🏈 Official Preseason Game Thread: Browns at Jaguars.

[Dutch Oven]

13 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cleveland.com/browns/2022/08/how-jeremiah-owusu-koramoah-martin-emerson-jr-and-the-rest-of-the-browns-defense-graded-vs-the-jaguars.html%3foutputType=amp

 

 Have to disagree with PFF on Winfrey's grade.  Almost feels like his and Taven's should be flipped. 

 I've only ever spoken to one of their data scientists. At least, that was his job title listed on his Facebook.  And the conversation was..... frustrating. 

 Could have sworn I saved screenshots of it on my desktop. 

I won't even begin to know how they determine most of their grades, it's a little too "inside baseball" for me, but does it seem like it is somewhat subjective - along the lines of ice skating grades? Just seems really, really difficult to grade guys in the trenches.

[Flugel]

12 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 

 Funny enough you bring that up, I was watching the Raiders game the other night and saw Billings looking a bit more trim and having some nice redzone impact.   Hurts my heart he couldn't find that level of play within him while in Cleveland.  Could really use that player who showed up in Cincy.

 The IDL lineup, and to a lesser extent the LB makeup, is a product of the new-age analytic thinking.  These positions, like RB, are devalued greatly in comparison to DB and pass rusher.  The problem is, they're the meat and potatoes of your defense.   Whenever you come across a team that has the sexy flash, you often find they lack the substance.  They lack the dogs who do the nameless dirty work at an NFL level week in and week out.   

 Winfrey is a start, but he isn't going to fix this line overnight or long term by himself.   Aaron Donald had Michael Brockers (now Gregg Gaines, somebody I was high before he was drafted) next to him.  By no means a yearly pro-bowler, but a steady and reliable presence in the middle who could do a thankless job quite well.   That's who needs to emerge from this roster or needs to be found ASAP.

Not for nothing, the Rats drafted DT Travis Jones at #76 overall (rd 3) when we should have taken him in the spot where we drafted CB Martin Emerson at #68 overall.  I think we could have still drafted Emerson at #78 overall where we reached badly on Alex Wright.  I'm watching this organization think they can Dr Frankenstein an Anthony Schwartz into an NFL starter because he can run really fast in a straight line regardless of the Edward Scissorhands. 

If we want to keep OL off our backers, it sure didn't look like that was a part of the draft strategy at all.   JOK isn't much bigger than a lot of Strong Safeties so this is going to be important.  Last year reminds us that both him and Phillips got injured.  

The Jax game wasn't on so I recorded it and of course it cut out in the first half.  I have Wednesday off and I can't wait to watch this thing.  

[Canton Dawg]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

I'm watching this organization think they can Dr Frankenstein an Anthony Schwartz into an NFL starter because he can run really fast in a straight line regardless of the Edward Scissorhands.

Schwartz is bringing back memories of 49ers receiver Renaldo Nehemiah. He ran a 4.20 in the 40, but couldn’t catch a cold. It may be time to end the Schwartz experiment and free up a roster spot for someone that can actually catch a football.

[tiamat63]

57 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Not for nothing, the Rats drafted DT Travis Jones at #76 overall (rd 3) when we should have taken him in the spot where we drafted CB Martin Emerson at #68 overall.  I think we could have still drafted Emerson at #78 overall where we reached badly on Alex Wright.  I'm watching this organization think they can Dr Frankenstein an Anthony Schwartz into an NFL starter because he can run really fast in a straight line regardless of the Edward Scissorhands. 

If we want to keep OL off our backers, it sure didn't look like that was a part of the draft strategy at all.   JOK isn't much bigger than a lot of Strong Safeties so this is going to be important.  Last year reminds us that both him and Phillips got injured.  

The Jax game wasn't on so I recorded it and of course it cut out in the first half.  I have Wednesday off and I can't wait to watch this thing.  

The idea of building back to front isn't a new concept. The Jets with Revis and Crow.    The Seahawks and the Legion. The Broncos with Talib, Chris Harris, Ward, Roby & Stewart.   

So I don't mind them making DB a priority, but you also need effective role players up the middle of your defense.  For all the secondaries I just listed, the Jets had Devito, Ellis and Wilkerson.  The Hawks had Red and Mebane, the Broncos had Pot Roast and prime Malik Jackson. 

You get the idea.   I guess my point is, when does the priority become over saturation?  As the roster looks right now, I believe a Travis Jones would benefit this defense more than Emerson would.   That is unless the front office takes steps to address IDL in the coming weeks.

To your mentioning of young JoK - it plays into the philosophy of drafting these smaller, faster linebackers.  I mentioned it when the Bears picked Roquan...  if you want these guys to roam sideline to sideline, you need the bodies to keep them clean up front.  'Quan ended up in a great situation having Hicks and Goldman in front of him, as a result he looks great.  

Glen Logan ( who looked 'meh' when I watched him next to Neil Ferrall) possibly making this roster as a rookie isn't some testament to good scouting and finding diamonds in the rough.    It's a consequence of allowing a glaring weakness at one of your position groups.

 

[TexasAg1969]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

I'm watching this organization think they can Dr Frankenstein an Anthony Schwartz into an NFL starter because he can run really fast in a straight line regardless of the Edward Scissorhands. 

LOL!  

2 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

Schwartz is bringing back memories of 49ers receiver Renaldo Nehemiah. He ran a 4.20 in the 40, but couldn’t catch a cold. It may be time to end the Schwartz experiment and free up a roster spot for someone that can actually catch a football.

He looked like he was trying to take off every time before he ever looked the ball into his hands. He has a lot of bad habits to unlearn for sure, or it's adios to the NFL. On the plus side he has gotten open enough to have the ball thrown his way.

[nickers]

1 hour ago, TexasAg1969 said:

LOL!  

He looked like he was trying to take off every time before he ever looked the ball into his hands. He has a lot of bad habits to unlearn for sure, or it's adios to the NFL. On the plus side he has gotten open enough to have the ball thrown his way.

I'm willing to give the schwartz experiment one more season.. They say there's that 3 year window.. Other wise.. Bring Will Fuller in and call it a day...

[Flugel]

4 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

The idea of building back to front isn't a new concept. The Jets with Revis and Crow.    The Seahawks and the Legion. The Broncos with Talib, Chris Harris, Ward, Roby & Stewart.   

So I don't mind them making DB a priority, but you also need effective role players up the middle of your defense.  For all the secondaries I just listed, the Jets had Devito, Ellis and Wilkerson.  The Hawks had Red and Mebane, the Broncos had Pot Roast and prime Malik Jackson. 

You get the idea.   I guess my point is, when does the priority become over saturation?  As the roster looks right now, I believe a Travis Jones would benefit this defense more than Emerson would.   That is unless the front office takes steps to address IDL in the coming weeks.

To your mentioning of young JoK - it plays into the philosophy of drafting these smaller, faster linebackers.  I mentioned it when the Bears picked Roquan...  if you want these guys to roam sideline to sideline, you need the bodies to keep them clean up front.  'Quan ended up in a great situation having Hicks and Goldman in front of him, as a result he looks great.  

Glen Logan ( who looked 'meh' when I watched him next to Neil Ferrall) possibly making this roster as a rookie isn't some testament to good scouting and finding diamonds in the rough.    It's a consequence of allowing a glaring weakness at one of your position groups.

 

Well said!  Looks like we're on the exact same page.

[Flugel]

15 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I won't even begin to know how they determine most of their grades, it's a little too "inside baseball" for me, but does it seem like it is somewhat subjective - along the lines of ice skating grades? Just seems really, really difficult to grade guys in the trenches.

No it's not like grading male figure skaters.  Yeah, they don't give much to work with on the radio shows with that Mary Kay.  

[tiamat63]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

No it's not like grading male figure skaters.  

 

 I've been wracking my mind around PFF's QB grades for the last couple days.  Trying to understand how they come up with some of the things they do.  Half make sense, the other half are wildly confusing.  

 Then it dawned on me, perhaps their grading scale is easily manipulated (unintentionally) by result more-so than results vs play structure.

 Nobody is going to argue that Corey Coleman put up numbers at Baylor.   But I remember watching 4 of his games after he was announced as the Browns pick and seeing a couple important things...

- The quality of opposing DB's

- Offensive structure that was highly beneficial for his role, making life incredibly easy for him. (WR speaking, I also remember mentioning Corey owed Art Briles his signing bonus because of it) As a result, his grades can be artificially inflated because of this.   

 

 I think it may be even more so for the case for QB's because, let's say Baker (who I'll use as the example only because he has been our QB for 4 years and the subject of most of the controversy) has a design where he messes up his reads deep to short, still completes the intermediate throw and moves the offense.   Follow me on this, because I'm trying to not be confusing.     You want to give the play a positive grade, because obviously he made the throw and completion and the conversion.   But let's say the downfield throw was a home run shot that would have most likely been a touchdown, and the coaches have it drawn up because of the favorable down, distance, score and personnel.      I don't think PFF has a grade, or to the point, a curve in which they can grade, against hypothetical throws and how that lack of execution may have a greater effect on the game.  Because of that, individual plays end up being more focused as a net positive in a simple pro/con, as opposed to having to account for the whole body of work and understand it's an ecosystem. 

I hinted at that in the 2022 Prospects thread... grading plays in a vacuum.  I'm finding that to be incredibly difficult to do for QB's.   

 

Like I said, I would LOVE to pick the mind of one of their guys just to verse myself in their process and how (or if) they continue to refine it.  

[Flugel]

7th round pick Isaiah Thomas (#58) had himself quite a game. Wow!  The DTs weren't as bad as I worried they'd be. That said, whenever their pad heights got too high - they got driven back.  I saw this on 1 occasion with Winfrey. I also saw it with Elliott in one of the first 2 series.  I'm guessing/hoping they will land some late cuts/practice squad guys from teams deeper at DT.  Jedrick Wills wasn't quite as disappointing as I previously posted.  

We'll start to get a better idea about guys in the next 2 games.

[mjp28]

6 hours ago, Flugel said:

7th round pick Isaiah Thomas (#58) had himself quite a game. Wow!  The DTs weren't as bad as I worried they'd be. That said, whenever their pad heights got too high - they got driven back.  I saw this on 1 occasion with Winfrey. I also saw it with Elliott in one of the first 2 series.  I'm guessing/hoping they will land some late cuts/practice squad guys from teams deeper at DT.  Jedrick Wills wasn't quite as disappointing as I previously posted.  

★  We'll start to get a better idea about guys in the next 2 games  <----  the 2022 season for CLE !

Let's hope the next 2 games  really show some good progress,  the 2022 season might be right there.

C'mon running game set up whatever passing attack the BROWNS might have this season.  Well at least it will be.....interesting. 

GO BROWNS,  can't wait. 

[TexasAg1969]

7 hours ago, Flugel said:

7th round pick Isaiah Thomas (#58) had himself quite a game. Wow!  The DTs weren't as bad as I worried they'd be. That said, whenever their pad heights got too high - they got driven back.  I saw this on 1 occasion with Winfrey. I also saw it with Elliott in one of the first 2 series.  I'm guessing/hoping they will land some late cuts/practice squad guys from teams deeper at DT.  Jedrick Wills wasn't quite as disappointing as I previously posted.  

We'll start to get a better idea about guys in the next 2 games.

I agree on Isaiah Thomas. 2 sacks to me is a keeper even if it is a pre-season game. He's quick off the line and gets around people.