The Good, the bad, and the Lucky vs Steelers.

[jiggins7919]

The Good:

Quite obviously, we beat the Steelers, and let's not act like it's a given. We lost to Duck Hodges for crying out loud, and ANY victory against a division rival is terrific, but beating the Steelers just feels absolutely sublime. 

I believe it starts and ends with Jacoby Brissett. This guy makes accurate throws, gets people into position (limited penalties), we keep timeouts, and he takes care of the rock. Time will tell if this is a hot streak, or simply how Brissett plays, but my goodness...he's playing with confidence, decisiveness, and total command. How about that throw with a free rusher in his GRILL where he rips an outside pass that was well covered for great yardage. That's a HUGE play. 

Nick Chubb, Hunt, and the offensive line. What else can we say? It's just a treat to watch and if you need further evidence, please watch the 4th quarter drive where we ran 11 plays and TEN were runs. Goodnight Irene. Oh, and welcome back Mr. Conklin. 

David freaking Njoku. Let's face it, many of us were extremely disappointed by the lack of targets Njoku got week 1. Yes, he's blocking like a beast, but we needed more. Well, welcome to the MORE. There was one difficult catch near the goal line that I'm sure David wants back. It would have literally ended the game sooner, but he did get his legs taken out.

That being said, David simply HAS to get better at catching the ball with his hands. On this difficult drop, the ball went through his hands, and if his legs don't get cut, he likely still catches it. On his touchdown pass, the ball once again went through his hands, but he was able to gather it. He has to grasp the rock with his mitts in order to be great. 

The Bad:

Injuries. Losing Anthony Walker is a critical blow and JOK getting hurt certainly makes it worse. Now, Walker is unfortunately gone for the year, whereas I expect JOK to only miss 1 game if any. 

Defensive Line. It reminded me of a quote from a film called Office Space. "What would you say...ya DO HERE?" Now, I certainly don't want to hear anything bad about Garrett, as the ENTIRE game plan was developed around him. It was not a good game, but he was hurt and getting double and triple teamed. Tommy Togaii needs to sit down and have a Coke and a smile. That guy is the equivalent of a screen door on a submarine. So is Jordan Elliott, my God. Bottom line, we need Clowney and probably a veteran free agent, perhaps Suh...as much as I don't like him. 

Special Teams. Guys, I'm over it. 12 men on the field on a FIELD GOAL, a blocked punt, a missed XP, and the worst onsides kick coverage ever. What the HELL is going on? And if I see another returner take the ball from the end zone with dillusions of grandeur, I'll gonna have a panic attack. 🤣

The Lucky.

The Pittsburgh drive after half time that should have changed the game. Some people might not realize this but this game should have been much different, and it appears as if our Browns were AGAIN the recipient of a blown call. The Steelers were absolutely marching the ball against our helpless defense and then executed a BEAUTIFUL shovel pass that got them down to the 8 yard line. Anyone who watches our defense knows that when it gets inside the 10, it's almost always a TD. But...but...there's a flag! 

The ref called an illegal man down the field on a route BEHIND the line of scrimmage that happened very quickly. My favorite football expert Jake Burns said he wasn't sure if this penalty was correct or not and that's Jake Burns. I've NEVER seen it called on a shovel pass. Ever. That was basically a 45 yard penalty. THEN the Steelers dropped a beautiful deep pass that would have been good for a first, a break for Denzel Ward who played an atrocious game. If not for flag, Steelers are up 8, and entire game changes. 

Pittsburgh dropping several passes. My goodness peeps, the luck was strong with us, and it felt like it was about TIME, right? Now, that one cat made about the best catch in history, but other than that, there were 3 massive drops that won't happen every game. 

I'm sorry it was so long, I tried to leave lots for you guys. It's a simply terrific victory and we needed it. I never get tired of beating the Steelers! WOOF WOOF! 

 

 

[mjp28]

Nice job jig.  Winning in your division especially  over the steelrz makes it even more special. 

And how's things down in F-L-A way ?   And as always......

GO BROWNS  !

[jiggins7919]

Just now, mjp28 said:

Nice job jig.  Winning in your division especially  over the steelrz makes it even more special. 

And how's things down in F-L-A way ?   And as always......

GO BROWNS  !

Florida is great, just hoping that hurricane doesn't wreck us! Lol. I already had to cancel a business trip to Orlando next week, but that's fine with me. Looking forward to watching some football and rooting against our division. 😀

[SdBacker80]

Agree with it all.  

Important to note we are probably 2-1 with Watson too.  We spent the last month lamenting the fact that we had a backup QB for the first 11 games and he’s played like a Top 10 QB. 

On top of that, We had our fourth tackle on our roster start the first two games and a backup center and the offense doesn’t miss a beat.  Performance over excuses. 

We don’t have a perfect defensive roster but for crying out loud we haven’t played any offensive juggernauts and we have some dudes on that side.

Denzel Ward had a very tough night.  He had one of the lowest PFF scores in his career. That just can’t happen.

Im done with Joe Woods.  
 

 

 

[jiggins7919]

3 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Denzel Ward had a very tough night.  He had one of the lowest PFF scores in his career. That just can’t happen.

Yeah he did, and honestly, it should have been worse for him because Steelers dropped at least one long one on him on na huge 3rd down. To be fair, it was good coverage and Mitch threw a godly pass, but I'll take it. I actually thought Mitch looked extremely good and made a ton of key passes. 

Ward will come back, he's just too good. I could be mistaken, but I thought he struggled a tiny bit last year before basically winning the Bengals game with that monster pick 6, so I expect him to play better soon. 

Nobody even challenges Newsome. 😳

[syd]

are starters have only played 3 games together it really is like preseason just give em time 

[calfoxwc]

40 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

Nobody even challenges Newsome. 😳

good stuff - that brings to mind a question. Newsome's huge helmet to the small of the back on Wilson -

shouldn't a flag been thrown for spearing/targeting/? IT wasn't though, I just don't know the rule.

[SdBacker80]

30 minutes ago, syd said:

are starters have only played 3 games together it really is like preseason just give em time 

I agree to an extent.  But we are playing in year 3 under this Joe Woods scheme…The entire secondary was back.  
 

[syd]

4 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

I agree to an extent.  But we are playing in year 3 under this Joe Woods scheme…The entire secondary was back.  
 

at the end of last season as i remember are D were playing really well hopefully they will get it completely together on the road at atl before a 2 game homestand vs the chargers and patriots those games will be the true test of joe woods defense 

[Flugel]

6 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

Injuries. Losing Anthony Walker is a critical blow and JOK getting hurt certainly makes it worse. Now, Walker is unfortunately gone for the year, whereas I expect JOK to only miss 1 game if any. 

Special Teams. Guys, I'm over it. 12 men on the field on a FIELD GOAL, a blocked punt, a missed XP, and the worst onsides kick coverage ever. What the HELL is going on? And if I see another returner take the ball from the end zone with dillusions of grandeur, I'll gonna have a panic attack. 🤣

 

I'm sorry it was so long, I tried to leave lots for you guys. It's a simply terrific victory and we needed it. I never get tired of beating the Steelers! WOOF WOOF! 

 

 

Nice job with that Jiggs!   

I was reviewing all the ST blunders with someone online and I can't believe I forgot to mention the 12 men on the field. That really speaks volumes about my attention to detail these days.  Man, the blocked punt and another missed extra point?   We didn't spend a draft pick on York for him to be the next Steve Cox (only trusted for long FGs and putting kickoffs out of the end zone).  We drafted York wanting him to be the next Phil Dawson (accurate from everywhere).  I think he'll get that ironed out; but we need that now,,,

After JOK and Walker got injured - I thought Phillips, Fields and Takitaki played well for us.

A potential concern, our defense got gashed against the run in the 1st half.  I'm guessing our next opponent will test this next week.  

All that aside, I'm very happy this team began the week with a very necessary player's only meeting. It translated into a victory on the field for us to enjoy!

[Bob806]

Good stuff. 

The D is a huge concern. Sometimes these Thurs games aren't high quality due to the short week, but I'm worried that the D is average at best, and with 2 starting LBs out, yikes.

I don't know if a 10 day gap between games is enough time, but clearly some tweeks are in order on D. 

On to Atlanta.

[Flugel]

16 minutes ago, Bob806 said:

Good stuff. 

The D is a huge concern. Sometimes these Thurs games aren't high quality due to the short week, but I'm worried that the D is average at best, and with 2 starting LBs out, yikes.

I don't know if a 10 day gap between games is enough time, but clearly some tweeks are in order on D. 

On to Atlanta.

 

I understand why you feel that way Bob.  This is just another way of looking at it - and I could end up being wrong here.  Even though Walker has the most experience - I think he's overrated.  I don't care if he's one of those PFF All Planet players some people use as their football Bible - the eye ball test has me grouping him with the dime a dozen guys (meaning I don't expect a drop-off in his absence and I didn't see one Thursday).  As for JOK, I'm kind of getting used to him being injured and unavailable.  All his upside is exciting; but it's also a tease if this guy isn't going to be healthy enough to play for us very often. 

The biggest concern I had was in the 1st half watching Pittsburgh run the ball down the Browns' esophagus in spite of Pittsburgh's very mediocre Offensive Line.  DT was a glaring weakness that wasn't addressed in this draft. The guy that seemed most promising (Winfrey) has been a head case so far, so it doesn't look to me like the FO was very thorough with that position.  We're gonna face better offensive lines than Pittsburgh - so that's my biggest concern (beside STs) as our next opponent(s) will definitely test our IDL.

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

The biggest concern I had was in the 1st half watching Pittsburgh run the ball down the Browns' esophagus in spite of Pittsburgh's very mediocre Offensive Line.  DT was a glaring weakness that wasn't addressed in this draft. The guy that seemed most promising (Winfrey) has been a head case so far, so it doesn't look to me like the FO was very thorough with that position.  We're gonna face better offensive lines than Pittsburgh - so that's my biggest concern (beside STs) as our next opponent(s) will definitely test our IDL.

My friend that I went to the game with and I were discussing the DT position, he's convinced that to hope a high pick is used on a DT down the road is an exercise in futility. It does seem like this front office does not think IDL are worthy of high picks, and can be found later. We'll see. 

[Flugel]

29 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

My friend that I went to the game with and I were discussing the DT position, he's convinced that to hope a high pick is used on a DT down the road is an exercise in futility. It does seem like this front office does not think IDL are worthy of high picks, and can be found later. We'll see. 

It has hurt the Browns in the past with 1st round picks like Gerrard Warren and Phil Taylor. Not to worry though because the Browns don't have any 1st round picks in the next 2 drafts.  I think we can get a good prospect in round 2 or 3.  

Think about it:  Do we need any RBs, QBs, TEs in round 2?  Furthermore, we already have two 1st round draft picks starting at Corner.  If there's a big explosive/overpowering guy that can occupy 2 blockers and/or push the pocket back in round 2 or 3 - I think it can help this team if we remain weak at DT.  You're friend probably remembers Butch Davis drafting Gerrard Warren over LaDainian Tomlinson, which was an epic failure.  That was more because Butch drafted a very average and lazy prospect in lieu of a guy ready to be a superstar.  Not too long after that, Jamal Lewis had over 500 yards rushing on the Browns in just 6 quarters of football 1 season.  Like anything, they have to research these guys.  Somebody should have known Winfrey was a head case in a year the Browns weren't making their first selection until round 3.  Somebody should have known Winfrey was a head case because the Browns didn't have much room for error in round 4.  I thought UConn's Travis Jones was a strong prospect for us that went to the Rats in round 3 at #76 overall.  The good news is the Browns are very happy they CB Martin Emerson at #68 and so am I at this point.  I think our other 2 picks in that round Wright and Bell will help us too.  

In 2023, they can address the DT position in free agency or with a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick if necessary.  They only looked bad against Pittsburgh so we'll see what the rest of the year shows us about the IDL.

[SdBacker80]

To quote Jerry Jones “you can’t have it all”  Unless you are Ohio State they appear to have it all. 

The Browns have decided based upon the roster composition and future financial commitments that the QB position, Offensive line, DE, Secondary  demand the largest focus when it comes to expending draft capital and spending money. Those groups better be buttoned up and polished.  I think we all expect very good to elite play here. I don’t like that we are weak up the middle - at each level by the way. I’m pissed we are losing track of WRs though and we have one loss to show because of it. 
 

DT will get addressed perhaps during this year, definitely next draft and free agency.   In the meantime, the WR group is humming along, the offensive line, the QB room.  We had major concerns some injuries, suspensions with each.  It is early and there is still work but Coach it up, scheme it up and understand in the salary cap era we can’t have it all. 
 

The FO can’t give Joe Woods everything…we are certainly doing our best to give him everything he needs.

Same with Special Teams.  Can we get aligned correctly (we weren’t on the jets onside kick) and then 12 men this week and the fake the week before. 

 

[Dutch Oven]

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

It has hurt the Browns in the past with 1st round picks like Gerrard Warren and Phil Taylor. Not to worry though because the Browns don't have any 1st round picks in the next 2 drafts.  I think we can get a good prospect in round 2 or 3.  

Think about it:  Do we need any RBs, QBs, TEs in round 2?  Furthermore, we already have two 1st round draft picks starting at Corner.  If there's a big explosive/overpowering guy that can occupy 2 blockers and/or push the pocket back in round 2 or 3 - I think it can help this team if we remain weak at DT.  You're friend probably remembers Butch Davis drafting Gerrard Warren over LaDainian Tomlinson, which was an epic failure.  That was more because Butch drafted a very average and lazy prospect in lieu of a guy ready to be a superstar.  Not too long after that, Jamal Lewis had over 500 yards rushing on the Browns in just 6 quarters of football 1 season.  Like anything, they have to research these guys.  Somebody should have known Winfrey was a head case in a year the Browns weren't making their first selection until round 3.  Somebody should have known Winfrey was a head case because the Browns didn't have much room for error in round 4.  I thought UConn's Travis Jones was a strong prospect for us that went to the Rats in round 3 at #76 overall.  The good news is the Browns are very happy they CB Martin Emerson at #68 and so am I at this point.  I think our other 2 picks in that round Wright and Bell will help us too.  

In 2023, they can address the DT position in free agency or with a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick if necessary.  They only looked bad against Pittsburgh so we'll see what the rest of the year shows us about the IDL.

Oh I agree, and so would my friend, we are all on the same page about wanting the Browns to invest high on a DT. It's just that he and I have our doubts that this is something the Browns front office has any interest in doing. I'm all for it, for the right guy. (Now, I thought the F.O. also felt this way about LBs, and then they go and take JOK in the first, so there's a chance a DT high could happen too of course). 

My three top wants next draft is the same as they wete last draft - DE, DT and WR. OTackle probably will replace WR, honestly. 

[Flugel]

20 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

To quote Jerry Jones “you can’t have it all”  Unless you are Ohio State they appear to have it all. 

The Browns have decided based upon the roster composition and future financial commitments that the QB position, Offensive line, DE, Secondary  demand the largest focus when it comes to expending draft capital and spending money. Those groups better be buttoned up and polished.  I think we all expect very good to elite play here. I don’t like that we are weak up the middle - at each level by the way. I’m pissed we are losing track of WRs though and we have one loss to show because of it. 
 

DT will get addressed perhaps during this year, definitely next draft and free agency.   In the meantime, the WR group is humming along, the offensive line, the QB room.  We had major concerns some injuries, suspensions with each.  It is early and there is still work but Coach it up, scheme it up and understand in the salary cap era we can’t have it all. 
 

The FO can’t give Joe Woods everything…we are certainly doing our best to give him everything he needs.

Same with Special Teams.  Can we get aligned correctly (we weren’t on the jets onside kick) and then 12 men this week and the fake the week before. 

 

We're discussing concerns about the IDL and stopping the run. Not who we carefully assign 100% of the blame at.  I know you hate Joe Woods and you're not the only one concerned about him. That said, we also have a Head Coach that should be overseeing the repeated avoidable mistakes on the STs and Defense. 

Whoever called the plays when the Browns beat Pittsburgh in the playoffs did a pretty good job as the scoring 48 points reminds us - no reason our HC can't give the same guy that role when 2 other units need more of his attention.  Speaking of which, we did go 11-5 that year they shelled out some money for FA DT Sheldon Richardson.  

 

 

 

[tiamat63]

22 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

  It is early and there is still work but Coach it up, scheme it up and understand in the salary cap era we can’t have it all. 

 

The FO can’t give Joe Woods everything…we are certainly doing our best to give him everything he needs.

 

2002 Colts defense 

37 rush att vs in the playoffs 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200301040nyj.htm

 

2003 colts defense 

27 rush att vs in the playoffs 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2003.htm

 

2004 colts defense 

35 rush att vs in the playoffs 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200301040nyj.htm

 

2005 colts defense 

37 rush att vs in the playoffs

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200601150clt.htm

 

......

 

 The years after, even including the SuperBowl run, were not kind.   In truth, had the colts a defensive interior to match Freeney and Mathis, they likely would have gone to back to back Superbowls and not choked in 07 or 08 either. 

 I consider those colts teams as the predecessors to the current NFL as their primary personnel emphasis was on the passing game and pass rush.  Especially in the AFCS at that point, which had no offense able to keep pace with Peyton Manning.  

 Anytime Indy faced a team that would attempt to win a shootout, go match for match at receiver or try to neutralize their pass rush via Oline and the quick pass game, those teams quickly fell behind.  You simply weren't going to beat Peyton at his own game. 

 Enter New England, San Diego and Pittsburgh. Teams with offensive balance, but head coaches that were willing to run the rock early and often.   As a result, you ended up with, at the time, were considered serious upsets.    Because the most fundamentally and easily exploitable portion of your defense was so wildly imbalanced in relation to the rest of the teams strengths.  It's no different then how we've see TEN with Derrick Henry get upsets on KC and BUF back to back years. 

INDY was built to beat teams inferior to them, or teams designed in a similar mold.  As I'm convinced they were at least a decade ahead of their time in this thought process.

The 2005 colts would thrive 17 years later in the modern NFL. 

 

There is no "coach it up" when you straight up lack talent.  That's akin to telling me to make the offense work with Johnny Manziel at QB.  

"Scheme it up"...  I'm going to need to see some specifics on how you would design things around our current defensive issues before giving you my thoughts.  Because if you're going to say something like that, I'd expect details from someone possessed of knowledge. 

Nobody would have blamed Tito for the Tribe getting 75 wins and an outside shot at a wildcard game. Not with the roster they currently have. But he overachieved with this group in classic Tito fashion.  The problem with football, is that it's a much more ecosystem and physically driven game.  So asking any coach to take 2nd and 3rd stringers, then forming a cohesive and effective unit that can mask their collective weakness is unfair and not founded in reality.  Coaches might able to get all they can, but that mileage isn't very much with this current IDL group.   There's a reason they start off drives hot, then look beaten down by middle of the 3rd.

 I'm not saying it's possible to find Haloti Ngata and park him along this interior group.  But I can't have teams, week after week, use the same methods to exploit systemic weakness.  Because then we start to speak to things that go further up the chain of command than Joe Woods'.  

 

 

 

 

 

[SdBacker80]

We are 2-1 because of our secondary.
 

That’s not to say the weak defensive interior will get taken advantage this week when Atlanta runs zone read plays.

But to date NFL is a bottom line game.  Our overpriced secondary which I expected more from has let this team down.  Pardon my focus here 

We better step up here: London and Pitts are tough matchups.  And we know Joe doesn’t like to bring pressure 
 

 

[Flugel]

On 9/25/2022 at 12:00 PM, SdBacker80 said:

To quote Jerry Jones “you can’t have it all”  Unless you are Ohio State they appear to have it all. 

The Browns have decided based upon the roster composition and future financial commitments that the QB position, Offensive line, DE, Secondary  demand the largest focus when it comes to expending draft capital and spending money. Those groups better be buttoned up and polished.  I think we all expect very good to elite play here. I don’t like that we are weak up the middle - at each level by the way. I’m pissed we are losing track of WRs though and we have one loss to show because of it. 
 

DT will get addressed perhaps during this year, definitely next draft and free agency.   In the meantime, the WR group is humming along, the offensive line, the QB room.  We had major concerns some injuries, suspensions with each.  It is early and there is still work but Coach it up, scheme it up and understand in the salary cap era we can’t have it all. 
 

The FO can’t give Joe Woods everything…we are certainly doing our best to give him everything he needs.

Same with Special Teams.  Can we get aligned correctly (we weren’t on the jets onside kick) and then 12 men this week and the fake the week before. 

 

Speaking of Ohio State, how did they lose to Michigan?  They lost in the trenches,  It doesn't matter how much Ohio State rathouses everyone else this year.  If they're not ready to stop the run against a legit team - they're not going to win it all. 

As for giving Joe Woods everything?  Myles Garrett was drafted back in 2017.  It's 2022; and where are any other bad asses on the Defensive Line?  While JOK and Delpit seemed like ideal choices, both have missed more games to injury than they have started to date. Should we blame the Coordinator for those high round guys being injury prone?   Delpit had some injuries at LSU too.  So who else have we been spoiling Woods with?  I'll concede the 2 first round corners are nice.  And the rookie Emerson is already playing well.  The breakdowns on the field are from the players not communicating.  If they had any questions at all during the week of preparation - wasn't that a better time for professionals to make sure they got their answer?  And what about halftime or in between series.  This isn't youth football - it's okay to blame players too. 

I LOVE to celebrate the Browns running game and the best starting Guards tandem in the league.  Our whole offense is built around that so I find it odd that people are okay with we'll just blame Woods for everything and it'll all work out as soon as he gets fired. 

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

Speaking of Ohio State, how did they lose to Michigan?  They lost in the trenches,  It doesn't matter how much Ohio State rathouses everyone else this year.  If they're not ready to stop the run against a legit team - they're not going to win it all. 

As for giving Joe Woods everything?  Myles Garrett was drafted back in 2017.  It's 2022; and where are any other bad asses on the Defensive Line?  While JOK and Delpit seemed like ideal choices, both have missed more games to injury than they have started to date. Should we blame the Coordinator for those high round guys being injury prone?   Delpit had some injuries at LSU too.  So who else have we been spoiling Woods with?  I'll concede the 2 first round corners are nice.  And the rookie Emerson is already playing well.  The breakdowns on the field are from the players not communicating.  If they had any questions at all during the week of preparation - wasn't that a better time for professionals to make sure they got their answer?  And what about halftime or in between series.  This isn't youth football - it's okay to blame players too. 

I LOVE to celebrate the Browns running game and the best starting Guards tandem in the league.  Our whole offense is built around that so I find it odd that people are okay with we'll just blame Woods for everything and it'll all work out as soon as he gets fired. 

Ohio State didn’t have good secondary play either just like the Browns

I gotta eat lunch. I’ll shoot these out…
 

2022- first two picks on defense.

2021- first two picks on defense.

2020- three of our first four picks on Defense.

 

We’ve done nothing for Myles except add one of the best free agent defensive pickups (back to back years) Jadevon Clowney to add to the other side.
 

I would celebrate our offensive line because we had a guy Seattle didn’t want as our starting center.  He looks good thus far. James Hudson year 1 to 2 looks like a different guy. Injuries throughout the past three years it’s just next man up.

[Dutch Oven]

7 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 INDY was built to beat teams inferior to them, or teams designed in a similar mold.  As I'm convinced they were at least a decade ahead of their time in this thought process.

The 2005 colts would thrive 17 years later in the modern NFL.   

I always thought the plan of attack of those Colts team was: We have Peyton Manning, we are going to score a lot of points on you quickly, you are going to be behind and become one-dimensional, we are going to pin our ears back with our great DEnds and kill your quarterback. 

Hence why a team paying their QB a ton of money, and using a ton of space on him, Harrison, etc went cheap at DTackle, because they thought they could. 

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

Ohio State didn’t have good secondary play either just like the Browns

I gotta eat lunch. I’ll shoot these out…
 

2022- first two picks on defense.

2021- first two picks on defense.

2020- three of our first four picks on Defense.

 

We’ve done nothing for Myles except add one of the best free agent defensive pickups (back to back years) Jadevon Clowney to add to the other side.
 

I would celebrate our offensive line because we had a guy Seattle didn’t want as our starting center.  He looks good thus far. James Hudson year 1 to 2 looks like a different guy. Injuries throughout the past three years it’s just next man up.

You're gonna do that?  Baker was a 1st overall pick and OL Austin Corbett was the 1st pick in round 2 at #33 overall same year.  We added veteran WR Jarvis Landry and a little while later we added OBJ.  TE David Njoku was drafted in round 1.  We added Wills in round 1 of 2020 to play LT for pass pro.  We paid big $ to TE Austin Hooper and drafted another TE Harrison Bryant.  All that and what was the highest our passing game has ranked?  So, what did we have to do?  Commit 230 million $ to a QB that is suspended for 11 games this year.  Here's the sad thing, we had the 1st overall pick in 2017 when we could have just drafted our 230 million $ man that we also surrendered THREE 1st round draft picks for instead of just drafting him under the rookie salary cap restrictions.  

Again, Myles Garrett is our biggest and only bad ass on the DL against the run.  

I already conceded we have 2 very good corners that we spent 1st round picks on (Ward and Newsome).  JOK needs to stay healthy long enough for people to get excited about counting on him and same with Grant Delpit.  Both guys are durability concerns until proven otherwise.  

If teams gash our DTs- it's not because of the DC.  It's because we're getting what we paid for.  When we spent money on Sheldon Richardson, we went 11-5 and won in the first round of the playoffs.  Maybe that's just a coincidence but our IDL sure felt a lot more reliable that year.  We got rid of him but not to worry we had Billings who refused to play his 1st year and showed up overweight and empty hearted the next year.  Then we drafted a head case like Winfrey in round 4 of 2022 - but let's make sure we keep all the blame on the DC trying to attack running games with pawns.  Having said that, it didn't look like there was any drop-off after losing LBers Walker and JOK to injury.  Fields, Takitaki and Phillips all played pretty well.  Clowney can give us a good pass rush when he feels like it.  The former 1st overall pick gave us 9 sacks in a 17 game season but I don't think he's anything special at all against the run. 

 

 

 

 

[SdBacker80]

31 minutes ago, Flugel said:

You're gonna do that?  Baker was a 1st overall pick and OL Austin Corbett was the 1st pick in round 2 at #33 overall same year.  We added veteran WR Jarvis Landry and a little while later we added OBJ.  TE David Njoku was drafted in round 1.  We added Wills in round 1 of 2020 to play LT for pass pro.  We paid big $ to TE Austin Hooper and drafted another TE Harrison Bryant.  All that and what was the highest our passing game has ranked?  So, what did we have to do?  Commit 230 million $ to a QB that is suspended for 11 games this year.  Here's the sad thing, we had the 1st overall pick in 2017 when we could have just drafted our 230 million $ man that we also surrendered THREE 1st round draft picks for instead of just drafting him under the rookie salary cap restrictions.  

Again, Myles Garrett is our biggest and only bad ass on the DL against the run.  

I already conceded we have 2 very good corners that we spent 1st round picks on (Ward and Newsome).  JOK needs to stay healthy long enough for people to get excited about counting on him and same with Grant Delpit.  Both guys are durability concerns until proven otherwise.  

If teams gash our DTs- it's not because of the DC.  It's because we're getting what we paid for.  When we spent money on Sheldon Richardson, we went 11-5 and won in the first round of the playoffs.  Maybe that's just a coincidence but our IDL sure felt a lot more reliable that year.  We got rid of him but not to worry we had Billings who refused to play his 1st year and showed up overweight and empty hearted the next year.  Then we drafted a head case like Winfrey in round 4 of 2022 - but let's make sure we keep all the blame on the DC trying to attack running games with pawns.  Having said that, it didn't look like there was any drop-off after losing LBers Walker and JOK to injury.  Fields, Takitaki and Phillips all played pretty well.  Clowney can give us a good pass rush when he feels like it.  The former 1st overall pick gave us 9 sacks in a 17 game season but I don't think he's anything special at all against the run. 

 

 

 

 

Haha.  Yeah I did.

Recent history of our top 8 picks in the last three drafts  7 of those picks have been on the defensive side of the ball.  Doesn’t seem like a team not making the effort. 

No objection to the QB under the rookie scale point.  Blame Baker he was supposed to be that guy. 
 

What defensive breakdowns happened in the Panther game?  Did our interior defensive line give Delpit and Company too much time to not communicate well?

so we let a TE roam free and Baker hit his easiest pass TD ever and we cleaned this up the following week?  Second and third time something like this happens I point at the top.   

Jets game when we blitzed three or four and dropped everyone back in coverage- what coverage did we actually employ?  Looked broken to me. I thought we had keeping it all in front of the defense covered the past three years 

 None of this suggests I’m happy with what we have at DT.   

Do you think Clowney is not good against the run? 

 

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

I always thought the plan of attack of those Colts team was: We have Peyton Manning, we are going to score a lot of points on you quickly, you are going to be behind and become one-dimensional, we are going to pin our ears back with our great DEnds and kill your quarterback. 

Hence why a team paying their QB a ton of money, and using a ton of space on him, Harrison, etc went cheap at DTackle, because they thought they could. 

 And that was pretty much it.  The Walsh/Wyche version of the "west coast" - throw early and often, then run the ball late(r) once you've built a lead.   Problem is, doesn't always end up working out like that.  

 

18 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

?  Looked broken to me. I thought we had keeping it all in front of the defense covered the past three years 

 None of this suggests I’m happy with what we have at DT.   

Do you think Clowney is not good against the run? 

 

The first line suggests that "keeping it all in front of them" was a sound defensive strategy in your opinion?

 

 

RE: the secondary vis a vis the Dfront.   One fix is done with better communication, better preparation and experience.       Little beyond an infusion of talent itself will fix the other.     So there are differences in terms of solutions that are being overlooked here.  

 

 

 

[Flugel]

14 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Haha.  Yeah I did.

Recent history of our top 8 picks in the last three drafts  7 of those picks have been on the defensive side of the ball.  Doesn’t seem like a team not making the effort. 

No objection to the QB under the rookie scale point.  Blame Baker he was supposed to be that guy. 
 

What defensive breakdowns happened in the Panther game?  Did our interior defensive line give Delpit and Company too much time to not communicate well?

so we let a TE roam free and Baker hit his easiest pass TD ever and we cleaned this up the following week?  Second and third time something like this happens I point at the top.   

Jets game when we blitzed three or four and dropped everyone back in coverage- what coverage did we actually employ?  Looked broken to me. I thought we had keeping it all in front of the defense covered the past three years 

 None of this suggests I’m happy with what we have at DT.   

Do you think Clowney is not good against the run? 

 

I can work with a lot of that especially that 1st line.

Did Baker draft himself at #1 overall?  No.  Did Cleveland draft 1st overall in 2017?  That draft KC drafted Patrick Mahomes at #10 overall while Houston drafted Watson at #12 overall.  Just think, if this franchise knew how to draft a QB - you wouldn't have been burdened with Baker right?  Before you inform me a lot of people had questions about both guys - are you supposed to draft best football in rear the view mirror?  Or, are you supposed to have all the right staff employed so you can draft and develop a guy with best football ahead (like Josh Allen)?

Your question about did the IDL give Delpit enough time to communicate.  If he prepared properly in the film room - communication could have began as early as the pre-snap read of the formation. Same with the corner on that side of the field for that matter.  You just want to funnel any/al blame to just the DC, not the players or the position coaches or the HC for teaching moments.  Again, we have a HC with more responsibility than just the offense.   You said you go straight to the top to assign blame but you're not doing that.  Parcels used to go up 1 side of Bill Belichick and down the other if there was something the Defense was doing that he wanted fixed immediately.  And why?  Because he was the Head Coach.  

Are you missing Bob Slowik's 20 yard cushions or something.  Let me tell you how much fun that was watching the Browns DBs schemed up to forfeit defending countless passes.  We're all concerned about Woods at varying degrees; but to blame every single thing on him when guys need to communicate with each other and/or ask questions during the week of preparation on anything unclear.  

I think Clowney is okay vrs the run which means I'm not sold he's always giving it his all out there.  If you disagree that's fine - I'll bet others do as well.  Again, the only bad ass I see on the DL is Myles Garrett who should be freeing up IDL/guys with the attention he commands.  Not happening though. 

Since it's only week 3 without much of a pre-season, let's see what happens moving forward...

[Flugel]

9 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 The first line suggests that "keeping it all in front of them" was a sound defensive strategy in your opinion?

RE: the secondary vis a vis the Dfront.   One fix is done with better communication, better preparation and experience.       Little beyond an infusion of talent itself will fix the other.     So there are differences in terms of solutions that are being overlooked here.  

 

Exactly! 

If it's the next guy fans and sports media want to chase out of town (Woods) - they're not going to blame a veteran player for anything.  Do we really have fans thinking why should Delpit start to communicate pre-snap if Joe Woods isn't screaming through a megaphone "don't forget to communicate starting now?"  This stuff should be all squared away in the film room prep.  If guys aren't asking questions about certain scenarios they are anticipating - they're probably not the type of guys that are going to be accountable for their mistakes on game day. Finger pointing and/or "it's not my fault" is a symptom of this lack of professionalism.  Nick Chubb, on the other hand, stepped up and blamed himself for the loss to the Jets. The "players only" meeting was a great idea; and the Browns won just 4 days later.  

Woods was here when this team went 11-5 and won a playoff game.  Please feel free to check how much turnovers helped the Browns win that playoff game.  That's proof the Browns can win with him IF the players prepare, communicate and do their jobs like the PROFESSIONALS on that team did.  We've seen it.  I'm not saying Woods is perfect by any means; but let's try to hold these well paid players a little more accountable than refusing to blame them for anything.  

 

[Korsou Dawg]

Recruit for a better interior VS hold to account for multiple games of unacceptable blown coverages and generally underwhelming secondary play (i.e. fire Woods)...

Can't we just do both? 

[SdBacker80]

14 hours ago, Flugel said:

I can work with a lot of that especially that 1st line.

Did Baker draft himself at #1 overall?  No.  Did Cleveland draft 1st overall in 2017?  That draft KC drafted Patrick Mahomes at #10 overall while Houston drafted Watson at #12 overall.  Just think, if this franchise knew how to draft a QB - you wouldn't have been burdened with Baker right?  Before you inform me a lot of people had questions about both guys - are you supposed to draft best football in rear the view mirror?  Or, are you supposed to have all the right staff employed so you can draft and develop a guy with best football ahead (like Josh Allen)?

Your question about did the IDL give Delpit enough time to communicate.  If he prepared properly in the film room - communication could have began as early as the pre-snap read of the formation. Same with the corner on that side of the field for that matter.  You just want to funnel any/al blame to just the DC, not the players or the position coaches or the HC for teaching moments.  Again, we have a HC with more responsibility than just the offense.   You said you go straight to the top to assign blame but you're not doing that.  Parcels used to go up 1 side of Bill Belichick and down the other if there was something the Defense was doing that he wanted fixed immediately.  And why?  Because he was the Head Coach.  

Are you missing Bob Slowik's 20 yard cushions or something.  Let me tell you how much fun that was watching the Browns DBs schemed up to forfeit defending countless passes.  We're all concerned about Woods at varying degrees; but to blame every single thing on him when guys need to communicate with each other and/or ask questions during the week of preparation on anything unclear.  

I think Clowney is okay vrs the run which means I'm not sold he's always giving it his all out there.  If you disagree that's fine - I'll bet others do as well.  Again, the only bad ass I see on the DL is Myles Garrett who should be freeing up IDL/guys with the attention he commands.  Not happening though. 

Since it's only week 3 without much of a pre-season, let's see what happens moving forward...

“Did Baker draft himself #1 overall” - is this a defense of Baker like he didn’t ask for this?  

Let me drive this home one more time….the Panther game and the broken coverages should have been a blessing for the next week.  We won that game but had some critical bizarre broken coverages that you see at the HS level.  These are the best Teaching moments correcting mistakes and miscommunication after a victory.   Joe and Staff should have spent Sunday Night to Sunday Morning making sure the communication issues didn’t happen again.  Joe was secondary coach for the Niners he wouldn’t step in here and be pissed after that Panther game.  That is his responsibility and he was put on notice after the Panther game….Kevin’s too.  I’m going to confidently say if this uneven defensive play continues and our offense continues to play well- I’ll guarantee it will be on Woods lap and not Kevin’s.  

 I don’t have hours to pour over Clowneys recent play but I will say he was widely known around the league as a very good run defender and kind of a disappointment in regard to pass rushing.  The numbers and PFF scores and likely film support this assertion.  I don’t know if his play/effort was lackluster against the Panthers and half of the Jets game.  

Our defense is averaging 4.1 yards per carry that’s good for 11th in league.  Now I think we have some talent issues in our interior.   We don’t have the perfect roster and at this position it is evident.   And it is a surprise to me that we are getting attacked and beaten in our secondary.  I’m disappointed in that group - based on the signings and draft capital we have placed an emphasis on infusing this team with fast twitchy cover guys.  
 

2 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Recruit for a better interior VS hold to account for multiple games of unacceptable blown coverages and generally underwhelming secondary play (i.e. fire Woods)...

Can't we just do both? 

Yes we should.  It’s maddening because we have talent in the secondary and they can play better. 
 

did you expect more from this secondary?

[Korsou Dawg]

56 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

did you expect more from this secondary?

Affirmative!