AFC Playoff Picture

[Dutch Oven]

3 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

I am being serious here...I admire the fact that you are arguing against one of the greatest coaches of all time.  

He's butthurt that he found success after Cleveland. 

Typical nonsensical homer Gipper take. 

[The Gipper]

37 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

 

 

Someone tell, Gip that TB12 ain't exactly lighting it up with the Bucs...

Someone tell Tour that he is a gutless wonder.

TB is winning, BB is not.  TB is 43 years old and I think losing it just a bit.   And to be fair, I think he is being forced into a system down there that does not suit him particularly. At least I will give BB the credit for putting TB in a suitable system. 

 

[The Gipper]

8 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

He's butthurt that he found success after Cleveland. 

Typical nonsensical homer Gipper take. 

No, I don't like him much.....but I expected that he could be a good coach....And he is a good coach. 

But without Brady, he is not a championship coach, and only rarely a winning coach.. 

8 years without Brady.....6 of them will be losing seasons.... (which is a longer career perhaps than most people who have been HCs in this league).   

Sorry if the facts get in the way.   Just because you choose to ignore them doesn't mean we all must do so.  

Again, comparing him to PB:      7 years with the Browns without Otto ....6 winning seasons including a Championship game. 

8 years with the Bengals.....a raw expansion team.  Still had 5 winning seasons.

[Footbalfan1962]

7 hours ago, The Gipper said:

 

Again, comparing him to PB:      7 years with the Browns without Otto ....6 winning seasons including a Championship game. 

8 years with the Bengals.....a raw expansion team.  Still had 5 winning seasons.

Are u like 92 years old???

[Zombo]

Quote

.......but it was so absolutely coincidental that losing Brady is when he started losing?   I think not.  

Coincidental? No at all. As I said in my very first sentence, Brady left because the cupboard was bare. They have no weapons left on offense. But after a 20 year run like none ever seen in the sport, a mediocre year is quite understandable. No one nails the draft every time, and Patriots hit a dry spell.

Quote

No, but I still hold him partially responsible for the "move" situation....

Ahh, and there is the personal bias that explains the irrationality.

Boy, you have waited a long time and many, many Super Bowls to unleash your "shut the fuck up" post.

Quote

And as far a PB and the Bengals are concerned,  He did take them from a raw expansion team to a winning team in their third year. 

And Bill Belichick took a 3-13 Browns team and had them winning a playoff game in his 4th year. I thought 1994 was great, didn't turn me off as a fan at all. Modell moved the team and fired Belichick, he's the villain here. Bill had something going here, and Modell shit on it and moved it.

But  Belichick doesn't even need the Cleveland years on his resume, just like Paul Brown doesn't need the Bengals years ... Because what they did elsewhere is so great it has never been seen before. They are both on the Mount Rushmore of coaches.

God forbid you go 6-7 in this league, someone takes your 6 Super Bowl trophies and says you're Marty Schottenheimer.

Zombo

[The Gipper]

4 hours ago, Footbalfan1962 said:

Are u like 92 years old???

WTF difference does it make?   I could be 10 years old.  The facts are the facts. 

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Zombo said:

Coincidental? No at all. As I said in my very first sentence, Brady left because the cupboard was bare. They have no weapons left on offense. But after a 20 year run like none ever seen in the sport, a mediocre year is quite understandable. No one nails the draft every time, and Patriots hit a dry spell.

Sure, OK there would be a drop off.  Still, I think that drop off shows where he is without Brady...still a good coach, not a championship coach...which is what I have been saying all along.  (and I disagree that it was like none ever seen in sport...the Browns from  1946 to 1969 was as much or more of a sustained period of success) 

Ahh, and there is the personal bias that explains the irrationality.

It is not irrational.  It is just  pure facts.  I did not create his  2-6 winning vs. losing record without Brady. 

Boy, you have waited a long time and many, many Super Bowls to unleash your "shut the fuck up" post.

OK,  So...Shut the Fuck Up! 

And Bill Belichick took a 3-13 Browns team and had them winning a playoff game in his 4th year. I thought 1994 was great, didn't turn me off as a fan at all. Modell moved the team and fired Belichick, he's the villain here. Bill had something going here, and Modell shit on it and moved it.

As I said, he had his part to play in it, but certainly it was Modell.  And while yes, that was a 3-13 year before he was hired, that team had just gone to the AFC title game the year before.  So he was not too quick at building.  And while BB was building, yes, Modell screwed things up for all of us. 

But Modell doesn't even need the Cleveland years on his resume, just like Paul Brown doesn't need the Bengals years ... Because what they did elsewhere is so great it has never been seen before. They are both on the Mount Rushmore of coaches.

I assume you mean BB, not Modell.  And If they were to put 10-15 Presidents on Mt. Rushmore, I guess he would go up there.  

God forbid you go 6-7 in this league, someone takes your 6 Super Bowl trophies and says you're Marty Schottenheimer.

OK, maybe a bit much.  Still.

Zombo

 

[Nero]

13 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Someone tell Tour that he is a gutless wonder.

TB is winning, BB is not.  TB is 43 years old and I think losing it just a bit.   And to be fair, I think he is being forced into a system down there that does not suit him particularly. At least I will give BB the credit for putting TB in a suitable system. 

 

The Bucs as of today have 1 more win than the Patriots, so careful there... 

I think the Bucs have a better roster than the Patriots. Plus most of the times Bellichick has been accounted for the performance of the Defense and the Special Teams, while offense lately has been Josh McDaniels playground. If you have watched their games, at least their highlights, their defense is playing great and ST are top tier as always, but that offense is hard to overcome. Their offense wasn't something to brag about and they had their biggest players (Cam Newton, Edelman and Sonny Michel) missing a lot of weeks...

Keep this in mind and remember, they have 1 win less than the Bucs. I wish the Browns had transition years like the one the Patriots are having. 

[Nero]

15 hours ago, The Gipper said:

And he is/can be a good coach.....but there are a dozen or more coaches in history that I believe are better.  

Lambeau/Halas/Landry/PB/Walsh/Noll/Gibbs/Shula/Lombardi/Parcells/Holmgren/Ewbank/Madden/Jimmy Johnson/Cowher  and I may even consider putting Andy Reid in there.  

So, really, I think I put him in about the 10-15 range.  (along with like Marty and some others)

OMG. This is gold. I can't believe this. 

[Dutch Oven]

6 minutes ago, Nero said:

OMG. This is gold. I can't believe this. 

I absolutely can.

It's Gipper, you know how he do. 😁

[Nero]

Looking at Pro Football Reference team data on the Patriots, I decided to analyze if Belichick is the GOAT of coaches.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/index.htm

I think that a team that has a top 10 grading on both sides of the ball almost every year for 20 years, is well coached.

I think an ex Defensive Coordinator who leads a team who has a Defense in the top 10 for 17 times in 20 years, is a great coach.

I think that said coach gets 6 SB, 4 times having a better defense ranking than offensive ranking, is an UNBELIEVABLE coach.

And if said coach is also a GM who keeps a team is such level of excellence in an era of Salary Cap... Fuck it. He's the best ever. 

Maybe Belichick would have won less SBs without Brady,  but he's the best ever. Period. And Brady, having a top 10 offense 18 times in 20 years, yeah, I'd say he is the best QB ever too.

 

I hope I don't have to do another Patriots' spreadsheet to state the obvious. 

EDIT: I know it says 'beter' in the spreadsheet, but every Patriots game I've watched I have wished them to lose and that silly T is silent. English, bah. 

[The Gipper]

On 12/12/2020 at 12:47 PM, Dutch Oven said:

I absolutely can.

It's Gipper, you know how he do. 😁

Yes,  I tell it like I see it 

[The Gipper]

5 hours ago, Nero said:

Looking at Pro Football Reference team data on the Patriots, I decided to analyze if Belichick is the GOAT of coaches.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/index.htm

I think that a team that has a top 10 grading on both sides of the ball almost every year for 20 years, is well coached.

I think an ex Defensive Coordinator who leads a team who has a Defense in the top 10 for 17 times in 20 years, is a great coach.

I think that said coach gets 6 SB, 4 times having a better defense ranking than offensive ranking, is an UNBELIEVABLE coach.

And if said coach is also a GM who keeps a team is such level of excellence in an era of Salary Cap... Fuck it. He's the best ever. 

Maybe Belichick would have won less SBs without Brady,  but he's the best ever. Period. And Brady, having a top 10 offense 18 times in 20 years, yeah, I'd say he is the best QB ever too.

 

I hope I don't have to do another Patriots' spreadsheet to state the obvious. 

EDIT: I know it says 'beter' in the spreadsheet, but every Patriots game I've watched I have wished them to lose and that silly T is silent. English, bah. 

What you have proven to me is that he is Top 15. Again without Brady he has had 6 of 8 losing seasons. Analyze that!  (Starring   Billy Crystal and Robert De Niro)

[Footbalfan1962]

11 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I tell it like I see it 

Call Monday first thing and schedule appt with eye doctor...

[Zombo]

21 hours ago, The Gipper said:

It is not irrational.  It is just  pure facts.  I did not create his  2-6 winning vs. losing record without Brady. 

No, but you won't let it go.

Total rebuild in Cleveland with a 3-13 team. 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, 11-5 and a Playoff win. You know what happened the next year, throw it out.

Took one year to restructure New England. 5-11, 11-5 and Super Bowl.

Then 18 winning years in a row, the last 17 with double digits, 8 more Super Bows, 5 more wins, but that was all Brady, even though they went 11-5 the year he was out and the defensive numbers were superb.

Now they are 6-7 with a last minute washed-up QB replacement and I bet you can't name their leading rusher or receiver without looking it up.

So obviously you are dragging him through the mud for those three years in Cleveland. If you remember the '90 team, they were beyond awful. We held on to fading stars too long hoping for one more year of glory, and Modell had too much control and meddling, bringing in 90 year old Raymond Clayborn and paying him a billion dollars instead of paying Minnifield. That team was dead in the water.

39 year old Belichick came in, made radical changes and improved that team three games to 6-10.

Then two 7-9 seasons and the team transitioned from Kosar to Testeverde and slowly built a great defense.

Then a terrific 11-5 season which included a win over the Patriots in the playoffs.

You damn well know what happened after that.

That's your beef with him?

Let's look at your list of Coaches who feel are greater:

Quote

Lambeau/Halas/Landry/PB/Walsh/Noll/Gibbs/Shula/Lombardi/Parcells/Holmgren/Ewbank/Madden/Jimmy Johnson/Cowher  and I may even consider putting Andy Reid in there.

Curly Lambeau had seasons of 5-7-1, 3-9, 2-10,  5-7, 2-8, 4-8 

George Hallas had 6 losing seasons and once championship in his last 20 years.

Tom Landry started off 0-11-1, didn't have a winning season until his 6th year and finished 3-13

Paul Brown's record in Cincinnati was 55-56.

Chuck Noll started of 1-13 and with three losing seasons and finished as a below .500 coach his last 8 years.

Joe Gibbs was 30-34 in his "comeback".

Don Shula won 10 games or more only 3 times in his last ten years, he had Marino at QB for all of them.

Lombardi won 96 games to Belichicks 279

Parcells had a winning pect. of .569 to Belichicks .676, and won one playoff game in his last 7 years

Holmgren won 1 championship in 17 years.

Ewbank was 1 game over .500

Madden won 103 games to BB's 279 and one trophy.

Jimmy Johnson started 1-15 and finished in first place just twice ... only with Troy Aikman.

Bill Cowher had three losings, won 130 less games than BB and had one trophy.

It took Andy Reid twenty years to win his one trophy.

But GOOD FORBID, Bill Belichick had back to back 7-9 years in Cleveland with a maniac meddling owner!

Zombo

 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

On 12/12/2020 at 6:01 AM, Footbalfan1962 said:

Are u like 92 years old???

Not like, is.

[The Gipper]

31 minutes ago, Zombo said:

No, but you won't let it go.

Total rebuild in Cleveland with a 3-13 team. 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, 11-5 and a Playoff win. You know what happened the next year, throw it out.

Took one year to restructure New England. 5-11, 11-5 and Super Bowl.

Then 18 winning years in a row, the last 17 with double digits, 8 more Super Bows, 5 more wins, but that was all Brady, even though they went 11-5 the year he was out and the defensive numbers were superb.

Now they are 6-7 with a last minute washed-up QB replacement and I bet you can't name their leading rusher or receiver without looking it up.

So obviously you are dragging him through the mud for those three years in Cleveland. If you remember the '90 team, they were beyond awful. We held on to fading stars too long hoping for one more year of glory, and Modell had too much control and meddling, bringing in 90 year old Raymond Clayborn and paying him a billion dollars instead of paying Minnifield. That team was dead in the water.

39 year old Belichick came in, made radical changes and improved that team three games to 6-10.

Then two 7-9 seasons and the team transitioned from Kosar to Testeverde and slowly built a great defense.

Then a terrific 11-5 season which included a win over the Patriots in the playoffs.

You damn well know what happened after that.

That's your beef with him?

Let's look at your list of Coaches who feel are greater:

Curly Lambeau had seasons of 5-7-1, 3-9, 2-10,  5-7, 2-8, 4-8 

George Hallas had 6 losing seasons and once championship in his last 20 years.

Tom Landry started off 0-11-1, didn't have a winning season until his 6th year and finished 3-13

Paul Brown's record in Cincinnati was 55-56.

Chuck Noll started of 1-13 and with three losing seasons and finished as a below .500 coach his last 8 years.

Joe Gibbs was 30-34 in his "comeback".

Don Shula won 10 games or more only 3 times in his last ten years, he had Marino at QB for all of them.

Lombardi won 96 games to Belichicks 279

Parcells had a winning pect. of .569 to Belichicks .676, and won one playoff game in his last 7 years

Holmgren won 1 championship in 17 years.

Ewbank was 1 game over .500

Madden won 103 games to BB's 279 and one trophy.

Jimmy Johnson started 1-15 and finished in first place just twice ... only with Troy Aikman.

Bill Cowher had three losings, won 130 less games than BB and had one trophy.

It took Andy Reid twenty years to win his one trophy.

But GOOD FORBID, Bill Belichick had back to back 7-9 years in Cleveland with a maniac meddling owner!

Zombo

 

Brady

[Zombo]

4 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Brady

Was drafted by Bill Belichick. It was BB who found him in the 6th round, it was BB who had the balls to keep at QB over #1overall Drew Bledsoe when Bledsoe was healthy.

Has won just one more game than BB this year despite having a stable of weapons, all who are better than anyone on NE.

Zombo

[The Gipper]

Well, here are some interesting figures.  These are BBs records against other top quality coaches he has faced in his career:

Andy Reed   7-2

George Seifert  2-0

Mike Holmgren  3-1

Bill Parcell   3-2

Tony Dungy  5-5

Joe Gibbs  1-1

Chuck Noll  1-1

Marty Schottenheimer  3-3

Jimmy Johnson  0-1

Marv Levy  0-1

Don Shula  0-2

Mike Shanahan  4-5

Bill Cowher  6-8

Dan Reeves 1-3

Tom Coughlin  1-5

For whatever reason, I could not find the head to head records of BB vs. Tomlin and vs. John Harbaugh, who over the years have been 

 

 

[Tour2ma]

Yup... loves to argue.

[Tour2ma]

Here's a fun fact....

Paul Brown never won a Championship without Otto Graham and had only one Championship appearance.

Hmmmmmmmm....

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Here's a fun fact....

Paul Brown never won a Championship without Otto Graham and had only one Championship appearance.

Hmmmmmmmm....

Fun fact:  

A. Belichik never won a Championship without Brady....and never had a single Chamionship appearance.

B.  Of his Non Otto years,  PB had 11 winning seasons and only 4 losing seasons including making a Championship game with Tommy McConnell as  QB  (even when taking over an expansion team)  where  BB had 2 winning seasons and  6 losing seasons....

C. Don Shula  made championship games or Super Bowls with:  Johnny Unitas, Bob Griese, Earl Morrall, David Woodley, and Dan Marino as his primary QBs for a season or more. 

D.  Joe Gibbs went to Super Bowls with Mark Rypien, Doug Williams,  and Joe Theismann as QBs. 

E. Halas won an NFL title with something called Billy Wade at QB...as well as Sid Luckman...and who knows who else going back to the 20s.

F. Tom Landry went to Super Bowls with Craig Morton, and Staubach. 

G. Bill Cowher went to Super Bowls with Neil O'Donnell and  Ben R. 

H. Weeb Ewbank won Championships in 2 different leagues with 2 different teams. 

I.  Reed (McNabb/Mahomes), Holmgren (Favre/Hasselback), Parcells(Simms/Hostetler/Hasselback) went to Super Bowls with 2 different teams, and different QBs as noted. 

 

 

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Yup... loves to argue.

Mostly I just present facts....like above.  They do the arguing for me. 

[Zombo]

On 12/9/2020 at 7:49 AM, Zombo said:

The Ravens finally got their freebie with Dallas in, after the NFL made sure the game was delayed long enough that the reigning MVP was able to play, and we can finally put Week 13 to Bed:

The Browns host the Ravens on Monday Night, and Vegas currently has it as a "pick'em". It is a HUGE game in all regards for the Browns ... their only real path the the AFC North Crown and a chance to "put the Ravens away" from interfering with the Browns Wild Card chances. Big one, folks.

Other games with Implications:

1. Pittsburgh at Buffalo. As Myles said, the Steelers may have "opened the door" for the Browns in the AFC North ... but this week holds the key, a Steeler loss and a Browns win and things are more than interesting. GO BILLS!

2. Kansas City at Miami. Well catching Pittsburgh AND Kansas City is a nice dream ... realistically we'd rather see the Phins take another L. GO CHIEFS!

3. Indianapolis at Vegas. The good news is, that someone is going to lose here. I kinda feel like I'd like to see the Colts hand the Raiders their 6th loss, since they have that looming tiebreaker over us ... but there is no bad result here. Go Poor Play!

4. Tennessee at Jacksonville. I feel the Jags have one shocker in the bag, maybe it's this week. GO JAGS!

Zombo

Kansas City holds off Miami and the Chiefs and Steelers both clinch playoff spots.

Tennessee handles Jax.

Colts off to a good start against Vegas.

A Browns win versus Ravens would be simply humongous, as Rats Phins and Raiders would be left behind to fight for that last playoff spot.

Z

 

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Zombo said:

Kansas City holds off Miami and the Chiefs and Steelers both clinch playoff spots.

Tennessee handles Jax.

Colts off to a good start against Vegas.

A Browns win versus Ravens would be simply humongous, as Rats Phins and Raiders would be left behind to fight for that last playoff spot.

Z

 

Check.  Fins loss gives them 5 for the year.....good for us.  They currently hold the last spot.....depending on Ravens games. And for now we hold the better conference record tiebreaker. 

Colts putting it to Raiders 44-27, but only a minute left in the game.  They have the 6th spot.    That pushes Raider to 6 losses vs. our 3. They have tiebreaker on us, which is far from coming into play.. 

Titans win, but that's OK...someone has to win the AFCSouth. 

We hold tie breaker against either Tits or Colts.

We could really put the Ratfuckers out of their misery tomorrow.

Chiefs/Squibs  have clinched playoff spot.

Jets/Bengals/Texans/Chargers/Jags eliminated 

Pats and Broncos all but out of it at 6-7 and 5-8 respectively. 

[Nero]

If I'm not mistaken, out of the playoffs areth Ravens and the Raiders with 7 wins each... So if the Browns win the Ravens, they put themselves 10-3 with 3 wins above those teams, so only the Raiders winning everything and the Browns losing all three remaining games would be the only scenario where we are not in the playoffs, since the Raiders won the head to head and the Ravens would have anyway a worse conference record, though I don't know how would be the tiebreaker if Raiders, Ravens and Browns end up with 10 wins each...

[Bob806]

12 hours ago, Zombo said:

 

Bill Cowher had three losings, won 130 less games than BB and had one trophy.

 

 

Bill Cowher was 1-4 in AFC Title games in his own stadium. Absolutely crazy considering the Steelers have enjoyed a huge home field advantage for decades.

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, Nero said:

If I'm not mistaken, out of the playoffs areth Ravens and the Raiders with 7 wins each... So if the Browns win the Ravens, they put themselves 10-3 with 3 wins above those teams, so only the Raiders winning everything and the Browns losing all three remaining games would be the only scenario where we are not in the playoffs, since the Raiders won the head to head and the Ravens would have anyway a worse conference record, though I don't know how would be the tiebreaker if Raiders, Ravens and Browns end up with 10 wins each...

Step away from the Sangria...

... and do it now.

[TexasAg1969]

32 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Step away from the Sangria...

... and do it now.

He actually lives very close to the Rioja region of Spain.🍷😋

[Nero]

55 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Step away from the Sangria...

... and do it now.

Explain yourself.