Bold idea that would change the landscape of sports in Cleveland

[hoorta]

8 hours ago, The Gipper said:

And that is what they want.   I read that Jerry charges $100 just to park at Cowboys games.  And I think they get like 15,000 cars there.  That is $1,500,000  in his pocket before you walk in the door to the stadium. 

As Ballpeen pointed out- I should have emphasized- the $100 parking was just for the Super Bowl. Regular season parking is considerably cheaper. Regarding actually getting a legit Super Bowl ticket at face value it's going to set you back a lot. For SB LV the original ticket price range was $950- $5,000.  

[Dutch Oven]

5 minutes ago, hoorta said:

1) Because that's what the Colts wanted, and Irsay kicked in $100 million to sweeten the pot. In the 10 years since Lucas Oil was built the price ($720 million) of a new domed stadium has more than doubled- and along with it the requisite extortion of the paying public. 

2) Are you just being dense? Other than they're all "downtown"? Any similarities end there. I'll leave it at that. 

3) That "model" is what Kroenke is doing in LA, FYI. Following what Jones and Kraft have done to maximize their profits. I'm not saying we literally have to keep up with the (Jerry) Jonses. Haslam isn't going anywhere for several years- until he's nearing the end of his lease anyway, so all this talk is way premature. 

1. So the "model" is what Kroenke is doing, but numerous teams have recently done the total opposite. 

2. Atlanta's downtown is so great, so much better than Cleveland's, that the Braves flew the coop and built their new stadium nowhere near it. They actually abandoned the great downtown of Atlanta, that Cleveland can't compare to.

3. See #1. 

[hoorta]

14 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I believe over half of the Vikings dome was paid by the owner. 

Here's the deal: Some teams have built megaplexes outside the city they are named for, some have built new stadiums smack dab in the heart of their respective cities.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. The Browns could very well build a new (most likely domed) stadium inside the city limits, near or in downtown, or they could build outside the city... but I think that if the Haslams continuing owning the Browns, First Energy Stadium will not get another 20 years. 

Hopefully- this link has what needs to be said at the present time. The Haslam's are thinking about it. Nothing needs to be decided for around 5 years, as the lease on First Energy is until 2029. LOL, and I might be dead by then..... 

https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2018/05/03/the-browns-are-already-talking-about-a-new-stadium-or-major-renovations

[The Gipper]

5 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Yeah, it does matter. It matters because apparently the owners of the Detroit Lions, Indianapolis Colts, Seattle Seahawks, Minnesota Vikings and Atlanta Falcons all built new stadiums in their respective downtowns, or just outside it, for nothing resembling your 300 acres or 200 acres. 

No, it doesn't matter a cabbage fart what those guys did....IF the Haslam's and the league were to get what they want.

Now...IF there were to be a new stadium, could they settle for something less than what they want?  Sure. They could look at scaling thing down, because they can't get what they want.   But it has nothing to do with what these other teams do.   The "other" teams that are the models for what NFL owners likely will want in the future are the ones I previously mentioned....Cowboys/Pats/LA etc......the ones with a lot of developable land. 

[The Gipper]

4 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Why did the Indianapolis Colts HAVE to build downtown? 

What do you mean there's no comparison between downtown Atlanta and Chicago to Cleveland? 

The NFL model according to you and Gipper is to have 300 acres in the middle of nowhere with the exception of all the teams that have done exactly the opposite of that, two of those teams being the Vikings and Falcons, who opened their downtown, or near downtown domed stadiums in 2016 and 2017 respectively. . 

Well...here is the reason:   those facilities where highly subsidized by the local governments....who want  the economic boost to their downtowns that the stadiums there give them.

But, the ones we are talking about are the privately funded ones, again, like those several that have been mentioned.  Those 200-300 acres to develop means that those teams do not have to rely on  government subsidies much at all, as they can develop those grounds and make them profit centers that help pay for the private financing of the stadiums. 

I suppose if the Halsam's wanted vast government subsidies, they would have to "settle" for a smaller footprint, but they would have to give up on the idea of doing all the development they would likely want to do. 

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, ballpeen said:

We have a course in Ooltewah, just north of town where using a caddy is mandatory.   The Honors Course.  It's a little steep for my blood to be a member...$35,000 to join. Never asked my friends about the monthly.  One did let out he was buying lunch because he was behind on his $4500 a year club dining fee.  Each member has to spend $4500 a year in the dining room.  Not just buying beers and things in the mens lounge.  They maintain a good chef and staff.  If they don't spend it, they get a bill for the unused portion. I do have several friends who are members so I get to play out there maybe 10 times a year.  The recommended minimum tip to the caddy is $80 per bag.

OK, but they are few and far between. 

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I was just reading a Cowboys message board at it said $30-$60, though I am not sure it was in a premium lot next to the stadium.  Some said if you can walk a mile or two it wasn't bad.  

 

My wife doesn't like to walk far.  When she comes I don't park in the flats for $15...I think it went up to that this past season.  Just up top, at least early in the season I paid $50.  It dropped to $40 later in the season.  It had been $30 for years.

 

I read somewhere the Cowboys were getting $100 for the Superbowl...well, why not?  Parking is probably relative to ticket prices.  If you can really afford a ticket to the Superbowl, you can fork over another $100 to park the car.

OK, well, if it is only 40-50 for regular games, that is still a hefty pricetag IMO. 

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, hoorta said:

1) Because that's what the Colts wanted, and Irsay kicked in $100 million to sweeten the pot. In the 10 years since Lucas Oil was built the price ($720 million) of a new domed stadium has more than doubled- and along with it the requisite extortion of the paying public. 

2) Are you just being dense? Other than they're all "downtown"? Any similarities end there. I'll leave it at that. 

3) That "model" is what Kroenke is doing in LA, FYI. Following what Jones and Kraft have done to maximize their profits. I'm not saying we literally have to keep up with the (Jerry) Jonses. Haslam isn't going anywhere for several years- until he's nearing the end of his lease anyway, so all this talk is way premature. 

Lease ends in 2028 or 2029.....IF there is to be something new on the horizon, they would not want to wait too long to start the planning process. 

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

1. So the "model" is what Kroenke is doing, but numerous teams have recently done the total opposite. 

2. Atlanta's downtown is so great, so much better than Cleveland's, that the Braves flew the coop and built their new stadium nowhere near it. They actually abandoned the great downtown of Atlanta, that Cleveland can't compare to.

3. See #1. 

I am far less impressed with downtown Atlanta than you are.   It might be bigger than Cleveland's, but greater is not a term I would use.  Sorry.

[The Gipper]

By the way,  having been just by the new Raiders Stadium in LV,  there is some developable land around it.  Not 200 acres, but some.   Mandalay Bay sits across I-15 from it, and that facility has a huge convention center.  It would not surprise me if they did not build some kind of method of connecting the two, rather than just walking on the street over the bridge.  They may build a pedestrian bridge, or tunnel at some point

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

OK, well, if it is only 40-50 for regular games, that is still a hefty pricetag IMO. 

As I mentioned Gipper- the Burke Airport lot where Steve holds his GNATS Tailgate already hit the $40 mark for regular season games. 

One thing these guys pushing (whining) for a "state of the art" domed stadium may not realize, and had better get ready for- is "state of the art" ticket prices to go along with it. I have a feeling  most of these guys (Ballpeen excepted- he has club seats) would balk at a logarithmic increase in prices. A little research told me my $120 tickets would cost $325 for the same location at Jerry World.  

 

[TexasAg1969]

I don't even go to A&M games anymore. Cheapest seat in the house is on my clicker. Comes with a beer or a glass of wine and instant replay with commentary. Plus I can always record it and if they get blown out I just delete it. I run the No Heartbreak Hotel.🙄

[ballpeen]

18 hours ago, The Gipper said:

The Akron Zoo IS viable, so that would not be the location.   I had thought the location where the former Rolling Acres Mall sat would have made a fine location for a Stadium/Arena/retail site.  There was likely enough land there...even is they had to take over some current older commercial areas adjacent to it.   But, Amazon is now putting a distribution center there...and supposedly are going to have 3000 jobs  (I really have my doubts about that).  Then there is the Chapel Hill Mall site, which is likely closing.   Malls are closing at a rate higher than golf courses.  

But, no, Akron would not be the place they would want to go.  Lorain County either.  The whole sin tax thing if you recall was just a Cuyahoga County thing.  I know they would prefer close to downtown, but if not that, they would need to stay in Cuyahoga County.   The old Randall Park Mall could have been a thing, but it too is now an Amazon distribution center. 

There is a place in the south Flats that I saw in a sattellite image.   Near Steelyard Commons, and a golf course next to it called  Washington Learning course.  It looks like there is a huge, huge pile of coal, or some dark material there.   I don't know if that is a landfill, or if it is still a viable manufacturing area.  It is right at the Fleet Ave. intersection with I-77.   See if you can take a look at that.  I wonder if anyone knows anything about it. 

I know.  To me the stadium issue should become a multi-county issue.  The stadium doesn't benefit only those who live in the county of it's location.  I got it, find a spot on a county line.  Stadium in one, all the parking and restaurant development in the other.

[ballpeen]

10 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I believe over half of the Vikings dome was paid by the owner. 

Here's the deal: Some teams have built megaplexes outside the city they are named for, some have built new stadiums smack dab in the heart of their respective cities.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. The Browns could very well build a new (most likely domed) stadium inside the city limits, near or in downtown, or they could build outside the city... but I think that if the Haslams continuing owning the Browns, First Energy Stadium will not get another 20 years. 

It shouldn't.  The stadium isn't very good.  It was built in haste and on the cheap.  It's kind of like a medium level builders spec home.  It's OK for 20 years, then things start falling apart.

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I know.  To me the stadium issue should become a multi-county issue.  The stadium doesn't benefit only those who live in the county of it's location.  I got it, find a spot on a county line.  Stadium in one, all the parking and restaurant development in the other.

I basically agree with that....the multi-county comment.   But I think Cuyahoga Co., and its residents, would pitch a huge bitch after having footed the whole bill for the stadium by paying for the sin tax for all these years just to have the team move out of county.

[TexasAg1969]

18 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

I basically agree with that....the multi-county comment.   But I think Cuyahoga Co., and its residents, would pitch a huge bitch after having footed the whole bill for the stadium by paying for the sin tax for all these years just to have the team move out of county.

The Charlie Browns  team they put on the field since coming back should be the ones paying the sin tax. It keeps stinking up the place.😷

[The Gipper]

14 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

The Charlie Browns  team they put on the field since coming back should be the ones paying the sin tax. It keeps stinking up the place.😷

Good Grief!

[gumby73]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

Good Grief!

Come on now...That was truthfully a **Bold** idea... carry on... this is actually a good thoughtful read👍 (now back to spending Jimma's money...wisely)

[mjp28]

12 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Lease ends in 2028 or 2029.....IF there is to be something new on the horizon, they would not want to wait too long to start the planning process. 

That's just what I've been thinking.  These projects generally get started in the secret pre-planning stages maybe around 10 or more years out with acquiring the legal, property searches, rough construction estimates for the financial planning, etc required to see if it is even possible.

I remember in the steel construction business we'd get the rough quotes for Building A or Project X so they could get a handle on the tonnage, costs, trucks needed cranes required, concrete costs, etc.  Then then with an architect spin this information with rough estimates for finishing the building or project into the preliminary costs for the project.

They then start the "money stage" to see what kind of financing is needed and who might foot the bill for it.  They then send out feelers to the various governments that might be involved.  This all takes a few years before it ever hits your local newspapers or internet rumours and for all of us here on TBB to figure it all out.

And that's all there is to it.   

[hoorta]

7 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I don't even go to A&M games anymore. Cheapest seat in the house is on my clicker. Comes with a beer or a glass of wine and instant replay with commentary. Plus I can always record it and if they get blown out I just delete it. I run the No Heartbreak Hotel.🙄

Yeah, I can't really complain about Browns ticket prices. You can ask that wild & crazy driving guy Ballpeen how much he shells out for his Florida Gators tickets (besides the Browns) every year- I'll assume he still has them. 

When I bought in on my PSLs in 1996, it cost me $1,500 for two seats payable in three yearly installments. No further cost on my part except renewing the tickets every year at the latest price Jimmy feels like charging. OTOH one of my wine pals (retired dentist from Ohio State Dental School) has season tickets to the Buckeyes. She has to kick in a $2,000 contribution to the Athletic Department every year just to retain the privilege of buying her tickets- and they're almost as expensive, $100 as opposed to my $120, and they're not nearly as good- corner end zone compared to my 20 yard line sideline. It's quite a nice racket OSU has going, the quality of your ticket is dependent on your annual contribution and total lifetime contributions. I wouldn't doubt the premium seating between the 40s sets those wealthy alumni back around $50,000 a year. 

[Dutch Oven]

20 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I am far less impressed with downtown Atlanta than you are.   It might be bigger than Cleveland's, but greater is not a term I would use.  Sorry.

If you couldn't figure out that was sarcasm, I honestly feel bad for you. 

Jesus Christ, I would have paid money to see you in court. That had to be hilarious.

[Dutch Oven]

12 hours ago, ballpeen said:

It shouldn't.  The stadium isn't very good.  It was built in haste and on the cheap.  It's kind of like a medium level builders spec home.  It's OK for 20 years, then things start falling apart.

I would love to see the plans for the OTHER ideas they had for the stadium, because the rumor was that the one they picked was basically the most generic one. 

[Dutch Oven]

20 hours ago, The Gipper said:

No, it doesn't matter a cabbage fart what those guys did....IF the Haslam's and the league were to get what they want.

Now...IF there were to be a new stadium, could they settle for something less than what they want?  Sure. They could look at scaling thing down, because they can't get what they want.   But it has nothing to do with what these other teams do.   The "other" teams that are the models for what NFL owners likely will want in the future are the ones I previously mentioned....Cowboys/Pats/LA etc......the ones with a lot of developable land. 

Basically, if examples that refute Gipper's argument are found, they are not important and should be disregarded. 

Maybe Tour is on to something... 

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Maybe Tour is on to something... 

It's your time... do with it as you will.

[The Gipper]

15 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

If you couldn't figure out that was sarcasm, I honestly feel bad for you. 

Jesus Christ, I would have paid money to see you in court. That had to be hilarious.

OK.  No, I didn't catch that it was sarcasm, as there are people that sing the praises of Atlanta.  To me, its just OK.

And you CAN pay money to see me in court.   I can send you my court schedule if you would like. Doylestown Mayor's Court. Not far from Canal Fulton.

(and please....recognize this as sarcasm....for as my magisterial duties are concerned, you can see that for free....but otherwise, yes, you would have to pay dearly)

[The Gipper]

15 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Basically, if examples that refute Gipper's argument are found, they are not important and should be disregarded. 

Maybe Tour is on to something... 

Not saying they should be disregarded....but, I am telling you those are NOT the trend,  and they are NOT really what the NFL and a lot of their owners want.  Do they "settle" for a small footprint stadium arrangement?   Sure they do, as I said, in situations where they are getting the vast public subsidies to build these stadiums. Those particular owners decided not to go with the Kraft/Jones/Kroenke/York/Khan model because they wanted the easy way in.  And could the Haslam's "settle" for the easy way in as well?  Sure, if they don't want to go through the work and process of doing it the newer way.   But I believe ab initio, their primary goal IS to explore doing it by the mega-development method...because "your" way is now just really the "settle" method of doing it.   The Haslams have the money to at least consider privately financing their development.     Buffet paid 2.76 Billion for just a 38.6% share of Pilot.   By 2023 he will purchase a stake in company to where he will be 80% owner, with the Haslam's owning the rest.  That could be another 4 billion in Haslam's pocket. More than enough to start financing a megadevelopment if they wanted.  With that kind of ready cash that will be available to them soon...and seeing the Pats/Rams/Cowboys etc model out there.....why oh why would they just settle?

So, again, you may be right. Maybe the Haslam's will settle....as the NFL has always in the past really relied on the taxpayer footing their facility bills, and maybe that temptation to blackmail the city again for the big money they can get out of all us will be there.  It has been a proven tactic of success for the NFL owners in the past.  But now there is another mode in the way of doing things...where, while it may cost them a lot more to do private financing, the ultimate return may be vastly higher than even when they have someone else paying for things.  After all, if a city is financing YOUR business facility, they are going to want a big cut in return.  

And, no, you don't want to conclude that Tour is on to something.  His method is just to be a little cunny and run and hide from any reasonable argument.  You at least stand your ground. 

[mjp28]

45 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

OK.  No, I didn't catch that it was sarcasm, as there are people that sing the praises of Atlanta.  To me, its just OK.

And you CAN pay money to see me in court.   I can send you my court schedule if you would like. Doylestown Mayor's Court. Not far from Canal Fulton.

(and please....recognize this as sarcasm....for as my magisterial duties are concerned, you can see that for free....but otherwise, yes, you would have to pay dearly)

I think that begins with "your honor I".........

If that would ever happen to anyone here maybe you could give us a BROWNS BOARD discount, eh ?

[hoorta]

16 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I would love to see the plans for the OTHER ideas they had for the stadium, because the rumor was that the one they picked was basically the most generic one. 

In part true. We'll  use a cookie cutter  plan because the architectural guys already  had something  similar,  and it cuts down on  costs. BUT, the plan also was to keep the "feel" of the old stadium  as much as possible,  resulting in  my major  gripe about the  place. The inadequate room behind the  stands relative to any "modern" stadium.  If you've  ever been to  Ford Field, Lucas Oil, or Paul Brown  you know  what  I'm  talking about.  

16 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

If you couldn't figure out that was sarcasm, I honestly feel bad for you. 

Jesus Christ, I would have paid money to see you in court. That had to be hilarious.

Sorry  Dutch your sarcasm comes through  very poorly the majority  of the time. Gipper  isn't the only one who doesn't  see it.  

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

His method is just to be a little cunny and run and hide from any reasonable argument.

Oh, Gipper...

You're the only one here who thinks any of your arguments are reasonable.

[The Gipper]

16 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Oh, Gipper...

You're the only one here who thinks any of your arguments are reasonable.

Surprised you even saw that comment.  

Who among us here has won court cases with reasonable arguments?   If you take off your bridal veil of prejudice,  You clearly would see that my arguments are perfectly reasonable on this matter, because, in reality,  from my experience, the best argument is that in which the full force of the facts are on your side.  And the full force of the facts ARE on my side on this:   Many of the NFL owners are going full guns on the mega-development model for their stadiums...they are going fully into wanting largely private/public partnership  funded facilities that can put them into the category as "project developers" as it does "NFL team owners".   And, as I said, where they have not done that, those owners were still far more willing to slurp from the public money trough than their brethren who had more foresight into the future.