Bold idea that would change the landscape of sports in Cleveland

[Gorka]

There are only 10 NFL stadiums with either a fixed or retractable dome.

Only 3 of those are in northern cities. Figure that one out.

We don't need no stinkin roof.

[ballpeen]

4 minutes ago, Flugel said:

I prefer old school football at all times too! 

I like where you are trying to go in this thread about the Lakefront in between all the bullshit you're getting.   I grew up (as debatable as that is) in Western, NY. And Buffalo is as close as it gets to the type of City Cleveland is.  They had the steel mills and they have a Lakefront.  Since the year 2000, they have been upgrading the lakefront to get people to want to go there.  People really like going there today; because of the reasons (plural) they added to do so. 

Once upon a time, going to Cleveland and partying in the flats was a blast - especially for Browns fans visiting from out of town.  Since that changed, I see some untapped opportunity on the lakefront.

Back to the retractable roof idea, if we had one during the Playoff Game Brian Sipe threw an INT vrs the Raiders - it would have changed everything about the way this franchise is perceived since the Superbowls started.  Don Cockroft was missing 30 yard FGs into the wind in pre-game warm-ups to get an idea of how impactful the weather conditions were on that outcome. Today's game is even more dependent on the passing game than it was when we had an NFL MVP at QB.  All of the rules dictating this have opened me up to the unthinkable idea of football under a roof in December and January might be the way to go.  And when you're never winning at least half your games - good luck getting new millennials and females excited about getting off the couch for below zero wind chills....

 

You know Flug….old time football, was over in early December.  Championships  before Christmas.

 

I keep seeing people say that.  My stock answer is if Football was meant to be played in cold crappy weather, why are all the college bowl games played in places like Pasadena, Miami, Tampa, Mobile, Dallas, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Tempe?

 

The answer is nobody would have gone if they were played in places like Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Green Bay, Fargo.

 

The Fargo Bowl obviously never took off.  The Sugar Bowl in New Orleans beat them out by a large margin.

[Tour2ma]

7 minutes ago, Gorka said:

Only 3 of those are in northern cities. Figure that one out.

Easy... Heat+Humidity.

[Gorka]

 

Cleveland is the second most poorest major city in the US, and the idea is higher taxes??

 

[ballpeen]

It's totally stupid....I mean stupid to have a facility that hosts  10 games a year and maybe a few soccer events and 3-4 concerts a year.

 

Like I said, cheap non-forward thinkers rule.   You are the same cheap bastards that ran our team out of town 25 years ago.  You will probably do it again.  Good for you.

 

Dumb.  Just keep going to Wal-mart,  Get the cheap ass dress shirt than never fits right, itches, and looks as cheap as a $10 whore, but hey, it only cost $14.

[Gorka]

20 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Easy... Heat+Humidity.

Football is played in the fall and winter, but yes, I did overlook the advantage of having of a dome for summertime events.

Good point.

[ballpeen]

7 minutes ago, Gorka said:

 

Cleveland is the second most poorest major city in the US, and the idea is higher taxes??

 

You would have been better to say the second poorest city, but hey, you prove my point.

[Gorka]

25 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

You would have been better to say the second poorest city, but hey, you prove my point.

LOL..Well yes and no.

No it would not have been better for me to say that because Cleveland is not the second poorest city in the US,  it is the second poorest MAJOR city in the US.  There are many cities poorer than Cleveland, but hey, I got your point about the unintended double comparative.

 

[SdBacker80]

20 minutes ago, Gorka said:

 

Cleveland is the second most poorest major city in the US, and the idea is higher taxes??

 

And at the end of the day that’s just a small part of the equation.

do city leaders see this as a need?  Some will go on Political soapboxes denying the need for it and gaining votes for re-election on the issue (happened in San Diego)

 

will ownership pay the costs or some of the costs and what are there expectations?  If the Haslems Or Dolans expect the city of Cleveland to cover 100% of the costs- its a much harder sell. 

[Dutch Oven]

15 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

It's totally stupid....I mean stupid to have a facility that hosts  10 games a year and maybe a few soccer events and 3-4 concerts a year.

 

Like I said, cheap non-forward thinkers rule.   You are the same cheap bastards that ran our team out of town 25 years ago.  You will probably do it again.  Good for you.

 

Dumb.  Just keep going to Wal-mart,  Get the cheap ass dress shirt than never fits right, itches, and looks as cheap as a $10 whore, but hey, it only cost $14.

The rumblings that the Haslam's want an upgrade seem to be there. They are flush with Pilot J Warren Buffet money, and if a new Browns stadium is built, I can't see them going with another open-air stadium, since the one they have now is 21 years old. It would have to be off the lakefront, since they would play at First Energy while the other stadium is built. Opening up more of the lakefront, while getting a domed stadium that would attract events to Cleveland seems like a win-win to me. I'm guessing if Gilbert is talking about this publicly - hypothetically or not - that he and the Haslams may have had some kind of discussions. (Not saying anything concrete, just that the idea has been floated with some of the cities big hitters)

Who knows if any of this will come to fruition, but it makes for interesting offseason fodder, doesn't it? Well, for most people, anyways. 

[Dutch Oven]

7 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

And at the end of the day that’s just a small part of the equation.

do city leaders see this as a need?  Some will go on Political soapboxes denying the need for it and gaining votes for re-election on the issue (happened in San Diego)

 

will ownership pay the costs or some of the costs and what are there expectations?  If the Haslems Or Dolans expect the city of Cleveland to cover 100% of the costs- its a much harder sell. 

Your second part would be HUGE regarding the viability of this idea. 

I said it before, I don't think Cleveland ever builds another Indians ballpark. I think that franchise's next ballpark will be in another city. 

[mjp28]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

Your second part would be HUGE regarding the viability of this idea. 

I said it before, I don't think Cleveland ever builds another Indians ballpark. I think that franchise's next ballpark will be in another city. 

You must have watched Major League even more times than I have.  

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I think "if" most said no dome is because most people go on the cheap and don't think ahead.  The city of Cleveland has already run the Browns out of town once because they were cheap.

 

Build the Dome.  All new stadiums get a superbowl.  That would pump hundreds of millions in to the local economy.  It isn't about being a wimp.  It about not being a dumbass.

 

Someone mentioned the Wolstein center....maybe we could build the Browns new stadium there.  Maybe not.  It would depends on the property footprint.  Football stadiums need a larger footprint.  You would also have to consider near by parking.  If you get 30,000 to a baseball game, you might need parking for 17,000 cars or possibly less.  For a football game with 65,000, you might need parking for 30,000 cars.

The Wolstein Center belongs to CSU. You are not touching it unless you get CSU to give up their arena, and why should they do that? They don't need a bigger arena.  They don't draw that much.

[Dutch Oven]

9 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

The Wolstein Center belongs to CSU. You are not touching it unless you get CSU to give up their arena, and why should they do that? They don't need a bigger arena.  They don't draw that much.

That's why, it is too big. No reason for CSU to have an arena that sits 13,000 or so people. Apparently there are rumors (?) that CSU would like to rid themselves of that arena. 

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, ballpeen said:

No chirping here.  You have to raise taxes.  It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.  That is why I would be more in favor of not doing anything with the Jake.  Maybe a few upgrades or something like that.  It is still useful.  We wouldn't need 2 domed stadiums, and unlike football which is enjoyable 
inside" baseball in domes sucks. So if the Wolstein property can handle the stadium and parking surge, that would be where to build the new stadium.

 

So, how to pay?

 

First, I would bump the county room tax a few bucks a night on hotel stays.  Make a lot of out of towners help pay for the thing.

Then, gas tax is always a money maker.  A few cents there.

The property on the lakefront that is going to be developed.  The county could designate it a way that all development pays a special 20 year tax for the stadium fund.  After all, the stadium moving is what opened things up for the developers and business operations that will be flocking there.

 

Get all counties who border on Cuyahoga pay something.  Boost room taxes and or gasoline tax.  If they don't agree,  boost parking rates on all parking lots by $5 a day.  The county gives all county residents a special decal for their vehicle giving them a $5 a day discount on parking in county parking lots.  Neighboring counties are crazy if they don't benefit. from the Browns.  I spend about half my nights up there in Medina county.  Usually a night or two in Vermilion...not sure of that county...Vermilion I guess.

 

There is probably some enhancement super fund run by the state.  Boost some state wide tax by a penny and create millions more.

Lot's of people trek across Ohio on the turnpike.  Increase big rig fees by $8 across the state from Pennsylvania to Indiana.  Get some Steelers and Colts fans chipping in.

 

Oh,, then all the events at the new facility.  Put a tax on everything but football.  Got to save myself a buck or two somewhere...lol

 

We could probably come up with a special Dayton area tax...$2 a gallon or something like that.;)

How many NFL stadiums have been built NOT using taxpayer funds?   Several.

The Jerry Dome.  Cowboys

Levi Stadium ...49ers

The Met Life Stadium....Jets/Giants

The new LA stadium....Rams/Chargers

Maybe some others.  Not sure.

Jimmy is getting Billions from Warren Buffet.  Maybe he can build his own dome with some of that money...if it is such a big deal for him.

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Gorka said:

 

Cleveland is the second most poorest major city in the US, and the idea is higher taxes??

 

Fake News

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, The Gipper said:

Jimmy is getting Billions from Warren Buffet.  Maybe he can build his own dome with some of that money...if it is such a big deal for him.

Bingo. That's where I think it could be heading... Not tomorrow, but it wouldn't surprise me that this is in the making by the end of the decade.

[The Gipper]

5 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

That's why, it is too big. No reason for CSU to have an arena that sits 13,000 or so people. Apparently there are rumors (?) that CSU would like to rid themselves of that arena. 

Well, if they do that, they still have to have something to play in. Maybe...they build a big domed stadium.....and attached as a part of it they have a smaller basketball arena.

You know...how Public Hall has Music Hall attached to it.  (where they literally share the same stage). 

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, The Gipper said:

Well, if they do that, they still have to have something to play in. Maybe...they build a big domed stadium.....and attached as a part of it they have a smaller basketball arena.

You know...how Public Hall has Music Hall attached to it.  (where they literally share the same stage). 

Maybe build a smaller arena that fits what they need on Euclid Avenue? That would be pretty cool, since the old Cleveland Arena was on Euclid around E. 37th St. 

It seems like Euclid Avenue around CSU has been fixed up rather nicely in the last few years? (I think?)

[Gorka]

57 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Fake News

Third poorest?

[Bob806]

4 hours ago, ballpeen said:

You know Flug….old time football, was over in early December.  Championships  before Christmas.

 

I keep seeing people say that.  My stock answer is if Football was meant to be played in cold crappy weather, why are all the college bowl games played in places like Pasadena, Miami, Tampa, Mobile, Dallas, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Tempe?

 

The answer is nobody would have gone if they were played in places like Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Green Bay, Fargo.

 

 

College bowl games are a whole different animal. It's a getaway (for most schools), and at one time, a huge reward for a great season. The college/university VIPs aren't going to go freeze, or risk their conference pride in the snow. 

 

 

[hoorta]

6 hours ago, Gorka said:

 

Cleveland is the second most poorest major city in the US, and the idea is higher taxes??

I mentioned it- Cuyahoga County already has the "Sin" tax.   Nickel-Dime higher taxes look just fine to dedicated Browns fans- but OTOH- I prefer to look at it this way, a quick Google search says the population of Northeast Ohio is around 4 million. You can bet at least 2 million of them have never been, or never will go to a Browns game. So they're going to say- why in the hell should we be the ones helping finance a stadium that we'll never set foot in?  

5 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

The rumblings that the Haslam's want an upgrade seem to be there. They are flush with Pilot J Warren Buffet money, and if a new Browns stadium is built, I can't see them going with another open-air stadium, since the one they have now is 21 years old. It would have to be off the lakefront, since they would play at First Energy while the other stadium is built. Opening up more of the lakefront, while getting a domed stadium that would attract events to Cleveland seems like a win-win to me. I'm guessing if Gilbert is talking about this publicly - hypothetically or not - that he and the Haslams may have had some kind of discussions. (Not saying anything concrete, just that the idea has been floated with some of the cities big hitters)

Who knows if any of this will come to fruition, but it makes for interesting offseason fodder, doesn't it? Well, for most people, anyways. 

Gipper already pointed it out- there's several NFL pleasure palaces that were owner financed. The latest being Kroenke out doing Jerry World in LA. FWIW there already was an unfounded rumor of Haslam and Gilbert getting together to build a dome somewhere in the Flats. 

The planned obsolescence of NFL stadiums is crazy. On a private level- Let's build a million dollar house and tear it down 20 years later, so we can build a three million dollar house. Unless and until there's something more concrete about Haslam wanting new digs, it's all just speculation. Don't forget Jimmy already tossed tens of millions of his own money into First Energy Upgrades- so I have to wonder how interested he would be after putting all that cash into the stadium- just to walk away from it a few years later.   

1 hour ago, Bob806 said:

College bowl games are a whole different animal. It's a getaway (for most schools), and at one time, a huge reward for a great season. The college/university VIPs aren't going to go freeze, or risk their conference pride in the snow. 

But- there's that thar Pinstripe Bowl in NYC.    Potato Bowl in Boise too.....  Of course, the number of College Bowl games is out of hand. Anyone remember the memorable Tropical Smoothie Bowl?  Bad Boy Mowers? Cheeze It?  Ten bucks to anyone who can name what city those Bowl games were in without looking.  

[MLD Woody]

A domed stadium is objectively better for the city. We just need a plan to get to one 

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, Gorka said:

Third poorest?

Prove it

[ballpeen]

11 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Your second part would be HUGE regarding the viability of this idea. 

I said it before, I don't think Cleveland ever builds another Indians ballpark. I think that franchise's next ballpark will be in another city. 

Could be.  Attendance figures keep dropping.  During the Thome, Lofton days we would pack in over 3 mil a season.  Now it is nearing half of that at 1.7 mil.  People can blame owners all they want, the team still needs support from the public.  The greater Cleveland population is a tick above 2 million people.  You have to toss out kids who can't go without parents taking them, and some old folks who can't get out.  You can also toss out half a mil for people who couldn't care less about baseball or sports,  but their is still half a million people who can go.  I don't think it unreasonable to get to 4-5 games out of 81 played.  That would push attendance over 2 mil.  Baseball is still fairly inexpensive to attend.

[ballpeen]

10 hours ago, The Gipper said:

The Wolstein Center belongs to CSU. You are not touching it unless you get CSU to give up their arena, and why should they do that? They don't need a bigger arena.  They don't draw that much.

I considered that.  I was just going with proposal in the article.  I clearly don't have all the details.  I am sure there are other tracts of land that could be used.  Even county wide.  Nothing says it would have to be smack downtown.  More and more teams are doing that because you just don't have the space in downtown areas.

[ballpeen]

7 hours ago, Bob806 said:

College bowl games are a whole different animal. It's a getaway (for most schools), and at one time, a huge reward for a great season. The college/university VIPs aren't going to go freeze, or risk their conference pride in the snow. 

 

 

Fair enough.  College season are largely over around Thanksgiving  The weather hasn't turned all that bad in late Nov, early Dec.

[Zombo]

On 2/21/2020 at 5:55 PM, Dutch Oven said:

Apparently Dan Gilbert was on 92.3 this morning, I had just missed his interview when I turned it on at 7:25am... From the interview, which Gilbert talked about the state of downtown Cleveland in relation to it's sports teams, Daryl Ruiter came up with a bold plan... What do you think of it?

1. Tear down CSU's Wolstein Center on the near east side of downtown. It has become somewhat of a white elephant.

2. Build a smaller, more intimate ballpark for the Indians. Think a 32,000-34,000 seat PNC Field. Upper deck that hugs the playing field, unlike Progressive Field. Half the amount of luxury boxes.

3. Tear down Progressive Field, build a new retractable dome for the Browns in its spot. Go after the Super Bowl, NCAA Final Four, Big Ten Championship, etc... 

4. Tear down First Energy Stadium, develop (finally) the lakefront. Haslam has made a point a few times about how much money is poured into the stadium there because the damage it takes from being on the lakefront. This is a great piece of real estate, Cleveland needs to finally take advantage of its lakefront. 

What say you? 

I don't know how you fit an NFL stadium and all of the extra parking in the footprint of Progressive. I don't think this was thought through.

Zombo

[mjp28]

1 hour ago, Zombo said:

I don't know how you fit an NFL stadium and all of the extra parking in the footprint of Progressive. I don't think this was thought through.

Zombo

You don't unless you want to move a freeway or two and the parking for 50,000+++ ?   And why get rid of the Jake to begin with ?

 

[Bob806]

2 hours ago, Zombo said:

I don't know how you fit an NFL stadium and all of the extra parking in the footprint of Progressive. I don't think this was thought through.

Zombo

Well we could revisit history and raise our BP....

Art lied. He couldn't share, wouldn't share and wanted no part of the Gateway Project. 

Of course, the shock wave that followed resulted in some hasty decisions....mandates by the NFL to get our team back, taxpayer/politician woes, etc. 

Let's just hope Cleveland never has to go through something like this again.