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The 'Who you watching?' 2020 thread.


The Gipper

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I'm on board with Matt Peart - OT, UConn.    Watched vs USF, Wagner and Navy.

- Good Feet.  Ideal for more of a ZBS

- Great wingspan. And despite the long arms, doesn't use them without control.  I.e.  didn't really see any holding calls. 

- Hips and kick look fluid.  This goes back to his feet, big boy with good wheels.

- Works to the next level under control and rarely misses his mark.

- Hands initial punch on edge speed with reasonable force finding largest available surface area.

 

He might not be absolutely devastating in the running game, but he does a good job positioning himself and leveraging his man inside or kicking him out.  Anchors well enough when bull rushed.  Not a pure power guy, but he can hold his ground without being bullied.    Uses his long arms to his advantage and rarely lets rushers into his chest.          So far, looks like mid round gold. 

 

edit:  @Tour2ma I'm sure will be happy with this find.

 

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Honestly - it's "I ask a dumb question time" lol...

Peart is one of those guys I read up on, watch some film and go "what the heck"....

and I am NOT trying to pick on him at all.

He looks the part, plays the part, to me. But then you read stuff from other folks who criticize him.

like:

https://draftwire.usatoday.com/2020/03/26/2020-nfl-draft-matt-peart-scouting-report/

and

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/2020-nfl-draft-uconn-offensive-tackle-matt-peart/

"There is one aspect of the game Peart lacks that is a major red flag – a killer instinct and nasty attitude.  In three years of watching his film, I’ve never seen him look like a blocker hellbent on finishing off opponents, playing through the whistle, or working to finish blocks.

That is a problem many are aware of.

Entering the season, Peart was graded by scouts as early as a fourth-round pick to as late as a sixth-round pick in the 2020 NFL Draft.  I was consistent in my assessment of the senior – he was a fifth-round prospect who had enough playing ability to move into the second round if he picked up the intensity.

I’ve yet to see it happen in 2019. "

********************************************************

     so, what is there about drafting a player that blows the doors off expectations, and other guys who just don't make it? I keep thinking it's internal drive - intensity - love for the game...and not all players have it. There's Joe Thomas, who didn't miss one snap in thousands and thousands? LOL ! That's serious kick-ass love for the game. There's guys like Joel Bitonio, who is also terrific and a natural kickass-er.

kickass-er. ?

   Then there's Austin Corbett, who didn't play like Bitonio, but played more like 300 lbs of oleo. Flugels - I can talk to him about him having played OL, and you can freaking hear over the phone - how he loved the game, and the kickass fire he had.

  There's soft Cameron Irving. Had the ability big-time, but it seems to me the fire and intensity was never there.

So, in conclusion, how does anybody tell when a Jones or Peart or whoever/any other player has that drive..or not?

Is my stupid mock pick of Josh Jones - more like Cameron Irving or Joe Thomas? I think he has that fire, and he's very smart.

If only Andrew Thomas would fall to the Browns - I won't have to find out.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Flugel said:

🤣 Classic stuff!  

Something tells me he wants a little more Eddie Haskell from you along the lines of...  "That's a GREAT pick Mr Cleaver.  Your draft looks very nice today!"   What he doesn't want to hear is.. "And by the way, I just broke your all your basement windows..."

Boy, you got that backward.  He wants to be the object of  the Eddie Haskell fawning. 

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1 hour ago, Flugel said:

I'm talking about Gips.  He gets pissed off when people don't stick to his subject headings and then he hi-jacks other people's threads and gets in 10 page arguments with people on something that has nothing to do with the subject heading he invaded.

If it only happened once or twice, it wouldn't be an issue but he does it all the time to people.

 

 

 

Actually....I don't.   It is others that go off thread  because they, for some reason have this obsession with everything I say, and if I make some slight error of fact (I put 1000 facts a week up on here, and maybe one of them is off)   or if I misread someone's intent...then it is a major crisis in their life for which they must ruminate about incessantly... 

So, I don't take things off track much.....I just follow them when they do.

Like you did right here.   :o

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6 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

"There is one aspect of the game Peart lacks that is a major red flag – a killer instinct and nasty attitude.  In three years of watching his film, I’ve never seen him look like a blocker hellbent on finishing off opponents, playing through the whistle, or working to finish blocks. "

I think the answer to your concerns is capsulized in tia's really well considered, summary write-up...

7 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

He might not be absolutely devastating in the running game, but he does a good job positioning himself and leveraging his man inside or kicking him out.  Anchors well enough when bull rushed.  Not a pure power guy, but he can hold his ground without being bullied.    Uses his long arms to his advantage and rarely lets rushers into his chest.          So far, looks like mid round gold. 

In short... Peart's not a physical mauler, but that's not a killer in a ZBS-centric Offense.

It is certainly not a trait you seek, if you run a power/gap scheme...

... but ZBS? Well you can work with that.

 

Goalline situations? Just run the other way... which you're likely to do anyway behind Bito.

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Plus you can always draft Netane Muti (what a great name) to put next to Peart...

Word on him is he has more than enough "mean" to supply one side of the line.

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13 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Plus you can always draft Netane Muti (what a great name) 

If Muti can stay on the field? Is he any better than Will Hernandez tape coming out of school.. in your opinion?

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5 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

If Muti can stay on the field? Is he any better than Will Hernandez tape coming out of school.. in your opinion?

Yes... I think he can be the next Yanda/Scherff...

I hate highlight vids, but this one is a hoot! You do NOT want to let this guy see your ribs..

Weird opening, but let it roll...

 

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Here's Netane's 2019 USC tape...

Can see that his good, but not great, pad level can get him into trouble against better competition, but still... he's a beast.

 

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And I think Fresno's LT, #72, bears some watching. He'll be a Junior this year. Kid needs to develop a punch, but moves pretty well.

image.thumb.png.f095ea5be2888961a79fa0d376c5c8b8.png

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@calfoxwc

Even in a ZBS, primarily a IZS, I want my guards to be able to win inside with their drive blocks when called on.  At some point, especially in goal to go situations, you're going to have to move the LOS.

Which is one of reasons I liked what I watched of Kevin Dotson.  I like bigger bodies in the middle who might not be Bito, but can move well enough. 

However I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of that mauler nature on the ends for wingspan, footwork, leverage and pass pro. 

If we run OZ, I need to know that the tackle as the read point can move well enough to not be a liability laterally and (ideally)  be able to reach block closed ends should the ball carrier keep pushing outside.

Pearts case highlights my wants over worries type scenario.

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@gumby73

 

I guess I just don't see it with Kareem.  He doesn't really have the speed to consistency threaten the edge, he doesn't have the speed to power to win back inside either.  He seems.... slow. Off the snap that is.   No real "suddenness" to his first step.   Uses his hands ok enough I guess?  But doesn't really punish blockers by driving into them or even past them.    Also questionable and sometimes completely non-existent bend to help take the edge.  Really does a poor job minimizing surface area and tends to present his whole body for blockers to strike at.    He just doesn't seem to have any one particular weapon in his arsenal that stands out to hang his hat on.   He's slow on twists and stunts, and I question his speed as the weak/open end because he never seems to be able to crash down from the backside to finish off a tackle on ball carriers that are dancing behind the line.   I can't remember the last time I watched a "meh" kind of cloned edge rusher.   He may one day develop into someone who contributes in a type of rotation or deep backup role? But there's nothing in 3 games I've seen where I say "Ok, I saw THIS flash" at any point.   Then we can build off of that.    He's just one of those bodies who is "there".   At the collegiate level he won't hurt your team, but he sure as hell ain't going to get you over the top either.     I just don't see that translating to hidden potential next level. 

So.... yeah.   No offense, but that's my 2 cents on him.

 

edit:  But I will tell you who jumps out on occasion from that Notre Dame defense when I watched - #40, the linebacker.    Had to look him up - Drew White.   Keep an eye on him in the time to come.

 

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2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

@gumby73

 

I guess I just don't see it with Kareem.  He doesn't really have the speed to consistency threaten the edge, he doesn't have the speed to power to win back inside either.  He seems.... slow. Off the snap that is.   No real "suddenness" to his first step.   Uses his hands ok enough I guess?  But doesn't really punish blockers by driving into them or even past them.    Also questionable and sometimes completely non-existent bend to help take the edge.  Really does a poor job minimizing surface area and tends to present his whole body for blockers to strike at.    He just doesn't seem to have any one particular weapon in his arsenal that stands out to hang his hat on.   He's slow on twists and stunts, and I question his speed as the weak/open end because he never seems to be able to crash down from the backside to finish off a tackle on ball carriers that are dancing behind the line.   I can't remember the last time I watched a "meh" kind of cloned edge rusher.   He may one day develop into someone who contributes in a type of rotation or deep backup role? But there's nothing in 3 games I've seen where I say "Ok, I saw THIS flash" at any point.   Then we can build off of that.    He's just one of those bodies who is "there".   At the collegiate level he won't hurt your team, but he sure as hell ain't going to get you over the top either.     I just don't see that translating to hidden potential next level. 

So.... yeah.   No offense, but that's my 2 cents on him.

 

edit:  But I will tell you who jumps out on occasion from that Notre Dame defense when I watched - #40, the linebacker.    Had to look him up - Drew White.   Keep an eye on him in the time to come.

 

I had a similar take. What's your take on Zuniga? I love the kids burst but I dont really see much after that. Developmental guy perhaps?

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On 4/5/2020 at 6:15 PM, Tour2ma said:

I think the answer to your concerns is capsulized in tia's really well considered, summary write-up...

In short... Peart's not a physical mauler, but that's not a killer in a ZBS-centric Offense.

It is certainly not a trait you seek, if you run a power/gap scheme...

... but ZBS? Well you can work with that.

 

Goalline situations? Just run the other way... which you're likely to do anyway behind Bito.

Another thing I like about the 1 film I saw of Peart vrs UCF was how well he pulled from his RT spot all the way to the left edge of the formation (this was when they were down 28-0 in terms of where in the video you can find it). And I think anyone that watches the entire video will not see a "soft" player at all. No matter what the score/situation was - Peart played extremely well under adversity.   Tia put together a nice summary on the guy for us.  We often talk about feet, punch, pad height, hips/lateral movement, etc when we discuss OL.  I often simplify it down to what I used to teach kids at the Freshman football level in high school in terms of what I look for in a prospect to determine if he's clay we can mold or not.  I told kids these are the 5 winning ingredients that can give you delicious football on every play...

1) Head Up (until the play is over)  - Peart does this well vrs UCF

2) Get there first (always be first to contact) - Peart did this, which is why I liked what I saw in him.  Scrappy kid.

3) Establish and maintain Ideal pad height.  Doing so, effectively recruits help of the hips and legs. Not doing so, forfeits your hips/legs and good luck with that.  Peart did this very well for a guy that's 6'7".   We used to do a board drill that proved #2-5 correct. 

4) Keep a wide base with feet (to prevent over-extension).  Peart does this on the video, which is yet another thing that makes him effective.

5) Don't stop until you hear the whistle.  There's countless examples of Peart doing this. 

This is a very good prospect for a zbs - in spite of the reality he's not a LT yet.  The numbers below are for John Greco mostly to illustrate he was primarily a backup for his 1st 4 years in the NFL.  Finally in 2012, his experience level had him good enough to crack into our starting line-up. In 2014, Kyle Shanahan brought the zbs to our offense and it really became the most compatible scheme fit for his skill set producing his very best football IMO. If we do draft Peart to be our future LT,  I think the zbs will expedite his learning curve.  It's also possible we could offer a 1 year contract to a veteran FA LT.  We shall see.

Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Ret Yds TD Lng Y/R Rt Yds TD Lng Y/Rt APYd AV
2008 23 STL rg 79 9 1           1 14 0 14 14.0 14 1
2009 24 STL rg   11 3                     0 1
2010 25 STL   79 6 0                     0 0
2011 26 CLE   77 15 0                     0 0
2012 27 CLE LG 77 14 10                     0 5
2013 28 CLE LG/rg 77 14 14                     0 5
2014 29 CLE c/RG 77 16 16                     0 6
2015 30 CLE RG 77 14 14                     0 5
2016 31 CLE c/RG 77 12 12                     0 5
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17 hours ago, Louisville Slugger said:

I had a similar take. What's your take on Zuniga? I love the kids burst but I dont really see much after that. Developmental guy perhaps?

I was pleasantly surprised when I watched Zuni.  Nothing overwhelming, but the kid does certain things really well.

- Initial strike on blockers looks like a solid "punch".   

- He does a decent job using his arms to keep lineman from getting into his chest 

- Reasonably quick disengage from potential blockers

- Shows some "get skinny" in the gaps to work past lineman.

- Decent first step.    

- Flexability

Re: the last one.  Florida uses him all over the formation. Base end, base 4/5 tech, sometimes as a 9 or wide edge then other times inside at a more conventional 3tech spot.

He didn't look dominant, but he showed more than enough potential to be drafted and a team to invest in a developmental type spot.   Showed out quite well vs the right side of LSU's line.    

 

edit:  Maybe just a hair slower, but I felt I was watching Frostee Rucker at times.

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2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I was pleasantly surprised when I watched Zuni.

Thought you might like him... has a couple things you can't teach and a couple you won't have to... which ain't bad for a Day-4 Edge.

If you have a minute look at a bargain basement kid, Syracuse's Kendall Coleman. Kid is pretty skilled, but doesn't have the physical gifts.

 

Also... has anybody looked at Chaisson? I never did as he just did not seem to be in the cards for us, but...

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21 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Thought you might like him... has a couple things you can't teach and a couple you won't have to... which ain't bad for a Day-4 Edge.

If you have a minute look at a bargain basement kid, Syracuse's Kendall Coleman. Kid is pretty skilled, but doesn't have the physical gifts.

 

Also... has anybody looked at Chaisson? I never did as he just did not seem to be in the cards for us, but...

So I started watching him, then half way through ended up turning my attention to a DB on the 'Cuse roster.  #3 - Christopher Fredrick.     

Coleman looks like a hustle "effort" kind of kid.   Not ideal when I'm watching a game for him and seeing a corner catch my eye.

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15 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Not ideal when I'm watching a game for him and seeing a corner catch my eye.

It happens. It's how I "found" DeValve when I was scouting a Princeton OT.

About what I saw in Coleman... a kid who has pretty much maxxed himself, but one I'd consider in the 7th or as UDFA.

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@MLD Woody

So I'm watching your boy Uche under the fine tooth comb.   I kind of see some of the things you're talking about and I think he's a quality football player.   But I think his premium isn't immediately primarily as a pass rusher.   The kid is quite fluid in space and seems to have a good understanding of what is developing in front of him. He has that "see ball, get ball".   He looks like Shaq Thompson at times. Good quicks and can use them as the 5th or 6th man when pressuring.  Speaking of -  his pass rush stance is...  idk how to describe it.  He looks like he's standing narrow ready to fire out of a chalk running sprints.      He has a good first step, and I mean that - a good one.     But it isn't elite, and his length, ability to bend around the edge or any type of counter move isn't ideal.  But he did take his speed, put it into power and drive Tristan Wirfs back a few times.  He even got a pressure on one of them.   Beyond that? He got beat up pretty bad on both sides by the Iowa tackles.   He's a 9-align on base downs as an on-ball linebacker.   Then UM started using him all over vs Iowa.  Sometimes as a decoy then sending pressure from the other side.    In the 3-3 looks, he seems to move around quite a bit and flips in assignment between dropping and rushing, with an occasional "green light" to do either.

Vs Illinois and some of their option concepts, he would have a gap assignment, but attack it from an off ball LB look.   Sometimes it looked like UM was already slanting their lines, so I'm sure this is by design.  An interesting way of attacking spread teams who like to run laterally.    Interesting that in some of the cover 2 looks he's the MLB as well.    He just looks like a very space and speed dependent rusher.  When he can get wide and get a full head of steam, he has the bull to drive some tackles back.  But he never really wins the edge, drop his hips, then use his arms to create the pressure.   Very scheme dependent and most of what he does is on tenacity + effort.      Great motor by the way, kid never stops running.   But the Illini RT ate him up pretty bad.    Haven't seen a single counter move back to the inside.

Vs Penn State, he did a good job of getting to the flash blocks before they got to him.   Once he got his hands on the lead, he held his ground and waited for help to arrive.  Can't ask much more than that.    Stopping the run consistently isn't about the individual making a play so much as everyone playing their role as a unit.       Still not offering much on either side as the primary edge rusher though.   

In 4 man fronts where it's obvious how and when he's coming, his quickness off the snap is somewhat neutralized by his lack of physical stature to be a reliable edge rusher.   But when he's turned loose as an off backer linebacker who can gap exchange or be sent from different places it becomes a different story.  Then he's able to get creative in his timing and rush technique and generate some pressure.  I say some, because he's like a decent PG - he can space the floor and find the other man, but he isn't great at creating his own shot. 

As the 5th or 6th man in the pressure the role looks much more effective.  He drives backs and TE's chipping quite well and tends to put them into a QB's face creating a pressure and getting them off the spot.   

He looks like a role player and off ball linebacker.  The problem is, he doesn't have a hell of a lot of time mastering any one position so he'll need time, and a patient yet slightly creative coaching staff to use him properly.     There is potential.  But I don't see Trent Cole, undersized yet monstrous type player.  And he isn't big enough to hold a 5tech spot down vs  the run.

 

Not sure how high you intend on taking him or for what team, but right now as a linebacker I guess I could see a later day 2 pick.  

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37 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I guess I could see a later day 2 pick.  

DraftScout agrees...

I think they have Dye too low... but just saw where he finished 2019 playing on a torn meniscus in one knee.

image.thumb.png.b60201cbde1a686c6f2b733606934c67.png

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7 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

DraftScout agrees...

I think they have Dye too low... but just saw where he finished 2019 playing on a torn meniscus in one knee.

image.thumb.png.b60201cbde1a686c6f2b733606934c67.png

Depends on where you're asking Dye to play IMHO.  Watched Oregon early in the season...   interesting inside backer prospect.  

I was thinking 3rd... maybe early 4th for Uche depending on position runs.  Physical attributes are there, just need to refine how you want him to play.

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2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

@MLD Woody

So I'm watching your boy Uche under the fine tooth comb.   I kind of see some of the things you're talking about and I think he's a quality football player.   But I think his premium isn't immediately primarily as a pass rusher.   The kid is quite fluid in space and seems to have a good understanding of what is developing in front of him. He has that "see ball, get ball".   He looks like Shaq Thompson at times. Good quicks and can use them as the 5th or 6th man when pressuring.  Speaking of -  his pass rush stance is...  idk how to describe it.  He looks like he's standing narrow ready to fire out of a chalk running sprints.      He has a good first step, and I mean that - a good one.     But it isn't elite, and his length, ability to bend around the edge or any type of counter move isn't ideal.  But he did take his speed, put it into power and drive Tristan Wirfs back a few times.  He even got a pressure on one of them.   Beyond that? He got beat up pretty bad on both sides by the Iowa tackles.   He's a 9-align on base downs as an on-ball linebacker.   Then UM started using him all over vs Iowa.  Sometimes as a decoy then sending pressure from the other side.    In the 3-3 looks, he seems to move around quite a bit and flips in assignment between dropping and rushing, with an occasional "green light" to do either.

Vs Illinois and some of their option concepts, he would have a gap assignment, but attack it from an off ball LB look.   Sometimes it looked like UM was already slanting their lines, so I'm sure this is by design.  An interesting way of attacking spread teams who like to run laterally.    Interesting that in some of the cover 2 looks he's the MLB as well.    He just looks like a very space and speed dependent rusher.  When he can get wide and get a full head of steam, he has the bull to drive some tackles back.  But he never really wins the edge, drop his hips, then use his arms to create the pressure.   Very scheme dependent and most of what he does is on tenacity + effort.      Great motor by the way, kid never stops running.   But the Illini RT ate him up pretty bad.    Haven't seen a single counter move back to the inside.

Vs Penn State, he did a good job of getting to the flash blocks before they got to him.   Once he got his hands on the lead, he held his ground and waited for help to arrive.  Can't ask much more than that.    Stopping the run consistently isn't about the individual making a play so much as everyone playing their role as a unit.       Still not offering much on either side as the primary edge rusher though.   

In 4 man fronts where it's obvious how and when he's coming, his quickness off the snap is somewhat neutralized by his lack of physical stature to be a reliable edge rusher.   But when he's turned loose as an off backer linebacker who can gap exchange or be sent from different places it becomes a different story.  Then he's able to get creative in his timing and rush technique and generate some pressure.  I say some, because he's like a decent PG - he can space the floor and find the other man, but he isn't great at creating his own shot. 

As the 5th or 6th man in the pressure the role looks much more effective.  He drives backs and TE's chipping quite well and tends to put them into a QB's face creating a pressure and getting them off the spot.   

He looks like a role player and off ball linebacker.  The problem is, he doesn't have a hell of a lot of time mastering any one position so he'll need time, and a patient yet slightly creative coaching staff to use him properly.     There is potential.  But I don't see Trent Cole, undersized yet monstrous type player.  And he isn't big enough to hold a 5tech spot down vs  the run.

 

Not sure how high you intend on taking him or for what team, but right now as a linebacker I guess I could see a later day 2 pick.  

 

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Depends on where you're asking Dye to play IMHO.  Watched Oregon early in the season...   interesting inside backer prospect.  

I was thinking 3rd... maybe early 4th for Uche depending on position runs.  Physical attributes are there, just need to refine how you want him to play.

Good write up Tia

Pretty much agree with all of that after watching and reading about him since he committed to Michigan. 

I'll say PFF has been pretty high on Uche. They rated him the best player at the Sr Bowl. 

 

But yeah he's got some burst

 

 

 

I'll bet you he goes before the 4th though. 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

 

Good write up Tia

Pretty much agree with all of that after watching and reading about him since he committed to Michigan. 

I'll say PFF has been pretty high on Uche. They rated him the best player at the Sr Bowl. 

 

But yeah he's got some burst

 

 

 

There in lies my issue with PFF.  They don't say who the pressure rate was against and pressure rate disbursement.  Was he the primary edge? 5th man? 6th?  Against an OT, TE, RB?  Did he have a massive game against Rutgers then have problems vs decent OT's?

 

Really want to see where his strength is and why I say it's necessary to disguise him?

 

 

 

Go to 2:14 on the delay pressure.     The only reason Penn State's QB doesn't get lit up is because their RB caught this out of the very corner of his eye... almost by the pure luck of timing.

He's basically a will backer who you can get creative with on passing D&D's.    Because his first step is pretty damn good when he is flying downhill.  

  

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2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

There in lies my issue with PFF.  They don't say who the pressure rate was against and pressure rate disbursement.  Was he the primary edge? 5th man? 6th?  Against an OT, TE, RB?  Did he have a massive game against Rutgers then have problems vs decent OT's?

 

Really want to see where his strength is and why I say it's necessary to disguise him?

 

 

 

Go to 2:14 on the delay pressure.     The only reason Penn State's QB doesn't get lit up is because their RB caught this out of the very corner of his eye... almost by the pure luck of timing.

He's basically a will backer who you can get creative with on passing D&D's.    Because his first step is pretty damn good when he is flying downhill.  

  

 

Oh I don't disagree that he isn't going to come into the league and immediately start on every down on the edge. He'll need time to round out his game but the foundation and the athleticism are there. In the meantime, as you said, he can be used very effectively and creatively as a pass rusher.

It is also important to note we have basically 0 organic interior pass rush in 2019 (really missing Mo Hurst). To get pressure Don Brown had to do some different things in the front 7. And like I said earlier, we ran a lot more 3-3-5  sets to get Uche on the field and create that pressure. 

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