Report: Browns Begin Searching For New Football Executive

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

So you beleive in analytics so much that bringing football people in would disgust you so much? Im not 100% against analytics, it has its place but it might be in other sports. 

I want former high level players making draft decisions, not a bean counter. You can use analytics deciding on established free agents and what their actual value is vs what they're asking for etc, etc. I just dont see how someone like sashi brown with no eye for what goes on when the pads come on, how his opinion can trump the opinion on...lets say a QB... of a guy like manning

It's not "analytics vs. old-school". It's the consensus process we have instituted. That is what I love.

We tried your route from '99 thru '015. Give my way another couple years.

1 hour ago, CaineDeSoulis said:

Completely Agree Tour. I really enjoy the philosophy and method this FO is using but its really in its infancy in our organization. My issues have been with coaching and scheme some personal preference and some obvious misuse. I just cant get my head around the fact we grabbed so many athletic in space playmakers and run a scheme thats predicated on low percentage plays better suited to veteran players. A good example is the vertical passing game is greatly enhanced when a wily vet can get the PI calls. Britt for example Excelled GREATLY in Crossing routes as did Cody Kessler AND Sammie Coates but we rarely run them now... Funnily enough Kessler had the Highest QB Rating in the league on these routes...

"Louis, this may be the beginning of a beautiful friendship."

31 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I agree and disagree.  I believe in the draft capital approach to an extent - I don't believe in how we've gone about identifying the talent.   I still can't find it in myself to get past a couple of the players we ignored.  

This is where i believe Sashi needs his role reduced. 

First, "Sashi's role", and the consensus approach it represents, is precisely what I believe in.

Second, we all can name players we did not pick that we'd have preferred in varying degrees due to hindsight. Most of mine are either darkhorse QBs or OL, but Ibranched out this year and nailed a couple FS's... and of whom would look pretty good in Centerfield this season freeing Peppers to be Peppers. But I also know I'd have missed Njoku and Ogunjobi and Dayes and Schobert and Kindred and...

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I'm not saying Manning couldn't be successful, I just wonder if some people love the idea of Manning because he's a big name.

Admit it... you really don't wonder about this... c'mon... it's OK... you can admit it.

There is zero evidence Manning has the chops to be a GM.

 

As for Polian.... why is it he would be available? And this is coming from a guy who listens when Bill speaks.

[Dutch Oven]

5 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Admit it... you really don't wonder about this... c'mon... it's OK... you can admit it.

There is zero evidence Manning has the chops to be a GM.

 

As for Polian.... why is it he would be available? And this is coming from a guy who listens when Bill speaks.

Not saying it is impossible, but the list of Hall of Fame players who became even above average head coaches/managers/GMs in football/baseball/basketball isn't a real lengthy one.

[wargograw]

18 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

Defensively yes, offensively i cant really tell if we're better or worse yet. 

We’re slightly worse there, but on the net, this team is far better. 

18 hours ago, hoorta said:

Because I'm a fan W. Doesn't mean I have to have blinders on. That was major suckage 20+ games into a rebuild? We're the football equivalent of the Cubs loveable losers, deal with it.

I am dealing with it. You’re the one whining and being impatient. Just wait a year. Next year will be fun. 

8 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

If we change the defense again omg fuk all of u. Srsly if i see myles garrett chasing slot wr's downfield next year im done being a browns fan, which mrans football is over for me. The browns are the only thing i give a fuk about in the nfl. If we bring in some new fgt DC that changes scheme again and takes us back to 31st in all categories, im done.

all of u that would entertain even the thought of swapping dc's again need to just burn ur browns gear and just go riot fir another team. U show how profoundly ignorant u are of how football works. Defenses arent plug in play things that swapping a new scheme in and out makes a light go on. We have players from previous defenses that need rooted out and evicted, thst doesnt change overnight. Swap schemes again and we create a whole new mismatch of characters omg fuk u fuk u fuk u fuk u right in ur mouths.

Get that football insight outta here

8 hours ago, Marc1971 said:

I don't agree wit Jimmy, Jimmy is the problem, dare I say Jimmy is the #1 enemy (a Steelers loving crook).

He WAS the problem (with his revolving door), and if he fired the current regime, he will prove that he still is. But as long as he doesn’t, he’s not. 

3 hours ago, dawg2fan said:

I hate hearing from people on this board talking about players we should have taken.  If we had taken Carr, he would've been more beat up than he is now.  The fact is we've been trying to get good talent, but we don't give coaches enough time.  Our fans want the coaches to go after one or two years.  I still think we need to give them at least 3-5 years.  Again, no team has a worse record than we do when it comes to firing coaches.  How many have we had since '99?  I forgot.

You’d think at some point with so many GMs people would say “hey maybe they’re not the problem, maybe it’s something else.” But nope. People actually think it’s just GM’s faults that we’ve missed on so many first rounders. 

[Canton Dawg]

1 minute ago, wargograw said:

People actually think it’s just GM’s faults that we’ve missed on so many first rounders. 

We all know it was the homeless guy’s fault.

[Tour2ma]

1 minute ago, wargograw said:

We’re slightly worse there, but on the net, this team is far better. 

When McC left, that the O would decline was a given.

2 minutes ago, wargograw said:

You’d think at some point with so many GMs people would say “hey maybe they’re not the problem, maybe it’s something else.” But nope. People actually think it’s just GM’s faults that we’ve missed on so many first rounders. 

Well, when you draft so many busts under "football guy" regimes, it's hard not to blame the Farmers and Holmgrens and the (fill in the blanks).

[D Bone]

2 hours ago, wargograw said:

You’d think at some point with so many GMs people would say “hey maybe they’re not the problem, maybe it’s something else.” But nope. People actually think it’s just GM’s faults that we’ve missed on so many first rounders. 

We all sit here on pins and needles, so please All Mighty Glorious One, please enlighten us humble, simple knownuthins with your vast football knowledge as to what "the something else" is...

[tiamat63]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

First, "Sashi's role", and the consensus approach it represents, is precisely what I believe in.

Second, we all can name players we did not pick that we'd have preferred in varying degrees due to hindsight. Most of mine are either darkhorse QBs or OL, but Ibranched out this year and nailed a couple FS's... and of whom would look pretty good in Centerfield this season freeing Peppers to be Peppers. But I also know I'd have missed Njoku and Ogunjobi and Dayes and Schobert and Kindred and...

 

I was lead to believe Sashi's role would be a marriage of analytics and football minds.    Instead I haven't found that to always be the case and when we seem to give our obligatory "coaches pick" that goes off the rails as well.    I.E.  Kess and Peppers.        Basically if we aren't picking right off of PFF's boards we're going with the "HE'S A FOOTBALL PLAYER RARRARARR" crowd.  These are two dogmatic approaches that scare the Sheet out of me.  

I can't really credit our current draft approach for finding Njoku or Ogunjobi.  The former was a well sought after prospect that came to us during a run on his position and the other was dug up after our coaching staff was able to get hands on during the senior bowl.     I yield Dayes, Schobert and Kindred.   Though the first of those three has yet to see any meaningful NFL action.     

 

I agree, we need to give this more time.   But I still believe this organization, more than anything, needs a 'no' man.     Someone that believes in the idea of what our FO is attempting, but is willing to interject some common sense and genuine football when need be.  And vice versa, someone to settle down the "FOOSBALL PLAYAAAAA" bunch.                 As of right now,  that person doesn't exist in this franchise AFAIC.  

[hoorta]

5 hours ago, wargograw said:

1) We’re slightly worse there, but on the net, this team is far better. 

2)I am dealing with it. You’re the one whining and being impatient. Just wait a year. Next year will be fun. 

3)He WAS the problem (with his revolving door), and if he fired the current regime, he will prove that he still is. But as long as he doesn’t, he’s not. 

1) A far better team should have been able to at least muster a few points in the first half against the very mediocre Colts, probably even have gotten a win. 

2) The impatient # of Browns fans is legion, and growing after each successive loss. So don't single me out. And in case you don't realize it- there's a good number of us on the board- me, Cal, Canton Mike (that I personally have met) are running out of "next years" fast. I really have no choice but to be "patient" But that doesn't mean as a season ticket holder I'm thrilled about the product I'm shelling out money to see play like garbage. And don't tell me to dump them, unless you want to write me a check for $20,000 to buy back in when (in the far distant future) they're actually a playoff team. 

3) OK, Jimmy give 'em 5 years- if we still suck, do us all a favor and sell the team. 

[Canton Dawg]

There isn’t a team in the NFL that will stand pat in the FO, or HC through 5 years of suck age. Ain’t happening.

[OldBrownsFan]

The problem I see since 99 is that we put a foundation in place and then continually tear it down and start over. There is no continuity. Players were drafted for one scheme and then when there is regime change new philosophies are implemented and different type players needed for the new schemes on offense and defense. That is the reason I don't want to start over again but we have to have the right foundation  to start with. Expectations were not high this year but I thought we would be better than this. Coming off 1-15 last year I thought we might get 6 wins this year and be in play off contention next year but we are staring at a winless season right now. Not seeing improvement from last year and that should not be a hard bar to achieve. 

I would have liked to see us go a different route. A simple philosophy of hiring the best available as HC and the FO and then having the confidence to stay with them and give them time to succeed. In hiring the best to look at their track records. If they have a prior track record of success that is a good indication with time they will be successful with the Browns.  I believe that formula would have worked many years ago. 

[Dutch Oven]

10 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

The problem I see since 99 is that we put a foundation in place and then continually tear it down and start over. There is no continuity. Players were drafted for one scheme and then when there is regime change new philosophies are implemented and different type players needed for the new schemes on offense and defense. That is the reason I don't want to start over again but we have to have the right foundation  to start with. Expectations were not high this year but I thought we would be better than this. Coming off 1-15 last year I thought we might get 6 wins this year and be in play off contention next year but we are staring at a winless season right now. Not seeing improvement from last year and that should not be a hard bar to achieve. 

I would have liked to see us go a different route. A simple philosophy of hiring the best available as HC and the FO and then having the confidence to stay with them and give them time to succeed. In hiring the best to look at their track records. If they have a prior track record of success that is a good indication with time they will be successful with the Browns.  I believe that formula would have worked many years ago. 

Are you insinuating that the Browns didn't hire the best on purpose? It takes two to tango, just because the Browns want someone doesn't mean that person wanted the Browns. Look at some head coaches we've had recently, guys who didn't even get an interview with another team. There's a reason for that.

[OldBrownsFan]

7 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Are you insinuating that the Browns didn't hire the best on purpose? It takes two to tango, just because the Browns want someone doesn't mean that person wanted the Browns. Look at some head coaches we've had recently, guys who didn't even get an interview with another team. There's a reason for that.

Through the years since 99 the Browns obviously didn't think they hired the best for their positions or they wouldn't have fired them every other year. My guess is that turnover rate as much as anything now is a good reason many may not want to work for this organization. If they take the job will they be given enough time to turn things around before being fired? 

[D Bone]

Interesting article supporting Tour's, War's and others' opinion on having to Trust The Process:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/cleveland_may_not_be_strong_en.html#incart_big-photo

 

 

[wargograw]

13 hours ago, D Bone said:

We all sit here on pins and needles, so please All Mighty Glorious One, please enlighten us humble, simple knownuthins with your vast football knowledge as to what "the something else" is...

The fact that we toss them every two years.

20 minutes ago, D Bone said:

Interesting article supporting Tour's, War's and others' opinion on having to Trust The Process:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/cleveland_may_not_be_strong_en.html#incart_big-photo

 

 

Exactly. And every fan should take the opening sentence to heart. 

 

“Cleveland may not be strong enough to allow the plan to see itself through....”

[Canton Dawg]

1 hour ago, D Bone said:

Interesting article supporting Tour's, War's and others' opinion on having to Trust The Process:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/cleveland_may_not_be_strong_en.html#incart_big-photo

 

 

This entire "process" is based on the premise that the FO will actually draft NFL caliber players.

I don't have an issue with the ideology, I have an issue with their execution of picking players. 

[D Bone]

7 minutes ago, Canton Dawg said:

This entire "process" is based on the premise that the FO will actually draft NFL caliber players.

I don't have an issue with the ideology, I have an issue with their execution of picking players. 

Agree 100%..... It's not The Process that most of us are unhappy with, it's simply the execution of that process. 

 

[Tour2ma]

 

8 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

There isn’t a team in the NFL that will stand pat in the FO, or HC through 5 years of suck age. Ain’t happening.

49ers ownership seems to be prepared to... gave they rookie GM and HC 6-year contracts.

8 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

I would have liked to see us go a different route. A simple philosophy of hiring the best available as HC and the FO and then having the confidence to stay with them and give them time to succeed. In hiring the best to look at their track records. If they have a prior track record of success that is a good indication with time they will be successful with the Browns.  I believe that formula would have worked many years ago. 

Beautiful approach... also fanciful... also tried... also hindsight laden. Once upon a time we dropped a bunch of candidates in that hopper, turned the crank and out came... Holmgren. We haven't had a better hire to head our FO in forever... on paper.

Other wise look who we were able to attract, a/k/a "the best available". Who have we let go from the FO to this point that did not deserve to go? What FO can match what are current one has done cumulatively in all aspects of their function: trades, draft, UDFA, FA, signings? As for HC's... Mangini was let go too early ,IMO... and that was by the above machine output. Pet? I can make a case for him as well, but why bother... he's already been swept over the dam/under the bridge and out to sea.

We have always hired what we thought was the best available... who would be hired by us.

4 hours ago, D Bone said:

Interesting article supporting Tour's, War's and others' opinion on having to Trust The Process:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/cleveland_may_not_be_strong_en.html#incart_big-photo

I wonder if I can sue for plagiarism?

[Tour2ma]

15 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I was lead to believe Sashi's role would be a marriage of analytics and football minds.    Instead I haven't found that to always be the case and when we seem to give our obligatory "coaches pick" that goes off the rails as well.    I.E.  Kess and Peppers.        Basically if we aren't picking right off of PFF's boards we're going with the "HE'S A FOOTBALL PLAYER RARRARARR" crowd.  These are two dogmatic approaches that scare the Sheet out of me.  

I can't really credit our current draft approach for finding Njoku or Ogunjobi.  The former was a well sought after prospect that came to us during a run on his position and the other was dug up after our coaching staff was able to get hands on during the senior bowl.     I yield Dayes, Schobert and Kindred.   Though the first of those three has yet to see any meaningful NFL action.    

I agree, we need to give this more time.   But I still believe this organization, more than anything, needs a 'no' man.     Someone that believes in the idea of what our FO is attempting, but is willing to interject some common sense and genuine football when need be.  And vice versa, someone to settle down the "FOOSBALL PLAYAAAAA" bunch.                 As of right now,  that person doesn't exist in this franchise AFAIC.  

Well... we went and got Njoku... traded back into the 1st with the Packers to get him. So there's that...

Not sure where you are getting your "either or" approach take. The whole purpose of the organization Sashi sits atop is to seek (and test) consensus. That both the scouting and analytical braintrusts can at minimum live with a player at a given pick or contract amount or trade package is at the core of the process. When the price is high, as in a Day One draft choice, that minimum level is likely quite high. By the time the decisions are around UDFAs... not so much. That one group or the other... or Hue representing the staff view... gets alternating choices over the objections of the other department is not in the process. That I can guarantee.

Let's look at Ogunjobi.... Do you really believe that a player who was selected to play in the Senior Bowl was not already on our radar? That neither scouting nor analytics had already done extensive work on him... and liked him? I don't. That Hue and Company may have come back from that game singing his praises was merely confirmation. Confirming the consensus output where they can is the role I see for the staff.

I don't see a deal like Rexy had with the Jets... where he got a pick a draft every year. I don't see Hue having "veto power" or "override power" should he either not want or want a player Sashi's boys do or don't like. To give the Staff that power would make no sense. Scouting and Analytics work year 'round identifying talent. Hue & Co. spend maybe two months doing so. The months they spend coaching a bowl, at the Combine, at Pro-days, conducting private workouts. If they are spending any more time, then they are not adequately focused on their primary jobs.

Might Kessler have been an exception? Possible that given the short prep time for the incoming FO Hue was given a little more weight in the process... maybe even given a one-off pick. We all saw Hue's warroom reaction, so maybe he was coveting Kess... but what we saw could have as well been based on "relief that we got him" as "I got my way/guy."

Bottom line... I see in our process a marriage of "PFF-like" evaluating (or SPARQ's or DePo-lytics) and the good ol' boy "Footsball Play-yah" scouting... not a tennis (or wrestling) match between them.

And I like it...

[Tour2ma]

9 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

The problem I see since 99 is that we put a foundation in place and then continually tear it down and start over. There is has been no continuity. Players were drafted for one scheme and then when there is regime change new philosophies are implemented and different type players needed for the new schemes on offense and defense.

That is the reason I don't want to start over again but we have to have the right foundation  to start with. Expectations were not high this year but I thought we would be better than this. Coming off 1-15 last year I thought we might get 6 wins this year and be in play off contention next year but we are staring at a winless season right now. Not seeing improvement from last year and that should not be a hard bar to achieve.

I jumped on the last part overlooking the first two... which I agree with... with the one minor change I made. The 3-4 to 4-3 to 3-4 wheel we were spinning was the most obvious example, but the scheme changes were there on Offense as well. Plus, under the same-old "foorball guru" FO structure, we made some very, very bad choices.

I would argue we now have a foundation that is closer to being right than we have had in a very long time. I too overestimated our 2017 progress as I thought a degree of competence would be wrung out of the QB spot in the form of Kessler. Kinda missed seeing what has transpired there.

 

4 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

This entire "process" is based on the premise that the FO will actually draft NFL caliber players. I don't have an issue with the ideology, I have an issue with their execution of picking players. 

I checked... other than not being high on Peppers, you did not appear to have an issue with our draft at the time. What changed?

On 5/3/2017 at 5:53 PM, Canton Dawg said:

Gil Brandt tweeted. . . Browns added 9 players from my Hot 150 (Nos. 1, 21, 29, 33, 92, 132, 139, 146). No other team had more than 6.

[Canton Dawg]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

 

49ers ownership seems to be prepared to... gave they rookie GM and HC 6-year contracts.

The niners are only 4 years removed from their last playoff appearance (5 from the SB). If they couldn’t retain the HC and GM after relatively successful seasons, just imagine how long they’re going to keep them if they suck?...it won’t be 6 years.

[Canton Dawg]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

I checked... other than not being high on Peppers, you did not appear to have an issue with our draft at the time. What changed?

 

My opinion of the FO has little to do with this years crop of rookies (although many aren’t looking promising).

My biggest bitch stems from the way they mishandled the WR position. They drafted 5 last year, brought in several FA’s and in the process let Benji & Hawkins go. From that point forward the WR has been a position of need. How did they fix it? They paid $32 million for 4 years for Kenny Britt. He’s played so bad, that he got benched 5 games into his first year. The 4 WR’s that started this past weekend against the Texans, 3 weren’t on the roster in week 1. I would say that reeks of desperation in trying to find competent help in the WR department. After all, the often injured Coleman has been less than stellar...whenever he plays.

I could type a novel about the QB position, but I’ll save that for another time.

[Tour2ma]

Ah... so NOW the conversation is on the 2016 Draft...

Back later after I dig deeper into the archives.

[Harry Buffalo]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

I jumped on the last part overlooking the first two... which I agree with... with the one minor change I made. The 3-4 to 4-3 to 3-4 wheel we were spinning was the most obvious example, but the scheme changes were there on Offense as well. Plus, under the same-old "foorball guru" FO structure, we made some very, very bad choices.

I would argue we now have a foundation that is closer to being right than we have had in a very long time. I too overestimated our 2017 progress as I thought a degree of competence would be wrung out of the QB spot in the form of Kessler. Kinda missed seeing what has transpired there.

 

I checked... other than not being high on Peppers, you did not appear to have an issue with our draft at the time. What changed?

 

I think one of the most screwed up things this season, and I like Hue and I may be wrong, but I think Kessler is the most talented QB on the roster right now and Hue is refusing to use him because his skills don't mesh with how he wants to run the offense. This is my biggest reason for wanting Hue to have an OC and its because he will not talor his offense to the talent he has on hand. I mean Hogan isn't much different from Kessler, he doesn't have a rocket arm and he doesn't have any real talent out there to throw to, and he designed the game plan like Derek Anderson was running the show. Other than the win lose record last year, Kessler had great stats for a rookie, but Hue was very open about the fact that he wanted the ball pushed downfield and Kessler couldn't do it. 

[D Bone]

8 hours ago, D Bone said:

Interesting article supporting Tour's, War's and others' opinion on having to Trust The Process:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/cleveland_may_not_be_strong_en.html#incart_big-photo

 

 

 

In the name of balance, and clearly points out blunder after blunder:  (I already know that those that don't want to hear this will simply say, "who cares, it's MKC".)

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/jimmy_haslams_plan_isnt_workin.html

 

[Tour2ma]

I care that it's MKC!

If she wants to take a victory lap over something she said last December, so be it. But after a ten month silence, it carries little weight with me... no matter the writer.

And then there's this pearl: "I wrote it last December and I'm repeating it here: A personnel trio devoid of anyone who's ever assembled a winning football team isn't going to fly."

1. We've had supposed assemblers of "winning football teams" heading up our org. They failed.
2. Assemblers of winning football teams tend to stay employed by the orgs for whom they've built winners.

Nothing like a writer following their fan base to keep readers.

15 hours ago, Harry Buffalo said:

I think one of the most screwed up things this season, and I like Hue and I may be wrong, but I think Kessler is the most talented QB on the roster right now and Hue is refusing to use him because his skills don't mesh with how he wants to run the offense. This is my biggest reason for wanting Hue to have an OC and its because he will not talor his offense to the talent he has on hand. I mean Hogan isn't much different from Kessler, he doesn't have a rocket arm and he doesn't have any real talent out there to throw to, and he designed the game plan like Derek Anderson was running the show. Other than the win lose record last year, Kessler had great stats for a rookie, but Hue was very open about the fact that he wanted the ball pushed downfield and Kessler couldn't do it. 

Agree on Kess/Hogan similarities. Only added point I'd make is Kess really spit the bit in preseason. He wasn't close to the same QB that showed some promise in 2016... at least that's the impression I remember having of him then. Could well be that he was trying to run Hue's offense and secure the starting role he was in line to assume, and simply was not capable of doing so. And now we know neither is Hogan.

Hogan flashed some in two relief appearances. But if you reflect on his flashes, you can see his game was very similar to what Kess showed in '16. Both players' limited success came in the form of short to intermediate timing passes.

And that ain't Hue...

[hoorta]

15 hours ago, D Bone said:

 

In the name of balance, and clearly points out blunder after blunder:  (I already know that those that don't want to hear this will simply say, "who cares, it's MKC".)

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/jimmy_haslams_plan_isnt_workin.html

 

Beat me to it.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

She nailed it in that article.  

[darren15]

All those picks in 2018 ...we need someone with football knowledge to make the picks...not an executive with no footballing background and a baseball guy ....

[Marc1971]

1 hour ago, darren15 said:

All those picks in 2018 ...we need someone with football knowledge to make the picks...not an executive with no footballing background and a baseball guy ....

That draft cannot be underestimated in terms of how important it is. It should make or break the current regime.

If it doesn't work crooked Jimmy should sell up.