CB problems

[Icecube]

No one seems to be talking about how weak CB play has been. Ward and Greedy haven't been playing as advertised. We thought when they came back, D would be improved. 

[ballpeen]

Hospital Ward  hasn't even been close to being good.  When are those idiots going to start looking for the ball?

 

The object of the position is to break up passes, not tackle the guy after he catches the ball.

[Ibleedbrown]

Not sure l would call it weak play, but rather inconsistent play. The CBs have looked good at times. 

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

Inexperience. We could’ve used Haden, especially to mentor Ward.

[jiggins7919]

31 minutes ago, Ibleedbrown said:

Not sure l would call it weak play, but rather inconsistent play. The CBs have looked good at times. 

Inconsistent is the best way to put it. Ward has looked incredible at times, but his play on the deep ball is concerning. He's way ahead of Greedy on that front, but Ward panics EVERY time and grabs the WR's arm. He's gotten away with it a few times, but he's also been called for penalties. The other problem with Ward are the lack of big plays. It's VERY difficult to knock someone for this, but star players make star caliber plays. When was the past time he got a pick? A pick-6? A forced fumble? Greedy has definitely flashed, but it's pretty obvious that he's green. Our defense basically suffers from a perpetual lack of big plays. Terrence Mitchell gets the one interception, and our offense shits the bed. It's so typical. I think that was the drive where Baker threw deep to Landry but he couldn't hold on to it. Was it catchable? Sure looked like it. 

Anyway, there's some reason for hope in the future, but right now it's all about the young bucks taking their lumps and learning. I wouldn't be surprised if Andy Dalton torched our secondary Sunday because we'll have no pass rush. 

[SdBacker80]

Greedy was an on field spectator all game and then did us all a favor by taking himself out.

Carrie had his worst game as a Brown.

Ward made a few nice plays last season playing in zone he’s given up a few plays in man this year.  He’s one of the guys on our team that seems to have a good football IQ.  He’s not a tackler not a sturdy guy either.  He won’t get paid like a top 5 corner or at least he shouldn’t. 

Redwine isn’t ready yet maybe never will be seems to have athleticism but probably not the ball skills needed at this next level.  He made one play.  We saw maybe 4 total defensively last week 

WE need to make Safety a very high priority this offseason. 

Randall didn’t earn his next check here he’s been average all year and hurt too.  If you are dishing out checks next year you keep Hunt and Show and let Randall walk. 

overall you see a secondary with speed some skill But in a scheme that’s still up to debate if it’s useful here AND we now have no pass rush.  It’s going to make a pretty average secondary all season perform below average and even poorly.

 

[SdBacker80]

12 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

Inconsistent is the best way to put it. Ward has looked incredible at times, but his play on the deep ball is concerning. He's way ahead of Greedy on that front, but Ward panics EVERY time and grabs the WR's arm. He's gotten away with it a few times, but he's also been called for penalties. The other problem with Ward are the lack of big plays. It's VERY difficult to knock someone for this, but star players make star caliber plays. When was the past time he got a pick? A pick-6? A forced fumble? Greedy has definitely flashed, but it's pretty obvious that he's green. Our defense basically suffers from a perpetual lack of big plays. Terrence Mitchell gets the one interception, and our offense shits the bed. It's so typical. I think that was the drive where Baker threw deep to Landry but he couldn't hold on to it. Was it catchable? Sure looked like it. 

Anyway, there's some reason for hope in the future, but right now it's all about the young bucks taking their lumps and learning. I wouldn't be surprised if Andy Dalton torched our secondary Sunday because we'll have no pass rush. 

I’m a devote OSU fan probably have a few on here as well.

Ward had better technique at OSU.  Played the ball nicely avoided contact and stuck like glue to elite competition. 

[SdBacker80]

53 minutes ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said:

Inexperience. We could’ve used Haden, especially to mentor Ward.

Joe Haden didn’t play well here towards the end and never hung onto any INTs.  
 

Randall should be that guy as should Carrie  both guys were guys we acquired that had experience. 

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

Joe Haden didn’t play well here towards the end and never hung onto any INTs.  
 

Randall should be that guy as should Carrie  both guys were guys we acquired that had experience. 

He got burnt sometimes and maybe should have met in the middle at 9 million. He’s still a better corner and mentor than Randall and Carrie, with all due respect to them. He was the 7th overall pick and had a good career here and is still playing at a high level.

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

I’m a devote OSU fan probably have a few on here as well.

Ward had better technique at OSU.  Played the ball nicely avoided contact and stuck like glue to elite competition. 

Generally that what happens when you're allowed to be an "on ball" kind of corner.   A great reason for Denzel's immediate NFL success.

If you'll notice some of the things Wilks is asking our secondary to do, both good and bad, you might find your "technique" comment to turn into a question of its own.

[bjh2130]

4 hours ago, ballpeen said:

Hospital Ward  hasn't even been close to being good.  When are those idiots going to start looking for the ball?

 

The object of the position is to break up passes, not tackle the guy after he catches the ball.

Ward has been really good except for that last game. Both he and greedy were in the trail technique all game and were actually in good position but never looked for the ball.  They both had really bad games because they never got their heads around.

Ward prior to last game was allowing a completion 40.9% of time when he was the targeted db. That percentage put him at the lowest percentage allowed in the league. Jiggins brought up his penalties. While he has more this year than he had all of last year and he has played in less games he hasn't been called as many as some will have you believe. He's been called for 6 penalties this year, of which 5 have been accepted. The 5 accepted penalties have totalled 89 yards. 3 pass interference and 2 defensive holding.  The one not accepted penalty was also a defensive holding. That penalty was not accepted because he was called for pass interference the same play. He averages .417 penalties per game.  He is leading the team in penalty yards per game played however at 7.417.

Greedy is second on the team in penalty ypg at 6.917. Greedy has 7 penalties with one penalty declined totaling 83 yards.

Edited December 4, 2019 by bjh2130
Last game took his completion percentage allowed up to 44.6

[Icecube]

4 hours ago, ballpeen said:

Hospital Ward  hasn't even been close to being good.  When are those idiots going to start looking for the ball?

 

The object of the position is to break up passes, not tackle the guy after he catches the ball.

More like tacking BEFORE they catch the ball. 

[Icecube]

9 minutes ago, bjh2130 said:

Ward has been really good except for that last game. Both he and greedy were in the trail technique all game and were actually in good position but never looked for the ball.  They both had really bad games because they never got their heads around.

Ward prior to last game was allowing a completion 40.9% of time when he was the targeted db. That percentage put him at the lowest percentage allowed in the league. Jiggins brought up his penalties. While he has more this year than he had all of last year and he has played in less games he hasn't been called as many as some will have you believe. He's been called for 6 penalties this year, of which 5 have been accepted. The 5 accepted penalties have totalled 89 yards. 3 pass interference and 2 defensive holding.  The one not accepted penalty was also a defensive holding. That penalty was not accepted because he was called for pass interference the same play. 

I also saw the CBs get run over a few times, which was the knock on Greedy heading into the draft to begin with: not physical enough. 

[bjh2130]

Just now, Icecube said:

I also saw the CBs get run over a few times, which was the knock on Greedy heading into the draft to begin with: not physical enough. 

Yes Denzel and greedy both need to work on their tackling without a doubt. 

[gumby73]

There was parts of Gregg Williams coaching i could not stand...parts I liked..I thought Gregg was on the right path to getting Ward to break some bad nfl habits..The change to Wilk's system has seemed to either.. slowed it?..or . if not stopped that progress altogether? Every Corner we have now, also seem so hesitate to attack the football underneath..  

[Orion]

7 hours ago, ballpeen said:

The object of the position is to break up passes, not tackle the guy after he catches the ball.

Eric Wright comes to mind.   Follow the receiver closely, wherever he goes, then tackle him after he catches the ball.

[Tour2ma]

It's called "trail technique" guys... and I called it out after Sunday's loss.

4 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Generally that what happens when you're allowed to be an "on ball" kind of corner.   A great reason for Denzel's immediate NFL success.

If you'll notice some ofthe things Wilks is asking our secondary to do, both good and bad, you might find your "technique" comment to turn into a question of its own.

1 hour ago, gumby73 said:

There was parts of Gregg Williams coaching i could not stand...parts I liked..I thought Gregg was on the right path to getting Ward to break some bad nfl habits..The change to Wilk's system has seemed to either.. slowed it?..or . if not stopped that progress altogether? Every Corner we have now, also seem so hesitate to attack the football underneath..  

Put these two comments together because both allude to the DC change and the CBs are being asked to play differently... sometimes this season week to week.

 

Since Greedy's return his tackling has exceeded my expectations set this past preseason and in his showings prior to being hurt.

 

[Icecube]

18 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

It's called "trail technique" guys... and I called it out after Sunday's loss.

Put these two comments together because both allude to the DC change and the CBs are being asked to play differently... sometimes this season week to week.

 

Since Greedy's return his tackling has exceeded my expectations set this past preseason and in his showings prior to being hurt.

 

I thought I saw Greedy get run over by a Mack truck last week. 

[Tour2ma]

7 hours ago, Icecube said:

I thought I saw Greedy get run over by a Mack truck last week. 

Got a license number?

[ballpeen]

On 12/4/2019 at 4:12 PM, bjh2130 said:

Ward has been really good except for that last game. Both he and greedy were in the trail technique all game and were actually in good position but never looked for the ball.  They both had really bad games because they never got their heads around.

Ward prior to last game was allowing a completion 40.9% of time when he was the targeted db. That percentage put him at the lowest percentage allowed in the league. Jiggins brought up his penalties. While he has more this year than he had all of last year and he has played in less games he hasn't been called as many as some will have you believe. He's been called for 6 penalties this year, of which 5 have been accepted. The 5 accepted penalties have totalled 89 yards. 3 pass interference and 2 defensive holding.  The one not accepted penalty was also a defensive holding. That penalty was not accepted because he was called for pass interference the same play. He averages .417 penalties per game.  He is leading the team in penalty yards per game played however at 7.417.

Greedy is second on the team in penalty ypg at 6.917. Greedy has 7 penalties with one penalty declined totaling 83 yards.

Nice post.  I do take issue about looking up.  They never look up.  That is what pisses me off.  They are in good position to make a play on the ball, but would rather watch the receiver catch it, then tackle them.  On short passes, when they see the receiver start to look for the ball, they need to start looking for the ball.  It's going to get there.  On deep balls, when they see the receiver start looking, they can take a extra step or two because it isn't going to be there as quickly.  I don't care if they pick it, just knock it down.

[Tour2ma]

There is a form of "trail" where the DB does not look up/back for the ball, but rather plays the receiver's reaction to the ball. This is what it looked to me like Ward and Greedy were playing.

I'm not a fan of this approach.

[Unsympathetic]

If only there was a way to consistently grade each play made by these players instead of talking about our feelings. 

But then we might be analytical, and we can't have that on this forum!

Greedy is 58.5, Denzel is 65.4

[Flugel]

On 12/4/2019 at 12:28 AM, Icecube said:

No one seems to be talking about how weak CB play has been. Ward and Greedy haven't been playing as advertised. We thought when they came back, D would be improved. 

It's been talked about in the Fire Freddy thread but well worth further discussion.  Greg Pruitt also talked about it on one of the Cleveland sports radio shows when he stated Pitts' QB became a hero for throwing ducks with hang time that became TD passes (on our DBs with their backs to the ball).  In a world of you can't tackle what you can't see, you can't intercept/bat what you can't see either.  That also rolled out the red carpet for Pitts' QB to pick up 1st downs with his feet anytime he wanted to. 

Some of what Tour touched on, also explains why Schobert easily leads this team in INTs.   You could say he's the only one defending passes without blindfolds.  Wait a minute - I did say that.  Anyway, can you imagine what Baltimore will do in the rematch if our corners all have their backs to the QB?  

Edited December 8, 2019 by Flugel

[Flugel]

Dorsey overrated the Hell out of Greedy Williams. He might be the Austin Corbett of this draft, that didn't have a 1st round (because we lost it for a very talented veteran WR our offensive coaches don't have enough brain cells to utilize).  Gee, maybe we can try a triple reverse and add in an intentional fumble that bounces sideways to him on the fly.  Yeah, why would our Coaches waste time looking at the routes they keep getting nothing out of up against some of his routes/highlights he had success with previously? Why do all that when you can save so much time just blaming execution AGAIN?  What took some of the sting out of the swing and miss on Corbet was the luck of a guy like Chubb landing on our door step just a couple slots AFTER Corbett in round 2 last year.

As much as the hind sight 20/20 on losing Zeitler for Vernon leaves us best case scenario'n "maybe Vernon will play 25% of our defensive snaps on an injured knee"  - the addition of Zeitler to the Giants hasn't improved their overall record at all in a horrible division.  He also didn't prevent Cincy from losing his last season there or prevent Cleveland from going 0-16. Anyway, during our 3-1 record over the last 4 games - we changed/upgraded our RG spot to Teller (who still needs to be a little more consistent, which can be helped by more experience).

Did I miss something on why Baker isn't allowed to scramble this year in spite of some gimme's he turned down to throw the ball out of bounds or way too high?  I remember him doing this only once or so recently and we got a 1st down because of it.  I think a lot more injuries this year have happened to QBs in the pocket (ie: Drew Brees, Nick Foles, Ben R). 

That Freshman (Stingley) at LSU is already better than Greedy.  Did anyone see that kid play yesterday or this year?  WOW!  

[calfoxwc]

That Freshman (Stingley) at LSU is already better than Greedy.  Did anyone see that kid play yesterday or this year?  WOW!   Flugels

**************************************************

   Saw only some of it - had the sound off was on the phone - Stingley is a FRESHMAN??? wow.

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

Y’all are crazy.. grading draft picks in their rookie seasons. Greedy has played decent for a rookie corner.

[Icecube]

On 12/8/2019 at 7:24 AM, Flugel said:

It's been talked about in the Fire Freddy thread but well worth further discussion.  Greg Pruitt also talked about it on one of the Cleveland sports radio shows when he stated Pitts' QB became a hero for throwing ducks with hang time that became TD passes (on our DBs with their backs to the ball).  In a world of you can't tackle what you can't see, you can't intercept/bat what you can't see either.  That also rolled out the red carpet for Pitts' QB to pick up 1st downs with his feet anytime he wanted to. 

Some of what Tour touched on, also explains why Schobert easily leads this team in INTs.   You could say he's the only one defending passes without blindfolds.  Wait a minute - I did say that.  Anyway, can you imagine what Baltimore will do in the rematch if our corners all have their backs to the QB?  

The DBs seem to be taught, "Just grab, grab, grab" which leads to flags. I mean, should you try to cover in a legit way SOME of the time? I mean, some were selling Ward was a top 3 CB. I'm not seeing it. Some fans were claiming he was the best CB in the NFL. 

[tiamat63]

On 12/7/2019 at 3:10 PM, Tour2ma said:

There is a form of "trail" where the DB does not look up/back for the ball, but rather plays the receiver's reaction to the ball. This is what it looked to me like Ward and Greedy were playing.

I'm not a fan of this approach.

Hammer, meet nail.  A lot of coaches are teaching corners to instead play the ball as it arrives.   For whatever reason, despite the fact that 'look and lean' tends to net less flags IMHO, it is a continued practice.  

Greedy and Denzel are only playing how and what they're being coached to do.  If anyone has a gripe? (I do)  That rests on Wilks' shoulders.

[bjh2130]

4 hours ago, Icecube said:

The DBs seem to be taught, "Just grab, grab, grab" which leads to flags. I mean, should you try to cover in a legit way SOME of the time? I mean, some were selling Ward was a top 3 CB. I'm not seeing it. Some fans were claiming he was the best CB in the NFL. 

Ward is still right there at the top of the league for lowest completion percentage allowed when the wide receiver targeted is being covered by him (45%). He has taken a small step back this year but it's not as big as people believe. 

[The Gipper]

57 minutes ago, bjh2130 said:

Ward is still right there at the top of the league for lowest completion percentage allowed when the wide receiver targeted is being covered by him (45%). He has taken a small step back this year but it's not as big as people believe. 

Injuries have been his problem.