From nobody to the top of the first round of the draft - Josh Allen

[calfoxwc]

I did. Your own graph refers to "percentages". Do you know what a percentage is?

A calculation, Toursise. You know, NUMBERS? Yo, the graph catagories labels are referring to numbers.

Stats. eegad. Go get some caffiene.

every time I say how bad rosen is, you just knee jerk and rant about how you hate Allen.

"yawn". The Browns will pick Darnold or Allen with their first pick. Nobody's "experts" are experts.

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

I did. Your own graph refers to "percentages". Do you know what a percentage is?

A calculation, Toursise. You know, NUMBERS? Yo, the graph catagories labels are referring to numbers.

Stats. eegad. Go get some caffiene.

every time I say how bad rosen is, you just knee jerk and rant about how you hate Allen.

"yawn". The Browns will pick Darnold or Allen with their first pick. Nobody's "experts" are experts.

Please Cal, we don't "hate" Allen, he's a pretty likeable guy. Certainly not even close to you calling Rosen names because you don't like him. Nothing personal about Allen, just a bunch of us guys think he's far too questionable a prospect to risk a top five pick on.

[LogicIsForSquares]

Between all of the different threads, I can't wait for draft day so we can get all of the circle jerking and feuding over with. If it is Allen, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, or Jackson, I will still cheer for them because they are the Browns' QB. 

[SD_Tom]

 

 

2 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

I did. Your own graph refers to "percentages". Do you know what a percentage is?

A calculation, Toursise. You know, NUMBERS? Yo, the graph catagories labels are referring to numbers.

Stats. eegad. Go get some caffiene.

every time I say how bad rosen is, you just knee jerk and rant about how you hate Allen.

"yawn". The Browns will pick Darnold or Allen with their first pick. Nobody's "experts" are experts.

No one can objectively look at their numbers and say Rosen sucks. You can have concerns over his concussions and his shoulder etc,  but his production and film doesn't show a qb that sucks,  or is a bum. 

You can also objectively look at Allen and be worried about his lack of accuracy and production.  Worry about the transition to the NFL... Etc. 

There's a difference between looking at the numbers and having concerns and just hating someone out of spite. 

 

 

[calfoxwc]

7 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Please Cal, we don't "hate" Allen, he's a pretty likeable guy. Certainly not even close to you calling Rosen names because you don't like him. Nothing personal about Allen, just a bunch of us guys think he's far too questionable a prospect to risk a top five pick on.

I'm good with that, it's understandable. Wentz did have those high completion percentages at N. Dakota, but it was the "small school - small competition" thing.

But he didn't play with a star-studded cast, either. I don't see Allen as the same level as Wentz, who I freaking really wanted in the draft... but he has all the tools to be every bit as good with some coaching and experience. "Greater risk, greater reward" ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carson_Wentz

Early years. Born in Raleigh, North Carolina, Wentz moved to North Dakota with his family at the age of three. He played quarterback and defensive back for the football team at Century High School in Bismarck, and also played basketball and baseball for the Patriots.

Passing yards‎: ‎7,078

Completion percentage‎: ‎61.5

Passer rating‎: ‎88.8

[calfoxwc]

1 minute ago, SD_Tom said:

 

 

No one can objectively look at their numbers and say Rosen sucks. You can have concerns over his concussions and his shoulder etc,  but his production and film doesn't show a qb that sucks,  or is a bum. 

You can also objectively look at Allen and be worried about his lack of accuracy and production.  Worry about the transition to the NFL... Etc. 

There's a difference between looking at the numbers and having concerns and just hating someone out of spite. 

 

 

Dude - I joke around in kind, but there is no spite. I don't hate rosen - he isn't my kind of person to lead a football team. If you read up on what Leaf says about himself - and look at rosen, you see the same possibilities of failure. I've watched bigtime star football players talk about how pro players play with pain, get beaten up, etc etc etc.... and they wonder if rosen loves the game, or just wants to play it for the money and fame. They ask what happens, when it's cold, and snowing, and he gets some hits on him... if he will really want to fight to stay on the field etc.

   Drafting isn't all about numbers - or Gilbert would have been a star all pro cb. If football is 80% emotional a game, then objectivity goes out the window to a point, and you have to look at the subjective measurements. That is where each team has to figure out if a player is a fit. If you listen to Kosar talk about all his injuries - so many bones broken, does this college qb have the incredible courage and toughness to hang in there for a career? Allen, Mayfield, Darnold certainly do. Probably Rudolph.

   It's the intangibles - and going with rosen SOLELY over the objective stats doesn't work with a LOT of the NFL, not just me and some others on the board.

  Arguing objective vs subjective, with both being legitimately at play, is getting boring like too much ping pong volley.

[SD_Tom]

52 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Dude - I joke around in kind, but there is no spite. I don't hate rosen - he isn't my kind of person to lead a football team. If you read up on what Leaf says about himself - and look at rosen, you see the same possibilities of failure. I've watched bigtime star football players talk about how pro players play with pain, get beaten up, etc etc etc.... and they wonder if rosen loves the game, or just wants to play it for the money and fame. They ask what happens, when it's cold, and snowing, and he gets some hits on him... if he will really want to fight to stay on the field etc.

   Drafting isn't all about numbers - or Gilbert would have been a star all pro cb. If football is 80% emotional a game, then objectivity goes out the window to a point, and you have to look at the subjective measurements. That is where each team has to figure out if a player is a fit. If you listen to Kosar talk about all his injuries - so many bones broken, does this college qb have the incredible courage and toughness to hang in there for a career? Allen, Mayfield, Darnold certainly do. Probably Rudolph.

   It's the intangibles - and going with rosen SOLELY over the objective stats doesn't work with a LOT of the NFL, not just me and some others on the board.

  Arguing objective vs subjective, with both being legitimately at play, is getting boring like too much ping pong volley.

I agree it's not just about numbers,  or else mayfield would be the clear #1. 

I think Rosen has several intangibles.  Mainly the ability to run an NFL style offense,  playing under center,  make tough throws,  being in the spotlight,  and being able to understand the playbook and command the offense.  

I think Rosen had far more responsibility and had to carry a team more than anyone else. That shouldn't be overlooked. 

Fwiw Leaf thinks he's the best qb in this class. 

 

[calfoxwc]

I think he doesn't have those intangibles. Plenty of star college players fold in the pros. On the move, rosen's ability to throw accurately fell to about 42%. His durability is a serious concern, his mobility not so much, Darnold played with mostly underclassmen - rosen played with mostly seniors. That makes a hell of a huge advantage to be successful. It's tough to know about who had more responsibility - and he hardly carried a team on his shoulders more than Darnold or Allen - they played with underclassmen.

Playing with seniors is huge. His left tackle will go in the first round. His center will go in the draft - 5th roundish maybe? His HC was

the same for his years in college, and his head coach was an ex-head coach of two different NFL teams.

rosen has had the camps, the training they could buy for him, and an exNFL hc coaching him. Sure, he's the best pocket passer.

That doesn't mean diddley squat to me as far as total package about him. Rosen ADMITTED he had a problem with women not understanding him..."who didn't know him"....

that isn't good right there. But it's a far smaller point than who he is about whining about football and college. etc etc etc etc.

Leaf might think he's the best pocket passer, but not the best human being to have as the face of your franchise. That is the latter point I've been making. If the head isn't screwed on right, it doesn't matter that a college qb was successful in college, especially when he had the senior talent at a big name school around him, and an EX NFL hc.

 

 

[calfoxwc]

Furthermore - the only two times rosen had to play a team away game, in cold climates late in OCT/NOV...

he lost 44-23 to Washington, and  48017 in Utah.

vs Washington, rosen was 12 of 21 for only 91 yards, 4 sacks, 1 TD. He had 8 rushing attempts, for -19 yards net.

vs Utah, he didn't play, had a concussion.

Drafting rosen when he had to play up north and miserably failed for the Browns makes no sense at all.

[Tour2ma]

5 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

I did. Your own graph refers to "percentages". Do you know what a percentage is?

A calculation, Toursise. You know, NUMBERS? Yo, the graph catagories labels are referring to numbers.

Stats. eegad. Go get some caffiene.

every time I say how bad rosen is, you just knee jerk and rant about how you hate Allen.

"yawn". The Browns will pick Darnold or Allen with their first pick. Nobody's "experts" are experts.

So now the guy who said "stats" is saying, "Stats? Who said stats? I didn't say 'stats'... but if I had said stats, I would have meant 'numbers'... or something."

Adjusted Completion Percentage and Big-Time Throw Percentage... that's two... of 10. Fixate much?

Every other plotted point is a "grade"... as in watched every snap... graded every play... did the math. A "grade" is not a "stat".

Of the 10 criteria your boy is above average, the average for the entire draft class, in three: Big-time Throw %, Intermed Grade and Rushing Grade.

And he is damn near on the center in two: Adj Compl % and Blitz Grade. The latter says he folds like the proverbial cheap suit.

 

Pivot and project and pretend... the cal way.

[The Cysko Kid]

I don't know. I'm kind of feeling we're going to take Josh Allen. 

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, The Cysko Kid said:

I don't know. I'm kind of feeling we're going to take Josh Allen. 

It actually makes a ton of sense.

The Browns haven't been the laughingstock of the NFL since 1999 on accident.

Drafting Allen would be help continue this trend. I've said it before - there isn't a worse combination than Allen and the Browns, for both parties involved.

If Dorsey drafts Allen, his clock is ticking to the day he's fired. 

[SD_Tom]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

Furthermore - the only two times rosen had to play a team away game, in cold climates late in OCT/NOV...

he lost 44-23 to Washington, and  48017 in Utah.

vs Washington, rosen was 12 of 21 for only 91 yards, 4 sacks, 1 TD. He had 8 rushing attempts, for -19 yards net.

vs Utah, he didn't play, had a concussion.

Drafting rosen when he had to play up north and miserably failed for the Browns makes no sense at all.

So, you're using stats in a game he got pulled with an injury and another game that he wasn't even playing in as proof he can't play in the cold? Got it. 

What makes less sense is expecting a QB who averaged 56% for 164.72 yds a game will miraculously be accurate and throw for huge yards in the pros where the windows are tighter and the game's way faster.  Wyoming winning 8 games is certainly not all because of a QB who throws just 24-25 times a game. If he was that "AMAZING" he'd be throwing 40-50 times a game and their offense would be centered around him, don't you think? Allen might have a powerful arm, but that's not nearly enough in the NFL. He's got a long way to go, and #1 picks usually aren't guys with a lot of work needed. 

You seem to gloss over the fact that UCLA defense allowed 36.8 PPG, and Wyoming allowed 17.8. Wyoming only scored 23.5 PPG and UCLA scored 32.5 PPG. The narrative of "Allen wins games and Rosen loses games" is a bunch of crap. 

Stats and full game film will never be on your side when comparing Allen to anyone. It's like taking a butter knife to a gunfight. 

[Mark O]

1 hour ago, SD_Tom said:

So, you're using stats in a game he got pulled with an injury and another game that he wasn't even playing in as proof he can't play in the cold? Got it. 

 

Stats and full game film will never be on your side when comparing Allen to anyone. It's like taking a butter knife to a gunfight. 

Snowflake only likes to use stats when they fit his argument.   He doesn't like the stats that Allen put up against the top competition that they faced because it makes his boy look bad and blames it on the rest of the team, not the guy leading that team at the most important position. 

[calfoxwc]

bs. I'm not against stats, I say to ONLY GO BY CONCRETE STATS is a bunch of hooey. That is how mistakes are made in the draft.

The intangibles are extremely important, sissy markie - even tour probably knows it.... but you ignore intangibles because the other top qb's HAVE THEM, and rosen has ..."perfect pocket passer".

 Goff was far, far and away a superior candidate compared to Goff. He loves the game, etc.

rosen is jimmy clausen - he won't have many veterans believe in him if he keeps whining after he gets his first contract.

[calfoxwc]

39 minutes ago, Mark O said:

So, you're using stats in a game he got pulled with an injury and another game that he wasn't even playing in as proof he can't play in the cold? Got it. 

wrong. I'm showing that does NOT show he can play in the cold. Maybe he had a concussion, or maybe he said he did because he was failing, and he deserves better than to struggle in a game.

  You see that completion rate?  ROSEN was 12 of 21? Guess what percentage that is. 57 percent. Well, golly gee, what in the HELL happened to the super duper perfect passer? He played in the cold, he sucked. You use stats to demean Allen, at least admit that rosen had a very bad game, the only one he played in cool/cold weather.

  When the chips were down, rosen only completed 57 % of his passes. He isn't the superhuman you completion percentage wonks think he is.

  There's some facts for ya.

[Mark O]

Rosen had a couple of sub par games where his completion percentage wasn't very good.

Allen has had an entire college career where his completion percentage isn't very good.

 

See the difference?  Probably not.  

[calfoxwc]

so the bar changes in favor of rosen every time. Rosen played with a lot of seniors. Allen did not.

Rosen played with a LT that will go in the first round. Allen did not. Allen led his underdog team to the bowl game,

and rocked it - they WON. Allen rocked the ...second half...of the senior bowl.

and, ROSEN GOT HIS HEAD COACH FIRED as his qb.... of course it isn't all on rosen...maybe, but that is how it would

be said if it was Allen.

rosen was so good his head coach was fired. LOL

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

Goff was far, far and away a superior candidate compared to Goff. 

The sound logic we've come to expect from cal. 

[hoorta]

4 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

so the bar changes in favor of rosen every time. Rosen played with a lot of seniors. Allen did not.

Rosen played with a LT that will go in the first round. Allen did not. Allen led his underdog team to the bowl game,

and rocked it - they WON. Allen rocked the ...second half...of the senior bowl.

and, ROSEN GOT HIS HEAD COACH FIRED as his qb.... of course it isn't all on rosen...maybe, but that is how it would

be said if it was Allen.

rosen was so good his head coach was fired. LOL

Maybe you saw it in another thread, maybe not. Mora got fired because he couldn't develop talent. (Bret Hundley) That Rosen was solely responsible for getting his coach fired is complete BS. 

The bar changes in favor of Rosen every time, um because he's a better prospect. Your broken record is something that can't be quantified- intangibles, which have largely been debunked.  

[calfoxwc]

well, why don't we end the repetitive ping pong biz, and we'll see how the draft goes. Darnold or Allen for the Browns, says I.

[7moses7]

Allen will be the pick 

[TexasAg1969]

1 hour ago, 7moses7 said:

Allen will be the pick 

So Brownsian.

[The Cysko Kid]

I've seen enough of Dorsey and I trust his track record enough to trust him on his #1 pick whoever it is. Unless it's Barkley. 

[Tour2ma]

I feel like I can take the day off...

[Tour2ma]

New day... time to play...

[Tour2ma]

Good tweet to leave in summary...

Jordan Zirm‏Verified account @clevezirm

as we continue to debate Josh Allen, my mind always comes back to this blurb from the excellent @BenjaminSolak

9:33 AM - 5 Apr 2018

[calfoxwc]

http://trib.com/sports/college/wyoming/football/wyoming-quarterback-josh-allen-remains-at-no-in-third-mock/article_b0f6be69-488b-5696-b43b-97504f714510.html

 

[calfoxwc]

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seahawks/report-russell-wilsons-camp-noticed-that-seahawks-went-to-scout-josh-allen/

[calfoxwc]

https://www.ohio.com/akron/sports/browns/josh-allen-continues-to-show-growth-as-browns-owner-jimmy-haslam-other-members-of-team-brass-watch-wyoming-pro-day