Bold idea that would change the landscape of sports in Cleveland

[ballpeen]

Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need.  Then you need to think about parking options.  You can't have available parking two miles away.  You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so..  Baseball and basketball need half of that or less.  The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport.  You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.

 

I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away..  I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars

[mjp28]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need.  Then you need to think about parking options.  You can't have available parking two miles away.  You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so..  Baseball and basketball need half of that or less.  The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport.  You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.

 

I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away..  I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars

True on some carpooling but there's also the other area demands on parking like people going to the bars and hotels that want to be in the area.  And the Jake is next door to the Gund when there's something going on there.

Plus Indians games draw 10 to 30,000 fans a football game would easily double that.  Affordable parking is the #1 complaint or problem wherever you go for big draw venues followed by hotel space.

Where could you put new stadiums unless you tear down and rebuild on site  -or- the sometimes less popular go to a greenfield site far from the city overcrowding and start new with the acres and acres of accessible parking......but you lose the city feel and ambiance of the team.  

The Cleveland Avon Lake Browns !?        

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need.  Then you need to think about parking options.  You can't have available parking two miles away.  You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so..  Baseball and basketball need half of that or less.  The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport.  You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.

 

I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away..  I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars

I did a fairly close aerial inspection (google maps) of Cleveland, and honestly I do not see any footprint big enough to support a stadium and the parking you say is needed.   There may be some old industrial sites in the Flats,  but traffic in and out of there would be a nightmare.  There may be some space south of I480.....but then you are getting into the suburbs.  Or unless you take up valuable park land, which the parks would not give up....and besides, the terrain in those park areas would not be suitable...hill/streams/rivers.    You could maybe find land in Brunswick or Medina County. 

Or...hey, something like this:    take over a golf course and build it there.   Like, say, Sleepy Hollow, or ones near Fairview Park.  Golf courses are going out of business like crazy around here.   The oldest golf course in Summit County is going out. 

[mjp28]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

I did a fairly close aerial inspection (google maps) of Cleveland, and honestly I do not see any footprint big enough to support a stadium and the parking you say is needed.   There may be some old industrial sites in the Flats,  but traffic in and out of there would be a nightmare.  There may be some space south of I480.....but then you are getting into the suburbs.  Or unless you take up valuable park land, which the parks would not give up....and besides, the terrain in those park areas would not be suitable...hill/streams/rivers.    You could maybe find land in Brunswick or Medina County. 

Or...hey, something like this:    take over a golf course and build it there.   Like, say, Sleepy Hollow, or ones near Fairview Park.  Golf courses are going out of business like crazy around here.   The oldest golf course in Summit County is going out. 

What did Rodney Dangerfield say about golf courses and cemeteries, the two biggest wastes of real estate there is.  (Caddyshack)

Golf courses make great housing developments all landscaped out -or- maybe a good starting point for a mega stadium complex with parking !

[hoorta]

13 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

A domed stadium is objectively better for the city. We just need a plan to get to one 

Just an honest question  for you  Woody. Have you ever been to  an NFL game in a Dome? (FWIW, I've been to five different  ones) Sure, you can get more use out of  it, but that's about all. Just my personal  opinion about  watching a  game in a dome. Save your  money, watch the  game at home on your  widescreen. You'll  save a lot of money not having to  buy a ticket,  and the beer is 1\10th the cost.  That's the ambiance, like sitting  in  your living room,  and incidentally there's  an NFL game  going on.  If that's what you prefer by all  means build a  dome. 

I'm not going to  dig them up, but  there's  plenty of  articles by economists that the financial  benefits of shelling out  tons of money  for these stadiums  is vastly overstated.  

7 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I considered that.  I was just going with proposal in the article.  I clearly don't have all the details.  I am sure there are other tracts of land that could be used.  Even county wide.  Nothing says it would have to be smack downtown.  More and more teams are doing that because you just don't have the space in downtown areas.

No space? Exactly  Russ. You'd need gobs of money just to clear a big  enough  footprint in a developed area. See  below.  

1 hour ago, mjp28 said:

True on some carpooling but there's also the other area demands on parking like people going to the bars and hotels that want to be in the area.  And the Jake is next door to the Gund when there's something going on there.

Plus Indians games draw 10 to 30,000 fans a football game would easily double that.  Affordable parking is the #1 complaint or problem wherever you go for big draw venues followed by hotel space.

Where could you put new stadiums unless you tear down and rebuild on site  -or- the sometimes less popular go to a greenfield site far from the city overcrowding and start new with the acres and acres of accessible parking......but you lose the city feel and ambiance of the team.  

The Cleveland Avon Lake Browns !?        

1) Regarding  parking.  You want close in, it's  getting  crazy.  I love Steve's  GNATS Tailgate,  but Burke started charging $40 bucks this year.  I'll  hike from  our under the bridge  lot that's  still  only  $10. If you want really nuts, parking for the Super Bowl at Jerry  World was $100. 

2) Boy do I  have a Greenfield site for you. That will  NEVER happen.  The old Richfield Coliseum property.  Cleveland isn't going to give up the tax revenue,  and collateral gameday revenue  from  parking  and bars. 

Don't  forget the  Sin Tax either. If you build a new  stadium its going to  have to be  somewhere in Cuyahoga county. And probably in  Cleveland. Got any ideas for a depressed area where you could  clear around  a square  mile with decent  road access? Or a golf course?

[The Gipper]

24 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

What did Rodney Dangerfield say about golf courses and cemeteries, the two biggest wastes of real estate there is.  (Caddyshack)

Golf courses make great housing developments all landscaped out -or- maybe a good starting point for a mega stadium complex with parking !

Well, that is just what is happening to a couple of them around here.  Brookside Country Club in Norton, perhaps the oldest golf course in Summit Co. has been sold to real estate developers.

Valley View...gone.   Brandywine CC....gone.  Both Summit Co.     Pine Valley near me  here in Medina Co.  almost suffered the same fate, but apparently the land developer has decided that it will be saved. 

I a guessing that Millenials just don't like to play golf as much as older generations. 

[ATOM]

MT.Scott golf course out here they just shortened the course and built homes around it

[The Gipper]

13 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Just an honest question  for you  Woody. Have you ever been to  an NFL game in a Dome? (FWIW, I've been to five different  ones) Sure, you can get more use out of  it, but that's about all. Just my personal  opinion about  watching a  game in a dome. Save your  money, watch the  game at home on your  widescreen. You'll  save a lot of money not having to  buy a ticket,  and the beer is 1\10th the cost.  That's the ambiance, like sitting  in  your living room,  and incidentally there's  an NFL game  going on.  If that's what you prefer by all  means build a  dome. 

I'm not going to  dig them up, but  there's  plenty of  articles by economists that the financial  benefits of shelling out  tons of money  for these stadiums  is vastly overstated.  

No space? Exactly  Russ. You'd need gobs of money just to clear a big  enough  footprint in a developed area. See  below.  

1) Regarding  parking.  You want close in, it's  getting  crazy.  I love Steve's  GNATS Tailgate,  but Burke started charging $40 bucks this year.  I'll  hike from  our under the bridge  lot that's  still  only  $10. If you want really nuts, parking for the Super Bowl at Jerry  World was $100. 

2) Boy do I  have a Greenfield site for you. That will  NEVER happen.  The old Richfield Coliseum property.  Cleveland isn't going to give up the tax revenue,  and collateral gameday revenue  from  parking  and bars. 

Don't  forget the  Sin Tax either. If you build a new  stadium its going to  have to be  somewhere in Cuyahoga county. And probably in  Cleveland. Got any ideas for a depressed area where you could  clear around  a square  mile with decent  road access? Or a golf course?

The Richfield Coliseum site is now owned by the Cuyahoga Valley NP, and will never be developed that way again.    That is not to say that there aren't many other privately owned sites with as much space around the outer rim of Cleveland that could be looked at. 

Think about all the teams that carry the name of a city....that don't play in that city:   Both NY teams.   Buffalo Bills.  Washington Redskins.  Miami Dolphins.  I believe that the new "LA" stadium will not actually be in LA, will it?   San Francisco 49ers play 40 miles from SFO.   Maybe some other.  And, of course don't foget the "regional named teams":  New England, Minnesota, Tennessee, Arizona, Carolina.

[The Gipper]

2 minutes ago, ATOM said:

MT.Scott golf course out here they just shortened the course and built homes around it

Where is "here" again?

[ATOM]

2 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Where is "here" again?

Portland Oregon

[hoorta]

27 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

The Richfield Coliseum site is now owned by the Cuyahoga Valley NP, and will never be developed that way again.    That is not to say that there aren't many other privately owned sites with as much space around the outer rim of Cleveland that could be looked at. 

Think about all the teams that carry the name of a city....that don't play in that city:   Both NY teams.   Buffalo Bills.  Washington Redskins.  Miami Dolphins.  I believe that the new "LA" stadium will not actually be in LA, will it?   San Francisco 49ers play 40 miles from SFO.   Maybe some other.  And, of course don't foget the "regional named teams":  New England, Minnesota, Tennessee, Arizona, Carolina.

Didn't realize the National Park acquired the Richfield site Gipper.  Regarding the new Rams digs SoFi Stadium- it's in Inglewood, southwest of LA.   

Taking a quick look at satellite imagery of the Cleveland area- it's slim pickings to find open land. Highland Golf Course, and nothing until you get way out on the SW side near La Grange or Medina.  Plenty of Parks- which are off limits to development. 

[The Gipper]

3 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Didn't realize the National Park acquired the Richfield site Gipper.  Regarding the new Rams digs SoFi Stadium- it's in Inglewood, southwest of LA.   

Taking a quick look at satellite imagery of the Cleveland area- it's slim pickings to find open land. Highland Golf Course, and nothing until you get way out on the SW side near La Grange or Medina.  Plenty of Parks- which are off limits to development. 

Right...unless they start tearing down a whole neighborhood (blighted?)...or commercial district.

[Bob806]

Leave my golf courses alone!!!😊😊

[Dutch Oven]

14 hours ago, Zombo said:

I don't know how you fit an NFL stadium and all of the extra parking in the footprint of Progressive. I don't think this was thought through.

Zombo

Parking is all over the place... That wouldn't be as big a deal as your other point - trying to fit a 65,000+ seat retractable domed football stadium into the footprint of what was a 43,000 seat baseball park. That could be interesting. 

I'm trying to find how big the footprint of Progressive Field is in comparison to Seattle's CenturyLink Stadium - a football field that was creatively "crammed" into a relatively small area, but haven't yet. 

[hoorta]

16 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Parking is all over the place... That wouldn't be as big a deal as your other point - trying to fit a 65,000+ seat retractable domed football stadium into the footprint of what was a 43,000 seat baseball park. That could be interesting. 

I'm sure if Modell had gone along- that site would have been configured completely differently. Of course by now, at 35+ years old- that stadium would be considered obsolete.  

Did look it up- the oldest NFL stadium that hasn't been totally reconfigured (that's Soldier Field) is Arrowhead (1972) and will probably be in use for at least another 20 years. It was built to last. BTW- since you're looking for a new stadium- Kansas City also did it right. It's outside of town, the Royals stadium is next door,  with probably a square mile of parking surrounding it. The Tailgating there is legendary. 

[Dutch Oven]

3 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Right...unless they start tearing down a whole neighborhood (blighted?)...or commercial district.

I mean, in a city that at one time had over 900,000 people, and now has under 400,000, you have to think there's some room SOMEWHERE... 😀

[Dutch Oven]

24 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Did look it up- the oldest NFL stadium that hasn't been totally reconfigured (that's Soldier Field) is Arrowhead (1972) and will probably be in use for at least another 20 years. It was built to last. BTW- since you're looking for a new stadium- Kansas City also did it right. It's outside of town, the Royals stadium is next door,  with probably a square mile of parking surrounding it. The Tailgating there is legendary. 

Your feeling on watching a football game indoors is akin to my thoughts on building stadiums in the sticks and surrounding them with parking lots. 

Zero ambiance. 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

5 hours ago, mjp28 said:

What did Rodney Dangerfield say about golf courses and cemeteries, the two biggest wastes of real estate there is.  (Caddyshack)

Golf courses make great housing developments all landscaped out -or- maybe a good starting point for a mega stadium complex with parking !

Cemetaries have people dying to get in.

[mjp28]

5 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Well, that is just what is happening to a couple of them around here.  Brookside Country Club in Norton, perhaps the oldest golf course in Summit Co. has been sold to real estate developers.

Valley View...gone.   Brandywine CC....gone.  Both Summit Co.     Pine Valley near me  here in Medina Co.  almost suffered the same fate, but apparently the land developer has decided that it will be saved. 

I a guessing that Millenials just don't like to play golf as much as older generations. 

They took the old Candywood golf course not far from the YGN airport which was really nice and due to dropping customers closed it, fenced it in, put game in it......and charge people money to hunt them with high power rifles.  The surrounding farm community hate the idea but can do nothing about it.

During the steel mill days there were thousands of well paid workers, tons of leagues all gone like many of the old courses.

They truly are more profitable to cut up into McMansion housing developments.    But if you have decent freeway access they could make a good stadium site.

[SdBacker80]

6 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Well, that is just what is happening to a couple of them around here.  Brookside Country Club in Norton, perhaps the oldest golf course in Summit Co. has been sold to real estate developers.

Valley View...gone.   Brandywine CC....gone.  Both Summit Co.     Pine Valley near me  here in Medina Co.  almost suffered the same fate, but apparently the land developer has decided that it will be saved. 

I a guessing that Millenials just don't like to play golf as much as older generations. 

They like to play golf ...on a video game system 

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

Your feeling on watching a football game indoors is akin to my thoughts on building stadiums in the sticks and surrounding them with parking lots. 

Zero ambiance. 

I just had another thought- and you probably won't like it. Can't say it's anything original- the idea was brought up before. If you want a dome, and can't figure out where to put it. Put it right where First Energy is right now. Tear down FE, and the Browns play at Ohio State until the new place is done. The Vikings did the same gambit playing at The University of Minnesota. 

[Tour2ma]

On 2/23/2020 at 3:48 PM, Gorka said:

Football is played in the fall and winter, but yes, I did overlook the advantage of having of a dome for summertime events.

Clearly you've never spent a September in Houston...

[Gorka]

10 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Clearly you've never spent a September in Houston...

Yeah, so what?

[Dutch Oven]

57 minutes ago, hoorta said:

I just had another thought- and you probably won't like it. Can't say it's anything original- the idea was brought up before. If you want a dome, and can't figure out where to put it. Put it right where First Energy is right now. Tear down FE, and the Browns play at Ohio State until the new place is done. The Vikings did the same gambit playing at The University of Minnesota. 

Or when the Bears played down south in Champaign at the U of Illinois while Soldier Field was redone. 

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I mean, in a city that at one time had over 900,000 people, and now has under 400,000, you have to think there's some room SOMEWHERE... 😀

Go ahead and look at the satellite images that Hoorta and I have,   and then tell us where..  We are all ears and eyes. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

They like to play golf ...on a video game system 

Is that really it....they just do video games?   I kind of gave up golf about 20 years ago....but I could consider getting into it again....just for the camaraderie aspects.  About the same for bowling.  I put my money now into travel, and I take my walks in parks. 

I also think that the whole idea of Tiger getting  minorities heavily involved in golf also went up in smoke.  Oh, there was some of it....not as much as expected.

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, hoorta said:

I just had another thought- and you probably won't like it. Can't say it's anything original- the idea was brought up before. If you want a dome, and can't figure out where to put it. Put it right where First Energy is right now. Tear down FE, and the Browns play at Ohio State until the new place is done. The Vikings did the same gambit playing at The University of Minnesota. 

Except the Univ. of Minnesota Stadium was, literally a long walk from the Metrodome.  About a mile, mile and a half at most.     (my son worked right across the street from the Minn Stadium for a couple of years....and from his place you could look down the street there and see the Metrodome...or the now US Bank Stadium.  

Ohio Stadium is 145 miles away from First Energy.  So unless you want to alienate a lot of your fans, you shouldn't go that far away....unless, of course, you are trying to court that market, which Haslam probably would want to do as he now owns the soccer team that is there. 

Akron Univerity' s   Infocision Stadium is actually the 3rd largest  college football stadium in Ohio....after only Ohio Stadium, and the old Nippert Stadium where Cincinnati U plays.   And it is new...built in 2009,  and holds 30,000.....which is more than the Chargers have been playing in the last few years;  and it is larger, and closer than the HOF stadium  (22K capacity).   It could be the better alternative...if you felt that there had to be a tear down. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Gorka said:

Yeah, so what?

If you had you would know how miserable it is there in the summer....that is what I suspect he was getting at. 

[Dutch Oven]

51 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Go ahead and look at the satellite images that Hoorta and I have,   and then tell us where..  We are all ears and eyes. 

They somehow figured out places to build the Jacobs Field, Gund Arena and the Wolstein Center in the late 80s/early 90s, I'm sure they could figure out somewhere to do it again.

But I guess nothing new can be built within the city limits of Cleveland. It's all full. CLEVELAND IS CLOSED FOR FURTHER PROGRESS! 😂 Someone better tell Dee! 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/browns-eyeing-new-stadium-exploring-early-options-for-its-possible-development/

[The Gipper]

1 minute ago, Dutch Oven said:

They somehow figured out places to build the Jacobs Field, Gund Arena and the Wolstein Center in the late 80s/early 90s, I'm sure they could figure out somewhere to do it again.

But I guess nothing new can be built downtown. It's all full. CLEVELAND IS CLOSED FOR FURTHER PROGRESS! 😂

No one is saying that.....We are saying for YOU to tell where YOU would propose to put it where it would fit.   And FYI, what did they do to build the Jake/Gundarena/Wolstein?   They had to tear down a lot of buildings that were there.    Here is an aerial view of where these things are now.  This is an older picture, maybe even in the 50s.   But I recall the Central Market, which was the main facility there, plus there were a number of older warehouses and the like:

Compare now: