Bold idea that would change the landscape of sports in Cleveland

[Dutch Oven]

Just now, ballpeen said:

Why?  Avon Lake is Lorain county.  That is maybe a 15-20 drive from downtown on I90

I guess I'm looking at it from someone who now lives in Stark County, and before that Portage County. 

I would hope that if they moved from downtown they would do it somewhere a bit more centrally located than Avon Lake. 

[ballpeen]

We have to face facts.  The days of stadiums, unless they are iconic, don't last 60 years anymore.  Even if iconic they get torn down.  Old Tiger stadium...Yankee stadium was as iconic as it gets.

 

Stadiums these days have a 30 year shelf life if they were built on the cheap like ours..  Ours, which is far from iconic, is what, 21-22 years old?  It's time to start thinking about it.  From planning to development takes 5 years.  

 

If you build a really nice development, you might be able to go 50 years,

 

 

[ballpeen]

3 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I guess I'm looking at it from someone who now lives in Stark County, and before that Portage County. 

I would hope that if they moved from downtown they would do it somewhere a bit more centrally located than Avon Lake. 

I get.  The person living in Avon Lake might say the same if it was developed in  Stark County.  As a season ticket holder who lives in Hamilton county, Tennessee., on the Georgia border, I don't care where they build it.  I already drive 600+ miles to go to 6-7 games a year..  What's a few more?  For me, build it between Columbus and Cleveland.  Mansfield would work for me.

[ballpeen]

Got to go...9am tee time.

[mjp28]

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I guess I'm looking at it from someone who now lives in Stark County, and before that Portage County. 

I would hope that if they moved from downtown they would do it somewhere a bit more centrally located than Avon Lake. 

That's what I picked because of it not being too far away and the cute new name the Cleveland/Avon Lake Browns  not because of any study of cost, availability, transportation or parking.

Buying up property whether through voluntary sales or eminent domain can get to be time consuming and expensive.

Like Dutch mentioned relocating a team out in the boonies miles from the city is not very appealing and last resort stuff .......just ask the SF and NY/NJ fans to mention a few.

[mjp28]

Just another thought on the Rodney Dangerfield's Caddyshack joke about the golf courses and cemeteries being a waste of good real estate they many years ago were located on the outskirts of towns away from everything.

What has happened over time is the cities, towns have grown out and around them particularly the golf courses which would make them the preferred location for a new stadium.  Plus they would have the acreage needed for the stadium and adjacent buildings along with some parking.  Might be cheaper than buying and demolishing blocks of housing.

Oh and I can't imagine what would be involved in relocating a cemetery, kind of like a bad zombie movie.   .    ◾

[TexasAg1969]

32 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

Just another thought on the Rodney Dangerfield's Caddyshack joke about the golf courses and cemeteries being a waste of good real estate they many years ago were located on the outskirts of towns away from everything.

What has happened over time is the cities, towns have grown out and around them particularly the golf courses which would make them the preferred location for a new stadium.  Plus they would have the acreage needed for the stadium and adjacent buildings along with some parking.  Might be cheaper than buying and demolishing blocks of housing.

Oh and I can't imagine what would be involved in relocating a cemetery, kind of like a bad zombie movie.   .    ◾

They should put golf courses on cemeteries with a lot of open holes for graves or balls. Then I might be tempted to play.👻

[mjp28]

31 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

They should put golf courses on cemeteries with a lot of open holes for graves or balls. Then I might be tempted to play.👻

You are a sicko.  Instead of sand traps a 6' deep hole and a ladder ?    

[The Gipper]

How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field? 

The answer is:  I don't know, and it does not matter. If you have been reading the point is not how much ground those stadium's take up....but how much ground does the league and these owners WANT for their operations?    They now want to follow the model set by the Cowboys, Patriots, 49ers, the LA teams, and others.....they want those like 300 acres so they can build a stadium, hotels, shops, parking etc. etc. so that they can garner big, big revenue from all that. They want to become real estate magnates, not just NFL team owners. 

[The Gipper]

4 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

From what I have gathered - and anyone who can confirm or refute this please do - the ENTIRE Gateway complex takes up 27 acres. 

That includes baseball park that originally sat 43,000, a 20,000 seat arena, a parking deck and all the land in-between. 

But somehow the Browns would have to have 300 acres near or in downtown Cleveland? 

YES.  Per their probable demand.  See my previous post.  They might settle for 200 acres.

[The Gipper]

4 hours ago, ballpeen said:

Is the Akron Zoo all that viable?  It's a pretty good parcel ..50 acres. I am sure you could buy up 20 more.  I don't like evoking immanent domain laws, but I am sure Akron would like the business and would do what is best over the long haul.

 

Medina county has several locations.  Avon in Lorain country is pretty wide open in spots.  The Atlanta Braves have a beautiful complex north of Atlanta.

 

That is the script teams want to follow.  Own the land, lease to those wanting to be near by. Sure Mr. Marriott, I can land lease you 5 acres for 20 years with 5 year options after that to build a beautiful hotel.  That is how you pay for the thing as a private development.  A owner isn't going to simply build a stadium unless he or she has a way to make money on the deal.  You guys aren't children or stupid.  None of you are going to build a house that you aren't going to get your money plus some back.  At least knowingly.  They want it to be a gathering spot above the 8 crappy home gams a year.  Make it the place people want to go year round.

Akron isn't the best example....Avon in Lorain county is where I would look.  I see lots of land on 90 just past the Westlake line.  

The Akron Zoo IS viable, so that would not be the location.   I had thought the location where the former Rolling Acres Mall sat would have made a fine location for a Stadium/Arena/retail site.  There was likely enough land there...even is they had to take over some current older commercial areas adjacent to it.   But, Amazon is now putting a distribution center there...and supposedly are going to have 3000 jobs  (I really have my doubts about that).  Then there is the Chapel Hill Mall site, which is likely closing.   Malls are closing at a rate higher than golf courses.  

But, no, Akron would not be the place they would want to go.  Lorain County either.  The whole sin tax thing if you recall was just a Cuyahoga County thing.  I know they would prefer close to downtown, but if not that, they would need to stay in Cuyahoga County.   The old Randall Park Mall could have been a thing, but it too is now an Amazon distribution center. 

There is a place in the south Flats that I saw in a sattellite image.   Near Steelyard Commons, and a golf course next to it called  Washington Learning course.  It looks like there is a huge, huge pile of coal, or some dark material there.   I don't know if that is a landfill, or if it is still a viable manufacturing area.  It is right at the Fleet Ave. intersection with I-77.   See if you can take a look at that.  I wonder if anyone knows anything about it. 

[The Gipper]

4 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I agree.   To make it viable as a development for a owner financed deal, you are looking at 80 or so.  You have to understand that is you move out to a somewhat remote location, you will need parking spots available.

And that is what they want.   I read that Jerry charges $100 just to park at Cowboys games.  And I think they get like 15,000 cars there.  That is $1,500,000  in his pocket before you walk in the door to the stadium. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, mjp28 said:

That's what I picked because of it not being too far away and the cute new name the Cleveland/Avon Lake Browns  not because of any study of cost, availability, transportation or parking.

Buying up property whether through voluntary sales or eminent domain can get to be time consuming and expensive.

Like Dutch mentioned relocating a team out in the boonies miles from the city is not very appealing and last resort stuff .......just ask the SF and NY/NJ fans to mention a few.

There is a lot of land at the Ravenna Arsenal.....but then you may get a number of people blown up in the excavation process as who knows what is buried there.   When you look at it from a satellite view, you see like a thousand of these unusual  formations on that land.  I think they may all be bunkers of some sort.   At one time they had talked about putting a huge Jet port on that property, kind of like the new Denver Airport, but that never happened. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, mjp28 said:

Just another thought on the Rodney Dangerfield's Caddyshack joke about the golf courses and cemeteries being a waste of good real estate they many years ago were located on the outskirts of towns away from everything.

What has happened over time is the cities, towns have grown out and around them particularly the golf courses which would make them the preferred location for a new stadium.  Plus they would have the acreage needed for the stadium and adjacent buildings along with some parking.  Might be cheaper than buying and demolishing blocks of housing.

Oh and I can't imagine what would be involved in relocating a cemetery, kind of like a bad zombie movie.   .    ◾

HIghland Park golf course.....off I-271.   Could look at that at that.  Near the posh side of town:  Beachwood, Shaker Hts. Pepper Pike etc. 

[mjp28]

3 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

And that is what they want.   I read that Jerry charges $100 just to park at Cowboys games.  And I think they get like 15,000 cars there.  That is $1,500,000  in his pocket before you walk in the door to the stadium. 

That's what all owners want concessions, parking and other miscellaneous items helps cover their fixed overhead costs like security, janitorial, ticket takers, etc......and those parking lot attendants.

The big money is in the NFL TV and local radio contracts among others.  It definitely is a rich man's game.

[TexasAg1969]

3 hours ago, mjp28 said:

You are a sicko.  Instead of sand traps a 6' deep hole and a ladder ?    

Just in case I brain the caddie with the thrown club if I miss a putt into a hole that big.🤕

[The Gipper]

3 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Just in case I brain the caddie with the thrown club if I miss a putt into a hole that big.🤕

Who uses a caddy anymore, unless you are a pro?   Are there any golf courses around any more  that even have caddies to carry your clubs for you?  When I did play golf (in the 80s/90s), I never used a caddy, nor do I recall every playing at a course that offered the use of one.   Even the private club I belonged to once upon a time. 

[Browns149]

Not sure if they still do, but last time I was at Westwood CC in Rocky River, they still had caddies

[Dutch Oven]

5 hours ago, The Gipper said:

How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field? 

The answer is:  I don't know, and it does not matter. If you have been reading the point is not how much ground those stadium's take up....but how much ground does the league and these owners WANT for their operations?    They now want to follow the model set by the Cowboys, Patriots, 49ers, the LA teams, and others.....they want those like 300 acres so they can build a stadium, hotels, shops, parking etc. etc. so that they can garner big, big revenue from all that. They want to become real estate magnates, not just NFL team owners. 

Yeah, it does matter. It matters because apparently the owners of the Detroit Lions, Indianapolis Colts, Seattle Seahawks, Minnesota Vikings and Atlanta Falcons all built new stadiums in their respective downtowns, or just outside it, for nothing resembling your 300 acres or 200 acres. 

[hoorta]

10 hours ago, ballpeen said:

1) We have to face facts.  The days of stadiums, unless they are iconic, don't last 60 years anymore.  Even if iconic they get torn down.  Old Tiger stadium...Yankee stadium was as iconic as it gets.

2) Stadiums these days have a 30 year shelf life if they were built on the cheap like ours..  Ours, which is far from iconic, is what, 21-22 years old?  It's time to start thinking about it.  From planning to development takes 5 years.  

3) If you build a really nice development, you might be able to go 50 years,

 

1) & 2) In most cases yes 'Peen- but not in every case!!!  In baseball you have Fenway and Wrigley- both over 100 years old. 5 MLB stadiums in total over 50 years old. Soldier Field was built back in the 20s, before it was renovated. I already gave my 0.02 Arrowhead opened in 1972, and MHO is it's good for at least another 20 years. 

3) I'll comment further on Gipper's post..  

7 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Just another thought on the Rodney Dangerfield's Caddyshack joke about the golf courses and cemeteries being a waste of good real estate they many years ago were located on the outskirts of towns away from everything.

What has happened over time is the cities, towns have grown out and around them particularly the golf courses which would make them the preferred location for a new stadium.  Plus they would have the acreage needed for the stadium and adjacent buildings along with some parking.  Might be cheaper than buying and demolishing blocks of housing.

Oh and I can't imagine what would be involved in relocating a cemetery, kind of like a bad zombie movie.   .    ◾

Some of them (cemeteries) - you can't. For those who have never been- one of the most amazing cemeteries I've ever visited is smack in the middle of downtown Boston, surrounded by skyscrapers. The Granary Burying Ground.  History? The final resting place of Samuel Adams, John Hancock, and Paul Revere among others.  We have our own in Cleveland the Eire Street Cemetery.  

6 hours ago, The Gipper said:

How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field? 

The answer is:  I don't know, and it does not matter. If you have been reading the point is not how much ground those stadium's take up....but how much ground does the league and these owners WANT for their operations?    They now want to follow the model set by the Cowboys, Patriots, 49ers, the LA teams, and others.....they want those like 300 acres so they can build a stadium, hotels, shops, parking etc. etc. so that they can garner big, big revenue from all that. They want to become real estate magnates, not just NFL team owners. 

You and Ballpeen besides myself get it. You want a development like Kraft's Patriot Place. Hotel on site, maybe a movie megaplex, a bunch of restaurants & shops, and a king sized team shop. 

5 hours ago, The Gipper said:

HIghland Park golf course.....off I-271.   Could look at that at that.  Near the posh side of town:  Beachwood, Shaker Hts. Pepper Pike etc. 

Yup, saw that too Gip.    Regarding a racetrack- how about Northfield Park?   Would the NFL tolerate a Casino on site? I can't tell whats just north of the racetrack though.   

24 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Yeah, it does matter. It matters because apparently the owners of the Detroit Lions, Indianapolis Colts, Seattle Seahawks, Minnesota Vikings and Atlanta Falcons all built new stadiums in their respective downtowns, or just outside it, for nothing resembling your 300 acres or 200 acres. 

We're just saying that model is going out of style if the owner wants to maximize his profit potential. Latest example is Kronke's SoFi stadium built away from LA on an old racetrack. 

Indy HAD to build downtown. And please get real, there's no comparison between downtown Atlanta and Chicago to Cleveland.  There's really no option in downtown Cleveland short of demolishing an entire neighborhood. We've already said it- find us a suitable location near downtown that's 1,500' X 1,500' that you can clear out, oh and have adequate traffic access to.  

That link Gipper posted did have a very suitable location- Burke Lakefront Airport. But as the article pointed out, there's tons of government red tape involved to close a working airport. 

 

[Dutch Oven]

24 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Indy HAD to build downtown. And please get real, there's no comparison between downtown Atlanta and Chicago to Cleveland. 

Why did the Indianapolis Colts HAVE to build downtown? 

What do you mean there's no comparison between downtown Atlanta and Chicago to Cleveland? 

The NFL model according to you and Gipper is to have 300 acres in the middle of nowhere with the exception of all the teams that have done exactly the opposite of that, two of those teams being the Vikings and Falcons, who opened their downtown, or near downtown domed stadiums in 2016 and 2017 respectively. . 

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, Browns149 said:

Not sure if they still do, but last time I was at Westwood CC in Rocky River, they still had caddies

I hired caddies at Glen Eagles (Scotland) and Carnoustie. Well worth the splurge...

On this side of the pond used a caddy one time when I played Kirtland Country Club. My companies' President was a member. Really nice layout and very challenging.

[ballpeen]

3 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Who uses a caddy anymore, unless you are a pro?   Are there any golf courses around any more  that even have caddies to carry your clubs for you?  When I did play golf (in the 80s/90s), I never used a caddy, nor do I recall every playing at a course that offered the use of one.   Even the private club I belonged to once upon a time. 

We have a course in Ooltewah, just north of town where using a caddy is mandatory.   The Honors Course.  It's a little steep for my blood to be a member...$35,000 to join. Never asked my friends about the monthly.  One did let out he was buying lunch because he was behind on his $4500 a year club dining fee.  Each member has to spend $4500 a year in the dining room.  Not just buying beers and things in the mens lounge.  They maintain a good chef and staff.  If they don't spend it, they get a bill for the unused portion. I do have several friends who are members so I get to play out there maybe 10 times a year.  The recommended minimum tip to the caddy is $80 per bag.

[ballpeen]

7 hours ago, The Gipper said:

And that is what they want.   I read that Jerry charges $100 just to park at Cowboys games.  And I think they get like 15,000 cars there.  That is $1,500,000  in his pocket before you walk in the door to the stadium. 

I was just reading a Cowboys message board at it said $30-$60, though I am not sure it was in a premium lot next to the stadium.  Some said if you can walk a mile or two it wasn't bad.  

 

My wife doesn't like to walk far.  When she comes I don't park in the flats for $15...I think it went up to that this past season.  Just up top, at least early in the season I paid $50.  It dropped to $40 later in the season.  It had been $30 for years.

 

I read somewhere the Cowboys were getting $100 for the Superbowl...well, why not?  Parking is probably relative to ticket prices.  If you can really afford a ticket to the Superbowl, you can fork over another $100 to park the car.

[ballpeen]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

Yeah, it does matter. It matters because apparently the owners of the Detroit Lions, Indianapolis Colts, Seattle Seahawks, Minnesota Vikings and Atlanta Falcons all built new stadiums in their respective downtowns, or just outside it, for nothing resembling your 300 acres or 200 acres. 

Not only that, if they financed the deal and has little to no public money involved, owners aren't stupid people.  They are mega good at business.

 

They aren't going to risk several billion if there isn't a payback that makes sense.

[TexasAg1969]

4 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Who uses a caddy anymore, unless you are a pro?   Are there any golf courses around any more  that even have caddies to carry your clubs for you?  When I did play golf (in the 80s/90s), I never used a caddy, nor do I recall every playing at a course that offered the use of one.   Even the private club I belonged to once upon a time. 

Trumpy does.

[mjp28]

I'm very curious if any of the BROWNS press or FO ever read any of The BROWNS BOARD or any of the other boards posts ?

They might find them quite informative or helpful.

I think there are some pretty interesting ideas here.   

[ballpeen]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

1) & 2) In most cases yes 'Peen- but not in every case!!!  In baseball you have Fenway and Wrigley- both over 100 years old. 5 MLB stadiums in total over 50 years old. Soldier Field was built back in the 20s, before it was renovated. I already gave my 0.02 Arrowhead opened in 1972, and MHO is it's good for at least another 20 years. 

3) I'll comment further on Gipper's post..  

Some of them (cemeteries) - you can't. For those who have never been- one of the most amazing cemeteries I've ever visited is smack in the middle of downtown Boston, surrounded by skyscrapers. The Granary Burying Ground.  History? The final resting place of Samuel Adams, John Hancock, and Paul Revere among others.  We have our own in Cleveland the Eire Street Cemetery.  

You and Ballpeen besides myself get it. You want a development like Kraft's Patriot Place. Hotel on site, maybe a movie megaplex, a bunch of restaurants & shops, and a king sized team shop. 

Yup, saw that too Gip.    Regarding a racetrack- how about Northfield Park?   Would the NFL tolerate a Casino on site? I can't tell whats just north of the racetrack though.   

We're just saying that model is going out of style if the owner wants to maximize his profit potential. Latest example is Kronke's SoFi stadium built away from LA on an old racetrack. 

Indy HAD to build downtown. And please get real, there's no comparison between downtown Atlanta and Chicago to Cleveland.  There's really no option in downtown Cleveland short of demolishing an entire neighborhood. We've already said it- find us a suitable location near downtown that's 1,500' X 1,500' that you can clear out, oh and have adequate traffic access to.  

That link Gipper posted did have a very suitable location- Burke Lakefront Airport. But as the article pointed out, there's tons of government red tape involved to close a working airport. 

 

I did say except for iconic places.  I have been to both Wrigley and Fenway.  I wouldn't want to see them torn down.  The reality is besides the history, they aren't good places to see a ball game.  Even by the corner bags you are looking left or right.  The further out the lines you get, the further left or right you are looking.  The seats all face straight as built along the foul lines.

 

I attended a Browns game in Chicago.  Courtney returned a fumble for a TD.  We won the game, until we didn't in a OT pick 6 by Couch.  Ols Solider was a great place, but then I had 2 seats on the 50,  I think 14 rows off the field.  Even there you couldn't see above the players heads on the sideline plays to your side.  You know, a true bowl.  Seats go from pretty close but pretty low to not so high but a mile away.

 

I don't mind staying where we are if we can get a retractable on the thing.  As has been said, I don't think the footprint is large enough and getting the HVAC system would be almost impossible.  You have to be able to cool it down in the summers for concerts and such, and you have to be able to heat it up once the temps start to look like 40's, or rain in any season..

[Dutch Oven]

45 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

Not only that, if they financed the deal and has little to no public money involved, owners aren't stupid people.  They are mega good at business.

 

They aren't going to risk several billion if there isn't a payback that makes sense.

I believe over half of the Vikings dome was paid by the owner. 

Here's the deal: Some teams have built megaplexes outside the city they are named for, some have built new stadiums smack dab in the heart of their respective cities.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. The Browns could very well build a new (most likely domed) stadium inside the city limits, near or in downtown, or they could build outside the city... but I think that if the Haslams continuing owning the Browns, First Energy Stadium will not get another 20 years. 

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

1) Why did the Indianapolis Colts HAVE to build downtown? 

2) What do you mean there's no comparison between downtown Atlanta and Chicago to Cleveland? 

The NFL model according to you and Gipper is to have 300 acres in the middle of nowhere with the exception of all the teams that have done exactly the opposite of that, two of those teams being the Vikings and Falcons, who opened their downtown, or near downtown domed stadiums in 2016 and 2017 respectively. . 

1) Because that's what the Colts wanted, and Irsay kicked in $100 million to sweeten the pot. In the 10 years since Lucas Oil was built the price ($720 million) of a new domed stadium has more than doubled- and along with it the requisite extortion of the paying public. 

2) Are you just being dense? Other than they're all "downtown"? Any similarities end there. I'll leave it at that. 

3) That "model" is what Kroenke is doing in LA, FYI. Following what Jones and Kraft have done to maximize their profits. I'm not saying we literally have to keep up with the (Jerry) Jonses. Haslam isn't going anywhere for several years- until he's nearing the end of his lease anyway, so all this talk is way premature.