Where to start.....

[Tour2ma]

If I take any solace from this regime's approach, it is that despite 14 picks they did not try to fix everything in one off-season. Clearly this draft was dedicated to fixing the WR position.

 

That is different.

 

Maybe next year it's LBs...

 

 

As for "foundation"... TBD. Anything more optimistic is rose-colored thinking... not as rose-colored as those that thought Dwayne Bowe was the answer to our WR size deficit (and I can find you, if I need to), but still rose-colored.

 

And last I checked the last thing done before a foundation pour was leveling with sand... ... packed and framed to prevent shifting, but sand.

[Flugel]

If I take any solace from this regime's approach, it is that despite 14 picks they did not try to fix everything in one off-season. Clearly this draft was dedicated to fixing the WR position.

 

That is different.

 

Maybe next year it's LBs...

 

 

As for "foundation"... TBD. Anything more optimistic is rose-colored thinking... not as rose-colored as those that thought Dwayne Bowe was the answer to our WR size deficit (and I can find you, if I need to), but still rose-colored.

 

And last I checked the last thing done before a foundation pour was leveling with sand... ... packed and framed to prevent shifting, but sand.

 

Well said.

[Zombo]

 

Oh really?

 

I don't recollect me "talking shit" much, and I can talk shit cause I could punk you all day long, lol

Unlike that little patronizing faggot, I pretty much stay out of threads dealing with the Browns, respecting the obvious fact that this is your board.

 

I rarely talk shit, I talk truth and you don't like hearing it. That's why I get the name change.

Isn't that right Zombo? Be honest now.

 

I've lived most my life near Cleveland, and most everyone I know or have worked with is a browns fan, and we get along just fine.

So "Why cant we just get along" here? lol

Shut up, asshole.

 

Z

[calfoxwc]

 

No need Calsies. Jerry Sherk got held all the time and made the Pro Bowl in spite of it.

 

If you're the real thing there's no such thing as "yeah but I got held." Wattshisname gets held almost every play and he sees way more double teams than Kruger commands.

 

When the OT was holding the back of Kruger's jersey behind the shoulder pads, did you notice Kruger was standing straight up with his base/legs already forfeited while the OT maintained a lower pad height? There's your game over with Kruger. If he doesn't know this by now, we don't need to keep the record skipping with Wiley Coyote on the edge.

hahasies - I figured you might notice more than I did. But Jerry Sherk and Wattsamattay University graduate

J.J. "rhino" Wattsies played for good defenses. Not all players are the same.

 

Speaking of Jerry Sherk, one of my favorite Browns players of all time...this is a great article about Sherk and Dieken, etc,

and the violence of the game.....

 

http://www.cleveland.com/livingston/index.ssf/2013/10/former_cleveland_browns_doug_d.html

 

Kruger had a great year in 2014. Back in the day, he was a lb with the ratbirds, bulked up, and played poorly in

their 3-4. To compare him to Jerry Sherk back in the day, and J.J. Wattsamatta is pretty funny.

 

He may have lost a step...or not. We'll find out this season. But he had his armed locked up badly, with no

referee calling it. You go back and watch, dangit. Anyways, Kruger says they are making mistakes, but

they just need to work those out. It's refreshing to hear so many Browns players think so highly of

their coaches. That right there is a step in a winning direction.

 

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Kruger-postgame-Interview-Browns-vs-Buccaneers/c5375b53-52e4-41ad-a06f-bbe3f87fc5ad

[calfoxwc]

btw, J.J. Watt - herniated disc - might not be ready for the regular season...

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000676105/article/jj-watt-undergoes-surgery-to-repair-herniated-disc

[gumby73]

well Cal....we were watching different games then....

 

The game I watched had Tampa Bay scoring on their first 5 drives and racking up 250 yds in the first half(against our ones)....thats right.....250 yards.....NOTHING was "shut down".....cept our D.....

 

THEN.....the 2nd and 3rd stringers came in for the second half and played better......but that first team?.....whoa, they were bad...

 

New linebackers?.....what new linebackers?......Thomas?.....cause he aint doing too much so far.....Orchard(a guy I have big hopes for) has been invisible over 3 games (2 tackles and an assist).....Kruger?...hahahaha....(zero tackles and 4 assist)......and Kirksey, who IS playing well.....the one and only....

 

And, based upon the Mingo trade, the FO is holding hope for Schobert, who has shown very little and appears to be easily neutralized......4 tackles in his first game, then only 2 tackles in 2 weeks.......

 

So.....not seeing ANY good linebacker play either.....less Kirksey(and Alexander).....

Tank Carder maybe in his best TCamp Mud, with Kirksey. Tank played well at GB. We will need all the surprises than Cracker Jacks on D. Scooby & Alexander may decide next game, Who Sticks? Orch missed big on a score at TB..

[Flugel]

Does anybody realize that our first 6 picks from last year are starting this year?

 

I know the team sucks....so some wouldnt be elsewhere(Erving? Cooper?)....but we ALL still have high hopes and good expectations for Cooper. Orchard, Campbell, Shelton & Duke....right?

 

And Crow, Bitonio and Kirksey are developing into some pretty damn good players....right?.....

 

So....thats a lot of starters for just 2 "Browns" drafts.....

 

Mud,one of the worst things about getting into my 50s is I wear old man glasses when I gots to read; and I just don't have the short term memory when I gots to remember things as recently as the 2014 and 2015 drafts. The good news is your buddy Flugel knows he gots to Google so here's our 2014 and 2015 drafts:

 

Picks from 2015 NFL Draft

(* = Junior; ** = Sophomore; *** = Freshman)

1 12 Danny Shelton DT Washington 6' 2" 340 1 19 Cameron Erving OT Florida State 6' 5" 315 2 51 Nate Orchard DE Utah 6' 3" 250 3 77 Duke Johnson* RB Miami 5' 9" 205 3 96 Xavier Cooper* DT Washington State 6' 4" 300 4 115 Ibraheim Campbell S Northwestern 5' 10" 210 4 123 Vince Mayle WR Washington State 6' 2" 220 6 189 Charles Gaines* CB Louisville 5' 10" 180 6 195 Malcolm Johnson TE Mississippi State 6' 2" 231 6 198 Randall Telfer TE USC 6' 4" 250 7 219 Hayes Pullard OLB USC 6' 0" 235 7 241 Ifo Ekpre-Olomu CB Oregon 5' 9" 195

 

 

Picks from 2014 NFL Draft (* = Junior; ** = Sophomore; *** = Freshman)1 8 Justin Gilbert CB Oklahoma State 6' 0" 202 1 22 Johnny Manziel** QB Texas A&M 6' 0" 207 2 35 Joel Bitonio OT Nevada 6' 4" 315 3 71 Christian Kirksey ILB Iowa 6' 2" 233 3 94 Terrance West* RB Towson 5' 9" 225 4 127 Pierre Desir CB Lindenwood University 6' 1" 191

 

If Shelton and Erving can consistently be average in 2016 - it's quite an improvement from both first rounders. It sounds like a lot of us were excited about Orchard pre and post draft and when he finally got enough reps to where we could evaluate his performance - we were not disappointed with how he closed the 2015 season.

 

Duke Johnson was very exciting and we haven't seen a tremendous amount of him in this pre-season that everyone can't wait to make conclusions from.

 

Before I get to the rest here's something to keep in mind. When we used to be good in the 80s we'd start quality guys like Cody Riesen from round 7, Doug Dieken was in round 6 in the 70s still starting well into the 80s, Mike Baab was from round 4, Paul Farren who started at 4 different positions in round 12, Brian Brennan in round 4, Reggie Langhorne in round 7, Felix Wright undrafted, Earnest Byner in round 10, Brian Sipe in round 13 (the only MVP we've had at QB in the last 40-50 years), Thane Gash round 7, Herman Fontenot undrafted. Even when we went to the playoffs in the 90s we had undrafted LT Tony (T-Bone) Jones starting and undrafted RT Orlando Brown starting games during the stretch our 11 win team ran through fronts like Philly and Dallas.

 

Anyway, these are the 2015 guys Farmer looked to from round 3 to the end of the 2015 draft: Cooper, Campbell, Mayle (gone), Gaines, Malc Johnson, Telfer, Pullard (gone), Ekpre-Olomu (gone). Seems like a lot of wishful thinking and bare cupboards beneficiaries if we're being honest. Cooper flashes once in a while but I thought he'd be better. Maybe getting more reps prods that along some. We'll see.

 

In 2014, what competent GM with Khalil Mack on his door step - doesn't find out about the most recent work ethic of Justin Gilbert? Farmer didn't know what either guy projected so here we are wondering why we're stuck on pause with Wiley Coyote Kruger on 1 edge of our 34 always losing contain while never tackling anyone or sacking QBs. He can even drop off into coverage without whining about what he signed up for. If I'm the owner of this franchise, I gotta ask "you mean to tell me you didn't have the first clue of what Mack is capable of?"

 

Then, we get to the Johnny Manziel pick from our front office. As fans, we can mess this projection up. As a well paid NFL GM, you have to know there's red flags all the rest of the NFL is seeing but you and at least question why. The irony of a gotta have LBer like Mack and a QB that needs to be researched thoroughly for character/red flags actually showed up in the movie Draft Day about how the Cleveland Browns need to change fortunes at the draft. It was like Heaven above giving Ray Farmer the signs that divine intervention finally wants to help this franchise (providing this front office was awake and doing what they were supposed to be doing). The ego of Ray Farmer said "I got your signs right here so tell St Peter to salt my Peter."

 

Love Bitonio in spite of his soph slump d/t a former QB coach suddenly in charge of implementing blocking schemes intertwining ZBS with the blocking schemes Oakland used despite being advised the ZBS doesn't work well if it's part timed. I like Kirksey a lot too. However, the last coaching staff gave up on Terrence West and Pierre Desir feeling like they were justified in doing so.1 is gone while the other is lucky we have bare cupboards IMO. Crow was a great find in the land of the undrafted as was K'Wuan Williams (despite his lack of durability). Taylor Gabriel looks like a hard working kid that's hard to root against but 1 TD in 2 regular seasons tells me we should choose between him and our other midget (Hawkins) for the little men without TDs role in our WR Corps/offense. After that bubble screen in St Louis last year - he looked like he had Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome the rest of the season hearing footsteps and dropping passes way more frequently. We haven't really used him much in our return game and he offers us no ability to cover punts or kickoffs. He's right where you'd expect him to be hoping the worst WR Corps from 2015 still has room before it's CFL time on wider fields.

 

Every time I see opponents liking their chops to bullseye Gilbert and enjoy Kruger - I think of the Khalil Mack that Ray Farmer wasn't thinking of at all. The guy was on the door step of a team that has sucked forever at rushing the passer and Farmer gave that a Kung Fu kick to the very thankful Oakland Raiders. That's an epic screw up. Farmer doesn't just suck - he swallows!

[hoorta]

I have been a long time football fan having started out watching the Browns on the old black and white television with my dad back in the 60's. After coming to the Browns forum I realized there are some people who post here who really know the game and the x' and o's, the drafts, the front office and intricate details. So I won't argue any points on details but just generally speaking aren't we being way too pessimistic about the new restart? Three games into the pre season seems awful early to throw in the towel. You need to give it some time. I know we have had lots of time to improve the club since 99 and we haven't come close to getting the job done but you cannot lay all that on the new people who are just now trying to rebuild the club.

 

OBF- I'm not throwing in the towel- but me and Mud are calling like we see it. Right now, that Browns are a total disaster, and they're going to need to improve drastically if they want to have some hope of winning a game. With the starters in- we plain got killed. If Griffin is going to be the savior, well- the blocking has to improve 100% or he's not going to last more than a couple of games before he heads to permanent IR with another blown out knee.

 

 

And, much as Im not a fan of our new FO choices or their first draft, I do want them to succeed....and will wait(cause I have no other choice) to see how it pans out.....and like I did with Pettine and Farmer, I will pray they stay for a while, cause Im done with resets...

 

So....I will cheer and pray.....I will wait to see what Chachi and his boys do.....BUT, dammit, Im gonna call it like I see it and let Chachi know when I dont like the choices.....and, for me, it doesnt take 5 games, or a season or a year to assess what is happening......its a fluid thing and, no matter if it's preseason or not, shitty play and shitty players stand out.....

 

There are 32 teams playing preseason football.....32 teams assessing 2nd and 3rd team players.....32 teams not game planning......32 teams using vanilla schemes.....32 teams not showing their best cards......and ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, so far we are 32nd on Defense and 3ist on offense......THAT is a FACT jack...(Jack?.....another guy we shoulda drafted )

 

So Z- If you want to buy into the latest regime change, fine. All my optimism got drained out around two back. Young team with room to grow? Maybe. A team that currently looks as inept as the Lions team that went 0-16? Yep.

 

So give me some reason to believe that Sashi and DePodesta actually know what they're doing before I get on the Sunshine train.

[miktoxic]

who didn't bust on the JF fans when they first got here? i spent plenty of time typing pages of hate their way out of some stoopid rhyme or reason. really did kinda hope that would have worked out even though i had/have no like for the kid except as a human being. meanwhile these guys are aces. except for one fan who is long been forgotten who i won't mention his name....good things came out of the aggie fanbase and would love to hang with anyone of them.

 

nobody here wants to be 'right' when shit doesn't work with these players and coaches. think it's easy being the grump who lives in the alley with big furry mitts always finding something to bitch about? just seen it too many times and i'll call it out whether it be right or wrong.

 

saw holmgren as a franchise killer when he came in and IMHO i see hue standing in the shadows behind that fuckin fat fuck. nothing so far to prove me right or wrong. hue seems like a nice guy. just don't get all the hooplah and the band marchin down the street in his honor already. mediocre HC in OAK. coached QBs, not entire teams previous to that. all afc north guys? palmer. nothing. dalton. nothing. flacco. nothing.

 

why do we have to go after a guy to be coach with no freakin championship rings? as axe has said. hire polian. or hire mike wolf. proven. spend the money and get gruden or parcells or cowher out of retirement and on the sidelines HERE.

[miktoxic]

and btw, for all the QB whispering this guy has supposed to have done, why can't he whisper: "don't throw a pick 6"?

 

guess he missed that one or he's not that good cuz each and every one of these guys he's 'whispered' to is the ultimate lose the game in the 4th with a killer interception.

[TexasAg1969]

If I take any solace from this regime's approach, it is that despite 14 picks they did not try to fix everything in one off-season. Clearly this draft was dedicated to fixing the WR position.

 

I am glad they decided (finally after Farmer's ridiculous stance) to address WR as well, but they went a bit overboard with at least a couple they could have picked up either much later or as UFAs. I suspect a number of them will now be cut.

[Unsympathetic]

Browns cut Kruger!

Browns cut Kruger!

 

Doesn't quite have the ring of "Down goes Frazier," but it's still Monday morning.

[Zombo]

 

OBF- I'm not throwing in the towel- but me and Mud are calling like we see it. Right now, that Browns are a total disaster, and they're going to need to improve drastically if they want to have some hope of winning a game. With the starters in- we plain got killed. If Griffin is going to be the savior, well- the blocking has to improve 100% or he's not going to last more than a couple of games before he heads to permanent IR with another blown out knee.

 

 

 

So Z- If you want to buy into the latest regime change, fine. All my optimism got drained out around two back. Young team with room to grow? Maybe. A team that currently looks as inept as the Lions team that went 0-16? Yep.

 

So give me some reason to believe that Sashi and DePodesta actually know what they're doing before I get on the Sunshine train.

 

They hired the top coach on the market and he's busy clearing out the dead timber so th enew trees can grow, so there's that.

 

Zombo

[jrb12711]

A little late to the game but good stuff as always there Mr. Mud. Honestly, the thing I think some people don't want to accept that I did months ago is this will be a LOOONG season of browns football. For once, I actually appreciated the brass calling it for what it is. They've basically said since the draft that this year was all about young guys taking lumps and hopefully molding into a cohesive unit. We dropped guys like Whitner and Kruger (which I know Mud and I can jive on) who on a great team can contribute (maybe) but on a true rebuilding team do nothing but take reps away from potential long-term starters. The Browns will be a position by week 6-7 I imagine where 75% of the starters will be guys with less than 3 years NFL experience. But you know what? That's okay. This the first time I've felt the Browns are doing this right and the way it has to be done. Stop filling in holes with decent but not great vets for the sake of winning a game or two more and being 5-11 instead of 3-13. Get the guys who you think are the future the reps early and often and let the bumps occur now instead of two years later when the investment hasn't paid off.

 

I get it for you older folks, I really do. I think it is pretty well known here that I'm a younger gentlemen in his mid (soon to be late) 20's so the misery isn't as set-in as you guys. But as noted, this is definitely going to be an "enjoy the ride" type of season. Hopefully these guys can show towards the back-end of the season that the team has a real future and not one of "I can't wait to see this same crap next season". Honestly, that's all we can do right? At least this rebuild is being done with 10,000 pounds of TNT as opposed to a gallon of gas.

 

P.S.-Will never agree with you Pettine Mud but we've had that convo once or twice.

[hoorta]

 

I get it for you older folks, I really do. I think it is pretty well known here that I'm a younger gentlemen in his mid (soon to be late) 20's so the misery isn't as set-in as you guys. But as noted, this is definitely going to be an "enjoy the ride" type of season. Hopefully these guys can show towards the back-end of the season that the team has a real future and not one of "I can't wait to see this same crap next season". Honestly, that's all we can do right? At least this rebuild is being done with 10,000 pounds of TNT as opposed to a gallon of gas.

 

Yup- there's guys like me and The Gipper who are running out of "wait till next year" fast. That doesn't mean I don't at least want to see a team that looks like they know what they're doing- and at least so far in this preseason- it doesn't.

[Flugel]

A little late to the game but good stuff as always there Mr. Mud. Honestly, the thing I think some people don't want to accept that I did months ago is this will be a LOOONG season of browns football. For once, I actually appreciated the brass calling it for what it is. They've basically said since the draft that this year was all about young guys taking lumps and hopefully molding into a cohesive unit. We dropped guys like Whitner and Kruger (which I know Mud and I can jive on) who on a great team can contribute (maybe) but on a true rebuilding team do nothing but take reps away from potential long-term starters. The Browns will be a position by week 6-7 I imagine where 75% of the starters will be guys with less than 3 years NFL experience. But you know what? That's okay. This the first time I've felt the Browns are doing this right and the way it has to be done. Stop filling in holes with decent but not great vets for the sake of winning a game or two more and being 5-11 instead of 3-13. Get the guys who you think are the future the reps early and often and let the bumps occur now instead of two years later when the investment hasn't paid off.

 

I get it for you older folks, I really do. I think it is pretty well known here that I'm a younger gentlemen in his mid (soon to be late) 20's so the misery isn't as set-in as you guys. But as noted, this is definitely going to be an "enjoy the ride" type of season. Hopefully these guys can show towards the back-end of the season that the team has a real future and not one of "I can't wait to see this same crap next season". Honestly, that's all we can do right? At least this rebuild is being done with 10,000 pounds of TNT as opposed to a gallon of gas.

 

P.S.-Will never agree with you Pettine Mud but we've had that convo once or twice.

 

It goes fast my man. The year of "The Fumble" - I was a 3rd year Freshman in college. Yeah, I took a couple classes between happy hours.

[jrb12711]

 

It goes fast my man. The year of "The Fumble" - I was a 3rd year Freshman in college. Yeah, I took a couple classes between happy hours.

 

It's crazy to think before this year my dad, 57 years young, was alive for one Cleveland title and really didn't remember anyway at around 5 years old. The difference though for me is that I've had exactly two years (playoff year and 2007) to be excited about Browns football in my entire life. That might be just as sad really.

[Mudfly]

A little late to the game but good stuff as always there Mr. Mud. Honestly, the thing I think some people don't want to accept that I did months ago is this will be a LOOONG season of browns football. For once, I actually appreciated the brass calling it for what it is. They've basically said since the draft that this year was all about young guys taking lumps and hopefully molding into a cohesive unit. We dropped guys like Whitner and Kruger (which I know Mud and I can jive on) who on a great team can contribute (maybe) but on a true rebuilding team do nothing but take reps away from potential long-term starters. The Browns will be a position by week 6-7 I imagine where 75% of the starters will be guys with less than 3 years NFL experience. But you know what? That's okay. This the first time I've felt the Browns are doing this right and the way it has to be done. Stop filling in holes with decent but not great vets for the sake of winning a game or two more and being 5-11 instead of 3-13. Get the guys who you think are the future the reps early and often and let the bumps occur now instead of two years later when the investment hasn't paid off.

 

I get it for you older folks, I really do. I think it is pretty well known here that I'm a younger gentlemen in his mid (soon to be late) 20's so the misery isn't as set-in as you guys. But as noted, this is definitely going to be an "enjoy the ride" type of season. Hopefully these guys can show towards the back-end of the season that the team has a real future and not one of "I can't wait to see this same crap next season". Honestly, that's all we can do right? At least this rebuild is being done with 10,000 pounds of TNT as opposed to a gallon of gas.

 

P.S.-Will never agree with you Pettine Mud but we've had that convo once or twice.

I appreciate what your saying...I honestly do.....but you are assuming these young guys are gonna all be good and there is ZERO reason to believe that....MOST of them are mid to late picks, with a sprinkling of UDFA's and other teams cuts....there are only a FEW that even remotely show promise to be anything better than average(if that)....one, maybe two, who show all star potential...

 

So.....just because they are young, doesn't mean a damn thing......a lot of bad teams are full of young, middling and below average players.....

 

Honestly....this is gonna be a 5 year deal and I aint gonna participate much in it, cause Im tired of it.....at least Ill have my fall weekends back, for the first time in 40 years.....

[jrb12711]

I appreciate what your saying...I honestly do.....but you are assuming these young guys are gonna all be good and there is ZERO reason to believe that....MOST of them are mid to late picks, with a sprinkling of UDFA's and other teams cuts....there are only a FEW that even remotely show promise to be anything better than average(if that)....one, maybe two, who show all star potential...

 

So.....just because they are young, doesn't mean a damn thing......a lot of bad teams are full of young, middling and below average players.....

 

Honestly....this is gonna be a 5 year deal and I aint gonna participate much in it, cause Im tired of it.....at least Ill have my fall weekends back, for the first time in 40 years.....

 

I mean you're not wrong either, it's just what the Browns are doing and HAS worked for other teams like the Panthers, Sehawks etc. Literally the number one thing that turns a an above average team to a super-bowl contender is getting value FA's and nailing late round picks. Go down the list of super bowl winners and look at guys like Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, Ray Lewis, etc etc.

 

The BIG problem is we've had awful people picking players. All I can do is what I've done with all the other FO's-give their guys a chance.

[Mudfly]

 

I mean you're not wrong either, it's just what the Browns are doing and HAS worked for other teams like the Panthers, Sehawks etc. Literally the number one thing that turns a an above average team to a super-bowl contender is getting value FA's and nailing late round picks. Go down the list of super bowl winners and look at guys like Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, Ray Lewis, etc etc.

 

The BIG problem is we've had awful people picking players. All I can do is what I've done with all the other FO's-give their guys a chance.

I get that....and know that late picks and UDFA's fill gaps and some end up being big time contributors.....but, I assure you, those teams did not cut all their top players and insert a bunch of UDFA's in the hopes they would gel and grow into great teams....just didnt happen that way....

 

The ONLY team that has done anything remotely close were the Colts....and they got LUCK.....and havent won shit since.....and, they were a 10 win team in 2011, when they tanked(and didnt get rid of ALL their players either)...and jumped right back to 11 wins the next year....soooo, how long before this team sees 11 wins???....

[mjp28]

And Im tired of hearing how great things will be, when it's so painfully obvious they are not.....

 

The foundation of ANY team is in the trenches....O line and D line secure things to let skill players do their thing...

 

Our O line and D line are not a good foundation....cant stop the run and cant protect the QB....

 

So....the comments that we've built a strong foundation are what piss me off most......

After looking over all the posts here and on other threads it really starts here.

 

A great pass rush can make your DBs look good.

A mediocre QB can lead a great team into the playoffs.

A great OL besides saving your QB's life can make ok RBs look better than they really are.

On it goes.

 

I'm waiting after many failed attempts to see if the BROWNS can get some franchise DEs and some good middle DL players to see if they can actually win the field position and time of possession battle as step 1.

 

I've been watching the NFL since the Jim Brown days and am afraid it might take some amazing draft classes including FAs to get headed in the right direction. GO BROWNS, we still love ya'....just like an old marriage or maybe car? LOL.

[stillmotion]

We didn't try to make any decent free agent signings, let our Oline walk. Let out Dline go with no one to replace but youngins..... We're in complete rebuild. I just hope we don't get rid of haden and gordon next to save jimmy a few more bucks.

[Flugel]

We didn't try to make any decent free agent signings, let our Oline walk. Let out Dline go with no one to replace but youngins..... We're in complete rebuild. I just hope we don't get rid of haden and gordon next to save jimmy a few more bucks.

 

Like you said about the complete rebuild, what gotta-have free agents wanted any part of the 3-13 Cleveland Browns starting another massive cupboard cleaning session?

 

Mack was leaving either way. The loss of Schwartz will sting. However, we only won 3 games with both Mack and Schwartz here last year.

[jrb12711]

I get that....and know that late picks and UDFA's fill gaps and some end up being big time contributors.....but, I assure you, those teams did not cut all their top players and insert a bunch of UDFA's in the hopes they would gel and grow into great teams....just didnt happen that way....

 

The ONLY team that has done anything remotely close were the Colts....and they got LUCK.....and havent won shit since.....and, they were a 10 win team in 2011, when they tanked(and didnt get rid of ALL their players either)...and jumped right back to 11 wins the next year....soooo, how long before this team sees 11 wins???....

 

I mean, I can't sit there and recall what specific teams who are good now did to cut players or not. But talking about FA, the only guy that might have looked like a mistake to lose was Schwartz. Mack didn't want to be here (clearly), Gipson was a tweener at best, and who else really?

 

What cut has been "dear God they let HIM go!". I'll not holding my breath here man. This team was absolutely devoid of talent sans 4-5 players. Cutting the fat of below-average players to rebuild is fine with me.

 

Also, are you saying you wouldn't want 11 wins and that means they "haven't won shit". Jesus christ if the browns won 10 games I might die from excitement.

[flyingfooldoug]

1. Get a good QB

2. Win football games

[mjp28]

1. Get a good QB

2. Win football games

If you suddenly got Otto Graham or Joe Montana back in their prime they'd have a hard time with this bunch to go 8-8, a good start maybe to attract good FAs but not the total fix.

 

The first ~5+ or so years back from the dead the BROWNS had opportunities to start building a playoff caliber team starting with the DL but it didn't happen (remember a few names? )

 

Barring some minor miracles from the current young group it looks like more of the same going back 20 years since Cleveland lost pro football. ......geezzz how dreary that sounds.

 

GO BROWNS, surprise us!

[calfoxwc]

Archie Manning was a good qb. Went to the Saints.

 

lost for years.

 

How did Tenn do last year?

[jiggins7919]

Mud, I think it's safe to say that many of us share your concerns. I know your feelings on Kruger, and they are justified. He's slow, poor against the run, and easily blocked. My only concern is a rookie is taking his place. Perhaps our coaching staff has the confidence in Ogbah to play better, and frankly, he probably can. But placing that much faith in a rookie who has been moved around all camp is rather frightening.

 

We aren't going to be good this year, let's get that right. But I think your diagnosis of our offense is a tad bit premature. By no means do I believe we're going to be some damn juggernaut, but I do think we have some decent games scoring the ball this year. Now, the games we DON'T score or move well will be mainly because our defense has placed us in a hole, and RG III has to pass every down while scanning the field. We get down early and it WILL get ugly. We'll have to pass without the threat of running, and after we go 3 and out, the opposition will run all over us and drain the clock. A bad combination to say the least. But if by some miracle we have some games that are pretty close, I could see us moving the ball.

 

Hue Jackson will employ a rather gimmicky offense, and he will work hard to provide RG III with easy reads. My point being is that he is going to show very little in the preseason of our true offense. Sure, we can glean some aspects from the preseason, but I have to think Hue is playing his cards close to the vest. We've shown the "read-option" a couple times, but we haven't shown it a lot, and we haven't shown variations. The two times or so I saw the option, RG III kept the ball. Once for a huge gain (that could've been way more), and another that Tampa diagnosed well. I'm sure we ran it more than that, but those are the two I remember. What I'm getting at is, I think the read-option will be a slightly bigger part of our playbook than people think, and I'm ok with that. I saw Marcus Mariota complete many easy throws that went for big yards, so I don't want to hear how it's a dead strategy and defenses have figured it out. I'm not saying it will be the basis for our offense, but we'll run it several times a quarter. We showed the basics in preseason, but there are countless variations yet to come.

 

Coleman didn't practice for about 9 days before the Bucs game, and his rust was obvious. The one catch that was called back for a penalty (shocking) was one of my favorite plays, and Coleman looked right at home with it. He tore up our team before his hammie injury, and while our corners aren't great, and neither are the safeties, I think he'll make an impact. Pryor has also demonstrated the ability to catch the ball and make plays, and Hawkins and Gabriel can too. Toss in Gary, Duke, and possibly Higgins, and I think we'll make it work until Gordon gets back.

 

Our defense sucks and I can't argue with you. I want to, but I can't. People heard me talk about Shelton, and I hope he works out, but I have my doubts. Gilbert won't cut it, Mingo is gone, Haden needs to be healthy, and we don't have any OLB's that can get to the QB. Oh, and we also can't stop the run, and it might be worse. We lost K'Waun Williams, and our safeties are unproven, and probably undertalented. We're basically a mess, and it pains me.

[The Gipper]

If you suddenly got Otto Graham or Joe Montana back in their prime they'd have a hard time with this bunch to go 8-8, a good start maybe to attract good FAs but not the total fix.

 

The first ~5+ or so years back from the dead the BROWNS had opportunities to start building a playoff caliber team starting with the DL but it didn't happen (remember a few names? )

 

Barring some minor miracles from the current young group it looks like more of the same going back 20 years since Cleveland lost pro football. ......geezzz how dreary that sounds.

 

GO BROWNS, surprise us!

The best strategy would have been to not draft like 8 or10 busts in a row in the first round.

But, whattay gonna do about that now?

[Tour2ma]

I appreciate what your saying...I honestly do.....but you are assuming these young guys are gonna all be good and there is ZERO reason to believe that....MOST of them are mid to late picks, with a sprinkling of UDFA's and other teams cuts....there are only a FEW that even remotely show promise to be anything better than average(if that)....one, maybe two, who show all star potential...

 

So.....just because they are young, doesn't mean a damn thing......a lot of bad teams are full of young, middling and below average players.....

 

Honestly....this is gonna be a 5 year deal and I aint gonna participate much in it, cause Im tired of it.....at least Ill have my fall weekends back, for the first time in 40 years.....

 

OK... time to take a deep breath, my friend... can't go on about Krug's "no talent" play and then decry his replacement just because he is not ready.

 

What difference does it make how ready Ogbah is? What difference does a few weeks of camp make to his development? Make the change... let the learning begin.

 

This is not a "team" season. It is not about W/L. It's about player evaluation. It's about establishing the feedback loop for the Big Brown Analytics' Machine (BBAM). It's about seeing if what the FO thought they detected in those "mid to late picks, with a sprinkling of UDFA's and other teams cuts" is really there and to what extent.

 

... RG III has to pass every down while scanning the field.

Premise is correct. Conclusion assumes facts not in evidence.