Bold idea that would change the landscape of sports in Cleveland

[The Gipper]

Another view from Terminal Tower:

[Dutch Oven]

Those are some seriously cool photos...

The first one is from the 1930s... if you look at Cleveland Stadium - it doesn't have lights yet. They added lights in 1939 I believe. 

I'm kind of intrigued about the Wolstein Center area... the next time I'm in downtown I think I'll venture over and check it out. Seems like an area that if the Browns could buy the arena off of CSU (if CSU is serious about wanting to rid itself of it) that there might be some other older barely used buildings that could be flattened for a new Browns stadium. 

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

Except the Univ. of Minnesota Stadium was, literally a long walk from the Metrodome.  About a mile, mile and a half at most.     (my son worked right across the street from the Minn Stadium for a couple of years....and from his place you could look down the street there and see the Metrodome...or the now US Bank Stadium.  

Ohio Stadium is 145 miles away from First Energy.  So unless you want to alienate a lot of your fans, you shouldn't go that far away....unless, of course, you are trying to court that market, which Haslam probably would want to do as he now owns the soccer team that is there. 

Akron Univerity' s   Infocision Stadium is actually the 3rd largest  college football stadium in Ohio....after only Ohio Stadium, and the old Nippert Stadium where Cincinnati U plays.   And it is new...built in 2009,  and holds 30,000.....which is more than the Chargers have been playing in the last few years;  and it is larger, and closer than the HOF stadium  (22K capacity).   It could be the better alternative...if you felt that there had to be a tear down. 

Nah- I doubt the Haslams would want to downgrade over 30,000 seats for a couple years. That 140 mile drive isn't hateful, I've made it more times than I can count. On one of my Sundays in Columbus (Browns were away) at the German Village Browns Backers Bar- there's a bunch of folks in C-bus who have season tickets to the Browns and make that drive to every home game. 

The Browns drew 20,000+ fans just for an intrasquad scrimmage at OSU, and I'd bet they would draw at least equal to First Energy at Ohio Stadium.  Of course I'd love it for a couple years- it would knock off a cumulative 4 hours of driving for me every home game. 

 

[The Gipper]

27 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Nah- I doubt the Haslams would want to downgrade over 30,000 seats for a couple years. That 140 mile drive isn't hateful, I've made it more times than I can count. On one of my Sundays in Columbus (Browns were away) at the German Village Browns Backers Bar- there's a bunch of folks in C-bus who have season tickets to the Browns and make that drive to every home game. 

The Browns drew 20,000+ fans just for an intrasquad scrimmage at OSU, and I'd bet they would draw at least equal to First Energy at Ohio Stadium.  Of course I'd love it for a couple years- it would knock off a cumulative 4 hours of driving for me every home game. 

 

Well, the Chargers did it, but they went to a town which really had zero interest in them as a football team.

Nevertheless.  Here  is an article that discusses much of what we have been talking about here, and it seems to get at a lot of the issues involved, including the land/airport issue, financing issues, etc.   A lot of NFL stadiums now have their own parking that the teams own, control and profit from. They are also doing a lot of accompanying development....hotels, etc.  That is the deal in Dallas and in New England.   Those teams have like 300 acres they are "exploiting"  for their uses (football and beyond).   Right now, Cleveland stadium sits on like 35 acres and is bounded by the lake, the railroad, the port......so, yes, it is a constricted site for what the so called NFL Entrepreneurs would want.

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-browns-are-talking-about-a-new-stadium/Content?oid=18496853

This also explains the very very difficult situation with the airport:   the FAA controls what happens to it, not the city.    It says it would take 20 years for that airport to be closed....and even then, it could not be give over to private development. 

So, go find a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland.   You can't. 

In checking with some

[The Gipper]

So, here you go:     331 acres for sale in Trumbull Co.  Only 50 miles from downtown Cleveland (not much further than the 49ers are from SFO)

https://www.landsofamerica.com/property/331-acres-in-Trumbull-County-Ohio/7142666/

[The Gipper]

The more I think about it the more I believe that the NFL owners want those stadiums to be located in places where they can have like 300 acres so they can have their stadium their development in their parking. They also don’t really want public transportation to the stadiums because that would force everyone to drive there and pay whatever the rate is they would want to Charge for parking. 50 bucks 100 bucks whatever. Plus the hotels and shopping etc. etc. they don’t just want to make money off the games and concessions. They want to make money on all this other stuff. 

[hoorta]

22 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Well, the Chargers did it, but they went to a town which really had zero interest in them as a football team.

Nevertheless.  Here  is an article that discusses much of what we have been talking about here, and it seems to get at a lot of the issues involved, including the land/airport issue, financing issues, etc.   A lot of NFL stadiums now have their own parking that the teams own, control and profit from. They are also doing a lot of accompanying development....hotels, etc.  That is the deal in Dallas and in New England.   Those teams have like 300 acres they are "exploiting"  for their uses (football and beyond).   Right now, Cleveland stadium sits on like 35 acres and is bounded by the lake, the railroad, the port......so, yes, it is a constricted site for what the so called NFL Entrepreneurs would want.

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-browns-are-talking-about-a-new-stadium/Content?oid=18496853

This also explains the very very difficult situation with the airport:   the FAA controls what happens to it, not the city.    It says it would take 20 years for that airport to be closed....and even then, it could not be give over to private development. 

So, go find a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland.   You can't. 

You replied  before I  could  edit  my post. Only in regard to the Chargers  playing in a  dinky 20,000 seat  venue. There's a  humongous difference  between that and the Browns.  A 30,000 seat stadium wouldn't  work, and here's  why. I'd be willing to  bet  the ranch Cleveland has far more than  30,000 season tickets accounted for.  The 100 level at First Energy is completely  sold out. 

The last thing in the world you'd want to do is tell any season ticket holder that you're  shut out of getting tickets to the game.  Give that scenario,  you can be sure those on the lower rungs of the seniority ladder would almost certainly  opt to drive a couple  hours to the games, instead of being shut out. 

[SdBacker80]

5 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Is that really it....they just do video games?   I kind of gave up golf about 20 years ago....but I could consider getting into it again....just for the camaraderie aspects.  About the same for bowling.  I put my money now into travel, and I take my walks in parks. 

I also think that the whole idea of Tiger getting  minorities heavily involved in golf also went up in smoke.  Oh, there was some of it....not as much as expected.

I don’t know but I know a lot millennials that like to play video games.

Maybe it is the time commitment.  

i know I love to golf when I have 4/5 hours on a weekend which is rare these days  
 

[TexasAg1969]

2 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

i know I love to golf when I have 4/5 hours on a weekend which is rare these days 

Golf is only good if you have a bonus set aside for longest club throw after burning worms or nailing fish.🔥🐛🏌️‍♂️🐟🏆🤑

[Dutch Oven]

5 hours ago, The Gipper said:

So, go find a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland.   You can't. 

Since you don't want a domed stadium, you are muddying the waters of this conversation to say that it is impossible to find anywhere in the city limits of a city that has lost well over half its population since 1950 by now saying that you would need a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland. 

How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field? 

[Bob806]

19 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Since you don't want a domed stadium, you are muddying the waters of this conversation to say that it is impossible to find anywhere in the city limits of a city that has lost well over half its population since 1950 by now saying that you would need a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland. 

How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field? 

The City of Cleveland has poured quite a bit of $$ into downtown under the Frank Jackson regime. They've been ultra criticized for this, as the neighborhoods have been ignored, safety forces budgets slashed, snow plows under-maintained, etc. 

So pardon the pun, but it's truly a "political football" that he (Jackson) will want to avoid. If Haslam wants a new home in time, he may turn to the Cuyahoga County Council instead. 

I believe the Browns are locked into Berea through 2039. So there's plenty of time....

[Nero]

On 2/22/2020 at 7:12 PM, Dutch Oven said:

Interesting... Like I've said before, I prefer cold weather football outdoors. 

But I also understand that the city of Cleveland is possibly missing out on a lot of events - events that for example cold weather cities like Indianapolis or Minneapolis get - because they don't have a retractable dome football stadium. 

Plus, it's about time Cleveland does something with their lakefront. 

I think the same. Question being if would they open the roof during cold (playoffs?) games... 

[mjp28]

13 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Another view from Terminal Tower:

I remember Cleveland from the 50s and 60s when my aunt and uncle lived in Parma and many visits some by train up to Cleveland to watch the Indians.  I always thought that it was a chopped up "busy" city by the lake but I was younger.

Cleveland was also based around industry and the rails that serviced them then add in the freeway network and the words "greenfield site" don't exactly pop up.  Unless you bulldoze a few big neighborhoods for a stadium and parking a true Cleveland site might be very hard to do.

Cleveland in the 50s and 60s was one busy place !

[The Gipper]

4 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

I remember Cleveland from the 50s and 60s when my aunt and uncle lived in Parma and many visits some by train up to Cleveland to watch the Indians.  I always thought that it was a chopped up "busy" city by the lake but I was younger.

Cleveland was also based around industry and the rails that serviced them then add in the freeway network and the words "greenfield site" don't exactly pop up.  Unless you bulldoze a few big neighborhoods for a stadium and parking a true Cleveland site might be very hard to do.

Cleveland in the 50s and 60s was one busy place !

Exactly.  And where are you going to do that?   In what they call Asia town? 

[hoorta]

9 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Golf is only good if you have a bonus set aside for longest club throw after burning worms or nailing fish.🔥🐛🏌️‍♂️🐟🏆🤑

I've never verified it,  but I'm pretty sure I  still hold the University of Dayton tennis  team  record for a racquet toss.  Over two courts and a 20' tall pine tree.  Needless to say I was more than slightly  honked off. Little surprise my favorite tennis  pro  was John McEnroe.  Besides being a  leftie like me, we shared the same attitude,  and even preferred the same racquet- a Wilson ProStaff.  

Golf? Yeah, I  wrapped a few clubs around trees. It's why I quit golf. 

[TexasAg1969]

2 hours ago, hoorta said:

I've never verified it,  but I'm pretty sure I  still hold the University of Dayton tennis  team  record for a racquet toss.  Over two courts and a 20' tall pine tree.  Needless to say I was more than slightly  honked off. Little surprise my favorite tennis  pro  was John McEnroe.  Besides being a  leftie like me, we shared the same attitude,  and even preferred the same racquet- a Wilson ProStaff.  

Golf? Yeah, I  wrapped a few clubs around trees. It's why I quit golf. 

Interesting. I play with a Wilson Pro-Staff Lite racquetball racquet. Fortunately it has a sting that wraps around my wrist and I'm too cheap to risk breaking it by slamming a wall.🎾

EDIT: BTW the most frustrating thing that can happen to you in golf is a ball rollout from the cup whereas the greatest thing that can happen to you in RB is a ball rollout from the corners. LOL!😁

[Browns149]

On 2/24/2020 at 1:58 PM, The Gipper said:

 

I a guessing that Millenials just don't like to play golf as much as older generations. 

That’s because the game is too hard and It takes way to long for them to be away from their phones

I love golfing. If I could be any pro athlete it would be golf, hands down. 
 

Almost always great weather. Big money, if you’re good and all the places they play are the top courses in the world

[Browns149]

Just saw on Cleveland.com. Some people want to put a outlet mall in the Muni lot.  
 

LMAO

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020/02/is-cleveland-owned-property-along-the-shoreway-a-good-site-for-an-outlet-mall-some-members-of-city-council-are-wary.html

 

[Tour2ma]

30 minutes ago, Browns149 said:

Just saw on Cleveland.com. Some people want to put a outlet mall in the Muni lot. 

Sounds like free parking and a warm place to gather in December...

[SdBacker80]

4 hours ago, Browns149 said:

That’s because the game is too hard and It takes way to long for them to be away from their phones

I love golfing. If I could be any pro athlete it would be golf, hands down. 
 

Almost always great weather. Big money, if you’re good and all the places they play are the top courses in the world

And you can play at an older age and not walk away from it crippled 

[Browns149]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

And you can play at an older age and not walk away from it crippled 

Plus there is an over 50 tour. Even easier courses on tropical islands. 

[Browns149]

5 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Sounds like free parking and a warm place to gather in December...

Free parking on land owned by the city WILL NEVER HAPPEN

[TexasAg1969]

12 hours ago, Browns149 said:

I love golfing. If I could be any pro athlete it would be golf, hands down. 
 

Just f'n shoot me. Hate that game. I like the one I'm still playing nearing 73 where a mishit can be the best shot of the day.🤡

This looks like a highlight on the rare occasions I tried this game in my 30's. They aren't tossing their clubs enough though.🤣

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-symantec-ext_onb&hsimp=yhs-ext_onb&hspart=symantec&p=mishit+golf+shot#id=1&vid=a42a84cac8c51036c8861707a25069f6&action=click

[Flugel]

22 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Since you don't want a domed stadium, you are muddying the waters of this conversation to say that it is impossible to find anywhere in the city limits of a city that has lost well over half its population since 1950 by now saying that you would need a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland. 

How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field? 

Gipper's cell phone has been invaded by crickets.  We're sorry for any inconvenience this has caused.  

[Dutch Oven]

14 hours ago, Browns149 said:

That’s because the game is too hard and It takes way to long for them to be away from their phones

That or the millennials that would most likely take up golf are too busy paying off student loans that they most likely will be paying off until they die, and don't have tons of "fun" money to chase around a little white ball with a stick.  

[Dutch Oven]

46 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Gipper's cell phone has been invaded by crickets.  We're sorry for any inconvenience this has caused.  

From what I have gathered - and anyone who can confirm or refute this please do - the ENTIRE Gateway complex takes up 27 acres. 

That includes baseball park that originally sat 43,000, a 20,000 seat arena, a parking deck and all the land in-between. 

But somehow the Browns would have to have 300 acres near or in downtown Cleveland? 

[ballpeen]

Is the Akron Zoo all that viable?  It's a pretty good parcel ..50 acres. I am sure you could buy up 20 more.  I don't like evoking immanent domain laws, but I am sure Akron would like the business and would do what is best over the long haul.

 

Medina county has several locations.  Avon in Lorain country is pretty wide open in spots.  The Atlanta Braves have a beautiful complex north of Atlanta.

 

That is the script teams want to follow.  Own the land, lease to those wanting to be near by. Sure Mr. Marriott, I can land lease you 5 acres for 20 years with 5 year options after that to build a beautiful hotel.  That is how you pay for the thing as a private development.  A owner isn't going to simply build a stadium unless he or she has a way to make money on the deal.  You guys aren't children or stupid.  None of you are going to build a house that you aren't going to get your money plus some back.  At least knowingly.  They want it to be a gathering spot above the 8 crappy home gams a year.  Make it the place people want to go year round.

Akron isn't the best example....Avon in Lorain county is where I would look.  I see lots of land on 90 just past the Westlake line.  

[Dutch Oven]

2 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

Akron isn't the best example....Avon in Lorain county is where I would look.  I see lots of land on 90 just past the Westlake line.  

Lorain County? Yikes.

At least the Cavs were smart enough to put their arena in the middle of nowhere centrally located between Cleveland and Akron. 

[ballpeen]

1 minute ago, Dutch Oven said:

From what I have gathered - and anyone who can confirm or refute this please do - the ENTIRE Gateway complex takes up 27 acres. 

That includes baseball park that originally sat 43,000, a 20,000 seat arena, a parking deck and all the land in-between. 

But somehow the Browns would have to have 300 acres near or in downtown Cleveland? 

I agree.   To make it viable as a development for a owner financed deal, you are looking at 80 or so.  You have to understand that is you move out to a somewhat remote location, you will need parking spots available.

[ballpeen]

1 minute ago, Dutch Oven said:

Lorain County? Yikes.

At least the Cavs were smart enough to put their arena in the middle of nowhere centrally located between Cleveland and Akron. 

Why?  Avon Lake is Lorain county.  That is maybe a 15-20 drive from downtown on I90