The Good, the bad, and the Lucky vs Steelers.

[tiamat63]

6 hours ago, Flugel said:

Okay, you and SdBacker convinced me.  His progress is very impressive at RT.  As for the IDL?  Maybe we can move Myles and/or Clowney around here and there once they're healthy again.

 Both Myles and Clowney have seen looks at times on the interior in various subpackages.   Against CAR at least they did, because their IOL sucked something awful.   But just parking them IDL in any other situation takes a weak line and makes it worse.  Because our greatest strength, the edge, will now be cut in half while the return on the interior won't be proportionate to the ability we've lost by moving them.  

 It's a damned if you do type situation and about the greatest warning to any front office - you can't have one position group so damn good and the other so bad that the functionality of your defense (or offense) is so imbalanced.    The Chiefs have a great young QB and great skill position players, but we saw what happened against Tampa in the Superbowl when their Oline was depleted.   All those skills position accounted for nothing.    That's really no different here, just on the other side of the ball.

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

 Both Myles and Clowney have seen looks at times on the interior in various subpackages.   Against CAR at least they did, because their IOL sucked something awful.   But just parking them IDL in any other situation takes a weak line and makes it worse.  Because our greatest strength, the edge, will now be cut in half while the return on the interior won't be proportionate to the ability we've lost by moving them.  

 It's a damned if you do type situation and about the greatest warning to any front office - you can't have one position group so damn good and the other so bad that the functionality of your defense (or offense) is so imbalanced.    The Chiefs have a great young QB and great skill position players, but we saw what happened against Tampa in the Superbowl when their Oline was depleted.   All those skills position accounted for nothing.    That's really no different here, just on the other side of the ball.

I hear you but I’d take a SB visit 

[Flugel]

12 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 Both Myles and Clowney have seen looks at times on the interior in various subpackages.   Against CAR at least they did, because their IOL sucked something awful.   But just parking them IDL in any other situation takes a weak line and makes it worse.  Because our greatest strength, the edge, will now be cut in half while the return on the interior won't be proportionate to the ability we've lost by moving them.  

 It's a damned if you do type situation and about the greatest warning to any front office - you can't have one position group so damn good and the other so bad that the functionality of your defense (or offense) is so imbalanced.    The Chiefs have a great young QB and great skill position players, but we saw what happened against Tampa in the Superbowl when their Oline was depleted.   All those skills position accounted for nothing.    That's really no different here, just on the other side of the ball.

Totally agree, which was why I worded it "here and there."  Great stuff in the 2nd paragraph. The rest of my reply is just piggybacking on points you've made here and previously that are applicable.

Anything we do is going to have to be varied; because the reality is the FO neglected this group where weaknesses will be easy to find and target.  Consequently, this FO is getting exactly what they paid for or didn't for IDL.  Blue collar isn't football sexy (ie: NT Bob Golic); but man did he get the job done enabling the Defense to rank #1 against the run in 1986.  When you can shut down the run that well - it helps take out a lot of the guess work on the opponents' tendencies.  

We can try other things upfront like slants to strength or wide-side or just the opposite with our backers scraping in the opposite direction of the slant.  We can even attempt some X-stunt blitzes to generate some inside pressure.  One of your previous points about what 1 team was doing in dropping a Dlineman into a hook zone/adjacent gray area is another wrinkle that could work well IMO.  Is David Copperfield busy the rest of the year?

It seems strange that a FO that values paying their 2 OGs really good money for their roles inside; thinks just the opposite about DTs.  The last time Tampa won a SB, they had 1st round pick Vita Vea at 1 DT and Ndamukong Suh at another with William Gholston, and Jason Pierre-Paul.  They also had OLB Shaquille Barrett adding 19.5 sacks (pretty damn good considering he was Von Miller's back-up that didn't have a lot of playing time out in Denver before that). Tampa had enough front 7 talent to where they could vary their fronts where they could kick Vea inside to NT, pushing Suh out to DE with Gholston at the other DE moving Pierre-Paul OLB in a 2 point.  Personally, I think Pierre-Paul is more explosive out of a 3 point stance so I didn't think Suh at DE was their best option (although it was enough of a wrinkle for teams to prepare for).  

DTs are very valuable.  Chris Jones is usually a long day for opponents. Buffalo drafted Ed Oliver in round 1, Fletcher Cox has been a bad ass in Philly since he arrived; Now Philly added a freakin Continent (DT Jordan Davis) that somehow squeezed into the state of Georgia long enough to help them win a national championship.  These types of guys command the attention that allows their LBers to giddy-up and get after it.  In some cases, these guys can also suffocate the run by themselves.  

This may only be a coincidence; but the year the FO went after Sheldon Richardson - we won 11 regular season games and a playoff game.  Then we lost the next week to Chris Jones and the Chiefs.  

[tiamat63]

5 hours ago, Flugel said:

Totally agree, which was why I worded it "here and there."  Great stuff in the 2nd paragraph. The rest of my reply is just piggybacking on points you've made here and previously that are applicable.

Anything we do is going to have to be varied; because the reality is the FO neglected this group where weaknesses will be easy to find and target.  Consequently, this FO is getting exactly what they paid for or didn't for IDL.  Blue collar isn't football sexy (ie: NT Bob Golic); but man did he get the job done enabling the Defense to rank #1 against the run in 1986.  When you can shut down the run that well - it helps take out a lot of the guess work on the opponents' tendencies.  

We can try other things upfront like slants to strength or wide-side or just the opposite with our backers scraping in the opposite direction of the slant.  We can even attempt some X-stunt blitzes to generate some inside pressure.  One of your previous points about what 1 team was doing in dropping a Dlineman into a hook zone/adjacent gray area is another wrinkle that could work well IMO.  Is David Copperfield busy the rest of the year?

It seems strange that a FO that values paying their 2 OGs really good money for their roles inside; thinks just the opposite about DTs.  The last time Tampa won a SB, they had 1st round pick Vita Vea at 1 DT and Ndamukong Suh at another with William Gholston, and Jason Pierre-Paul.  They also had OLB Shaquille Barrett adding 19.5 sacks (pretty damn good considering he was Von Miller's back-up that didn't have a lot of playing time out in Denver before that). Tampa had enough front 7 talent to where they could vary their fronts where they could kick Vea inside to NT, pushing Suh out to DE with Gholston at the other DE moving Pierre-Paul OLB in a 2 point.  Personally, I think Pierre-Paul is more explosive out of a 3 point stance so I didn't think Suh at DE was their best option (although it was enough of a wrinkle for teams to prepare for).  

DTs are very valuable.  Chris Jones is usually a long day for opponents. Buffalo drafted Ed Oliver in round 1, Fletcher Cox has been a bad ass in Philly since he arrived; Now Philly added a freakin Continent (DT Jordan Davis) that somehow squeezed into the state of Georgia long enough to help them win a national championship.  These types of guys command the attention that allows their LBers to giddy-up and get after it.  In some cases, these guys can also suffocate the run by themselves.  

This may only be a coincidence; but the year the FO went after Sheldon Richardson - we won 11 regular season games and a playoff game.  Then we lost the next week to Chris Jones and the Chiefs.  

 

- You can slant your defensive line.  I've pointed out CFB D-coords who have found varying degree's of success.  The reason you don't see it more at the pro level is the lineman and the RB's are just too good.  

 

- This front office put a priority on interior pocket integrity.  Bito, Teller and Pocic.  The reason being that our future QB requires this offense placing that priority on pass pro right up the middle, the most difficult place to deal with pressure and the worst kind your QB can face. 

- IDL IS very valuable, when you find transcendent talent that makes the pick worth it.  Otherwise you'll be looking at rotating in, as coaches call it 'swarms' of bodies with specific skills.    Aaron Donald went high because of his ability to disrupt gaps and rush the passer.   Jordan Davis was drafted because of his flexibility as a big man and the ability to help the Eagles stay in their nickel and dime sets, even against 21 and 22 personnel.

- It is a bit of a coincidence, the Richardson, playoffs and Chiefs thing.    Chris Jones is still a bit one dimensional in his play.  That kid hates getting dirty in the running game, and the Chiefs would likely be without a superbowl ring if it wasn't for the emergence of Derrick Nnadi.  

- If there is one thing I can promise, if the future of this defense, and NFL defenses for the next 10 years, is to return to 2 high shells and builds off of those looks, that removed body from the box run fit will place additional emphasis on the state of your defensive line come draft time.  

(I forgot who the #99 kid was for LSU, but he jumped out last season when I was watching Ferrall.  I'm sure I'll be starting there in the next few weeks)

[Unsympathetic]

Nothing more fun than seeing Vea and the newly drafted Walker drop into zone and.. not be a vulnerability.  Walker of course is ridiculous enough at 280# to be able to shut down slot receivers.  Just like all the DT's at Cleveland..

The frustrating part is that all the FA DI who are capable of shutting down the run & be more than nonexistent against the pass.. were ignored by the FO.  Examples are Akiem Hicks, DJ Jones, Joseph-Day.  Instead we have a collection who are capable of neither rushing the passer nor stopping the run.  

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

Nothing more fun than seeing Vea and the newly drafted Walker drop into zone and.. not be a vulnerability.  Walker of course is ridiculous enough at 280# to be able to shut down slot receivers.  Just like all the DT's at Cleveland..

The frustrating part is that all the FA DI who are capable of shutting down the run & be more than nonexistent against the pass.. were ignored by the FO.  Examples are Akiem Hicks, DJ Jones, Joseph-Day.  Instead we have a collection who are capable of neither rushing the passer nor stopping the run.  

Exactly!  A lot of people don't realize this about Vita Vea; but he was a very good RB in high school.  I bring that up because he's pretty quick/fast for a guy his size.  I just looked at a you tube video of him running off tackle and outrunning some decent pursuit angles guys had on him.