

 

[Tour2ma]

Acording to my info, Baker is well above average...

Quote

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) , the average age-adjusted height for American men 20 years old and up is 69.1 inches (175.4 centimeters). That's about 5 feet 9 inches tall. This number comes from data published in December 2018.

 

[Icecube]

9 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Acording to my info, Baker is well above average...

 

It's funny you want to lean on "facts" when they don't support your position. 

 

 

 

[jiggins7919]

The more I think about it, the more I want him back and don't even want to consider anyone else. Who would we get? A rookie? A washed up veteran? No thank you. 4 coaches in 3 years...let's see what year 2 in the same system looks like. He can do it, I'd bet on it. 

[nickers]

His skill set does not look average... But his ability or lack thereof to read defenses so far is very average to this point...  But guys like Steve young , Gary Ferguson and Steve Grogan have turn it on late in their careers.. So I think its too early to finish the book on him yet.. I'm all for giving him this season... It's not like were going to the SB..

[hx214]

2 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

The more I think about it, the more I want him back and don't even want to consider anyone else. Who would we get? A rookie? A washed up veteran? No thank you. 4 coaches in 3 years...

This is what I keep coming back to. 

Most likely you aren't drafting some one better than him in the lower part of the first round that you'll be in.

If you draft another QB you can't draft to improve other areas of the team.

He is better than available vets out there.

I know the one argument is "Well he was a number 1 overall..... so he isn't playing up to that" ...... each team only gets one pick in the first..... if they would have drafted him 10th through 15th would his play be acceptable?  The 4 QB's taken in the first that year..... I still feel he is better than. 

Sam got shafted getting put on a bad team in a bad organization but when I've seen him play I'm not saying.... "Man we could have had that guy!"  

Josh Allan is pretty damn good at times, but other times he misses throws that look like that throw Baker had to Njoku to lead the game off in 40mph wind...

Rosen is taking it up the tailpipe somewhere in the backseat of his Tesla....

 

[ballpeen]

If I had to break down the starting QBs around the league in to 3 groups, at least as of now, baker is a bottom 3rd QB.

[SdBacker80]

I’ve been critical of Baker. I thought our Player Caller and QB let us down last year the most.

And most of us pointed to the play caller and the offensive line.  But Baker played poorly last season.

He has a few flaws.  He needs to keep his eyes downfield when he’s moving around in the pocket.  He needs to do a better job with his reads.  Sometimes he unnecessarily hurries himself and his mechanics are off and his ball sails on him.   He has also had some very good moments.

64

42

86.8

TDs.  INTs.   QB Rating.

RIGHT NOW I can’t put him bottom third but I think I could put him squarely in the middle.  He’s developing definitely not a finished product

 

[jiggins7919]

30 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

I’ve been critical of Baker. I thought our Player Caller and QB let us down last year the most.

And most of us pointed to the play caller and the offensive line.  But Baker played poorly last season.

He has a few flaws.  He needs to keep his eyes downfield when he’s moving around in the pocket.  He needs to do a better job with his reads.  Sometimes he unnecessarily hurries himself and his mechanics are off and his ball sails on him.   He has also had some very good moments.

64

42

86.8

TDs.  INTs.   QB Rating.

RIGHT NOW I can’t put him bottom third but I think I could put him squarely in the middle.  He’s developing definitely not a finished product

 

Here's the thing. Everybody needs to look at Big Ben's numbers for his first few years. Then, think about what Baker would do if he EVER had a defense behind him. What would Baker look like playing for Pittsburgh? He'd be unstoppable. 

Fix the defense, help Baker. Our defense resembles a gaggle of pusscakes with Myles and Denzel hanging out with them. 

[Tour2ma]

10 hours ago, Icecube said:

It's funny you want to lean on "facts" when they don't support your position.

Other than Baker's height vs the average American male to this point what position have I taken?

The 2018 height data is the most recent I could find. Are you saying we have gotten significantly, as in more than 3" taller on average, in the past 2 years?

And, yes, the above is joking around...

Even the earlier Statistics 101 lesson was tongue-in-cheek... but even as such, I hoped it might take. It didn't.

 

Seriously?

This is an opinion thread. There is not universal agreement on what objective measure, e.g., QBR, W/L, TD:INT ratio, etc., we should use to rank QBs.

So there is no factual argument to be made... just posts of an opinion vs. "average" supported by an opinion of which factors are most important.

 

My opinion?

Baker is currently slightly above average with 2nd tier upside.

[Gunz41]

19 hours ago, Icecube said:

By definition, to be average Baker would be somewhere around the 15th or 16th best QB in the NFL. Do you think he is? 

Let's look. By the ratings (and I realize you can argue the ratings alone doesn't always tell the full story but it's a good start)...

R. Wilson

Mahomes

Rogers

Carr

Tannehill

D. Watson

Brees

Herbert

Brady

J. Allen

Big Ben

Dak

Kyle Allen

Bridgewater

N. Mullens

M. Ryan

Rivers

Fitzpatrick

Stafford

Goff 

Minshew

L. Jackson

K. Murray

Jimmy G

Cousins

Burrow

Baker

Tua

Kaskins

Foles

Driskel

Tyrod Taylor

Dan Jones

Cam Newton

Wentz

That puts him at 27, which is far below average. And looking at the order of the list, it passes my eye test as far as being accurate in determining quality of play. I'd move a few up or down a few spots, but it's pretty on the $. 

So even if you can argue Baker maybe a few spots better, he's still around the 25th best or so. Is that acceptable for the 1st pick overall in the draft halfway through his 3rd season?  If the Browns were told,"By his 3rd season, Baker will be the 27th rated passer" would they have taken him #1 overall? 

Of course, I am in no way suggesting now would be the time for a change, no way. He gets at least this season to show what he has got, barring him just falling of a cliff, especially considering we have to see of the passing game blossoms without forcing it to OBJ so often. (But others say the passing attack will suffer sans OBJ.) The 2nd half of this season is huge in determining Baker's future. As things stand, his last year option is probably safe, but if he doesn't ascend from where he is now, a big, new franchise QB deal is not likely. Baker, it's time. You are at a crossroad. 

Hold on a full minute. While it can certainly be said Baker is below average, using this list and saying its accurate is asinine.

Especially when considering that it obviously is only factoring in this half a season. But hey, instead of just throwing out this list, lets look at a few to show how truly wrong it is.

Do you believe Carr is the #4 quarterback in the league? Tannehill 5th? Kyle Allen 13th? Mullens 15th? Lamar 22nd? Kyler 23rd? Burrow 26th? Wentz 35th?

In a real perspective, Baker is somewhere around 20.

Seriously, Minshew is RANKED AHEAD of last years MVP, Laat years #1 pick and ROY

If this passes the eye test to you, then you know very little. What my eyes tell me is that you just don't like the Browns. Everything you post is negative. Which is fine, but just go ahead and admit it or don't be offended when you continue to look like you are trolling.

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

To answer the thread question: No.

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, jiggins7919 said:

Here's the thing. Everybody needs to look at Big Ben's numbers for his first few years. Then, think about what Baker would do if he EVER had a defense behind him. What would Baker look like playing for Pittsburgh? He'd be unstoppable. 

Fix the defense, help Baker. Our defense resembles a gaggle of pusscakes with Myles and Denzel hanging out with them. 

A better defense helps the team.

Baker has some areas to cleanup where fixing our defensive personnel or changing our  scheme or making better use of the scheme we have - these really have nothing to do with Baker refining his skills or getting wiser to the position.

Time, continuity and hard work at his craft should help Baker 

[Icecube]

1 hour ago, Gunz41 said:

Hold on a full minute. While it can certainly be said Baker is below average, using this list and saying its accurate is asinine.

Especially when considering that it obviously is only factoring in this half a season. But hey, instead of just throwing out this list, lets look at a few to show how truly wrong it is.

Do you believe Carr is the #4 quarterback in the league? Tannehill 5th? Kyle Allen 13th? Mullens 15th? Lamar 22nd? Kyler 23rd? Burrow 26th? Wentz 35th?

In a real perspective, Baker is somewhere around 20.

Seriously, Minshew is RANKED AHEAD of last years MVP, Laat years #1 pick and ROY

If this passes the eye test to you, then you know very little. What my eyes tell me is that you just don't like the Browns. Everything you post is negative. Which is fine, but just go ahead and admit it or don't be offended when you continue to look like you are trolling.

I already said it was not the perfect rating system at the very top. And, you go on to admit Baker is realistically around 20th...there are 32 starting QBs, plus a few who later became starters later. If Baker is 20th, that would put him at below average. So, while claiming to disagree with the premise you then conclude the same thing - that Baker is below average. 

[browns52]

On 11/5/2020 at 4:04 PM, Icecube said:

By definition, to be average Baker would be somewhere around the 15th or 16th best QB in the NFL. Do you think he is? 

Let's look. By the ratings (and I realize you can argue the ratings alone doesn't always tell the full story but it's a good start)...

R. Wilson

Mahomes

Rogers

Carr

Tannehill

D. Watson

Brees

Herbert

Brady

J. Allen

Big Ben

Dak

Kyle Allen

Bridgewater

N. Mullens

M. Ryan

Rivers

Fitzpatrick

Stafford

Goff 

Minshew

L. Jackson

K. Murray

Jimmy G

Cousins

Burrow

Baker

Tua

Kaskins

Foles

Driskel

Tyrod Taylor

Dan Jones

Cam Newton

Wentz

That puts him at 27, which is far below average. And looking at the order of the list, it passes my eye test as far as being accurate in determining quality of play. I'd move a few up or down a few spots, but it's pretty on the $. 

So even if you can argue Baker maybe a few spots better, he's still around the 25th best or so. Is that acceptable for the 1st pick overall in the draft halfway through his 3rd season?  If the Browns were told,"By his 3rd season, Baker will be the 27th rated passer" would they have taken him #1 overall? 

Of course, I am in no way suggesting now would be the time for a change, no way. He gets at least this season to show what he has got, barring him just falling of a cliff, especially considering we have to see of the passing game blossoms without forcing it to OBJ so often. (But others say the passing attack will suffer sans OBJ.) The 2nd half of this season is huge in determining Baker's future. As things stand, his last year option is probably safe, but if he doesn't ascend from where he is now, a big, new franchise QB deal is not likely. Baker, it's time. You are at a crossroad. 

right now he is under the gun....they had gm berry on espn.....it was a clip from what looked like some kind of presser this week or maybe late last week....it appears right now they are not going to pick up the last yr of his contract....baker really needs to pick it up in the second half......my guess is berry is seeing the other 3 qb's in the division doing quite well....this burrow kid....look out......if the bengals do it right, i can see them leapfrogging way past us and the ravens in the very near future....and when ben retires, maybe even them......berry sees all this i am sure...

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, Icecube said:

If Baker is 20th, that would put him at below average.

[browns52]

23 hours ago, hx214 said:

Guess it depends on how you want to look at it. This team just made the statement they are more worried about the future than they are this year buy doing nothing to fix the defense, so if you break down the top ten, personally there are only 3 QB’s on that list that I would swap for Baker right now...

Mahomes, Watson and Wilson

obviously if you turn back the clock or change team strategy to win now, you’d add in 

Brady, Rodgers and Brees 

But those guys could be a year or major injury away from being retired. 
 

Carr and Tannehill are a pass, and Allen has some moments but has the accuracy of a knuckle ball in the wind....

Herbert would be a push based on his 5 game career so far. 
 

If you expand out on the next 10,  based on the same criteria I’d probably swap Baker for Ryan and probably Dak but I’d have to think pretty hard. Stafford.... meh I don’t know....I’d probably pass.

then the rest of the way out you have guys like Lamar and Murray who kind of have to have a offense tailored to their play style, so I guess it depends with those kind of guys, I have friends that love that kind of play and others that can’t stand it, (I’d hate to have a running type QB and have to hold your breath when he takes hits game after game and their shelf life is questionable)

After that I’d say Burrow is the last candidate, who some are super high on, but throws 45+ times a game and has 11 TD’s all season.... 6 against Cleveland’s “Defense”... Baker haters say hell ya give me Burrow, I haven’t seen enough yet, so I’d say push. 
 

you wanna win right now? Then turn that list on its ear and go for a high powered Vet. 
 

If I were Berry, I’d extend the contract, build my team for two more years, see what he ends up looking like make a call in his 5th year to trade or resign. 
 

Going off that list of swaps and maybes, that puts Baker at about 12-15 QB in the league. I’d say average to above average is a good estimate.Considering the Browns usual “shit sandwich to soggy shit sandwich” QB play.... 

if the bengals get it right, they will be quite good very soon.....they have a winner at qb for sure.....

[Icecube]

Just now, browns52 said:

if the bengals get it right, they will be quite good very soon.....they have a winner at qb for sure.....

Not only did they just beat a very good TN team, they've been right in every game so far but one. If their coach is at least decent, and Mike Brown can say enough out of the way, Cinci can at least ascend to out of the "clown" realm, into something at least comparable to the earlier Red Rifle era, where they had 5 winning seasons, or the Palmer era, where they were a playoff team, or the Boomer years, where they were a legit winning club. 

If I had to guess, I'd predict Burrow will go down as a better QB than Baker, over both careers. But a lot of football to be played before we know. Both are 1st picks overall. Will both be deemed worthy of it? 

[Gunz41]

2 hours ago, Icecube said:

I already said it was not the perfect rating system at the very top. And, you go on to admit Baker is realistically around 20th...there are 32 starting QBs, plus a few who later became starters later. If Baker is 20th, that would put him at below average. So, while claiming to disagree with the premise you then conclude the same thing - that Baker is below average. 

No pal, I didn't disagree with the overall premise (but there is also a decent size difference in 20 and 27) what I am disagreeing with is the resources you want to use to justify a claim, the exact thing I said about Colin. And you absolutely didn't say "not perfect at the very top", at least not in what I replied to.

YOU are the one who posted this, and this was YOUR WORDS "And looking at the order of the list, it passes my eye test as far as being accurate in determining quality of play. I'd move a few up or down a few spots, but it's pretty on the $. 

So, since you want to use the term average literally, we will use the work few literally, which is 3.

Which of these do you agree with?

Carr Top 7

Tannehill Top 8

Herbert Top 11

Josh Allen Top 13

Kyle Allen Top 16

Mullens Top 18

Lamar Highest 19

Kyler Highest Top 20

Wentz Highest 32nd.

 

See my issue with this and a lot of what you use is that you see one part you agree with and run with it and post. And since part of it is true then it makes it true to you. The same thing with CC. All I am saying is that a single focal point without viewing the entire picture makes you appear to have an agenda and uninformed. 

That appears to be the reason when I do get on here and read the responses to you when you post things about OBJ. It appears as if you have an agenda, as CC does with Baker. Its the reason he runs to discredit anything positive and leaps at the chance to post anything negative. 

You haven't seen me defend Baker or OBJ, all I have done is point out hypocritical statements. 

But let me point out one thing, you can call it defending if you want, but its really not. Since these rankings are based off of this year, 11 of those 26 QBs above Baker have a better record than him. 2 Teams have given up more points than the Browns (one of them winless Jets by 1 Point). 9 teams have scored more than the Browns. So couldn't I use my numbers to make him look A LOT better than 27th? 

Now I am positive you don't care how you come off, don't care what others say or reply to you, etc. 

 

[Unsympathetic]

Eventually, everyone who posts on this forum will realize Icecube is a troll.

[Icecube]

12 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

No pal, I didn't disagree with the overall premise (but there is also a decent size difference in 20 and 27) what I am disagreeing with is the resources you want to use to justify a claim, the exact thing I said about Colin. And you absolutely didn't say "not perfect at the very top", at least not in what I replied to.

YOU are the one who posted this, and this was YOUR WORDS "And looking at the order of the list, it passes my eye test as far as being accurate in determining quality of play. I'd move a few up or down a few spots, but it's pretty on the $. 

So, since you want to use the term average literally, we will use the work few literally, which is 3.

Which of these do you agree with?

Carr Top 7

Tannehill Top 8

Herbert Top 11

Josh Allen Top 13

Kyle Allen Top 16

Mullens Top 18

Lamar Highest 19

Kyler Highest Top 20

Wentz Highest 32nd.

 

See my issue with this and a lot of what you use is that you see one part you agree with and run with it and post. And since part of it is true then it makes it true to you. The same thing with CC. All I am saying is that a single focal point without viewing the entire picture makes you appear to have an agenda and uninformed. 

That appears to be the reason when I do get on here and read the responses to you when you post things about OBJ. It appears as if you have an agenda, as CC does with Baker. Its the reason he runs to discredit anything positive and leaps at the chance to post anything negative. 

You haven't seen me defend Baker or OBJ, all I have done is point out hypocritical statements. 

But let me point out one thing, you can call it defending if you want, but its really not. Since these rankings are based off of this year, 11 of those 26 QBs above Baker have a better record than him. 2 Teams have given up more points than the Browns (one of them winless Jets by 1 Point). 9 teams have scored more than the Browns. So couldn't I use my numbers to make him look A LOT better than 27th? 

Now I am positive you don't care how you come off, don't care what others say or reply to you, etc. 

 

You got that part right. It's just not that important to me. These are just anonymous names in cyberspace about a sport that, come the end of the day, isn't that meaningful. It is entertainment, as is posting on sports message boards. 

I don't have the time or desire to "prove things" on the level of a court of law. As a matter of fact. I would normally base my assessment purely on the "eye test" and leave it at that, not even bothering to go into data such as QB rating. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone is allowed to support previous opinions. But at the end of the day, of you use a first overall pick on any player, they really should be at least top 5 amongst their position by their 3rd season, not even in a debate about being at least average. If you think Baker is better than all but 4 QBs, then God bless, son. You have the right to your opinion. Mahomes, Russell, Rogers, Brady, Big Ben, Dak, Brees, Wentz, Carr, Herbert, Murray, etc. may not agree, but hey man, we all have our opinions. 

[Unsympathetic]

4 hours ago, Icecube said:

I don't have the time or desire to "prove things"

And that's why your opinions are horse shit. 

You lack the curiosity to learn new things.. which means you have zero actual understanding of anything you're blathering on about.. because you've never done the hard work to learn anything about sports [specifically football] or education or for that matter life in general.

Sure, you clearly have pride in yourself - but what is that pride based on? Your opinions are ridiculously uninformed nonsense. You have a right to an opinion, but not a right to someone else's respect as a result of [or agreement with] that opinion.

We are all dumber for reading anything you post.

[Gunz41]

2 hours ago, Icecube said:

You got that part right. It's just not that important to me. These are just anonymous names in cyberspace about a sport that, come the end of the day, isn't that meaningful. It is entertainment, as is posting on sports message boards. 

I don't have the time or desire to "prove things" on the level of a court of law. As a matter of fact. I would normally base my assessment purely on the "eye test" and leave it at that, not even bothering to go into data such as QB rating. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone is allowed to support previous opinions. But at the end of the day, of you use a first overall pick on any player, they really should be at least top 5 amongst their position by their 3rd season, not even in a debate about being at least average. If you think Baker is better than all but 4 QBs, then God bless, son. You have the right to your opinion. Mahomes, Russell, Rogers, Brady, Big Ben, Dak, Brees, Wentz, Carr, Herbert, Murray, etc. may not agree, but hey man, we all have our opinions. 

You see sir, NOBODY has said he is in the Top 5. But you just completely blew up and proved my point in this last message.

Again, YOU said this passes your eye test on accuracy. And in this last message you listed 11 QBs, one of which is listed EIGTH SPOTS BEHIND BAKER in your original post.

But let's go ahead and go off your ASSumption that by year 3 a guy should be Top 5 at his position. Let's use the NFL Top 100 players as a reference.

QB: Lamar, Russell, Mahomes, Brees, Brady. Others who then wouldn't be worth it based on YOUR STATEMENT- Rodgers, Watson, Dak, Cousins  Tannehill, J Allen, Kyler (take him out as 2nd year)

RB: McCaffrey, Henry, Cook, Zeke, Barkley. Others- Jones, Chubb, Kamara, Ingram, Gurley, Jacobs (2nd year)

WR: Thomas, Hopkins, Jones, Hill, Evans. Others who aren't "Top 5"- Godwin, Cooper, Diggs, Adams, OBJ, Landry, Lockett, Fitzgerald, Allen, Metcalf (2nd year), Kupp, Robinson

DL: Donald, N Bosa, Jordan, J Bosa, Hunter. Those not Top 5- Clowney, JJ Watt, Jones, Buckner, Casey, Cox, Campbell, MYLES GARRETT, Heyward, Jarrett, Clark

LB: Wagner, Jones, Mack, TJ Watt, Miller. Those unworthy guys- Barrett, Z Smith, Leonard, P Smith, Davis, Warner, Kendricks, Smith, David

DB: Gilmore, Adams, Sherman, Fitzpatrick, Ramsey. Not Top 5- Mathieu, White, Peters, Ryan, Smith, Thomas, Lattimore, Humphrey, Slay, B Baker

 

Now do you see how ridiculous you sound by using Top 5. And by the way, these are voted on by the PLAYERS. SINCE they have been in the league at least 3 years, by your own words then this is a terrible team

Aaron Rodgers, Alvin Kamara, Chris Godwin, Devante Adams, Chandler Jones, Myles Garrett, Shaq Barrett, Tredavious White and Marlon Humphrey 

All you had to do was admit that you were wrong in equating the entire list as being accurate, but nope, just like you do with Browns players and posts you dug and made it look even worse.

[Tour2ma]

4 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

.. because you've never done the hard work to learn anything about sports [specifically football] or education

Don't forget Statistics!

[jiggins7919]

I honestly expected Baker to have a killer second half of the season...i really did. Then OBJ went out and regardless of what some might say, it's going to cripple him and our offense. Who stretches the field now? Taiwan Taylor? Khadarrel Hodge? It's no secret that our vertical passing game is really pissing our coach off.

If you looked at the Vikings' offense last year, they feasted on some big plays. Interestingly enough, if you extrapolated Baker's numbers throughout the year, he'd actually hwve MORE TD throws than Cousins (30 compared to 27 I think), but it's the lack of explosive passing plays that's really holding us back, and without OBJ, we're going to struggle even more, and also struggle running it. 

Where Cousins edged Baker was with completion percentage and especially with interceptions. Cousins literally had something like 7 for the YEAR. That's just crazy. All hope isn't lost though, and Browns fans need to know that Baker is ranked about 3rd in the red zone. That's no small feat and we all need to remember the Kizer season where we could only score if Kizer snuck it in. It was embarrassing and frustrating to say the least. Baker doesn't just score tds in the red zone, he also doesn't (knock on wood) turn it over. We are extremely efficient in the red zone and much of it has to do with Baker, and he's played without key personnel on offense. 

If you're looking for a legitimate solution to our passing void caused by OBJ's horrific knee injury, my money is on Hodge. Stefanski is quite keen on the converted QB and likes his size/speed combo. We've had a few deep shots called for him but haven't been able to get it to him. I heard on Browns Daily that Taiwan Taylor has been making consistent plays during practice and that we were going to see a lot of him against Raiders (only played 10 snaps, no targets), but the weather drastically altered the way we had to play. 

The biggest problem for Baker Mayfield is our defense. It's so bad, and it's simply too much pressure for an offense. We HAVE to figure out how to get stops and stop relying on turnovers. Harrison also needs to make more plays when they're available. He's dropped two of three pick-6's and those are plays we desperately need. How about Baker Mayfield getting a special teams TD? A defensive TD? Harrison makes that play against the Raiders and we probably win. Gotta have them for the team, and we gotta help out our QB. I'm not even going to get into the damn drops. I'm STILL pissed at Njoku...Jesus that guy. Make the unbelievable catch, drop the routine, all important 3rd down. 

Give Baker a chance, but most of all, give him an effing defense.