Jonathan Paul Manziel

[tiamat63]

Are we talking about Manziel or Hoyer (dead last in NFL with a completion % of 55.7)

 

Oh, so you think Foosball hits Barnidge on 4th and 11 on his own side of the field? Please... try to tell me that with a straight face.

 

Fact is, when you attempt fewer passes and you miss on some, its quite the detriment to the completion %. I do notice how you conveniently don't bring up

Hoyer leading the NFL in throws downfield (over 12 yards) which would further cement the Browns being a running team that drives the ball downfield on play action.

 

If this was a dink and dunk type offense, I might just buy into the completion percentage being a grand problem. Fact is, its not.

[StocktonShorts]

 

Oh, so you think Foosball hits Barnidge on 4th and 11 on his own side of the field? Please... try to tell me that with a straight face.

 

Fact is, when you attempt fewer passes and you miss on some, its quite the detriment to the completion %. I do notice how you conveniently don't bring up

Hoyer leading the NFL in throws downfield (over 12 yards) which would further cement the Browns being a running team that drives the ball downfield on play action.

 

If this was a dink and dunk type offense, I might just buy into the completion percentage being a grand problem. Fact is, its not.

Yeah, completing passes is overrated....

 

Once again this board has dove into misunderstanding that this is Hoyer vs Manziel. It is not. Its Hoyer vs. Inevitability. It's never been a "If" and always has been a "When". Hoyer starting, I agree with 1) Manziel wasn't ready preseason. It was clear and 2) You can't look the vets in the eye and tell them you're throwing away a year of their career not trying for the playoffs because you want a rookie to get his feet wet. Can't do it.

 

As long as we're in the playoffs you play Hoyer, once we're out, thats the last you see of Hoyer. It should be clear to everyone, and I assure you its clear to the Browns FO, that Hoyer isn't a Top 15 QB in this league, questionably Top 25. Without a great QB you're stuck in the middle and always look for the next one. Browns fans are so beat down with horrible QBs that the first time we see one that isn't god awful you fall in love and ignore everything he actually is, which is mediocre. Always has been, and will be. So Manziel is going to get his shot, once Hoyer throws up another dud and/or we're out of the playoff race...which will probably come around the same time.

 

The fact that Hoyer has played what everyone would consider "Great, for him" so far this year and hes still what....last in Comp % second to last in TDs 22nd in QBR....tells you all you need to know. Some of you Hoyer fans/Manziel haters around here are in extreme denial if you think Hoyer is a great QB and will lead this team in the future. He's never shown anything then what he is, at best, average.

[tiamat63]

Yeah, completing passes is overrated....

 

Once again this board has dove into misunderstanding that this is Hoyer vs Manziel. It is not. Its Hoyer vs. Inevitability. It's never been a "If" and always has been a "When". Hoyer starting, I agree with 1) Manziel wasn't ready preseason. It was clear and 2) You can't look the vets in the eye and tell them you're throwing away a year of their career not trying for the playoffs because you want a rookie to get his feet wet. Can't do it.

 

As long as we're in the playoffs you play Hoyer, once we're out, thats the last you see of Hoyer. It should be clear to everyone, and I assure you its clear to the Browns FO, that Hoyer isn't a Top 15 QB in this league, questionably Top 25. Without a great QB you're stuck in the middle and always look for the next one. Browns fans are so beat down with horrible QBs that the first time we see one that isn't god awful you fall in love and ignore everything he actually is, which is mediocre. Always has been, and will be. So Manziel is going to get his shot, once Hoyer throws up another dud and/or we're out of the playoff race...which will probably come around the same time.

 

The fact that Hoyer has played what everyone would consider "Great, for him" so far this year and hes still what....last in Comp % second to last in TDs 22nd in QBR....tells you all you need to know. Some of you Hoyer fans/Manziel haters around here are in extreme denial if you think Hoyer is a great QB and will lead this team in the future. He's never shown anything then what he is, at best, average.

It has nothing to do with believing Hoyer is a great QB. I know he isn't. However his limitations as a passer aren't as glarring as Manziels. And while yes, his completion percentage isn't great - Hoyer's turn over margin is. Which is why he is the best option currently for this team. I'm simply pointing that out. I'm well aware Manziel will eventually be starting. This is Anderson/Quinn all over again. The only difference is that our current starter had shown enough to warrant continued play. Also, it helps that he isn't legally Retarded. Anderson had the deep ball and a 10 cent brain. That was about it.

[bbedward]

 

Oh, so you think Foosball hits Barnidge on 4th and 11 on his own side of the field? Please... try to tell me that with a straight face.

 

Fact is, when you attempt fewer passes and you miss on some, its quite the detriment to the completion %. I do notice how you conveniently don't bring up

Hoyer leading the NFL in throws downfield (over 12 yards) which would further cement the Browns being a running team that drives the ball downfield on play action.

 

If this was a dink and dunk type offense, I might just buy into the completion percentage being a grand problem. Fact is, its not.

 

His accuracy was as bad as anybody this week, though.But not everybody has their day. The difference between Browns fans and every other team though, Browns fans will call for the backup QB after Hoyer's bad day (On a day where, none the less, everybody had a bad day).

 

People dawg him for the Pittsburgh performance, but I disagree with them.

[miktoxic]

Are we talking about Manziel or Hoyer (dead last in NFL with a completion % of 55.7)

 

 

 

And Brian Hoyer proved on Sunday he can't consistently do that with a wide open Jordan Cameron and Taylor Gabriel.

 

You have to make those throws. That's 14 points left off the board.

 

My argument for Manziel is that if Hoyer does this again against Tampa & Oakland, you have to go with Manziel.

 

Hoyer has 0 mobility so at least Manziel will be able to extend plays

 

we all know who you are. you are exactly who we thought you were.

 

couple of jeckyll and hyde dick lickers.

 

go somewhere else please.

[Clevfan4life]

 

You're already wrong seeing has how he's not 5'9 but rather 5'11 3/4 and weighs 210 not 195.

 

A suspect mind? Who the fuck are you, Dr. Phil?

 

Below average arm? It's probably better than Hoyer's in all honesty. The underthrow to Gabriel was living prooof Hoyer doesn't have a great arm.

 

He had a better preseason than Hoyer you genius.

 

I'm saying if Hoyer shits the bed vs. Tampa and Oakland, you go with Manziel to see what he can do

 

I'm not disagreeing that if the season get's blown in the next few games then fuck it why not see where johnny's at. However, you've been watching the same games we have so you know full well that Hoyer has been throwing a "great" deep ball over the top all season long. He put up a duck while floating to his left, not indicative of his ability to throw downfield. When he's in the pocket and steps into his throws he, like all other QB's in the NFL, can throw the deep ball. Is he a freak that can be scampering to his left and throw 60 yds downfield off his right foot? no, neither is 99% of the league. Manziel didn't show me "anything" in preseason that his arm is anybetter than Hoyers...none whatsoever. He might be able to throw better moving to his left cause he's more athletic than Hoyer...but in the pocket his arm is no better than Hoyers "at all".

[BrownsFanatic]

Put manziel in. Hoyer has been sucking for most of the years. We beat pitt by grounding and pounding them into the ground, manziel fits what we have on the 1st team offense. Ben tate, terrance west, crowell, couple that with the play making abilities of johnny manziel. So what if manziel fucks up a bit? Better than Hoyer playing like crap vs the jagwires

[hoorta]

I will say there Manziel probably would have had 50+ yards rushing against Jacksonville including some of those bootlegs where Hoyer just stood there.

 

That's his forte' and the extra dimension he offers.

 

 

Sure, run for 50+, and straight to RG Knee IR. Are you that dense that those roll outs are designed to create passing lanes?

 

This is worst case scenario. Hoyer has one bad game and we're talking JFF again. This team just cannot hang on to any continuity. Unfortunately it might be Hoyer and his fucking agents fault...which is just mystifying to me. Fuck I'm so irritated about this. Are we really gonna start this QB roulette now? We're staring a season implosion right in the face.

 

Rumors denied by just about everyone. the original Bleacher Report was debunked as a steaming pile of crap reporting.

 

Manziel just offers what Hoyer doesn't....

 

The ability to get outside of the pocket and make plays with his feet.

 

If the offensive line is going to play good, then go with Hoyer.

 

If the offensive line is going to suck dicks, you go with Manziel so he can avoid the pressure.

 

LOL, how many plays do Brady or Peyton Manning make with their feet? I'd bet Hoyer is more mobile than half of the starting qbs in the NFL. He's plenty mobile enough.

[WalterWhite]

 

Sure, run for 50+, and straight to RG Knee IR. Are you that dense that those roll outs are designed to create passing lanes?

 

 

Rumors denied by just about everyone. the original Bleacher Report was debunked as a steaming pile of crap reporting.

 

 

LOL, how many plays do Brady or Peyton Manning make with their feet? I'd bet Hoyer is more mobile than half of the starting qbs in the NFL. He's plenty mobile enough.

 

1. Not all running QB's are going to get injured (Wilson, Keapernick) and not all pocket passers are safe (Sam Bradford)

 

2. Brady and Manning don't have to make plays with their feet, they are 2 of the greatest passers in the history of the game. Hoyer is not.

 

3. I am giving Hoyer the benefit of the doubt but if he can't perform against Oakland and Tampa, you have to see what Manziel can do

[hoorta]

 

1. Not all running QB's are going to get injured (Wilson, Keapernick) and not all pocket passers are safe (Sam Bradford)

 

2. Brady and Manning don't have to make plays with their feet, they are 2 of the greatest passers in the history of the game. Hoyer is not.

 

3. I am giving Hoyer the benefit of the doubt but if he can't perform against Oakland and Tampa, you have to see what Manziel can do

 

In regards to #3, I'm with you. a 42% completion rate won't get it done in the NFL. But- I'd be hesitant to toss Manziel in there for his first game on Thursday night, on the road against the Bengals.

[gumby73]

More Drama, Coaching decisions, A troubling revised OL and a lazy D.. What is JF going to do but run for his life.. Let Hoyer decide his own contract worth.. Till JF can learn to get the ball out on time and get the team out of a huddle on time we have to leave it to the coaches.. Myself I am more concerned about OL and D!!

[TexasAg1969]

 

Sumlin's offense could be run by a guy off the street.

 

You mean the team that has just scored progressively 35, 31, 20 and 0 points in their last 4 SEC West games?

 

Yeah, anyone could have won that Heisman.

[Westside Steve]

I tend to agree. It's not so much the difference in arm strength but the question mark is on accuracy. I would bet that if Johnny were head and shoulders above Hoyer in that department he would have started the season.

Running for your life is a lot different than preset scrambling plays.

We were able to cover up for Brian Hoyer when the run game was great.

I wouldn't rush Johnny into the game, rather give Hoyer the chance to straighten out whatever accuracy problems if possible. I mean we have seen him throw some nice passes right? The downside is that we have seen some real turds missing wide open guys with time to throw.

 

bottom line, at least for the time being, since we have seen the Browns readjust in the past there may still be a chance. But I hate these trap games. Any given Sunday.

WSS

 

 

PS I'll get Brian's agent is shitting his pants right about now.

[Tour2ma]

So Hoyer is starting, on a pretty short leash.

 

I hope Brian plays well (and I expect him to), but if he has a bad first half that stadium is going to go manziel-manic and I wouldn't be surprised to see the change at the half, Pettine would almost have to.

Agree... as I said elsewhere if OAK game starts out as an extention of the JAX game, make the change.

 

Why not? Let's get that Manziel "package" going... It never hurt us in the 2 games we actually used it.

Other thing it did not do? Help...

 

I will say there Manziel probably would have had 50+ yards rushing against Jacksonville including some of those bootlegs where Hoyer just stood there.

 

That's his forte' and the extra dimension he offers.

Mobility... yup, that check goes firmly in the JM column, but BH has more than he showed Sunday. AS does arm strength and every other physical attribute, yet JM has sat.

 

Should tell you something...

[Tour2ma]

Since you insist on staying, sacrificing yourself for us, I will attempt to make it worth your while...

 

Manziel comes in for one drive and does some Manziel-ian things and leads the team to a energy injecting score.....you can't go back to Hoyer. Thats the problem. That would force their hand, and they don't want to be in that position.

Why would they, our coaches I presume, be afraid of the positive scenario you present?

[Tour2ma]

Yeah, completing passes is overrated....

 

Once again this board has dove into misunderstanding that this is Hoyer vs Manziel. It is not. Its Hoyer vs. Inevitability. It's never been a "If" and always has been a "When". Hoyer starting, I agree with 1) Manziel wasn't ready preseason. It was clear and 2) You can't look the vets in the eye and tell them you're throwing away a year of their career not trying for the playoffs because you want a rookie to get his feet wet. Can't do it.

 

As long as we're in the playoffs you play Hoyer, once we're out, thats the last you see of Hoyer. It should be clear to everyone, and I assure you its clear to the Browns FO, that Hoyer isn't a Top 15 QB in this league, questionably Top 25. Without a great QB you're stuck in the middle and always look for the next one. Browns fans are so beat down with horrible QBs that the first time we see one that isn't god awful you fall in love and ignore everything he actually is, which is mediocre. Always has been, and will be. So Manziel is going to get his shot, once Hoyer throws up another dud and/or we're out of the playoff race...which will probably come around the same time.

 

The fact that Hoyer has played what everyone would consider "Great, for him" so far this year and hes still what....last in Comp % second to last in TDs 22nd in QBR....tells you all you need to know. Some of you Hoyer fans/Manziel haters around here are in extreme denial if you think Hoyer is a great QB and will lead this team in the future. He's never shown anything then what he is, at best, average.

Thanks for coming back to remind us all that this was your argument from Day 1...

 

Your job is done now... you may leave...

 

But before you go... please address this amended version of the question I posed above:

 

Why is our staff afraid of "inevitability"?

[Tour2ma]

You mean the team that has just scored progressively 35, 31, 20 and 0 points in their last 4 SEC West games?

 

Yeah, anyone could have won that Heisman.

Wasn't it you that told us how Sumlin chucked his most of his system while JM was there, because it was cramping JM's style?

[Demoted]

This is the beginning of the end for Pettine. The owner is trying to force Manziel in. Bye Pettine, thanks for giving the Jags a first win.

[DownSouthKC]

All I'm saying is that these roll outs that leave Hoter wide the fuck open are perfect for Manziel who can make things happen when Gabriel or whoever isn't open.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing play calling in 60/40 run/pass and half of those pass plays being roll outs with Manziel at the helm.

 

I'm also not upset about Hoyer being our QB. People jumped my shit last week vs Pitt because I said he played great but definitely had room for improvement including on some of his completions. Now everyone is ganging up on him with some knee jerk reactions.

[hoorta]

This is the beginning of the end for Pettine. The owner is trying to force Manziel in. Bye Pettine, thanks for giving the Jags a first win.

 

Excuse me, how in the hell would you know that? FYI, every team has an off game, including the Patriots- Tom Brady was washed up after the Chiefs smoked them 41-14. Or your forget the media frenzy about that one?

 

Should the Steelers have benched Rothlisberger after they lost to the Bucs?

 

Knew it, knew it, knew it. One bad game and the boo-birds would throw Hoyer under the bus and bury him.

[StocktonShorts]

 

Excuse me, how in the hell would you know that? FYI, every team has an off game, including the Patriots- Tom Brady was washed up after the Chiefs smoked them 41-14. Or your forget the media frenzy about that one?

 

Should the Steelers have benched Rothlisberger after they lost to the Bucs?

 

Knew it, knew it, knew it. One bad game and the boo-birds would throw Hoyer under the bus and bury him.

Those QBs have a substantially higher credit rating, and they've earned it.

 

Once Hoyer starts winning Super Bowls, he'll be allowed to have horrible games and not have to worry, but at long as he's shown nothing but very average, at best, QB play he's not going to get the benefit of the doubt.

 

Charlie Whitehurst numbers smoke Hoyers, and people in Tennessee wish Whitehurst never touched a football again. In your minds you keep comparing Hoyer to QB of Browns past, which is an ugly bunch, but if you compare him to whats around the NFL, he is right in the group with all the other guys people think shouldn't be a starter.

[tiamat63]

All I'm saying is that these roll outs that leave Hoter wide the fuck open are perfect for Manziel who can make things happen when Gabriel or whoever isn't open.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing play calling in 60/40 run/pass and half of those pass plays being roll outs with Manziel at the helm.

 

I'm also not upset about Hoyer being our QB. People jumped my shit last week vs Pitt because I said he played great but definitely had room for improvement including on some of his completions. Now everyone is ganging up on him with some knee jerk reactions.

 

Those naked bootlegs are meant to set up passing lanes, not have huge runs from your QB. Even then, JM wouldn't be getting large gains from them. 5 yards, maybe. The closing speed of most CB's and LB's will shock you.

[tiamat63]

Charlie Whitehurst numbers smoke Hoyers, and people in Tennessee wish Whitehurst never touched a football again. In your minds you keep comparing Hoyer to QB of Browns past, which is an ugly bunch, but if you compare him to whats around the NFL, he is right in the group with all the other guys people think shouldn't be a starter.

 

Is that so? Well the coaching staff believed Hoyer was our starter and still is. So, the rest of the thinking minds be damned. I'd also like for you to point out the average turnover margin of said QB's that "shouldn't be starting".

I'd be willing to bet Hoyer has them beat. Taking care of the football speaks volumes. I don't think Manziel is ready for that yet.

[DownSouthKC]

The writing has been on the wall since they drafted Manziel. A lot of fans got a chubby when the team was 3-2, thinking 11-5 was a reality, but this team is what it is. What has always scared me is the simple fact that guys who get paid a lot of money to evaluate players thought, and maybe still think, Johnny Manziel is the answer. I hope I'm wrong and the 5'9" guy that weighs 195 with a suspect mind and average arm is the next Doug Flutie but if I am, after that steaming pile of a pre-season, he would've already been given the keys to the car.

If preseasons tell you anything then Brandon Weeden and Blake Borltes are Manning and Brady

[hoorta]

Those QBs have a substantially higher credit rating, and they've earned it.

 

Once Hoyer starts winning Super Bowls, he'll be allowed to have horrible games and not have to worry, but at long as he's shown nothing but very average, at best, QB play he's not going to get the benefit of the doubt.

 

Charlie Whitehurst numbers smoke Hoyers, and people in Tennessee wish Whitehurst never touched a football again. In your minds you keep comparing Hoyer to QB of Browns past, which is an ugly bunch, but if you compare him to whats around the NFL, he is right in the group with all the other guys people think shouldn't be a starter.

 

Except from the coaching staff, which is all that matters. First off, "starting" qbs far worse than Hoyer have had far worse games- remember that Browns qb from a few years back that posted a perfect zero qbr? Didn't lose their starting gig after one stinker. And not just for the Browns either, if that's what you're thinking.

 

Also your logic is flawed by the assumption Manziel is going to come in and do way better. If Pettine thought that was the case, JFF would already be starting. He's not getting paid to lose games.

[hoorta]

This is the beginning of the end for Pettine. The owner is trying to force Manziel in. Bye Pettine, thanks for giving the Jags a first win.

 

This is what I didn't agree with. Didn't take much to get the Hoyer Hater Fan Club in full Boo Flat Chorus.

[DownSouthKC]

 

Those naked bootlegs are meant to set up passing lanes, not have huge runs from your QB. Even then, JM wouldn't be getting large gains from them. 5 yards, maybe. The closing speed of most CB's and LB's will shock you.

Uhhh okay. Thanks for that but I never said what you are assuming I meant. I realize the closing speed of NFL defenses. I realize the mobility of Johnny Manziel just like defenses are going to realize it. By defenses having to be cognizant of the run by the QB it also opens up passing lanes ... or defenses are going to have to respect the rollout on actual run plays too which will suck the backside DE and OLB from the play and allow Tate and co. more cutback lanes. Tate loves the cut back and the holes will be there more often than currently because of it especially on the zone read type of running game.

 

It's a lot like how Josh Gordon is going to open up passing lanes just by being out there. Respecting the run from Manziel opens up the run and the pass if used correctly ... Of course, they have to respect the pass too and we won't know that until we see it.

 

Edit: I like Hoyer I think he could be a starter but he has definitely struggled at times in the wind and losses and the running game has helped bail him out. I don't want them to run a couple series with Manziel though. Either roll with Hoyer and let him be the dude this year or roll with Manziel and let him be the dude against Oak and TB who have awful defenses to get confidence. Having Hoyer look over his shoulder isn't going to make him better. It'll make him press if the first 3 possessions don't go well Sunday.

[DownSouthKC]

Also your logic is flawed by the assumption Manziel is going to come in and do way better. If Pettine thought that was the case, JFF would already be starting. He's not getting paid to lose games.

Eh not necessarily. I mean you very well could be right.

 

Pettine could also be thinking that Hoyer knows the playbook better so the offense can be more vast.

 

He might think Manziel is better but the team has been winning and playing well and why change it up while it's working

 

He may think Manziel sucks balls

[Demoted]

This is what I didn't agree with. Didn't take much to get the Hoyer Hater Fan Club in full Boo Flat Chorus.

Are you really that fucking stupid? Don't answer b.c you just are. Someone that wants Hoyer to start you are calling a hater. What a fucking idiot.

[StocktonShorts]

 

Except from the coaching staff, which is all that matters. First off, "starting" qbs far worse than Hoyer have had far worse games- remember that Browns qb from a few years back that posted a perfect zero qbr? Didn't lose their starting gig after one stinker. And not just for the Browns either, if that's what you're thinking.

 

Also your logic is flawed by the assumption Manziel is going to come in and do way better. If Pettine thought that was the case, JFF would already be starting. He's not getting paid to lose games.

Once again you're comparing Hoyer to our previous awful QBs, and while he might be more steady then they were (who the majority are out of the league and the rest are backups, except Colt getting his start Monday) you're not comparing him to winning QBs. If you compare Hoyers numbers to the average playoff winning QB, he's awful. Next to the Browns previous QBs, he's good.

 

If you're desire for this team to just became an ok team and not finish with an embarrassing record every year, Brians your guy. I mean reading plenty of posts around it sounds like mediocrity is all you expect from this franchise and want anyone that can get them there. I don't think that way. I want a contender, a team that becomes a constant contender and that starts at QB. If you don't have the QB you can't get there. Brians not the QB. He's never once showed he's a great QB, hes only showed he can do his best not to lose you a game. The fans eat it up, and everytime we win its "HOYER IS A WINNER!!!" and whenever we lose it becomes "Oh well its a team loss" when really its much more the other way around. I'm looking to BUILD something here, not just patchwork a 6th seed playoff team that just good enough to get trounced in the first round, or a constant 8-8 team. Thats what Hoyer gives you a chance for, and that chance is even slim. Nothing more.

 

So now that I know Hoyer isn't the guy, now I want to know if Manziel is the guy. He might suck, you all could be right about that. But until he gets a shot we won't know. I know what Hoyer is, he's a backup, now I need to see what Manziel is. If Manziels not the guy then we need someone else.

 

I agree with Hoyer starting the season, Manziel wasn't ready, and I agree if we can stay in playoff contention Hoyer gives us the best shot. However we just lost to the Jags. Playoff teams don't lose that game. Chances of making playoffs just got a lot slimmer and with another game like that they'll be practically zero. The minute that happens Hoyer needs to go figure out what other team will have him (and pay that 13 Mil a year he's asking for, which will be interesting to see who would bite at that) and we need to develop Johnny to see if he could be the guy.