OBF, I've Made The Pilgrimage

[OldBrownsFan]

43 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

See that sounds no better than a cult to me. 

You're basing that all on an old book that's been modified countless times. 

 

But we've been down this path so many times that I won't worry about it. Your brain is just wired differently. You were born that way.

If I am "wired" this way to believe you have brought up another truth the bible points out about "election". If I am wired this way to believe that is a very good thing. Don't get me wrong though the race is not over. I could stumble and fall. We have seen other Christians fall away from faith so I am not being puffed up at all about this. I will say though when I saw election and predestination in the bible I started praying that I am and will remain part of the elect.

Question: "Who are the elect of God?"

Answer: Simply put, the “elect of God” are those whom God has predestined to salvation. They are called the “elect” because that word denotes the concept of choosing. Every four years in the U.S., we "elect" a President—i.e., we choose who will serve in that office. The same goes for God and those who will be saved; God chooses those who will be saved. These are the elect of God.

As it stands, the concept of God electing those who will be saved isn’t controversial. What is controversial is how and in what manner God chooses those who will be saved. Throughout church history, there have been two main views on the doctrine of election (or predestination). One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will in the course of time choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. On the basis of this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). This view is held by the majority of American evangelicals.

The second main view is the Augustinian view, which essentially teaches that God not only divinely elects those who will have faith in Jesus Christ, but also divinely elects to grant to these individuals the faith to believe in Christ. In other words, God’s election unto salvation is not based on a foreknowledge of an individual’s faith, but is based on the free, sovereign grace of Almighty God. God elects people to salvation, and in time these people will come to faith in Christ because God has elected them.

The difference boils down to this: who has the ultimate choice in salvation—God or man? In the first view (the prescient view), man has control; his free will is sovereign and becomes the determining factor in God’s election. God can provide the way of salvation through Jesus Christ, but man must choose Christ for himself in order to make salvation real. Ultimately, this view diminishes the biblical understanding of God’s sovereignty. This view puts the Creator’s provision of salvation at the mercy of the creature; if God wants people in heaven, He has to hope that man will freely choose His way of salvation. In reality, the prescient view of election is no view of election at all, because God is not really choosing—He is only confirming. It is man who is the ultimate chooser.

In the Augustinian view, God has control; He is the one who, of His own sovereign will, freely chooses those whom He will save. He not only elects those whom He will save, but He actually accomplishes their salvation. Rather than simply make salvation possible, God chooses those whom He will save and then saves them. This view puts God in His proper place as Creator and Sovereign.

The Augustinian view is not without problems of its own. Critics have claimed that this view robs man of his free will. If God chooses those who will be saved, then what difference does it make for man to believe? Why preach the gospel? Furthermore, if God elects according to His sovereign will, then how can we be responsible for our actions? These are all good and fair questions that need to be answered. A good passage to answer these questions is Romans 9, the most in-depth passage dealing with God’s sovereignty in election.

The context of the passage flows from Romans 8, which ends with a great climax of praise: “For I am convinced that... [nothing] in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39). This leads Paul to consider how a Jew might respond to that statement. While Jesus came to the lost children of Israel and while the early church was largely Jewish in makeup, the gospel was spreading among the Gentiles much faster than among the Jews. In fact, most Jews saw the gospel as a stumbling block (1 Corinthians 1:23) and rejected Jesus. This would lead the average Jew to wonder if God’s plan of election has failed, since most Jews reject the message of the gospel.

Throughout Romans 9, Paul systematically shows that God’s sovereign election has been in force from the very beginning. He begins with a crucial statement: “For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel” (Romans 9:6). This means that not all people of ethnic Israel (that is, those descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) belong to true Israel (the elect of God). Reviewing the history of Israel, Paul shows that God chose Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau. Just in case anyone thinks that God was choosing these individuals based on the faith or good works they would do in the future, he adds, “Though they [Jacob and Esau] were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls” (Romans 9:11).

At this point, one might be tempted to accuse God of acting unjustly. Paul anticipates this accusation in v. 14, stating plainly that God is not unjust in any way. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” (Romans 9:15). God is sovereign over His creation. He is free to choose those whom He will choose, and He is free to pass by those whom He will pass by. The creature has no right to accuse the Creator of being unjust. The very thought that the creature can stand in judgment of the Creator is absurd to Paul, and it should be so to every Christian, as well. The balance of Romans 9 substantiates this point.

As already mentioned, there are other passages that talk to a lesser extent on the topic of God’s elect (John 6:37-45 and Ephesians 1:3-14, to name a couple). The point is that God has ordained to redeem a remnant of humanity to salvation. These elect individuals were chosen before the creation of the world, and their salvation is complete in Christ. As Paul says, “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Romans 8:29-30).
 

Recommended Resource: Chosen But Free, revised edition: A Balanced View of God’s Sovereignty and Free Will by Norm Geisler and The Potter’s Freedom by James White

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

"Avowed atheist"? Where?

I'm not so sure that you can prove there isn't a god, but if I had to bet, I'd say there isn't one. Especially a god as described in Christianity.

If you think I went there just to post on this board you're crazy. I was in there area and my group decided to swing by. Can't fault me for wanting to learn what Creationists have to say, right? Was curious. Wanted to learn. And I did. I learned more about creationism.

Woody, there's plenty of us religious folks who don't take everything in the Bible literally. Like it was all created in seven days. Really no good "creationist" explanation of the dinosaurs. Short of a miracle- like a Star Trek shrinking stuff down to 1\1,000th size), getting every living species on one boat is pretty impossible. 

2 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

See that sounds no better than a cult to me. 

You're basing that all on an old book that's been modified countless times. 

But we've been down this path so many times that I won't worry about it. Your brain is just wired differently. You were born that way.

Yes Woody it's a cult that most of the eyewitness to the event were so convinced of it's reality they were willing to die for their conviction. As one of the Sanhedrin said a few years after Christ's death- if it's just a merely human cult- it's going to die out in short order. 2,000+ years later it's still in existence. 

And it's really not a book- it's a collection of texts- and if you're talking New Testament, some of the original Greek documents are still around- if you have the skill to read them. 

[Axe]

"Some, are wired very badly

 Some, are warped even worse

 Some, view life very sadly

 Some, just embrace the curse" 

[calfoxwc]

2 hours ago, hoorta said:

Woody, there's plenty of us religious folks who don't take everything in the Bible literally. Like it was all created in seven days. Really no good "creationist" explanation of the dinosaurs. Short of a miracle- like a Star Trek shrinking stuff down to 1\1,000th size), getting every living species on one boat is pretty impossible. 

Yes Woody it's a cult that most of the eyewitness to the event were so convinced of it's reality they were willing to die for their conviction. As one of the Sanhedrin said a few years after Christ's death- if it's just a merely human cult- it's going to die out in short order. 2,000+ years later it's still in existence. 

And it's really not a book- it's a collection of texts- and if you're talking New Testament, some of the original Greek documents are still around- if you have the skill to read them. 

• Thanks

[The Cysko Kid]

On 3/7/2020 at 1:07 PM, MLD Woody said:

Ooh when can I get this on Nintendo switch? Looks amazing. 

[Gorka]

7 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

 

I agree with freedom of religion though. And my freedom to mock it. 

I think we're better off without religion. 

But the only reason we mock is to irritate or inflame someone.

I don't think that is something you would normally do. Not you!

 

 

[Gorka]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2020 at 2:27 PM, MLD Woody said:

 

Anyone that knows about this stuff would walk through there and be blown away by everything that incorrect or misleading

 

Like the engineering lab you work in?  lol.. jk

[MLD Woody]

1 hour ago, Gorka said:

Like the engineering lab you work in?  lol.. jk

By "this stuff" I mean just a basic understanding of it haha. Any education at all in this stuff would show someone how ridiculous it is

[MLD Woody]

2 hours ago, Gorka said:

But the only reason we mock is to irritate or inflame someone.

I don't think that is something you would normally do. Not you!

 

 

I mock it to point out how ridiculous it is. I don't want to mock OBF, I want to mock the idea.

[OldBrownsFan]

11 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

I mock it to point out how ridiculous it is. I don't want to mock OBF, I want to mock the idea.

I don't take offense but you are mocking something you do not understand. It would be comparable to me mocking you about your knowledge of calculus when I know next to nothing about calculus. 

I would admit there are things in the bible that do not appear to line up with today's science but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The bible also didn't line up with science for centuries in stating the universe had a beginning while science believed the universe was eternal. 

When the bible says all of creation happened in 6 days does that mean 24 hour days? I don't think so. The bible also says a day with God is as a thousand years for us which is saying Gods interpretation of time is not the same as ours.  

 

I believe you said you had a Catholic education Woody and here is an interesting article from a Catholic website

7 Amazing Scientific Insights of Biblical Writers

https://catholicexchange.com/7-amazing-scientific-insights

[TexasAg1969]

10 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

I believe you said you had a Catholic education Woody and here is an interesting article from a Catholic website

The same Catholics that took almost 400 years to apologize in 1992 to Galileo for being right to endorse Copernican theory that the sun, planets and stars did not revolve around the earth?

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13618460-600-vatican-admits-galileo-was-right/

BTW the only reason Pope Urban commuted Galileo's sentence to house arrest was because they were very good friends before he became Pope. Galileo made the mistake of thinking he could tell the truth about the geocentric view being wrong because of that friendship and that was his mistake.

[calfoxwc]

12 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

I mock it to point out how ridiculous it is. I don't want to mock OBF, I want to mock the idea.

then why were you ridiculing my story? someone asked me why I believed like I do - and you went all ridicule for years.

It's true story. I very nearly died. And got a second miraculous chance at life. You weren't just mocking Christianity or God.

You were mocking anyone who had a story, especially on that subject. But it's good to see you not doing that now.

[OldBrownsFan]

Just now, TexasAg1969 said:

The same Catholics that took almost 400 years to apologize in 1992 to Galileo for being right to endorse Copernican theory that the sun, planets and stars did not revolve around the earth?

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13618460-600-vatican-admits-galileo-was-right/

I am not a defender of all of Catholic theology. I am an ex Catholic today but not anti Catholic. I left the Catholic church because I disagreed with some of their theology. Today I see some protestant churches who I disagree with even more. I mentioned the article I posted was from a Catholic website only because Woody went to a Catholic school.

[Gorka]

18 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

See that sounds no better than a cult to me. 

 

On the surface Jesus and his followers resembled a cult but a cult leader typically doesn't die for his followers like Jesus did.  He will die taking his followers with him...Heavens Gate,  Order of the Solar Gate in Switzerland (LOL), Jonestown, Waco...Manson ordered people to be murdered. Cult leaders through brainwashing confiscate material things, money, from his followers...that may be the objective of a TV preacher, but certainly not Jesus.

 

 

[MLD Woody]

3 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

I don't take offense but you are mocking something you do not understand. It would be comparable to me mocking you about your knowledge of calculus when I know next to nothing about calculus. 

I would admit there are things in the bible that do not appear to line up with today's science but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The bible also didn't line up with science for centuries in stating the universe had a beginning while science believed the universe was eternal. 

When the bible says all of creation happened in 6 days does that mean 24 hour days? I don't think so. The bible also says a day with God is as a thousand years for us which is saying Gods interpretation of time is not the same as ours.  

 

I believe you said you had a Catholic education Woody and here is an interesting article from a Catholic website

7 Amazing Scientific Insights of Biblical Writers

https://catholicexchange.com/7-amazing-scientific-insights

The Creation Museum says it was 6, 24 hour days

[MLD Woody]

2 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

then why were you ridiculing my story? someone asked me why I believed like I do - and you went all ridicule for years.

It's true story. I very nearly died. And got a second miraculous chance at life. You weren't just mocking Christianity or God.

You were mocking anyone who had a story, especially on that subject. But it's good to see you not doing that now.

It is a very mock-able story. The magic Jesus donkey. If you're offended by my mocking then you're collateral damage. Sorry about that. 

[MLD Woody]

2 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

I am not a defender of all of Catholic theology. I am an ex Catholic today but not anti Catholic. I left the Catholic church because I disagreed with some of their theology. Today I see some protestant churches who I disagree with even more. I mentioned the article I posted was from a Catholic website only because Woody went to a Catholic school.

I went to PSR, but thank God I didn't go to an actual Catholic school

[OldBrownsFan]

39 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

The Creation Museum says it was 6, 24 hour days

In the Christian faith there are things that matter and things Christians can just agree to disagree on. This is one of them.  I don't believe there is any time with God. There are matters however that are clear cut in the bible and affect salvation such as Jesus saying you must be born again.  That is not debatable. The only things I believe that are really worth arguing over are the issues that directly affect salvation. Other issues as the bible says we are only seeing through a dark glass. We don't have a clear picture yet. God has revealed much to us in the bible but not everything.

The bible does give us the reason for creation, the reason for the earth, the reason for the stellar heavens, and the reason for man.

 

 

 

[TexasAg1969]

2 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

I am not a defender of all of Catholic theology. I am an ex Catholic today but not anti Catholic. I left the Catholic church because I disagreed with some of their theology. Today I see some protestant churches who I disagree with even more. I mentioned the article I posted was from a Catholic website only because Woody went to a Catholic school.

I'm just here tweaking tails OBF. No harm is meant. There is a lot of extraneous stuff in just about any religion or any sect of the Christian belief system. For me the task has always been to weed out that stuff and keep the essence of the spiritual side of it the best I know how. For example "Let there be light!" is fully in concert with the Big Bang creation over 13 billion years ago. I find it interesting though that all of us and our entire solar system are at least a 2nd or 3rd generation star system, otherwise we could have no precious gold to hoard that science now thinks can only be created in the collision of two neutron stars. It's too heavy to have come from the "usual" Supernova. And it didn't just come from the first Big Bang. That did not create the heavy elements.

[OldBrownsFan]

13 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

It is a very mock-able story. The magic Jesus donkey. If you're offended by my mocking then you're collateral damage. Sorry about that. 

But you never had the experience Cal had. He has had an experience you never experienced. You can say you don't understand his experience having not experiencing something like that yourself but I don't understand why you would mock it.

A saying a minister friend of mine used to say a lot was that he had been to Texas and nobody who never went to Texas was going to tell him what Texas was like. He had the experience of Texas.

[MLD Woody]

26 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

But you never had the experience Cal had. He has had an experience you never experienced. You can say you don't understand his experience having not experiencing something like that yourself but I don't understand why you would mock it.

A saying a minister friend of mine used to say a lot was that he had been to Texas and nobody who never went to Texas was going to tell him what Texas was like. He had the experience of Texas.

because the idea is ridiculous

I've never been a scientologist either but I feel comfortable mocking that too

[OldBrownsFan]

8 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I'm just here tweaking tails OBF. No harm is meant. There is a lot of extraneous stuff in just about any religion or any sect of the Christian belief system. For me the task has always been to weed out that stuff and keep the essence of the spiritual side of it the best I know how. For example "Let there be light!" is fully in concert with the Big Bang creation over 13 billion years ago. I find it interesting though that all of us and our entire solar system are at least a 2nd or 3rd generation star system, otherwise we could have no precious gold to hoard that science now thinks can only be created in the collision of two neutron stars. It's too heavy to have come from the "usual" Supernova. And it didn't just come from the first Big Bang. That did not create the heavy elements.

Or how well the big bang theory seems to correlate with the bible saying God spoke the universe into existence.

I don't think there is time with God as we know time and science does seem to show the young earth theory is not true. All the evidence points to the earth being much older than 6,000 years but what I see is God  preparing things for his creation of man such as coal and oil and metals in the ground we would one day need. It took a lot of time in our measuring of time to prepare this but all of creation seems to be directed for us. If we didn't have the gas and oil in the ground we would have never had the combustible engine. We would not have had the mechanical age without the metals. Everything shows a creator who planned for mankind.  

 

[calfoxwc]

31 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

But you never had the experience Cal had. He has had an experience you never experienced. You can say you don't understand his experience having not experiencing something like that yourself but I don't understand why you would mock it.

A saying a minister friend of mine used to say a lot was that he had been to Texas and nobody who never went to Texas was going to tell him what Texas was like. He had the experience of Texas.

Thanks, OBF. What happened to me changed my life forever. I have always been grateful for the days I would never have had, ...

I miraculously got a second chance at life. Just a true story.

   Back in my AF tech school days - in our squadron, maybe a hundred? guys? you meet all walks of life. all ? all nationalities, skin colors, you betcha. Bible thumpers, agnostics, every race, background, I suppose every major religion....

   It's not valid to ridicule someone with a different story. We all had out different stories back then. Guys from inner city gang environments, suburbs, the beaches of Puerto Rico, from rich families, military families, dirt poor families...from country farms...mountains....

We got along great with only a couple of exceptions. The shared stories were different, some crazy. There was never "mocking".

we had each others' backs...the differences in our stories didn't get in the way. I don't get "mocking" true stories about other folks' lives.

[TexasAg1969]

10 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

Or how well the big bang theory seems to correlate with the bible saying God spoke the universe into existence.

I don't think there is time with God as we know time and science does seem to show the young earth theory is not true. All the evidence points to the earth being much older than 6,000 years but what I see is God  preparing things for his creation of man such as coal and oil and metals in the ground we would one day need. It took a lot of time in our measuring of time to prepare this but all of creation seems to be directed for us. If we didn't have the gas and oil in the ground we would have never had the combustible engine. We would not have had the mechanical age without the metals. Everything shows a creator who planned for mankind. 

So do you believe the oil and coal came from organic living matter? And do you believe that modern man evolved from earlier primates? DNA would say "yes" to both questions.

[MLD Woody]

14 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

Or how well the big bang theory seems to correlate with the bible saying God spoke the universe into existence.

I don't think there is time with God as we know time and science does seem to show the young earth theory is not true. All the evidence points to the earth being much older than 6,000 years but what I see is God  preparing things for his creation of man such as coal and oil and metals in the ground we would one day need. It took a lot of time in our measuring of time to prepare this but all of creation seems to be directed for us. If we didn't have the gas and oil in the ground we would have never had the combustible engine. We would not have had the mechanical age without the metals. Everything shows a creator who planned for mankind.  

 

Well if that isn't the most Republican take ever, that god put oil in the ground for man to find lol

 

 

Also, the Creation Museum explains how the world is only 6000 years old.... Totally

[OldBrownsFan]

Just now, MLD Woody said:

Well if that isn't the most Republican take ever, that god put oil in the ground for man to find lol

 

 

Also, the Creation Museum explains how the world is only 6000 years old.... Totally

The oil and gas were there when we needed it. Just like the metals were in the ground when we needed them. Everything we have and use were placed here for our benefit. That is what I believe. Everything has been mapped out. Some can see it and some don't. I am stunned people cannot see what is going on in the middle east with Israel today, look at the bible prophecies and not see we are living in the end times.

Christians can disagree on the young earth theory. It doesn't affect salvation.

[OldBrownsFan]

39 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

So do you believe the oil and coal came from organic living matter? And do you believe that modern man evolved from earlier primates? DNA would say "yes" to both questions.

I believe it was. I believe it took a long period of time to become oil and coal. It was in the ground for when we needed it. 

I believe what the bible states about why we were created. We were created for fellowship with God. Sin broke the fellowship and Jesus came to restore it. 

The Case for Adam and Eve

https://watchjerusalem.co.il/465-the-case-for-adam-and-eve

[tiamat63]

3 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

  preparing things for his creation of man such as coal and oil and .  

 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

29 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Dinosaurs are not lizards.

[tiamat63]

4 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

Dinosaurs are not lizards.

Well... they're not anything now,   other then bones.