Dorsey Hired

[Mark O]

8 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I will cry no tears if that happens.   And I won't at all hold it against Jimmy if he doesn't keep his word about keeping Hue on.

But I am curious of course about who Dorsey would bring in, if he had that chance.

Any speculation on that name?  Of course, the place to look is the "Tree".  Since Dorsey is a part of the Bill Walsh tree....we can look there. Start with former HCs:

Mike Smith

Marty Morningwheg

Jon Gruden

Raheem Morris

Spagnuolo

Leslie Frazier

Jim Schwartz

Tom Cable

Scott Linehan

Mike Singletary

Mike Nolan

Rex Ryan

Brian Billick

Jim Zorn

Cross off any of the big names guys because Gruden, Cowher (yeah right), Harbaugh, etc, etc..are going to want complete control of the roster.  They're going to want to be HC and GM in order to leave their cushy TV or college gigs. 

I'd look at a guy like David Shaw at Stanford...see if he's willing to leave Palo Alto like Bill Walsh did way back when.

Of the names on your list?  I hate every single one of them for one reason or another.   I actually think Billick is an interesting name but he's said many times in interviews that he's done coaching, but if he'd be willing to come here as a FO consultant type, I wouldn't hate that decision.

Otherwise, find a young, hungry coordinator who wants to work his ass off to build a winner in Cleveland.   That's the guy we need to find.  Fuck if i know who he is...but that's what we need. 

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Not true, but thanks anyway for the recognition.

First... How dare you besmirch Wheezy's legacy! Kizer's pass was nowhere near Wheezy worthy. Wheezy did not need assists from Defenders to make a throw like that.

Second... of course Jimmah's impatience played a role. It is his shtick... but it was fed by others this time.

Hue got Jimmah's ear. We know that from the McCarron gambit, which you and other Sashi detractors laud him for scuttling. I think that was the opening that led to Sashi's downfall. That opened Jimmah to more "input" from Hue on where the responsibility for the record lay.

Add in the culmination of the "Football Guy Search" (which undoubtedly included dinners with Dorsey and likely included more "it did not have to be this bad" whimsy) and top that with Sashi's reluctance to accept Dorsey in a process-destroying role.

Third... remember "the approach" (not to be confused with the process), which included picking up draft picks via the loss of veterans thru FA, was agreed to by Jimmah.

Hey I don't think I ever said Sashi did everything badly. But for good or ill, what's done is done. The SS Sashi Brown was torpedoed by the HMS Haslam. I doubt we'll ever know all the reasons, but I suspect it wasn't just the McCarron gambit. Regarding Hue, if he hypnotized Haslam, he'll be the next out the door when Dorsey breaks the spell he put on Jimmy. If you listened to Hue's post game presser right after Sashi was fired (I did) he was pretty clear it's a bottom line business, and his performance to date has been lacking. 

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Hey! You stole part of my sig!

Interesting thought on Sashi's future with another team. It is hard to believe that at least one team will not see what he accomplished in Berea. Whoever does hire him will set the bigger Berea exodus in motion.

If nothing else, Sashi will certainly land a job with another team as a bean counter\salary guy extraordinaire. Will that be anytime soon? Not so sure about that Tour. MHO? teams will be really leery of the 1-28 (and counting) Albatross he'll bring along with him. In today's NFL of quick turnarounds, what team is going to give him  3-4 years to do a total rebuild? 

[hoorta]

4 minutes ago, Mark O said:

Cross off any of the big names guys because Gruden, Cowher (yeah right), Harbaugh, etc, etc..are going to want complete control of the roster.  They're going to want to be HC and GM in order to leave their cushy TV or college gigs. 

I'd look at a guy like David Shaw at Stanford...see if he's willing to leave Palo Alto like Bill Walsh did way back when.

Of the names on your list?  I hate every single one of them for one reason or another.   I actually think Billick is an interesting name but he's said many times in interviews that he's done coaching, but if he'd be willing to come here as a FO consultant type, I wouldn't hate that decision.

Otherwise, find a young, hungry coordinator who wants to work his butt off to build a winner in Cleveland.   That's the guy we need to find.  Shmuck if i know who he is...but that's what we need. 

Ghoolie will totally agree with you Mark. & exactly Dorsey was brought in to shape the roster, and he's not going to let his hand picked coach do it for him. I hope whoever it is will want to run a 4-3 base defense, or else it's another teardown\rebuild on that side of the ball. 

[Mark O]

10 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Ghoolie will totally agree with you Mark. & exactly Dorsey was brought in to shape the roster, and he's not going to let his hand picked coach do it for him. I hope whoever it is will want to run a 4-3 base defense, or else it's another teardown\rebuild on that side of the ball. 

The only way one of those "big name coaches" comes here is if they really want to work hand in hand with Dorsey, then a guy like Gruden or whoever might not need total control but I still don't see it.  A guy isn't going to leave his cushy 5 mill a year TV gig to work his ass off 20 hours per day without having total control of the roster.

 

[Dutch Oven]

2 hours ago, Mark O said:

The only way one of those "big name coaches" comes here is if they really want to work hand in hand with Dorsey, then a guy like Gruden or whoever might not need total control but I still don't see it.  A guy isn't going to leave his cushy 5 mill a year TV gig to work his butt off 20 hours per day without having total control of the roster.

 

Not saying you are asking for it Mark, but I can't stress how Jon Gruden being the head coach of this Browns team would be a horrible idea.

He hates young players. His Raiders and Bucs team were some of the oldest teams in the league because of his preference of veteran players.

But I still don't think it's a slam dunk that Hue makes it past the Steelers game.

[Tour2ma]

14 hours ago, hoorta said:

Hey I don't think I ever said Sashi did everything badly. But for good or ill, what's done is done. The SS Sashi Brown was torpedoed by the HMS Haslam. I doubt we'll ever know all the reasons, but I suspect it wasn't just the McCarron gambit. Regarding Hue, if he hypnotized Haslam, he'll be the next out the door when Dorsey breaks the spell he put on Jimmy. If you listened to Hue's post game presser right after Sashi was fired (I did) he was pretty clear it's a bottom line business, and his performance to date has been lacking. 

If nothing else, Sashi will certainly land a job with another team as a bean counter\salary guy extraordinaire. Will that be anytime soon? Not so sure about that Tour. MHO? teams will be really leery of the 1-28 (and counting) Albatross he'll bring along with him. In today's NFL of quick turnarounds, what team is going to give him  3-4 years to do a total rebuild? 

lol... Don't look now, but next year is year three. I love the clinging to the "quick turnaround" myth.

Also love that you give Sashi credit for managing the cap, but damn him for the manner in which he did it.

As for Hue's "narrative"... did you expect Hue to say, "I saw an opening and shoved AJ so far up Sashi's a$$ that there was no way he could stay afloat?" lol...

As for Sashi's next job... was thinking about this a lil last nite... running thru candidates. Anyway I came up with three criteria:

• Teams that haven't won it all.
• Teams that have been competitive recently, but are now falling.
• Teams that have ownership with a reputation for being "thrifty".

The name that fits? Cincinnati Bengals... No idea if it actually happens, but I could see Mike Brown loving the idea of turning the Browns abandoned approach back on them.

[Westside Steve]

9 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

lol... Don't look now, but next year is year three. I love the clinging to the "quick turnaround" myth.

Also love that you give Sashi credit for managing the cap, but damn him for the manner in which he did it.

As for Hue's "narrative"... did you expect Hue to say, "I saw an opening and shoved AJ so far up Sashi's a$$ that there was no way he could stay afloat?" lol...

As for Sashi's next job... was thinking about this a lil last nite... running thru candidates. Anyway I came up with three criteria:

• Teams that haven't won it all.
• Teams that have been competitive recently, but are now falling.
• Teams that have ownership with a reputation for being "thrifty".

The name that fits? Cincinnati Bengals... No idea if it actually happens, but I could see Mike Brown loving the idea of turning the Browns abandoned approach back on them.

Ironically I was thinking of the Cincinnati Bengals before I finished reading your post! The reason being is that Mike Brown has always liked spending as little as he possibly of the salary cap and pocketing the rest.

WSS

[Mark O]

12 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Not saying you are asking for it Mark, but I can't stress how Jon Gruden being the head coach of this Browns team would be a horrible idea.

He hates young players. His Raiders and Bucs team were some of the oldest teams in the league because of his preference of veteran players.

But I still don't think it's a slam dunk that Hue makes it past the Steelers game.

I"m not asking for it.  In fact, I think any "retread coach" is a horrific idea, especially one that has already won the big game.   It's only happened once in history that someone has won the title with 2 different teams.   I'll take those odds and bet that it isn't going to happen again any time soon so my vote would be to find whoever the next hot young assistant coach is in the league (like the Rams did with McVey) or I'd certainly make a call to David Shaw at Stanford.

[Tour2ma]

I think Coaching Tree is the wrong place to look for Dorsey's "mystery HC". I'd look at paths he's crossed during his playing and post-playing careers. Look at who he knows personally.

• Bob Sutton has been KC's DC for 5 years running. Long DC history before that plus 9 years of HC at Army. Bit old at almost 67.
• Tom Clements was a long time GB assistant during Dorsey's tenure. Rose to OC level. Also bit old at 64.... and is not in football this season(?).

Not easy to dig much deeper.

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

lol... Don't look now, but next year is year three. I love the clinging to the "quick turnaround" myth.

Also love that you give Sashi credit for managing the cap, but damn him for the manner in which he did it.

As for Hue's "narrative"... did you expect Hue to say, "I saw an opening and shoved AJ so far up Sashi's a$$ that there was no way he could stay afloat?" lol...

As for Sashi's next job... was thinking about this a lil last nite... running thru candidates. Anyway I came up with three criteria:

• Teams that haven't won it all.
• Teams that have been competitive recently, but are now falling.
• Teams that have ownership with a reputation for being "thrifty".

The name that fits? Cincinnati Bengals... No idea if it actually happens, but I could see Mike Brown loving the idea of turning the Browns abandoned approach back on them.

Year  3, too early to tell but what's your expectations for the Browns? I had us at 4 wins this year, and border line playoffs next. MHO is 2017 = Epic Fail, who knows 2018? But it better be at least 8 wins. Teams have gone from dumpster fires to the  Super Bowl in that time frame. 

Regarding the Bengals, hmmmm. Maybe. Mikey does like to stick it to the Browns. But Mike's daughter Katie Blackburn is their GM in training when Brown passes on. Sashi would just be their Cap guy, he'd never get roster control in Cincy.

[Tour2ma]

Not sure if in the 9 pages and counting the link to this article was posted. It's a good, fairly quick read.

The John Dorsey Dismissal: Where It Went Wrong in K.C.

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2017/06/29/kansas-city-chiefs-john-dorsey-fired-nfl-notebook

The article goes bit deeper into a couple of the issues mentioned a couple posts along the way here. For example...

Given the power each then wielded, the stock criticism of Dorsey—that while he’s incredibly respected as an evaluator, he’s more scout than manager—was validated with a level of disorganization that was noticeable before the hyper-organized Ballard departed, and obvious after he left for Indy.

As one source explained it, “It wasn’t dysfunction so much as it was decisions were being made that seemed to come out of nowhere. So that existed, but the people here weren’t aware that ownership was aware of it. … You look back now, how it worked out, and ownership was more aware that it didn’t need to be run that way.”

There were also a few flash points to prove it out over the past 18 months:

• The selection of Stanford quarterback Kevin Hogan in the fifth round of the 2016 draft. That move stunned scouts and coaches, based on the evaluation and meetings leading up to the draft. Hogan didn’t wind up making the team four months later, and started last season on the Browns’ practice squad.

[Unsympathetic]

The above link also includes a refresher on the status of analytics within all 32 teams.. not just Berea.

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

I think Coaching Tree is the wrong place to look for Dorsey's "mystery HC". I'd look at paths he's crossed during his playing and post-playing careers. Look at who he knows personally.

• Bob Sutton has been KC's DC for 5 years running. Long DC history before that plus 9 years of HC at Army. Bit old at almost 67.
• Tom Clements was a long time GB assistant during Dorsey's tenure. Rose to OC level. Also bit old at 64.... and is not in football this season(?).

Not easy to dig much deeper.

I only used it as it applied to previous HCs.  New coaches....guys that have never been an HC are harder to find.

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Not sure if in the 9 pages and counting the link to this article was posted. It's a good, fairly quick read.

The John Dorsey Dismissal: Where It Went Wrong in K.C.

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2017/06/29/kansas-city-chiefs-john-dorsey-fired-nfl-notebook

The article goes bit deeper into a couple of the issues mentioned a couple posts along the way here. For example...

Given the power each then wielded, the stock criticism of Dorsey—that while he’s incredibly respected as an evaluator, he’s more scout than manager—was validated with a level of disorganization that was noticeable before the hyper-organized Ballard departed, and obvious after he left for Indy.

As one source explained it, “It wasn’t dysfunction so much as it was decisions were being made that seemed to come out of nowhere. So that existed, but the people here weren’t aware that ownership was aware of it. … You look back now, how it worked out, and ownership was more aware that it didn’t need to be run that way.”

There were also a few flash points to prove it out over the past 18 months:

• The selection of Stanford quarterback Kevin Hogan in the fifth round of the 2016 draft. That move stunned scouts and coaches, based on the evaluation and meetings leading up to the draft. Hogan didn’t wind up making the team four months later, and started last season on the Browns’ practice squad.

So?  We have Hogan to thank/blame/whatever  for having Dorsey here.   What does that mean for PoG?  Here is one answer:

 

 

[Ghoolie]

Which house did he buy? Cowhers, or Mannings'?

[nickers]

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

So?  We have Hogan to thank/blame/whatever  for having Dorsey here.   What does that mean for PoG?  Here is one answer:

 

 

Great song.. Always loved this band..

[Tour2ma]

22 hours ago, nickers said:

Great song.. Always loved this band..

The Faith Healer off of Next... is my ultimate Alex Harvey track. I love it... Otherwise the LP is uneven, but has more highs than lows. All the highs, including The Faith Healer and GangBang, were written by Harvey and McKenna.

Tomorrow Belongs to Me is the other LP I have by them... nowhere near as good... only one Havery/McKenna collaboration.

[Ghoolie]

On 12/12/2017 at 11:59 AM, hoorta said:

Year  3, too early to tell but what's your expectations for the Browns? I had us at 4 wins this year, and border line playoffs next. MHO is 2017 = Epic Fail, who knows 2018? But it better be at least 8 wins. Teams have gone from dumpster fires to the  Super Bowl in that time frame. 

Regarding the Bengals, hmmmm. Maybe. Mikey does like to stick it to the Browns. But Mike's daughter Katie Blackburn is their GM in training when Brown passes on. Sashi would just be their Cap guy, he'd never get roster control in Cincy.

I  called it 2 wins, +/-  1. The Steeler will most likely kick the schidt out of New England and wrap up the home field advantage, The Steelers won't play anyone and the Browns best chance to win will be playing the Steelers 4th stringer and Duquesne Tamburitzan musicians.

Total poosy team. Poosy fans.

[hoorta]

12 minutes ago, Ghoolie said:

I  called it 2 wins, +/-  1. The Steeler will most likely kick the schidt out of New England and wrap up the home field advantage, The Steelers won't play anyone and the Browns best chance to win will be playing the Steelers 4th stringer and Duquesne Tamburitzan musicians.

Total poosy team. Poosy fans.

We'll see if Hue jumps in the Lake. But he said 1-15, he didn't say anything about 0-16. Regarding the Steelers- yeah, they can have Fan Appreciation Day- let a few fans suit up for a play or two. I honestly believe the Steelers could play their backups and still beat the Browns. Ravens will kill the Browns Sunday. BTW, ESPN is now giving the Browns a 99% probability of landing the first overall pick. 

[The Cysko Kid]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

We'll see if Hue jumps in the Lake. But he said 1-15, he didn't say anything about 0-16. Regarding the Steelers- yeah, they can have Fan Appreciation Day- let a few fans suit up for a play or two. I honestly believe the Steelers could play their backups and still beat the Browns. Ravens will kill the Browns Sunday. BTW, ESPN is now giving the Browns a 99% probability of landing the first overall pick. 

How many times in NFL history has the same team had consecutive #1 picks? Anyone know? Gipper? What's the longest streak of consecutive #1's?

[hoorta]

7 minutes ago, The Cysko Kid said:

How many times in NFL history has the same team had consecutive #1 picks? Anyone know? Gipper? What's the longest streak of consecutive #1's?

Off the top of my head da Browns- at least once. '99 Tim Couch, '00 Courtney Brown. I think there were others.  Plus it's happened the Redskins had the #2 & #3 in one year.

OK I did research it, (thanks, Wiki) the Yuckaneers of the '70s accomplished the same feat, '76, '77.  Ancient history Cardinals '39, '40. More recently, Da Bungles of ''94 & '95 ( Dan Wilkinson and Ki-Jana Carter)  the Browns will be the only team to have accomplished that level of suckitude twice. 

[nickers]

4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

The Faith Healer off of Next... is my ultimate Alex Harvey track. I love it... Otherwise the LP is uneven, but has more highs than lows. All the highs, including The Faith Healer and GangBang, were written by Harvey and McKenna.

Tomorrow Belongs to Me is the other LP I have by them... nowhere near as good... only one Havery/McKenna collaboration.

McKenna is an awesome drummer too.. I have heard him with other bands and he's blended right in.. I love midnight moses too.. Fun guitar parts in that song....

[The Cysko Kid]

30 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Off the top of my head da Browns- at least once. '99 Tim Couch, '00 Courtney Brown. I think there were others.  Plus it's happened the Redskins had the #2 & #3 in one year.

OK I did research it, (thanks, Wiki) the Yuckaneers of the '70s accomplished the same feat, '76, '77.  Ancient history Cardinals '39, '40. More recently, Da Bungles of ''94 & '95 ( Dan Wilkinson and Ki-Jana Carter)  the Browns will be the only team to have accomplished that level of suckitude twice. 

We should go for three. Browns have made history before we should do it again 

[Tacosman]

I dont see sashi getting another high level job.  His name is not one that is well thought of right now in many circles.  If you just want a guy to come in and trade down, you can find anyone to do that and not take the pr hit.....

[darren15]

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns new GM John Dorsey didn't hold back on his assessment of the previous regime, one that was 1-27 when Sashi Brown was fired last week.

"You know what? You've got to get a guy like that (Hue Jackson) players,'' Dorsey told the "Really Big Show'' with Aaron Goldhammer on WKNR 850, the home of the Browns today. "And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.''

It was a strong condemnation of the analytics-based front office, one that didn't have an experienced evaluator on the executive team.

"As Bill Parcells would always say, 'you are your record' and you know what? There it is, so that's the truth-teller in this thing,'' said Dorsey. "And I'm going to do my darnedest to get Hue (Jackson) players.

"And that's all I can ask for, and that's all I'm going to do. I like the man.''

Dorsey also refused to paint himself in a corner and guarantee that Jackson will be back in 2018.  

"I live in the present and I build for the future,'' he said. "Right now the sun's out, the tarps are coming out, we're practicing outside, we're getting ready to play the Baltimore Ravens and that's my sole focus.  And then it's also getting familiar with the whole layout and the organizational structure.''

[The Gipper]

17 hours ago, Ghoolie said:

 

Total poosy team. Poosy fans.

Steelers, yes.   And count yourself amongst the latter.

[Tour2ma]

16 hours ago, The Cysko Kid said:

How many times in NFL history has the same team had consecutive #1 picks? Anyone know? Gipper? What's the longest streak of consecutive #1's?

Looks like 6 times unless I missed one... and two is the longest.

1. Browns '99 and 2000
2. Bengals '94 and '95
3. Bucs '86 and '87
4. Bucs '76 and '77
5. CHI Cardinals '39 and '40
6. Eagles '36 and '37

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/alltimeno1

 

 

[The Gipper]

16 hours ago, The Cysko Kid said:

How many times in NFL history has the same team had consecutive #1 picks? Anyone know? Gipper? What's the longest streak of consecutive #1's?

They do have this thing called Google in which you can look stuff up.

Nevertheless, here is your answer:

1936 and 1937  Eagles, Jay Berwanger and Sam Francis

1939 and 1940 Cardinals Ki Aldrich and George Cafego

1976 and 1977 Buccaneers  Leroy Selmon and Ricky Bell

1986 and 1987 Buccaneers Bo Jackson and Vinny Testaverde

1994 and 1995  Bengals Dan Wilkinson and Kijana Carter.

1999 and 2000 Cleveland Browns Tim Couch and Courtney Brown

[Tour2ma]

14 hours ago, Tacosman said:

I dont see sashi getting another high level job.  His name is not one that is well thought of right now in many circles.  If you just want a guy to come in and trade down, you can find anyone to do that and not take the pr hit.....

1. Not "well thought of" in "many", means he is well thought of by some.
2. How many "circles" are you in?

58 minutes ago, darren15 said:

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns new GM John Dorsey didn't hold back on his assessment of the previous regime, one that was 1-27 when Sashi Brown was fired last week.

"You know what? You've got to get a guy like that (Hue Jackson) players,'' Dorsey told the "Really Big Show'' with Aaron Goldhammer on WKNR 850, the home of the Browns today. "And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.''

It was a strong condemnation of the analytics-based front office, one that didn't have an experienced evaluator on the executive team.

"As Bill Parcells would always say, 'you are your record' and you know what? There it is, so that's the truth-teller in this thing,'' said Dorsey. "And I'm going to do my darnedest to get Hue (Jackson) players.

"And that's all I can ask for, and that's all I'm going to do. I like the man.''

Dorsey also refused to paint himself in a corner and guarantee that Jackson will be back in 2018.  

"I live in the present and I build for the future,'' he said. "Right now the sun's out, the tarps are coming out, we're practicing outside, we're getting ready to play the Baltimore Ravens and that's my sole focus.  And then it's also getting familiar with the whole layout and the organizational structure.''

O-H....

F-U-C-K...

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, darren15 said:

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns new GM John Dorsey didn't hold back on his assessment of the previous regime, one that was 1-27 when Sashi Brown was fired last week.

"You know what? You've got to get a guy like that (Hue Jackson) players,'' Dorsey told the "Really Big Show'' with Aaron Goldhammer on WKNR 850, the home of the Browns today. "And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.''

It was a strong condemnation of the analytics-based front office, one that didn't have an experienced evaluator on the executive team.

"As Bill Parcells would always say, 'you are your record' and you know what? There it is, so that's the truth-teller in this thing,'' said Dorsey. "And I'm going to do my darnedest to get Hue (Jackson) players.

"And that's all I can ask for, and that's all I'm going to do. I like the man.''

Dorsey also refused to paint himself in a corner and guarantee that Jackson will be back in 2018.  

"I live in the present and I build for the future,'' he said. "Right now the sun's out, the tarps are coming out, we're practicing outside, we're getting ready to play the Baltimore Ravens and that's my sole focus.  And then it's also getting familiar with the whole layout and the organizational structure.''

Actually....he was more critical of the Ray Famer regime than the Sachi regime.   He said he has no clue why a team would pick someone #8 overall (Justin Gilbert) when they didn't even go to scout him...or talk to him...and learn that he was completely blase about playing football.