Browns Free Agent List

[runyon27]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Don't forget David Johnson...

Henry and Cook finished 1-2 in rushing... and their teams are but a 2020 season memory.

Here are the top 25 rushers for 2020: The number who are rookies or still on rookie seals totals? 16 by my count...

I love Chubb, but RB is simply not a place I choose to spend mega-money.

So if it's pay mega or move on... I move on.

Chubb is special, he may be the best back we had since #32. Our run game is just better with Chubb toting the rock. I understand the sentiment about investing at that position, but I would sign him now to a 4/5yr deal with the back end easy for us to cut ties if he falls off the table. If we have fans in the stands for 2021 the 2022 cap may go up as much as 50 million. I think there will be plenty to go around. If we look in the top tier players now, there deals will probably look good several years from now.

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

There are other unpopular moves I’d make before Chubb hits free agency.

Me, too... like trading him.

[runyon27]

10 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Agree on most... disagree on these 5...

• Vernon - all price and recovery dependent with the latter driving down the former, and as I've posted before we will have all the info on his recovery.
• Goodson - at 28 he's approaching his last payday so I don't see "team-friendly"; he gave us a good 2020, reward him commensurately.
• Joseph and Smith - great vet presence and can still play... I want them in their respective position rooms

And that leaves Lamm... bit more complicated here.

No one can argue (don't take this as a challenge, Gipper) that he did not contribute to our 2020 success. And when your O-line is the strength of your Offense, then you have to have backups that can approach maintaining that strength.

We'll keep 3 backup OL for 8 total... 9 at the outside... plus a couple on the PS. Assuming we return our starting 5 by signing Teller that leaves 3 or 4 backup spots. Presently the candidates for those spots are:

• Lamm,
• Hubbard (IR),
• Forbes (Covid OptOut),
• Dunn (IR),
• Harris (IR),
• Hance, and
• Fabiano.

Clearly Callahan is going to have the greatest input here of the staff on performance level and development potential with Stef concerned about headcount and Barry focused on the Cap. So Stef and Andrew will value position flexibility... Hubbard has it (OG + OT), Fabs has it (OG + OC), and shock of shocks, Hance seems to have it, too (OG + OT). Lamm? Well we know he can flip sides, and that's not nothing.

I try to keep the four listed above, if I can work a reasonable deal out with Lamm... something in the $2.5 to 3.0 mm area with little guaranteed or $2 to 2.5 mm with substantial guarantees.

This leaves Harris on the outside looking in. We simply cannot afford the luxury of a one position backup. Also I should be able to shop he and his cap-friendly rookie deal and pick up a draft pick somewhere in the middle of Day 3... certainly no worse than a 6th rounder.

And the total dead money impact on 2021 is a mere $120k.

I wouldn't mind keeping more, but as my wife told me about my accumulated audio equipment in general and my speakers in particular... "You can't keep them all."

 

I think how the backup situation sorts out will be interesting. I thought Dunn played well, Hance considering how new he was played OK too. I think we have a lot of good options there. I wonder if they do one extra game next season if they will expand the rosters any.

[Tour2ma]

5 minutes ago, runyon27 said:

Chubb is special, he may be the best back we had since #32. Our run game is just better with Chubb toting the rock. I understand the sentiment about investing at that position, but I would sign him now to a 4/5yr deal with the back end easy for us to cut ties if he falls off the table. If we have fans in the stands for 2021 the 2022 cap may go up as much as 50 million. I think there will be plenty to go around. If we look in the top tier players now, there deals will probably look good several years from now.

So $15mm/yr average?

And Baker? $25mm/yr?

Don't forget Teller... this year.

 

There goes your $50mm...

[SdBacker80]

29 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

So $15mm/yr average?

And Baker? $25mm/yr?

Don't forget Teller... this year.

 

There goes your $50mm...

Add some and lose some... Bitonio, Sheldon Rich, OBJ, Landry on last contracts with the Browns

[Tour2ma]

59 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Add some and lose some... Bitonio, Sheldon Rich, OBJ, Landry on last contracts with the Browns

OBJ and Landry are 28 with 3 and 4  more years under contract respectively... so yeah... but they are 3 and 4 years away from the end of their contracts. Not much help in the short term. Richardson's 30 with two more seasons under current deal. All could be cheap cuts before the end of their contracts and declining performance may warrant doing so...

But Bito?

You're going to cut Bito loose at age 32? An All-pro who has missed 2 games in four years... and those were due to Covid Contact... who plays a position where greats have played into their mid 30's?

Well in that case bye-bye Tretter, too. Same age, same contract length, but even more savings than Bito when you kick him to the curb.

 

It's just not as simple as you are trying to make it be... e.g., 3/5ths of our OL going FA in 2023.

[Unsympathetic]

Note that 100% of the current listed "cap space" on the front page of overthecap is the one-year type - best used as signing bonuses because that's the only type that can be one-year.

Our salary expenses this season were right at the cap.  This is best thought of as having no "long term" cap space.  100% of the current listed "cap space" on the front page of overthecap is therefore only the one-year type. 

Players care about the total they receive.. Our best use of the space we have is really the signing bonus.

 

[Tour2ma]

Keep beating that drum...

We need it.

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

OBJ and Landry are 28 with 3 and 4  more years under contract respectively... so yeah... but they are 3 and 4 years away from the end of their contracts. Not much help in the short term. Richardson's 30 with two more seasons under current deal. All could be cheap cuts before the end of their contracts and declining performance may warrant doing so...

But Bito?

You're going to cut Bito loose at age 32? An All-pro who has missed 2 games in four years... and those were due to Covid Contact... who plays a position where greats have played into their mid 30's?

Well in that case bye-bye Tretter, too. Same age, same contract length, but even more savings than Bito when you kick him to the curb.

 

It's just not as simple as you are trying to make it be... e.g., 3/5ths of our OL going FA in 2023.

Of course it is not simple some contracts will be back loaded with a cap friendly number in the early stages, some could restructure and of course the cap will go up over the next two/three years.  Myles deal hits harder later.  I’m not in some Lala land with this...But some older guys that are fan favorites will not play into their mid 30s with the Browns.  Those are some of the tough decisions.

Bitonio/Jarvis/OBJ we shed a 40M cap number after 2022. Jarvis has two years left on his deal.  OBJ has 3.  OBJ has a deal into 2023 that we can shed with a June 1 cut with no cap hit.  The real question is -  Do any of them want reduce their earning capacity on their next deal?  I’d like to keep all three into the the 2022 season.  2023? 2024?  That’s when i pause with some of this younger talent we have and the front office we have now that gives us some hope with their acquisitions and picks. 

The toughest decision in my opinion is Denzel Ward.  Do you think we should give him top 3-5 corner money for 12 games a year? 

But If Chubb wants to sign a 4 yr. 50M deal i think our FO would run a pen to him.  I think that’s a great deal for us. 
  

[Nero]

I get lost on all this conversations, but I'll try to contribute. 

Mitchell not only is a good CB, he is the best consistent tackler in the secondary. Even when he is beaten he doesn't allow many yards after catch. 

The ones that stick out for me are Sheldon Richardson and Vernon. The only consistent playmaker I've seen from the Browns is Myles Garrett, sans some good games by Vernon (when Garrett was out IIRC) and splash plays here and there by Richardson. Maybe it is because our secondary was so bad that the Dline didn't have time to get some pressure, but that's my feeling. 

I think that we have to get some trade value out of them now that they still have it. In 2 years I'd say it will be gone. Depending on what happens to them, we keep Ogunjobi. In the future Garrett will have to be the veteran presence in the room with FA or draftees coming and going, so we could start that trend soon. Plus if we upgrade the secondary (it's easy to upgrade something so atrocious) it will lift some weight from the Dline. 

Higgins should stay and the numbers work for us because he doesn't have big numbers and still contributes. 

I had the feeling that Callahan has made it possible to plug in any player in the OL and it still performed, so I would let him decide if he wants Lamm or not. If he can work without him, let him hit FA. 

[Nero]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

But If Chubb wants to sign a 4 yr. 50M deal i think our FO would run a pen to him.  I think that’s a great deal for us. 

  

If this deal is back loaded, I'd say yes. 

You sign him after this year before he hits his 4th year in the rookie contract, then get at least 2 years under 10mil a year. 

That let's you have him for 5 years (since draft) in a cap friendly situation, and you negotiate there depending on the current circumstances. 

At RB changing chips before 3rd contract I believe is a good trend to help the cap and have the most cost efficiency in the position. 

[Tour2ma]

9 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

Of course it is not simple some contracts will be back loaded with a cap friendly number in the early stages, some could restructure and of course the cap will go up over the next two/three years.  Myles deal hits harder later.  I’m not in some Lala land with this...But some older guys that are fan favorites will not play into their mid 30s with the Browns.  Those are some of the tough decisions.

Bitonio/Jarvis/OBJ we shed a 40M cap number after 2022. Jarvis has two years left on his deal.  OBJ has 3.  OBJ has a deal into 2023 that we can shed with a June 1 cut with no cap hit.  The real question is -  Do any of them want reduce their earning capacity on their next deal?  I’d like to keep all three into the the 2022 season.  2023? 2024?  That’s when i pause with some of this younger talent we have and the front office we have now that gives us some hope with their acquisitions and picks. 

The toughest decision in my opinion is Denzel Ward.  Do you think we should give him top 3-5 corner money for 12 games a year? 

But If Chubb wants to sign a 4 yr. 50M deal i think our FO would run a pen to him.  I think that’s a great deal for us.

Not Lala-land, just not thinking it thru. And it's not that I am... I can only get so far before the numbers I am trying to juggle begin crashing to the floor.

And they can make a mess... wife takes one look and says, "I am NOT cleaning that up!"

There's a reason every team has a "cap guru" these days... and now those gurus have staffs.

No player goes into a contract negotiation looking to "reduce his earning power", rather they (thru their agents) seek to embellish it. Sometimes they do, usually by citing other recent contracts, but most often the value is set by the team based upon what it saw on the field.

 

Back-loading contracts simply delays the pain... they are cap traps. They are what desperate GMs do to try to save their jobs.

Unsym laid it out... if you want a 4yr, $50m Chubb, then front-load his deal by dipping into the carryover space from prior years. But once you are done dipping for him, you are not going have much left for your cap-busting, franchise QB, let alone a UFA defender or two to fill some gaps.

 

2020 happened for many reasons, but one reason stands out to me... our FO invested heavily in our OL. I simply do not see that changing in the foreseeable future.

We will keep churning the draft, FA and PSs for OL prospects that can develop into quality backups at minimum and possibly starters just as Teller did. (Who saw him coming?) However, Wyatt is still not at Bito's level of completeness, run and pass. Bito remains the "anchor" of our OL. He makes whoever lines up on either side of him better for simply doing so. You don't let anchors walk before their time. And while Teller is a bargain today... come 2021's FA "legal tampering" period... he won't be.

If we find a near Pro-bowler-in-waiting behind Bito (or Tretter or Conklin, neither of whom you addressed) who is younger and cheaper, then by all means trade Bito (or... or...), but don't let him walk. Get value to continue the building process. By the time this happens Tretter and Wills should be able to make up the difference, but OL chemistry is a tricky thing and anchors carry even more weight in determining the state of that intangible. No such consideration exists at RB.

"Fan favorite" simply doesn't enter into it... that's an emotional consideration. If you want to achieve and maintain long-term excellence you have to conduct business impassionately. Bill B. taught us that over two decades ago and he practiced it ever since in NE.

 

Ward? You need cover corners. I posted a while ago that his injury history doesn't bother me. There's been no serious, season-ender that required surgery and rehab, just a series of pulls of different muscles and one concussion. That said...

Ward is a cover corner. and while he is our best cover corner, he's not an eraser, not a "shutdown" corner. I'm not sure he is "top 3-5", but then CB evaluations aren't my thing. I do know that he's not a Stephon Gilmore or Tre'davious White that you can put on the field and pay no added attention to his quarter for 60 minutes.

That to me will determine his Ward's contract... so if he will accept 2nd-tier money? Then I hope we can accommodate him... he'd be a great Minniefield to a yet-to-be-found Dixon.

 

[tiamat63]

@Tour2ma, Dixon has already been found.   You're welcome. 

Not directed at you in particular. 

What would hurt about losing Chubb is both the YAC and YAB (Yards above blocked) that he generates.  I've said this a couple times before and I'll say it one last time - Chubbs cross center cutback vision is superior and more consistent than Kareems (so far)  that is what makes our outside zone so damn deadly.

So while I'm confident any RB can produce behind this Oline, could they give us those additional yards and explosive runs Chubb turns out with his special talent? I don't necessarily believe so.    

Which is where the questions about your QB and pass catchers come into play.  Is Baker ready to be the focal point of the offense to the degree where the running game no longer needs to be so dominant?  If so, then great.  Welcome to the modern NFL.   If not? Then you've rid yourself of the best RB Cleveland has seen in generations.

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

@Tour2ma, Dixon has already been found.   You're welcome.  Not directed at you in particular.

 

Which is where the questions about your QB and pass catchers come into play.  Is Baker ready to be the focal point of the offense to the degree where the running game no longer needs to be so dominant?  If so, then great.  Welcome to the modern NFL.   If not? Then you've rid yourself of the best RB Cleveland has seen in generations.

Direct away whenever you see fit, my good man. We're not here to coddle... we're here to learn.... and if challenging and disagreeing is part of that process, sobeit.

So.... Who is the "new Dixon"? Mitchell, the only DB you've been talking up that we have on roster, or your DBU kid? (I suspect the latter.)

 

Your last bit...

Yup... it's a potential crossroads, but it's also premature enough to to be a false choice today. If for no other reason than the contract time left for the two main characters.

Baker... IMO it's obvious that he's now on a path to greater heights. Even if he never attains the "put-a-team-on-your-back" status that Rodgers and Brady (and... well... that's about "the list") have earned, I will maintain that he has enough potential to require less of a runner, if not a run game.

Chubb... totally agree that his vision,  his reaction speed to what he sees and his acceleration rate are special. They combine to generate the 5.6 ypc he posted in 2020. But having to make due with Hunt's 4.2 ypc is hardly running-attack purgatory. Also Hunt closes the gap when yards per touch are compared.

 

My point?

I still see the potential replacement of Chubb as the less penal of the paths forward...

... but there's plenty of time for me to find out or be shown the error of my way.

 

[tiamat63]

@Tour2ma,  yes - Vincent from LSU. 

Haven't seen much (if any difference) from him and Jaire Alexander.

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

yes - Vincent from LSU. 

Coolest thing about him... right now he has a late, Day 2 grade...

• CBS has him at #122.
• Draftscout...
• DraftNetwork #120.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say you expect him to climb...

 

[tiamat63]

8 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Coolest thing about him... right now he has a late, Day 2 grade...

• CBS has him at #122.
• Draftscout...
• DraftNetwork #120.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say you expect him to climb...

 

Gorsh, you know me so well.

 

He'll climb. But it won't be top 50 barring some GM seeing the Jaire comparison I gave.

[TexasAg1969]

39 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Coolest thing about him... right now he has a late, Day 2 grade...

• CBS has him at #122.
• Draftscout...
• DraftNetwork #120.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say you expect him to climb...

 

Drafttek has him at #169.

But there is an Ok. St. one available in Rodarius Williams (#54-drafttek) in case you want to see if we can repeat 2014.  LOL!🤣

[Gunz41]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Direct away whenever you see fit, my good man. We're not here to coddle... we're here to learn.... and if challenging and disagreeing is part of that process, sobeit.

So.... Who is the "new Dixon"? Mitchell, the only DB you've been talking up that we have on roster, or your DBU kid? (I suspect the latter.)

 

Your last bit...

Yup... it's a potential crossroads, but it's also premature enough to to be a false choice today. If for no other reason than the contract time left for the two main characters.

Baker... IMO it's obvious that he's now on a path to greater heights. Even if he never attains the "put-a-team-on-your-back" status that Rodgers and Brady (and... well... that's about "the list") have earned, I will maintain that he has enough potential to require less of a runner, if not a run game.

Chubb... totally agree that his vision,  his reaction speed to what he sees and his acceleration rate are special. They combine to generate the 5.6 ypc he posted in 2020. But having to make due with Hunt's 4.2 ypc is hardly running-attack purgatory. Also Hunt closes the gap when yards per touch are compared.

 

My point?

I still see the potential replacement of Chubb as the less penal of the paths forward...

... but there's plenty of time for me to find out or be shown the error of my way.

 

I think part of something you may be overlooking with Chubb/Hunt is the discount the Browns received for multiple reasons with Hunt, i.e. negative history and being a cog. If Hunt becomes the main guy, his price probably goes up.

As for Baker, he has taken a HUGE step forward, and as evidenced earlier in year I am in camp Baker and think the Browns have found their guy. And sure, some of these guys on TV just have an ulterior motive, but to this point by the numbers, the Browns are 5-15 when he throws 35+ times. Of course there are many reasons for that.

In my opinion, unless it's an astronomical number, Chubb HAS to be extended if the Browns are to reach their lofty goals. Sure, most guys would have success behind the current line, but Chubb had great success when the line was thought to be very poor. There are only two guys on the team that I would say are MUST extends over Nick, and one (Myles) has already gotten his. And Baker almost certainly won't be at the top of market for QB

[Dutch Oven]

2 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

 And Baker almost certainly won't be at the top of market for QB

I wouldn't be so sure of this Gunz...

Remember, for a moment Joe Flacco was the highest paid QB in the NFL. 

[Unsympathetic]

The last game Flacco played before he "negotiated" that contract, his first after the rookie deal? Yep, the one where he was Super Bowl MVP.  Ravens were suffering for several years after that because that was his one shining moment.. Over the entirety of that 2013 season, Flacco was the 25th highest rated QB but he was paid like the #1.

Conveniently, PFF prognosticates Mayfield as a top10 rated QB well into the future.  And he was the top-rated QB in week 15.  And since week 7 [not sure why that week was picked] Mayfield was the second-highest rated QB in the NFL.

[Tour2ma]

10 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

And since week 7 [not sure why that week was picked]

Sure you do... because it made the stat what it is. We hear that all the time on sportscasts, in sports columns. They just don't take it as far as "one every even-dated Sunday when the moon is 3/4's full or better...". 'Cause that'd be stupid...

 

Flacco... 2012 was a good season for him, but he had a great post-season which... as you pointed out... culminated in his MVP SB win. A win in a shootout with the 49ers. He followed that showing up with his worst season, the only one where he threw more INTs than TDs while in BLT.

What changed between 2012 and 2013? Ray Ray re retired... and a top ten BLT Defense fell into the 20's in ranking. For whatever reason (that playoff run?) Ozzie and Co. thought he could shoulder the team and he simply could not... as the entirety of his career outside of the playoff run was telling them.

14 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

And Baker almost certainly won't be at the top of market for QB

Agree with the Dutchman here... His 2nd half of the season performance headed him in the direction of the top. A direction we all hope continues for even greater success for the team.

There's only one hedge... draft a prospect we think might develop into his successor just as Dallas did with Dak to groom him behind Romo... not that that has worked out perfectly for dem Cowboyz...

 

Have I mentioned that I like Kellen Mond?

[tiamat63]

Joe Flacco owes a lot of that contract bonus to Anquan Boldin. Without him, Flacco doesn't win that SuperBowl and never gets paid.

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Joe Flacco owes a lot of that contract bonus to Anquan Boldin. Without him, Flacco doesn't win that SuperBowl and never gets paid.

Sure....they also had a pretty fair defense, no?

[Gunz41]

16 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I wouldn't be so sure of this Gunz...

Remember, for a moment Joe Flacco was the highest paid QB in the NFL. 

Well, it depends on what you want to consider as at the top.

Just going to go off the simple "average"

When Mahomes got 10/503 , Watson 4/156, Wilson 4/140 or Mahomes: 50.3, Watson 39, Wilson 35.

I could certainly be wrong, but I'll say that while Baker might end up in say Top 10 at the time, he won't go over 30. Sure still a whole lot and 20 more than currently, but putting it into perspective with Mahomes, 30 is 40% less.

And I think that it could work out either way for the Browns, but Berry did say no extension yet.

[runyon27]

On 1/19/2021 at 8:34 PM, Tour2ma said:

So $15mm/yr average?

And Baker? $25mm/yr?

Don't forget Teller... this year.

 

There goes your $50mm...

Aren't we rolling over 30 million this year?

[Silver slayer]

Okay I'll try to be nice. 

Any chance of not extending chubb is the most insane chatter by completely inept minds imaginable. 

Dumbest talk I've ever thought I'd read.

There that's the nice version. 

[tiamat63]

3 hours ago, Silver slayer said:

Okay I'll try to be nice. 

Any chance of not extending chubb is the most insane chatter by completely inept minds imaginable. 

Dumbest talk I've ever thought I'd read.

There that's the nice version. 

Welcome to the modern NFL that doesn't like to pay running backs. 

You're in for quite a shock.

[Tour2ma]

11 hours ago, Silver slayer said:

Okay I'll try to be nice. 

Any chance of not extending chubb is the most insane chatter by completely inept minds imaginable. 

Dumbest talk I've ever thought I'd read.

There that's the nice version. 

And you succeeded... for the most part...

 

In the abstract I can agree with you. Chubb is a talented RB who I would love to have on my team.

However,  in reality you are not addressing the questions which are...

What is the value of even the best RB in today's, cap-saddled NFL and how easy are vet RBs to effectively replace with new ones on rookie deals?

 

To the latter I think I showed that it is not that hard. The former you avoided in your post. So I ask you...

Extending Chubb at what cost?

[Unsympathetic]

Ingram just got cut from Ravens at the frail, geriatric age of 31.  His final productive year was at age 30.  Look above at the top rushers in NFL and Gordon at 27 is the only one above 26.. and the 26yo's are Henry and Drake, who will also appear to be a victim of Thanos' Snap sometime in the next couple of seasons.

Is Chubb's performance amazing? Of course. Can we count on him beyond the 2022 season? Absolutely not.

Note, of course, that Ingram's plateau was extended only by the Saints platooning him with Kamara and limiting his pounding each year.  I'd propose that we could likely achieve Chubb productivity... ONLY ONLY ONLY by also extending Hunt and executing similar snap/carry limitations.  Chubb is not Derrick Henry/Eddie George - and that's a good thing.