JF leapfrogs Hoyer (accord. to source)

[TexasAg1969]

I know this will sound like a hanging offense to my fellow "Manzealots", but unless JF clearly shows he can move the 1's to multiple scores (barring another RB fumble screwup or sure TD WR drop), then the starting job should go to Hoyer until the season is a loss. He proved before the injury that he could win and Johnny has a lot of ground to cover before he is truely ready. I still think he is the long term talent, but I want him to learn the art of the slide as much as anyone here. He's so damn competitive he just does not know the meaning yet of live to fight another day.

 

That said, he has shown in the past he is capable of doing things differently. He truely developed into a better pocket passer after the Heisman year and he ran half as often. That was all by design on his part. He's a smart guy and he will learn quick to jump or throw out of bounds and to slide well before a hit can be delivered. It is my hope for him that he finds that fine balance between Johnny Football and Johnny Cleveland. He will need both to help the Browns be where they want ot be.

[Tour2ma]

Rewatched JM's series last nite and the Zealots aren't going to like this, but he ain't ready for the NFL.

 

He spent the nite looking for open receivers rather than making reads... and that makes throws late. I only saw one throw that appeared to be on time... the post route to Gabriel. As I said in another thread, with one exception it appeared he looked at receiver and was done, then bailed. While he did not stare down every receiver, he had a couple doozies... most notably the stop to the far sideline that sailed over the WR's head.

 

The arm is there. The wheels are undeniable. But... the... kid... ain't... ready.

 

That said... give him the start vs. WSH.

 

When i mentioned Manziel sacrificing his body for a yard i was talking about his mentality that every game matters to him. With a coaching staff on a short leash, they need someone who will sell out each game. Although Manziel did get injured, he never missed a game in college. Hoyer can easily toss a pick six aswell. You assume he is incapable of these same type of mistakes. JFF is loved in Cleveland. Maybe not on this forum but i believe many of you guys are not the majority. I have watched a number of youtube videos of his draft day, people of Cleveland love him. Reason why his jersey is #1 in the NFL. BTW, he wont stink it up against the Steelers. He will give the Browns a chance to win.

One... injury is a concern. NAd JM's indeniable competitive fire is the reason it is a concern. He got dinged in that little passion play you cite. He winched on the way back to the huddle the next two times he ran. Appeared to either be shoulder or neck.

Two... you and others, including JM, think missing the game is all that matters. Gruden said it to JM's face in his QB Camp: Missing practice matters at this level; Not being 100% matters. Is it coincidence that 2 Ag losses occurred when JM was dinged last year?

Three... I've no idea about how NE Ohio breaks down fan-wise and I do not care. What I do know is that NFL starters are not chosen by fans. If they were, then Teboe would start every Sunday.

 

 

I know this will sound like a hanging offense to my fellow "Manzealots", but unless JF clearly shows he can move the 1's to multiple scores (barring another RB fumble screwup or sure TD WR drop), then the starting job should go to Hoyer until the season is a loss. He proved before the injury that he could win and Johnny has a lot of ground to cover before he is truely ready. I still think he is the long term talent, but I want him to learn the art of the slide as much as anyone here. He's so damn competitive he just does not know the meaning yet of live to fight another day.

 

That said, he has shown in the past he is capable of doing things differently. He truely developed into a better pocket passer after the Heisman year and he ran half as often. That was all by design on his part. He's a smart guy and he will learn quick to jump or throw out of bounds and to slide well before a hit can be delivered. It is my hope for him that he finds that fine balance between Johnny Football and Johnny Cleveland. He will need both to help the Browns be where they want ot be.

I love objectivity...

[Kvoethe]

Manziel vs RG knee. That screams tv dollars. It will happen and they had probably decided it weeks ago

[miktoxic]

Manziel vs RG knee. That screams tv dollars. It will happen and they had probably decided it weeks ago

even if they both start what do they play, one quarter?

[jrb12711]

Rewatched JM's series last nite and the Zealots aren't going to like this, but he ain't ready for the NFL.

 

He spent the nite looking for open receivers rather than making reads... and that makes throws late. I only saw one throw that appeared to be on time... the post route to Gabriel. As I said in another thread, with one exception it appeared he looked at receiver and was done, then bailed. While he did not stare down every receiver, he had a couple doozies... most notably the stop to the far sideline that sailed over the WR's head.

 

The arm is there. The wheels are undeniable. But... the... kid... ain't... ready.

 

That said... give him the start vs. WSH.

 

 

You could have taken those words right out of my mouth. What I watched was a guy with talent, but it's still needs to grow in terms of the NFL skill set. As I've said all along, give Hoyer the first three games before the bye. He sucks and the Browns struggle, time to bring Manziel in. That way you just don't throw him to the wolves but don't waste another season either.

[miktoxic]

and if manziel sucks it WILL be another wasted season.

 

if that happens putting manziel in will look like a terrible mistake.

[The Gipper]

Will find out today in Pettines presser. May k is usually spot on with her reporting.

You are a very funny fellow. Ever try the standup clubs?

 

I do think Hoyer has done a fine job, he just doesnt have as dynamic of a skill set. Browns will need him in case Manziel gets hurt.

Hoyer and Manziel do have different skill sets....and sometimes it is the steady hand that still functions better than the dynamic hands.

And FYI, the history of the Browns lately is that they will need like 3-4 QBs when the starters get hurt. Just look at last year.

We may need JFF, Hoyer, and Connor Shaw before things are done.

[The Gipper]

 

There are plenty of reasons why Manziel should start on opening day.

 

First of all i think the pressure of having someone like Manziel on bench might be too much for him to handle.

Too much for who to handle? JFF? Or Hoyer. Hoyer could handle it I believe. He seems a cool customer

 

After every interception the question will be asked.

Every int. by every QB would be questioned. If JFF starts and begins handing the ball away.....then people will think he isn't ready. And maybe they would be right.

 

You either have the team behind you or you dont.

Agreed. And I think that either QB would have the team behind them.

 

Wouldnt be fair to Hoyer to put him on a short leash.

Agree again. Ergo, he should be on a long leash.

 

 

Hell, the kid has barely played in the NFL too.

But he has been involved in the NFL game much much longer. That experience does help some.

 

He is going to make mistakes and you have to give him a chance to grow into the position. I think if you roll with Hoyer you give him the whole season.

That may end up being the original plan......but the best laid plans aft gang aglay...as the poet said. If the original plan is to roll with Hoyer the whole season.....that plan could easily change if things go awry, then JFF would get his chance.

 

I dont think the NFL was like it was back in the day for rookie QBs. Many of them have immediately come in and been successful. The rules favor the offense and protecting the QB.

True.

 

I also think these coaches have to win now. Playing around with a safer option might not translate to wins.

So? You think it is better to go with the less safe option? That is illogical.

The owner has no problem chunking a coaching staff after a season.

I don't think that will happen again.

 

Manziel will sacrifice his body for a yard.

And that may be his downfall.

 

They will need that mentality to win in a tough division.

Wrecklessly getting injured is not the mentality that will win this division. (To JFF's credit, he did a nice job on that slide)

 

I say start Johnny. If he gets hurt (which is a real possibility) Hoyer will come in and save the day.

Or vice versa. It is not our choice to make.

[The Gipper]

 

Plenty of reasons to not start Manziel right out of the gate too. You mentioned it- Manziel showed a propensity to sacrifice his body for a yard- that's a quick trip to IR in the NFL.

 

The first three games are brutal. Steelers on the road for the opener? Sure. I don't want to see JF toss a few pick sixes right out of the gate and get the fanbase POed at him. You may find it hard to believe- but JFF does not have a monopoly on Cleveland loyalty- at least not yet. He'll get reamed- and justifiably so, if you toss him in against the Steelers, and he stinks up the place.

 

 

That would have been tremendous- because YOU certainly wouldn't be here. Ungrateful because we don't think Johnny is quite capable of this? At least not yet?

 

 

George Washington parting Lake Erie?

[hoorta]

 

You could have taken those words right out of my mouth. What I watched was a guy with talent, but it's still needs to grow in terms of the NFL skill set. As I've said all along, give Hoyer the first three games before the bye. He sucks and the Browns struggle, time to bring Manziel in. That way you just don't throw him to the wolves but don't waste another season either.

 

This is what the guys who are being objective and sensible about the situation have been saying for a long time. Tour and TXAg are saying it. And no, this isn't Hoyer Homerism out of me either.

 

Gives the Coaching staff enough tape to decide they want to go on with Hoyer, or bring in the rookie. If the Browns go 0-3 before the bye the season is pretty well shot anyway.

 

No one who isn't blind can't say Manziel doesn't have the athletic talent to succeed in the NFL anymore- he erased my doubts in that department in one quarter, but it takes more than athletic talent to be a winning quarterback in the NFL. Let the kid sit for a few games- at least- on the sidelines to see what real game speed in the NFL is.

[hoorta]

George Washington parting Lake Erie?

 

Nah- Gip, that's one of my favorite labels- though I don't like that style of beer. Great Lakes Brewing Holy Moses, comes out around Christmas every year. Moses Cleaveland parting Lake Erie. Would have been more fitting if it had been the Cuyahoga River.

 

http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/73/9353/

[gernthefish]

It makes no sense to me to start the season with JF. The schedule is tough and he is a rookie who can learn from a couple of games on the bench. I agree that Hoyer will have a short leash and would have to play lights-out to stay on the field. But he should have the first three games.

 

PS Hoyer will never excel in a 1.5 quarter game because his strength is game management. He excels over the course of a full game, making few mistakes and taking what the defense gives him. I'm as ready as the next person to see the JF era in Cleveland, but Hoyer deserves his chance, and I wouldn't doubt his ability to succeed. When he was on a roll last year, he was moving the team consistently down the field and was extremely effective and efficient.

 

Great post. I agree that it makes a lot of sense to start Hoyer, at least for the 1st 3 games. I get the feeling Pettine is leaning that way too. I just don't know if it's in the cards given the JF factor. SHOULD Manziel's popularity make any difference in who starts? Well...no, but let's face it, it's a reality.

[miktoxic]

listen, i don't care who starts But if we are going to live in a society where popularity contests decide who gets a job or not, i think it's really sad.

 

the only thing i hope (given this media train wreck surrounding JF) is that haslam let's pettine and farmer do their jobs. to think you fire a coaching/FO staff last year just to bring in guys that you would ask to fold to fan and media pressure would be lame as hell.

 

fuck these JF fagboy fans. they'll be nowhere in sight if JF fails like his predecessors.

[Frenchie]

Good points gernthefish and miktoxic. There are so many factors in realty that are outside the white lines and the grey matter (ie logical thought). Right now, the only thing we can do is sit back on Monday night and re-analyze the situation after the game. My instincts tell me that this controversy will escalate until a final decision is made after game three.

[Unsympathetic]

Nobody could part Lake Erie at this point.. those harmful algae blooms are bad times.

 

Let Pettine do his job. JF does have a better arm than Hoyer, but his arm isn't the only thing needed.

 

Remember: JF's arm isn't as good as Spergon Wynn's.

[LetsGetThiggyWithIt]

even if they both start what do they play, one quarter?

Manziel should play the first quarter, Shaw should play the 2nd and 3rd quarters, and Thigpen should play the 4th quarter. We already know what Hoyer can do. It will be interesting to see Shaw play and if he does good or just descent, Thigpen's days in Cleveland are mostly likely over.

[Kvoethe]

Browns' Whitner: Locker room is 'split about 50/50' on Hoyer vs. Manziel

Aug 11 2014, 9:53 AMDavid P. Woods

The most buzzworthy quarterback battle in the NFL this preseason has even divided the locker room where it's taking place.

 

“It’s been fierce,” Cleveland Browns safety Donte Whitner told Peter King of TheMMQB.com when asked to describe the ongoing competition between incumbent Brian Hoyer and highly touted rookie Johnny Manziel.

 

“Two guys fighting for their lives. It’s close. I’d say [the locker room] is split about 50/50. We know they both can play.”

 

A split locker room isn't exactly something NFL coaches strive to achieve, but for now there's no indication that things are getting hostile (or even awkward) behind closed doors in Cleveland.

 

It's not surprising that the more experienced Hoyer has supporters. He's a local boy who gave the team something it hadn't had in years in his three starts last season: hope. Before tearing his ACL during Week 5, Hoyer looked like he might be a franchise quarterback. Heck, left tackle Joe Thomas even compared him to Tom Brady last month.

 

But Manziel brings a lot to the table that Hoyer doesn't, including a national following and a reputation as one of the game's most thrilling talents.

 

The sentiment that Manziel deserves to start is undeniably growing inside the Browns' locker room as it is among the public, and it could reach a fever pitch if Manziel turns in a strong performance in the Brown's second preseason game.

 

As it happens, that game will be televised nationally on "Monday Night Football."

 

Manziel Mania is only just beginning.

[Kvoethe]

Browns' Hoyer: 'This is my team until someone else tells me otherwise'

Aug 11 2014, 1:46 PMDavid P. Woods

Cleveland Browns quarterback Brian Hoyer responded to rumors suggesting he's fallen behind rookie Johnny Manziel in the competition to earn the Browns' starting job by saying he believes the job remains his.

 

"To me, this is my team until someone else tells me otherwise," Hoyer said after practice Monday, per the NFL Network's Ian Rapoport.

 

Hoyer added that he's only focused on his own play and not worried about Manziel, or the hype surrounding him.

 

We don't know if Hoyer has been given any indication that the team is "his" beyond the fact that he's been getting first-team reps at training camp. Hoyer is the only remaining quarterback on the roster who started games for the Browns last season, but he did so under a different coaching staff.

 

In a widely shared column on TheMMQB.com on Monday, Hoyer's teammate Donte Whitner said the team's locker room is split down the middle with respect to which quarterback it supports.

[Tour2ma]

Moses Cleaveland parting Lake Erie.

Cecil B. DeHoorta?

 

I get the feeling Pettine is leaning (Hoyer's) way too.

Welcome, and I agree, but I think Pettine may be more than leaning Hoyer's way. Question rises though that if I happen to be right (it could happen), why all the "it's close" and "two, starter-caliber QBs" talk?

 

There are two thoughts that've been germinating in my bean since this AM...

- The first is that Pettine and Shanahan are not leaning in the same direction.

- The second is that after tearing/ slapping JM down for his off-field stuff early on, Pettine and Co. are now building up the kid's ego.

 

Stay tuned...

[Kvoethe]

Its the Bachelor and we are waiting with bated breath to see who Pettine gives the rose to.

[Tour2ma]

Great... a split locker room...

 

Browns' Whitner: Locker room is 'split about 50/50' on Hoyer vs. Manziel

Aug 11 2014, 9:53 AMDavid P. Woods

 

But Manziel brings a lot to the table that Hoyer doesn't, including a national following and a reputation as one of the game's most thrilling talents.

OMFG...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i5i0jxIWYw

 

Had there been a 5-second, McEnroe clip I'd have posted that....

[DieHardBrownsFan]

3rd Pre-season is where they play the starters mostly. JFF going to win I believe. Wasn't impressed with Hoyer, but if he wins so be it.

[Kvoethe]

Why do the Browns have to be so Dysfunctional? Would any other team have this much drama coming out of their locker room/ front office. Pettine better get his players under control because they talk to much. Rookie coach mistake. You wouldnt have any of this out of a Belicheck team. I hate him but he runs a team like you should.

[The Gipper]

Was rewatching the game and right from the start i noticed things. Hoyers first drive on the check down he threw, Hawkins is wide open in the middle.

 

http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/everlastingdesigns/Screenshot2014-08-11at44256PM_zps32ccbab9.png

http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/everlastingdesigns/Screenshot2014-08-11at44259PM_zps0d49ee17.png

 

 

Second play where Hoyer bails out of the back of the pocket and threw the ball away. He was doing exactly what coach Pettine said QBs shouldnt do. He was watching the pass rush instead of feeling it. The pocket was actually very good but he oddly bailed out.

 

http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/everlastingdesigns/Screenshot2014-08-11at45001PM_zps8d40f98e.png

http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/everlastingdesigns/Screenshot2014-08-11at45047PM_zpse4f9bb47.png

You sound like an insurance company defense attorney. You will nitpick at anything that seems to give you favor.

"Your client has a 16 day gap in her treatment"

"Yea, that is because it was Christmas time and the Doctor's office was closed over the holiday and she couldn't get in to see him on his schedule until after that time"

"Well, we think its possible that she suffered that herniated disk doing something else over those holidays and do not believe you can prove that the damage was caused by the accident".

"Well, lets see, my client didn't have a herniated disk before your client ran into her with his pickup truck, but she did have one after that.....so what do you think caused it.....being slammed by a 4000 pound vehicle, or putting up tinsel"?

[Hoppy]

Nobody could part Lake Erie at this point.. those harmful algae blooms are bad times.

 

Let Pettine do his job. JF does have a better arm than Hoyer, but his arm isn't the only thing needed.

 

Remember: JF's arm isn't as good as Spergon Wynn's.

Spergon Wynn? Seriously?

 

Wynn passed for less than 600 yards in his career.(QB rating 39.5, not a typo) There is a heck of a lot more to having a good arm than being able to throw the ball 100mph to nobody at all.

[choco]

 

Jonny's second pass attempt. 4 guys open, 2 covered by 1 defender that he is looking at, and he tucks and runs.

 

Nevermind the 1 yard gain he took by not throwing to Agnew who could have easily got 5-10 yards.

 

Sooooooooooo.......

[choco]

I actually don't mind this pic....NFL open is different the college open, and rather risk the ball he just pulled it down and took 3 yards.

 

I have no problem with him doing that, tbh. But, if you can stop the hyperbole about our thoughts on hoyer, we could have a good discussion on this.

 

You yourself like to remind us that hoyer is relatively inexperienced for a 6 year vet, coming off a major injury in his first live action should lend itself to mistakes being made. At least in the first case, while he missed Hawkins, he hit gray for 25 or so yards. Either guy would have been a good play, but he took the easy throw. Nothing wrong with that.

[choco]

Then you throw it to the guy in the flats. A guy bearing down him him is irrelevant as that reality in this game. If that a problem, perhaps baseball?

[choco]

So...in other words.....missing Hawkins wasn't really a mistake ala Johnny's run?

[WalterWhite]

So...in other words.....missing Hawkins wasn't really a mistake ala Johnny's run?

 

You're obsessed with him. Just stop.

 

He'll get his time with the 1's soon and your pacemaker is going to run rampant.